@OP: In a word, yes. 

People are expecting GW2 to be the holy grail of gaming, but I am actually expecting to see a lot more people complaining about the gameplay when it first releases than I'm expecting to see rave reviews, for just the reasons you mentioned. There's a lot less hand holding, there's more focus on team combat, no questing system, ravenous pvp using mechanics people aren't used to (targetting ground and world rather than person), etc., and it's all things people aren't used to. The success of games like WoW and SWToR are as good an example as any that people, as much as they complain, like things easy and familiar.

I don't think GW2 is going to be a huge success right out of the box. It'd be nice, but I sort of doubt it. I think a LOT of people are going to buy it, and only a fraction of them will stick with it at first. But because they'll already own the box, and chances are they'll have a friend that plays it, they'll keep coming back even though it's not their main game. They'll get used to the mechanics, gradually open up to it's unique gameplay, and the game will begin to pick up before steadying at a decent number. That's my prediction, anyway.

Warriors that whip out bows and become archers.

Archers that whip out axes and become warriors.

Necromancers with whole builds centered around melee weapons.

Guardians. Period.

Mesmers with greatswords.

Engineers with all of the above and more.

I'm confused where the lack of hybrid comes in.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by toddze

Players are a lot more inclined to look back at a game if they dont have to re-sub. GW1 is proof of that.

More, but how much more?  So much more that the game doesn't need to worry about retention at all?  I think that's only true of some players, but no idea how many.

This is true, but I could apply what you just said to your initial post and it would be just as true. You don't know that "a lot of players" avoid a game once they've moved on entirely. 

 

Hence the question mark.  I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm trying to get some discussion going here, because its something I'm curious about.

Yeah I get what you're saying, but as none of us are privy to those numbers, you can only go by the trend and past experiences. Even companies who give out active player numbers tend to bloat, exaggerate and twist just what their retention is, so I'd take those numbers with a grain of salt. Just the same, F2P games and GW1's B2P model didn't have problems with retention or, if they did/do, it hasn't affected profits. F2P gaming probably makes more money than P2P these days unless you have WoW's numbers, which none this side of the ocean do.

So question for you, are you really worried about sub retention, or are you more concerned that without it developers will let content stagnate? Whether or not GW2 will end up a ghost town remains to be seen, but many past P2P MMOs will show you that that has nothing to do with what people are paying and more with what they are paying ~for~. If it's content, you have even less reason to worry since offering content is the only way for them to make money, so I'm pretty sure they'll all but throw it at us at a reasonable schedule. I'm sure they do indeed want a "thriving" game and offering new and repeatable content is how they aim to create that.

As for the endgame thing you mentioned briefly in your first post, the point isn't so much that GW2 has no "endgame" - a term coined by people that have exhausted the content of the game and no longer get any benefit from it thus must be given something else to do - but rather that the game isn't supposed to end. If the entire game is as doable at cap as it is as a noob, that seems like a lot more reasons than people have ever had before to continue playing.

Try Kabod Online. I don't know much about it except the "controversy" I read when the game was first being localized (there's nudity and armor gradually breaks off as you are fighting) so I don't know if it's actually any good. But a friend of mine is really enjoying herself in the game, has been trying to get me to play, but open PvP really isn't my thing.

Originally posted by 77lolmac77

Laughing-Man your argument is valid, and I dont generalize things often, but if everyone was gay how would the human race repopulate? You cannot argue that being gay IS different from the normal behavior of animals. {mod edit}Personally id say my viewpoint is about the best compromise the gay community can hope for.

 

Considering how ridiculously overpopulated this world is going to be in just the next 20 years, the world could probably do with a bit more "pink."

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by toddze

Players are a lot more inclined to look back at a game if they dont have to re-sub. GW1 is proof of that.

 

More, but how much more?  So much more that the game doesn't need to worry about retention at all?  I think that's only true of some players, but no idea how many.

This is true, but I could apply what you just said to your initial post and it would be just as true. You don't know that "a lot of players" avoid a game once they've moved on entirely. It really depends on why they left the game in the first place. If they didn't like it, they have no reason to go back, sure. But if they left just because they ran out of things they wanted to do, they're inclined to go back to the game when the game is updated. I don't play GW1 constantly, but I went back and bought and played every expansion when they debuted, and I've been going back to play all of the recent updates to the game as well. Once I complete them, I stop playing again.

I do this with every game I like. Champions Online has a new expansion/storyline, I go play it, then I ignore the game again. City of Heroes got Incarnate, I went back, got my incarnate maxed on my main, then ignore it again. Dragon Nest, I've done everything I can short of gear grind (which I hate, so I don't do), so I quit, but everytime there's a level cap increase or new dungeon, I go back and play again until I've worn it out, then move on again. So on, and so forth. I'm betting people will do the game with GW2

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by warmaster670

and making it with there tools doesnt give them ownership over your ideas, it just doesnt, its a fact.

 

And also, i did look up Dota allstars, and funny thing, not a damn thing about vlizzard owning it, seems like the kind of info youd find on there wiki page.

 

Ill say it again, just because you make a mod with someones mod tools, DOESNT give them the right to the name or content.

By that logic you cant make mods for any established IPs, since blizzard would then own the trademarks for those.

"DOTA All-stars" does not claim ownership of DOTA, just says this is a version of DOTA, trying to claim the name DOTA2 implies ownership of DOTA and that DOTA2 is a sequal in same way, and the only way you can make a sequal is to have owned the original.

Exactly. That's what people aren't getting. Blizz isn't trying to own DoTA, they're trying to prevent someone else from doing so. That people are actually irked that Blizz is essentially fighting for them against another corporation's greed just goes to show how quick they are to bash Blizz for anything to do whether or not there's actual merit.

And if they dont own it, what right do they have trying to prevent someone else from doing it?

 

People are irked because blizzards trying to stop someone from owning something blizzard doesnt own, therefore has no right to try and deny someone else.

Dear God. Pay attention. Blizzard doesn't own it. NEITHER DOES VALVE. Valve is trying to own something built by a community of people. Blizzard isn't, because they recognise they don't own it. One is trying to leave the community alone. The other is trying to fuck them up the ass. Is it computing yet?

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by warmaster670

and making it with there tools doesnt give them ownership over your ideas, it just doesnt, its a fact.

 

And also, i did look up Dota allstars, and funny thing, not a damn thing about vlizzard owning it, seems like the kind of info youd find on there wiki page.

 

Ill say it again, just because you make a mod with someones mod tools, DOESNT give them the right to the name or content.

By that logic you cant make mods for any established IPs, since blizzard would then own the trademarks for those.

"DOTA All-stars" does not claim ownership of DOTA, just says this is a version of DOTA, trying to claim the name DOTA2 implies ownership of DOTA and that DOTA2 is a sequal in same way, and the only way you can make a sequal is to have owned the original.

Exactly. That's what people aren't getting. Blizz isn't trying to own DoTA, they're trying to prevent someone else from doing so. That people are actually irked that Blizz is essentially fighting for them against another corporation's greed just goes to show how quick they are to bash Blizz for anything to do whether or not there's actual merit.

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/blizzard-dota-name-should-belong-to-the-community/

Mike Morhaime spoke about the issue, and I think this is where people are getting confused and defensive. Blizzard wants to make "Blizzard-DoTA" (hope that's not the final name) not "DoTA 2", meaning "DoTA" itself should be left as a community term as it was developed by a community. By contrast, Valve wants to do the opposite, and trademark the "DoTA" name itself. It doesn't have the right to. I sort of doubt that if Valve did the same as Blizzard and instead named it something equally stupid like "Valve-DoTA," Blizzard would be going through the trouble.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

A lot of you aren't reading this correctly. Blizzard is actually, most likely, the good guy here. They're not suing to own the DoTA trademark, they're suing to PREVENT Valve from doing so. DoTA is a project that's community-based and bigger than either of those companies and thus affects FAR more than just Valve and Blizzard products. It's in everyone's best interest that Blizzard wins their suit. Valve are the greedy bastards trying to own something they don't.

Blizzard is claiming there trying to trick people into thinking blizzards involved in DOTA2, which is BS, no where have they ever gave the impression that blizzard had anything to do with it, or endorsed it, how is that being the good guy?

I'm having a little trouble deciphering what you were trying to write here but if you're saying what I think you are, you're incorrect. Blizzard is associated with DOTA because DOTA is a mod made from a Blizzard game and Blizzard tools. But Blizzard never cared, in some ways it was met with their blessing. But now Valve is trying to trademark something they don't have a right to, and that's when the game has changed. Valve doesn't have to imply Blizzard has anything to do with their product, because it does by design. DOTA 2 is made with a new engine, it's its own game, which it's trying to trademark the new game with the game of the first one, which is made using Blizzard's technology, in order to cement its popularity in the community. It's very clear that it at the very, VERY least, falls in a legal grey area.

What Valve should have done is trademark their new game under a new name. But they know very well there will be many people that will play and worship DOTA 2 based just on the name, because of their experience with the first game.

maybe a fool would assume that something with the name DoTA has something to do with blizzard, but rational epopel wouldnt, since blizzard didnt create DoTA.

 

Just because someone makes a mod for your game, doesnt mean you have any right to the mod, if that was so why would valve have hired the counterstrike modders? they could have just taken the name counterstrike, since they owned it since it was a mod for there game.

The problem is you're commenting on something you don't understand. Blizzard didn't create DoTA, just like Bethesda didn't make most of the Oblivion/Skyrim mods that are most popular, but it was made with those tools and their game. That's THEIR technology, whether or not you want to accept it. Also, Blizzard does indeed own DOTA-Allstars. Look it up. As for your Counterstrike argument, it's irrelevant. That a company didn't do something doesn't mean they couldn't. There are plenty of hackers that will never see jail time because the people they hacked have instead decided to hire them. I'm not saying modding is the same as hacking at all, but it's still a relevant analogy.

Again, use of modding tools/game engine only limits sale of said mod for profit within the engine creator's consent. It's the same as if someone were to make a game using the CryEngine, Unreal engine, Source engine, etc. You only need consent if you plan to actually sell the game if it uses someone else's game engine and/or assets.

The trademark of the mod is still fully within the ownership of the creators of said mod, and Blizzard has no claim to it beyond the fact that they've partially squatted on it and profited off of other people's work.

No, using an engine created as a platform for creating new games is not the same as using modding tools of an existing game to create a new one. And even if it was, there is still licensing involved in all of the above. When you develop a game using one of the engines you mentioned, you are licensing the use of that engine and in doing so, the creators of the engine give up certain rights in exchange for profit from the people that buy use of it. So even using your own example, Blizzard is still in the right, because Blizzard is clearly saying they never gave up any rights and were both licensing and promoting DoTA under their company's banner. So in the end, it's still not the same thing.

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

A lot of you aren't reading this correctly. Blizzard is actually, most likely, the good guy here. They're not suing to own the DoTA trademark, they're suing to PREVENT Valve from doing so. DoTA is a project that's community-based and bigger than either of those companies and thus affects FAR more than just Valve and Blizzard products. It's in everyone's best interest that Blizzard wins their suit. Valve are the greedy bastards trying to own something they don't.

Blizzard is claiming there trying to trick people into thinking blizzards involved in DOTA2, which is BS, no where have they ever gave the impression that blizzard had anything to do with it, or endorsed it, how is that being the good guy?

I'm having a little trouble deciphering what you were trying to write here but if you're saying what I think you are, you're incorrect. Blizzard is associated with DOTA because DOTA is a mod made from a Blizzard game and Blizzard tools. But Blizzard never cared, in some ways it was met with their blessing. But now Valve is trying to trademark something they don't have a right to, and that's when the game has changed. Valve doesn't have to imply Blizzard has anything to do with their product, because it does by design. DOTA 2 is made with a new engine, it's its own game, which it's trying to trademark the new game with the game of the first one, which is made using Blizzard's technology, in order to cement its popularity in the community. It's very clear that it at the very, VERY least, falls in a legal grey area.

What Valve should have done is trademark their new game under a new name. But they know very well there will be many people that will play and worship DOTA 2 based just on the name, because of their experience with the first game.

maybe a fool would assume that something with the name DoTA has something to do with blizzard, but rational epopel wouldnt, since blizzard didnt create DoTA.

 

Just because someone makes a mod for your game, doesnt mean you have any right to the mod, if that was so why would valve have hired the counterstrike modders? they could have just taken the name counterstrike, since they owned it since it was a mod for there game.

The problem is you're commenting on something you don't understand. Blizzard didn't create DoTA, just like Bethesda didn't make most of the Oblivion/Skyrim mods that are most popular, but it was made with those tools and their game. That's THEIR technology, whether or not you want to accept it. Also, Blizzard does indeed own DOTA-Allstars. Look it up. As for your Counterstrike argument, it's irrelevant. That a company didn't do something doesn't mean they couldn't. There are plenty of hackers that will never see jail time because the people they hacked have instead decided to hire them. I'm not saying modding is the same as hacking at all, but it's still a relevant analogy.

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

A lot of you aren't reading this correctly. Blizzard is actually, most likely, the good guy here. They're not suing to own the DoTA trademark, they're suing to PREVENT Valve from doing so. DoTA is a project that's community-based and bigger than either of those companies and thus affects FAR more than just Valve and Blizzard products. It's in everyone's best interest that Blizzard wins their suit. Valve are the greedy bastards trying to own something they don't.

Blizzard is claiming there trying to trick people into thinking blizzards involved in DOTA2, which is BS, no where have they ever gave the impression that blizzard had anything to do with it, or endorsed it, how is that being the good guy?

I'm having a little trouble deciphering what you were trying to write here but if you're saying what I think you are, you're incorrect. Blizzard is associated with DOTA because DOTA is a mod made from a Blizzard game and Blizzard tools. But Blizzard never cared, in some ways it was met with their blessing. But now Valve is trying to trademark something they don't have a right to, and that's when the game has changed. Valve doesn't have to imply Blizzard has anything to do with their product, because it does by design. DOTA 2 is made with a new engine, it's its own game, which it's trying to trademark the new game with the game of the first one, which is made using Blizzard's technology, in order to cement its popularity in the community. It's very clear that it at the very, VERY least, falls in a legal grey area.

What Valve should have done is trademark their new game under a new name. But they know very well there will be many people that will play and worship DOTA 2 based just on the name, because of their experience with the first game.

Aion wasn't a success in the West, that's why it went F2P in Europe and it probably won't be long until it goes F2P in the states either. There were huge quest gaps in leveling, everything was heavily RNG-based and it was a huge grind. That's all with the Korean market in mind, which is why it's doing well over there. I'm told it's improved a bit since then but I'm good to avoid games so fixated on RNG.

Also as far as I know neither Gameforge or Frogster are partners of NCSoft. I could be wrong, but I've never heard that before.

A lot of you aren't reading this correctly. Blizzard is actually, most likely, the good guy here. They're not suing to own the DoTA trademark, they're suing to PREVENT Valve from doing so. DoTA is a project that's community-based and bigger than either of those companies and thus affects FAR more than just Valve and Blizzard products. It's in everyone's best interest that Blizzard wins their suit. Valve are the greedy bastards trying to own something they don't.

That review basically mirrors how I felt and what I've been saying about the game. It's not bad, especially for Curt's first foray into gaming, but "uninspired" is a perfect word for it. The combat is absolutely phenomenal, I love it, and I love the leveling system and the capacity for customization on gear, stats and skills. It's just the content of the game itself that's lacking.

I didn't have to buy it, fortunate since the demo didn't leave me with the impression it was worth $60. A friend did, and I've been playing using his account. My initial review was a 6.5, but I think I'd give it somewhere between that and a 7 (on a scale of 1-10, 5 bare-bones average) now that I've played through the main storyline. The problem is all of that is because of the combat and leveling. I stopped reading the quests quickly in, they were cliche and boring, the characters were uninteresting, the hero is your typical silent amnesiac...

Basically, for as much as there was to do in the game, I wasn't really motivated or interested in doing any of it. I felt like I'd had enough pretty quickly. And those treasure chest mini games were a pain in the ass. I died more to warded chests than monsters.

When I finished Skyrim, I continued exploring the world. Buggiest game there ever was, and I still wanted to explore every cave and complete every quest. Same with games like Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect. All of those games got multiple playthroughs for me, not just to complete every quest and talk to every person but to explore both good and evil options. KoA was too busy trying to be everyone else to immerse me in its own unique gaming world, about halfway through I just wanted to rush to the end, finish the game and forget about it.

Originally posted by rojo6934

Originally posted by Bunks

Originally posted by rojo6934

the guy who made this post on the swtor forums is a total moron.... on his examples there are some of the  numbers that are not included or have anything to do with swtor or its release / patches... he just made that up, mixed the numbers and put it in that order to form the words.... what a jackazz....try harder LOL

are you even alive in there?

dont know what you mean, sorry

He's referring to the fact that it was clearly a tongue-in-cheek joke and you took it seriously.

Yall are late to the party.

This isn't meant to sound cruel, but it might. GW2 will not be wanting for the people that are 'no monk = no buy.' A dedicated support profession is a throwback to a gameplay style GW2 is trying to avoid and in doing so, has drawn a different crowd. Its playerbase is all but established at this point, I don't think it needs a bunch of people clamouring for something it was never meant to have in the first place. Wouldn't be the first time developers caved into a demand only to ruin their game, and I'd like to avoid that even if it means some players are permanently alienated.

Not as if there aren't already plenty of games out there that cater to the healer in all of us. You have one game out of hundreds trying to do something different. No reason to try and make it like everything else.

Originally posted by BassmanJ

Why would this matter when most of the characters "voices" dont work at all now?

 

That's what I wondered. Currently all the heroes' "voices" consist of are grunts, squeels and fart noises. I can only assume they're considering adding actual dialogue to the characters, maybe during battle? That could be kind of cute.

There was just news about D3 revamping a system pretty recently. I don't think they're playing chicken, I think Blizzard is still genuinely working on the game and refining it and GW2 only just entered its beta phases. It doesn't go from beta to release overnight.

I think you're just looking a little too hard.

Originally posted by DeaconX

I guess time will tell.  Little birds from beta thus far sing a different song.

I heard nothing but good things from the Beta of Conan, so I don't give that a lot of stock. I still think it's a bit early to claim TSW is going to be a failure.  That it's from Funcom is enough to make me wait a while before buying it, but I think the unique gameplay will give it an audience even if there are some issues right out of the box. Guess we'll see.