Originally posted by JJMicromegas

To further prove my point what if I told you guys that I have a game that has incredible depth, perfectly balanced PvP, no lag, and every time you play it is guaranteed to be different. That game is chess. But we are talking about video games where graphics are the medium. There is no gameplay without graphics, they are not mutually exclusive, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to judge a game based on it's graphics among other things (emphasis on among other things).

I would point out that millions of people play chess via their computers and don't care about the graphics as the gameplay is good.  Yes people do want a balance but gameplay and graphics are not interdependant.  Overall experience and graphics are but overall experience is not gameplay. 

I think people are using the term gameplay to mean different things.

Originally posted by Shannia 

 

LOTRO comes close.  Which game are you referring to where you can have both?  I've played nearly all and from what I see, it is one or the other.  Just let me know which game you are referring to.

 

I agree, until someone provide us with a mmorpg to play which has both I will be looking for games with good gameplay.

I think a lot of complaints are down to either bad game design or the game being unfinished.  I think people have a right to complain if they have bought something like this and it was advertised as something else.

As a side point I think devs are leaving themselves vulnerable to criticism.  Firstly they are releasing unfinished games and secondly they are trying to please too large a group of people and therefore making watered down games.  The mmorpg market contains a diverse group of people who want different things, instead of trying please them all they should make mmorpgs catered to specific groups and advertise them as such.

What you are describing is essentially the same as offering shares in the development company but without it being listed.  I think people would want part ownership of the company, voting rights and dividends on any future revenue in exchange for their money.

Originally posted by Varking

Makes you sort of wonder why those who claim gameplay always > graphics aren't playing UO anymore...

A lot of people can't play 1 game forever without it getting boring.  3d environments can provide a much better gameplay experience than 2d if done well regardless of graphics.  Why should people have to settle for 2d games? 

What they want is 3d games with good gameplay and nice graphics.  I can't see a problem with people wanting this.  Those saying gameplay > graphics are not saying that they do not want nice graphics, of course they do, they are saying that gameplay is more important than graphics. 

If they had a choice between a game with good graphics and poor gameplay or a game with good gameplay and poor graphics then they would choose the good gameplay.  If a game can provide both then that's great.  

Originally posted by JJMicromegas

I think you guys are missing my point. Gameplay is the experience that you get from playing that game, graphics are part of that experience and gameplay and graphics don't have to be mutually exclusive. You can have a

Someone mentioned AoC, and in fact I play AoC now and the graphics and overall feel of the world is what helped me to immerse myself in the game. Yes the game is lacking some things, it's not perfect so let's not debate that here. But take Warhammer for example, I couldn't stand to play it because the world looked and felt very cliche and I just couldn't get immersed into it.

I don't agree that graphics are an essential part of the overall game experience though.  For instance I would give this game a 1 graphics but 9 for gameplay and 9 overall if I was rating it.  It would it score higher than a lot of mmorpgs for me as it provides a much more fun gameplay experience and more replayability.

www.handdrawngames.com/DesktopTD/Game.asp

If I was posed the question of whether I would rather have this as my only game forever or certain mmorpgs this game would be my choice, the graphics suck but the gameplay is good.

Originally posted by SignusM

The things Aventurine are doing are things that games from 2001 have been able to pull off. Funcom, Blizzard, Turbine, don't WANT to make this kind of game, because the money is making cheap EQ/WoW clones. Go back to 2001 to Dark Age of Camelot. It had about 8 siege engines, boiling oil, siege towers, naval combat, destructable keeps, 500 man battles. Tech has come a long way since then, but no one bothers to make games like that. 

Saying it isn't possible because Blizzard hasn't done it is just plain stupid. There are no claims Darkfall has  made that are outlandish. 

 When you have people claiming that the DDOS attack on Aventurine was fabricated to cover up the fact that the game doesn't exist, yeah, those are trolls. 

 

I would not say that other companies didn't want to make this kind of game because they wanted to make a cheap game, although you probably realise this.  I would say that it was a matter of priorities, my guess would be that with current technology you cannot have some of these features and also have what other devs would consider an acceptable standard in other aspects of the game.  A lot of these features are obviously technically feasible, if the graphics were 2d or 3d vector graphics nobody would even question it, it's just a matter of how much you are willing to cut away from other game aspects in order to achive it.

I would say that there very little correlation between a games graphics and how good the gameplay is.  It is nice to have good graphics but it is not very important to how enjoyable a game is.  It is sometimes the case that games that have relatively good graphics have also had a lot of man hours put into ensuring the gameplay is good as well.    

I think you are talking about what is functionally possible in 2d and 3rd environments and general game design, not graphics.  You could make a 3d mmorpg in black and white with stickmen that had amazing gameplay if the interface was responsive and it was satisfying to play ect.  It probably would not have enough eye candy to encourage people to buy it but the gameplay could still surpass all other mmorpgs even if the overall experience was lacking.

Originally posted by zaxtor99

---

 

Dude, if you read my OP and that isn't enough proof to you that Tasos Flambouras is deceitful as hell, there isn't anything in this world I could say or do to prove that to you.

To me, you sound like a man that falls off a boat in the middle of a big lake drowning in water, and yelling at your buddies in the lake "Get me more water! I am dying of no water! ..Need more water!" as you splash around frantically.

Maybe it's just me tho. Maybe I am just too jaded. Who knows.

- Zaxx

Ok thats fine, it seems to me that your standards of proof are nowhere near what I would consider to be acceptable.  Personally if I had made the OP I would have chosen much softer language, nobody could argue that information from Aventurine is unreliable.  

Originally posted by zaxtor99

---

 

Oh my.

Is this actually what you have to tell yourself to keep your faith in Tasos? Over and over and over and over and over and over and over (continued up-teen thousand times) over all the completely false BS he has spouted over the years.

So.. Tasos, the Associate Producer working with this project for OVER FIVE YEARS now, and he just "didn't know" that what he was saying was completely untrue huh?

..He actually believed himself that the game as feature complete and ready for launch" back on December 4, 2008 huh?

Hehe.

Oh my. No wonder you believe everything this guy says if you can actually tell yourself that about every BS lie he tells and actually believe it yourself. You BS yourself more then he BS's you.

Wow.

Just wow.

Dude, serious... have you even read my OP here, or just been throwing out blind attacks at me as soon as you read enough to know I wasn't praising your game? You REALLY need to read my OP before you attack me or my OP. You're making yourself look pretty silly to anyone else here who actually did read it.

- Zaxx

I have read your entire post.  Seriously all I am asking for is some proof of deceit.  I am not attacking you or claiming that Tasos is truthful, I am just asking in the interest of fairness that you provide some proof to back up your claim.  After all you are claiming it is fact, and facts can normally be proven to be true.  No matter how long a list of somebodies previous statements that turned out to be inaccurate  that you can produce it is not proof that they are deceitful, it is only circumstantial.

I don't know what all this "keeping my faith in Tasos" malarkey is about as I only ever suggested to people that they "wait and see", that is hardly defending the game and I still stand by this.

Please don't reply with more of the I must believe everything Tasos say as I don't agree with you nonsense, just show some proof or is that too much to ask?

I don't see why this is taking multiple responses tbh, you either can or you cannont.

Originally posted by fyerwall 

Well if he knew it wasnt ready, why would he post that it was?
 

Isnt saying something while knowing it to be untrue called a Lie?

And if you say something as fact when you have no clue about it not called a lie as well?

Lie:

1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.
 

Yes I agree, but the point is Zaxxtor99 has not shown proof as he claims that Tasos knew it was a lie, despite how obvious it may or may not be.  To be honest I highly doubt that he could produce such proof.  I am just asking for fairness for him to hold himself to the same standards he is expecting of others.

Edit: His meaning is obviously the first 2 as he is using it in conjuction with deceit. 

Originally posted by zaxtor99

---

 

I won't ask you to read my whole OP man. Obviously that is way over your abilities. So I'll narrow it down to just ONE thing. Tasos, as he stated on Dec 4, 2008 said that Darkfall was "FEATURE COMPLETE and ready for launch now".. on that date of Dec 4. He said it was tested and ready for launch. Over two months ago as of now.

OBVIOUSLY IT WASN'T as they are still patching it like mad and it is missing tons of promised features still.

Tell me please how this was not untruthful in your eyes. Please explain to me how you see that as "honest" in any way, shape, or form. And attacking me doesn't help your cause here.

Just one question since you seem to think Tasos is so great and such an honest and wonderful guy.

And let's refrain from using words like "holy", "trust", "faith", and "Oh Mighty" huh? Those big spiritual words won't help you explain just this one simple question.

- Zaxx

Show me your proof that Tasos knew that the game was not ready for launch when that post was made.  If you cannot do this, as I suspect, I suggest you stop labeling it as a fact.  Don't try pulling those fanboy / cultist cards as I have not to my recollection said that I believe he was telling the truth,  I am merely asking you to back your statement up.  

So are you going to back it up or just prevaricate?

If you cannot I suggest that you retract your claim and just state that he is an unreliable source of information.

Originally posted by TeranHawkins

Actually yeah....how about an IP you actually give two cents about

I don't give 2 cents for any IP.....   I want good gameplay, GAMEPLAY!!

Originally posted by girlgeek

^^^Best post in this thread, other than the OP's. 

Although I truly WANT Darkfall to be a success, there is just no way in hell to argue against FACTS and common sense.

Me...I'm just waiting as patiently as humanly possible.  Anything Tasos says, is pretty much a moot issue to me, because I don't trust the guy any further than I can throw him.  For me, it is impossible to judge this game in any way, shape, or form based only on information that is

(a) a supposed beta leak ....even if it's a real example from beta...that's not the release quality (I'm being generous in my assumption here),

(b) anything coming directly from Tasos, because he's been proven to be either an outright liar, or exaggerator, or

(c) anything that a rabid fan or rabid hater says, because both are fairly irrational and lacking common sense.  (Incidentally, the OP posted facts.  Restating facts is not akin to being a hater, and those are things that can be validated and trusted.)

I will make my own personal decisions about DF, as a GAME, if and WHEN we actually play it.  I've ALREADY made my decision about Tasos.

I would disagree that I have seen facts that Tasos is a liar or deceitful as stated in the post title, unless Zaxtor99 can provide some proof of this such an internal memo saying something to the effect of "yes we know beta won't start until 2009 but tell the fans it's going to be 2005" then making such a claim is just speculation.  Asking to provide proof of this is obviously unreasonable but I feel that he should be made to back it up as it's a a very strong accusation, although it would probably be better for him to not say this in the first place.  Making claims that someone is a liar does not seem like fair play to me unless evidence is produced.  This is why he makes himself look like a hater rather than a skeptic to some people.

Come off it Zaxtor99, the only people who would agree with your definition of vaporware are those who have previously said that DF is vaporware and are now seeking to retrospectively change their intended meaning.  I don't care what it says in wikipedia as that is not the common definition of how people use this term and you know that very well.

It is quite clear that people who have accused DF of being vaporware have done so implying that it will never release, they have yet to be proven wrong as it has not released. 

This kind of skullduggery makes you guilty of exactly the same kind of behaviour as that which you are complaining about.

How much it changes the industry will come down to one thing - how much money it makes or loses.

It has only cost 10m Euro's so if it makes a decent return then I expect it will turn some heads. When I say a decent return I mean in relation to what the game has cost not in comparison to other mmorpgs.  If it loses money then how much of loss it makes in comparison to how much it cost will also be looked at. 

Nobody likes to lose money, if a game costs 40m+ and loses 10m then that is significantly worse for whoever is paying for it than a game that has cost 10m and loses 5m.  

Either way unless it's a complete disaster I think this game and others will encourage bigger lables to look at lower budget games.  With several low budget games last year winning major awards and making very large profits the big boys must be taking note, in fact we know they are already with EA publically expressing admiration for Jagex (runescape) and setting Digital Illusions (Battlefield) to work making browser games.      

I prefer original lore as devs often use third party ip's (or their own ip's even) as an excuse to make poor games and then sell them off ip alone. 

I don't think the recession will have a very large impact on mmorpg subscriptions.  I predict that it might slow the growth in the total number of subs in all games but I doubt it will send it into retreat.  I think what is more worrying is that there might be less games than we would want in about 4 years time as small devs are probably finding it very hard to get funding and large devs are cutting back on projects and their workforce both of which mean there are less games starting their development cycle at present. 

Originally posted by Jakeadunk

---

 

Funny to me that WoW when it launch was in the US and Europe.

WoW lauched in the US a few months before Europe.

Originally posted by floppyface

I get my information by living in Australia and having a BA with a major in Pol Sci. Your friend probably doesn't know what he's talking about. Australians aren't a particularly bright bunch.

 

Case closed.

My friend is a surgeon and he did only become an Australian citizen about a week ago, hehe, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt regarding not being particularly bright.  I think sooner or later this will happen in a lot of countries as it's mainly being billed as a child protection measure.  I can't see free for all internet lasting forever.