Uthgard, google it. Yes, its origins.

Originally posted by Suraknar

The reasons stated as "mistakes" are not relevant.

1 - First 10 levels too easy in Warhammer.

That was really irelevant, I only did... I leveled all of ....

People expected....

 

2 - "While guild leveling was an important element, players still had very little reason to play together unless they joined a PvP scenario"

Pardon? I mean ... I do not think ...

3 - Mail System...
 

I came back to WAR ...  I could not play ...  Expansion just killed it for me, they added ...  it was disgusting for me...

I can not understand ... I have been playing many .... and I never ...

4- Economy

I could not disagree more ...

I simply think  ... I think Mythic's mistake ...

----

That being said, and while the prospect of a DAoC2 seems very exciting I am worried that same mistake maybe made in the process...

If you want to beat WoW, you have to come up with something radically different than it, that is very thoughtfully prepared to be different and please at the same time.

IMHO 

 

I just want to point out with these limited quotes of your writing : hey, really fu c king scientific and objective views here! I think this, I disagree with that, and then generalize that you are "the people", Mythic fucked up and their professionals designers cant even identify problems in a product they made. Its your personal view and you've got the right for it, but seriously should rethink these "I wasn't pleased" generalizations.

"That being said, I'm worried that the same mistake of not pleasing me may be made again"... =)))

Again the casual reference of "beating WoW", but this time together with suggestion to be radically different (wich game in topic already is). Interesting, because games that aren't similar, aren't competing against each other, the target customer / market is not the same.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

I have not played DAoC but do you trust Mythic can deliver DAoC2?

See how badly they messed WAR which came after DAoC. With all their experience with DAoC they still managed to mess up badly with WAR.

What is worrying is that if  the success of DAoC was down to 3 realms, (if being the operative word here) then Mythic either knew WAR would fail or think they could make it work with two. Either way they failed. Hence putting the success of DAoC 2 in serious doubt.

What was the lag like in DAoC and if it was not bad then why is it so bad in WAR?

Warhammer was already created product, there was not really even an option to make that into a 3 way fight.  So its not compareable directly.

What ever arguments there might be against Mythics DEV teams cabability to produce a product that would please everyone expecting it, the fact remains ,they hold the copyright, and if its really a DAoC, its gonna be Mythic who produces it. I'd be damn glad if someone would rip the idea tho, and make it happen faster and if possible better =)

One has to understand also that DAoC has such a long history and thus so many stages on its past, it was PVE game, it became PVP game, it was new and different at the time, then it became a korean grind for a while, and then eventually it is a niche game for super elites. There was and always will be haters and lovers depending the time phase or aspect the enjoyed. Opinnions will be fiercely defended and attacked, castels will burn, people will die. End result DAoC2 is going to make many people cry, but many people rather cry in Midgard of Hibernia, than in Azeroth =)

Lag in daoc was and is never an issue if your iron was up to date. Infact, its the only game that almost promoted, or atleast was taken into some sort of consideration that you may want to be able to run several instances of it simultaneously. There has always been something in the engine that caused the legendary inc-lag. I would also add that even with the best configuration of any server structure, even with the latest dynamic load distribution methods is going to cause annoying lag on the end user when there is just too much action going on. In DAoC 50 people on screen was not a problem, 200 was already laggy, but still suistainable in relic raids.

DAoC 2 . I'm telling you, who ever studied marketing anywhere, would understand that there is indeed a void full of screaming need, want and unfulfilled desire that could be filled with a product with this name =)

What ever is gonna happen from Mythic related to old daoc, this united mega server with TOA and all the candy, or if they're rolling out Old Frontiers Classic server. Even with the new and very, very sweet looking engine, the days of 9000 polygons on screen and MySQL based engine aint going to roll anymore. Even with 4x 3ghz processors, dual graf cards - top end computer, you're still having inc lag.

While waiting for the realization slowly going into the investors mind, that DAoC2 would sell silvers, golds, platinas and mithrils both sides of all the seas, we got to hang around. My church of choise has been fre esha rds. Still active player base, specially on Uthgard, stripped from all the generally considered "problems". No buffbots, no doubleboxing, no bots, farmers, no addon material. NF_ and _OF. No fees.

Hang around there boys and girls. Make a lot of noise of your wish to have DAoC2, keep the spirit up, eventually someone with the ability to make the right call and big enough title to make it happen will read about it. Infact, I'd do it myself if I'd be given the funding.

Greets to go Mirage, The Chosen, Hibernian Dragonslayers and Golden Age teams in EU Prydwen. I miss you all.

I sumbled upon the following :
http://www.camelotherald.com/news/news_article.php?storyid=3693

"Why am I being charged sales tax on my subscription?

Electronic Arts charges online sales tax for Dark Age of Camelot subscriptions. The reason for this is many U.S. states are implementing taxes on online subscriptions. The tax calculation will be handled using a system provided to us by Vertex."

I tied googling, but as non US recident I'm abit lost of where to go to find this kind of information. I posted and requested more information about this from the Herald, but naturally its going to take time.

Can this be confirmed, can more info be lurked? What states this is going to effect and how much this is?
Seems that EA has made single decission with DAoC to make taxation in that game for customer to be paid, but is this going to be the new trend in games past juvenile age?

Why is not Blizzard talking about this and why this is not discussed at all in relation with WHO?
 

Vanguard started open free trial 2 weeks ago, and since their 6th major patch it has gotten some decent facelift, it could be worth checking out.

WoW and LOTR ofcourse coming up with new patches, which one is more boring I'm not one to say =) Could be interesting timesink both of them, but if you're a new to either, it takes half a year before you're in the end of the linear content.

Eve is getting walking in stations patch/addon soon, before the year is out, so it could get more interesting. Currently in mmorpg.com Eve forums are flooded with manuals how to get into it better. Of course its a bit niche game type, but those manuals really get you going better than the tutorial.

I've decided also give War and AoC some time to mature, jumping into leaking ship is just a bit meh.

You could consider some even older ones too, EQ2? Also free trial, tho level limited. Its grafics at least are up to date, and its quite sweet game if ya like PVE and nature. You could try DAoC, given its not on its golden age anymore, its thriwing on. First 4 addons come free with the trial, and even without the latest grafic engine that ya have to pay for, its grafics are extraordinary good. Serious alternative for War atleast, and its definetly mature candy. AC dinged its 100th patch/addon, it has also changed to be more easily to get into.

Darkfall has started its closed beta invitations, step by step they're moving into more people and towards open beta, but thats ofcourse another serious UO niche game not all may like.

741e + BC if you played since launch.

I would want to see a portable device that would run a proper MMORPG. Have 102 buttons, or atleast 40 for the required proper handling of any non-korean MMORPG character. Have a mouse or similar fast and proper way to move camera, target, aim, and do what in any MMORPG mouse is used for. There is already enough keyboard turners, no more console joysticks needed.

But yes, if you can put that together, I'd pay 150$/€ for that.

Then again, I already have a laptop, and it plays ALL games I want to play.

@ Torak

Just to mention, comparing Mythics DAoC "free level" system to WoW's XP'ing method is a broken comparsion. In DAoC player levels up to 4 different ways since lvl20(-40), Normal XP, Master Levels, Champion Levels and RealmPoints. Levels 1 to 20, which are the ones you gain free after leveling one toon to lvl50 (norm xp), are merely a introduction and tutorial to the game. WoW's whole leveling system is linear normal XP'ing through the whole game up to last levels and there is no 20 level long tutorial.

I also think that you cannot just say something like "the idea of levels" and then leave it there without further explanation. When you have any kind of developement, no matter if its visible or hidden, there is always levels of some sort. For an easy example, "classless skill based MMO" EVE, supposedly has no levels, but then again it has up to 50 levels in certain field of training, clearly differentiated by the "best (item) you can use". Another examples from D&L and Darkfall, no classes no levels, but when you use your blade, you raise in your weaponskill. A bit more difficult, hidden level system, from FPS's like CS & Tribes and alike: There is no obvious levels, but it doesn't take a minute to see who is beginner, who is experienced, who is pro and the max level I guess goes in those who are in top of the ladder playing on TV. As you can clearly see, as long as there is progression, there is numbers, and thus levels.

I do agree with you, that in WoW there is not much of that sweetness RPG we've so learned to like from the single player games, but please bury in mind you cannot just argue from that point only that it would be whole MMO genres problem, it merely shows your own lack of experience of other games.

[QUOTE]
Now if these games were truely "RPG's" levels would in fact be irrelavent. In fact some of the better RPG's don't even have them.
[/QUOTE]

I want you to come up with a single game name with RPG label but no progression that can be considered as level. Progression is never irrelevant in RPG, its all about it.

Problem with your statement as opinnion is that you dont realize that the problem is not leveling, levels or even the grind. Its merely the linear shallow content given to make it juicy enough for your RPG needs. In your eyes there is only 1 XP bar, and maeby some irrelevant secondary way to level something else up, and that just doesn't simply cut the cookie for you. If the same leveling system would be divided into multitude of experience bars, one for each thing you "choose to do", you'll feel more of that freedom and less forced to a linear pipe of grind, but in the end its exactly the same leveling process in the backround.

My personal opinnion to this is that there is just different kinds of MMO's, there is linear, book-like, "one you done it, you've done it for good" kind of MMORPG's, and then more broad viewed virtual world like MMORPG's where player chooses the direction and the name of their XP bar, and the content is reliveable many times through dynamic design. Too bad they're not named separately yet, so it would be clear to everyone.

DEV's will never "face it" tho, DEV's do what they're told to do, specially when you're talking about a company whose name someone else might know too. Linear booklike RPG is easier to do, if it has decent story (read IP) behind it, its guaranteed to have playerbase, it has shorter lifespan in the long run and when its developement has ended the company can go to other state of the art projects. Games like this also bring more to the stockholders, as their stock value is easier to estimate and profits are way easier to be made. Game announced (buy) => hype (wait) => launch (sell) => before announce of extension (buy) => hype of extension (wait) =>  launch of it (sell) => profit like Trump. Fighting this engine is like trying to take down a field of invulnerable windmills.

When the ocassional miracle happens and some unknown designer is allowed to do a game of dreams, instead of game of buck$, you'll just have to notice it happening and take the boat before it sails offshore. If you've got any insight clue of how game designing is actually done, you'll instantly notice that is enormosuly harder to do 5 ways of XP in a game than it is to do 1 main leveling system. Creating class free game instantly puts enormous pressure on those who have to figure out how to make it balanced (its sickeningly hard, try it sometime just for kicks). Its not only the mechanics of individual that have to forged to be classless freedom (with still juice RPG) but also every bit of content of every different kind. When eventually a company has this kind of thing on paper, selling marketting idea like this to the buck$ to actually make it, is way harder than just a linear "in and out" type of game. Not only gameworld like that has less revenue possibilities (longer lifespan, no obvious hypespots, less obvious customerbase, bad experience of similar games from the past), it also requires alot more funding to upkeep due its dynamic nature and the way its forced to upkeep with the developement of tech. As you see, linear game with 5 year lifespan, can easily just be closed when it doesn't pay its serverupkeeps anymore and dev can throw out a sequel. In non-linear game like see EVE and its CCP, they have to upgrade the game constantly to keep up with tech developmenet.

Most games that have currently came or are coming out, have mixup of both linear level developmenet and multitude of subleveling systems beyond crafting. As its getting more known bussiness model, its going to be done more too. Still, in Torak's (and mine) case it ends up being the question how "juicy" the RPG is, does it really even out the grinding feeling linear leveling does.

I hope this clears the air around leveling abit for you and others. Its easier to gain results, when you go to the root of the problem and realize what is really the problem.

You could check out the history of Dark & Light, was a promising virtualworld like freedom of choise MMORPG, when you keep developement in mind and go through their homepage, you'll realize how hellish hard it is to do one in high fantasy setup. This game failed to client problems tho and is currently buried (not even servers up), its client was just not stable enough, but its as a game is a good example.
Another similar could be Darkfall, even tho I must say it doesn't have much info anywhere of itself, its a classfree, virtualworld style pvp based MMORPG. Latest 2nd video given out out tells quite alot of how it goes. Its on beta sign up stage now. (Yes, really, after 7 years of waiting)

There is plenty of "juicy" RPG games out already. I would even say GuildWars, as its clearly done as a book that tells a story of great depth. It resembles somewhat a singleplayer RPG game, but has juicy enough RPG (to my opinnion) to make the leveling part unnoticeable.

Its hard to choose, when there is only one name for whole genre, but when you go into it with clear view of what you want, suddnely its easier to make the right selection and stop judging whole genre by "I did what 10 million others did and it didn't fit me" attitude.

More tools :

BaF - Brings a Friend.
Later known as "linked mobs". Mobs that act as group when pulled depending on situation and mob type. Some mobs are naturally loners, like scouts or runners, some mobs are naturally grouped like group of soldiers. Using this approach way deeper than by far has been, dev can easily make content that is meant for soloers, small groups and bigger groups in a simple manner, that also makes sense. And no I dont mean encounters like in WoW 5 man instance, where each wave of mobs is scripted to be killable at certain DPS/HPS rate and not bellow. I mean seriously grouping mobs, that makes open world PvE require grouping.

Buffing
Strenght comes from numbers. But if buffiing is used so, that without those friends of yours in group, you're not more than half of your optimal strenght, then strenght actually is numbers. You may be able to solo that single mob type somewhere, but the real joy comes when you're fully buffed by your friends and you can buff them to their optimals, and through this you access majority of content.

Rewarding
Math is simple to create, where group gains more (xp, money, loot, content) than individual alone. Contribution based math has lately got positive attention, so that healers actually do get their share without dealing a dip of damage. This should be the easiest part.

Open world with borders
Dividing people into different small instances dont drive them to meet each other. Instead creating vast instances where many groups can work together to different directions, would make them meet and eventually work together to get deeper. Dividing PVP into instances and arenas, specially without audience, even furthers same bad cause. Dividing players over vast areas makes them less able to meet each other and work together, area size vs player amount/server should be always a factor. Better to change existing content to bring new things to do, than further divide people into larger area in smaller numbers. See EVE.

Meaning
Make that name and fame actually mean something. This is hard and depends on million factors, but eventually not quite difficult to implement when dev has got their papers in order. Googling guildhouse, bragging rights, guild controlled, ladder tournament and checking couple of youtube videos from top ranking guilds should give the idea.

Ingame community tools
Calendars, flags, suits, cloacks, emblems, tabards, wall carpets, statues, houses, ranking systems, ingame forums, gossip board, meeting locations, guild quests, cause, meaning, goal, reward, dynamicly effecting the world, guildchat, mail system, scout system, raid leading system, for gods sake give guild leaders offices, guild hierarchy, ladders, statistics, place to spend money to sit shows, blingbling, dingdong, community lead events, real resources real markets, crafted items with crafters tags, parades, meetings, influence, mercenaries, alliance systems, group leading interface and tools to preplan moves with a map, VOIP... the list is endless. But if teaming up means one more colorfull chatroom and thats it, I'd quit.

I agree completely with OP that creating communities in game is hugely effected by how the game is designed in the first place. Communities creates the addiction, and addiction creates income. Even I could sell this idea to investors.

When a developer is making a game where does the line end between virtual and real?

Can you be any more unclear please? =)

Do you mean when the developer drowns into psychosis and loses all connection to reality?
Do you mean where the games level of realism should end?
 

What the hell do you mean?

Np mate, I've seen the same link used so many times like a kick to the nuts, when ever this dreamer-designer topic pops up =)

Fantastic, and puts people in their right position.

Then again, indie souls are strong and they'll reach the sky no matter what.

Many oh so many.

Most are ofcourse dreamers, which is always good, healthy and welcome, but even if they dont count to the number, still many.

I think most deliberately sink their ship of dreams when they hit this : http://www.sloperama.com/advice.html

But there is nothing wrong with dreaming. When stuff like realmcrafter gets enough attention and thus grow to actually be worth it, eventually those dreams come true.

Get rid of the automatic virus update system completely.

Rightclick My Computer, click preferences, find Windows Automatic Virus Update and turn if offline. Never, ever put any computer to any network with this (and about 13 other windows automations) online.

Originally posted by SpiritofGame

I am thinking of WAR as DAoC "done right."

Sorry to disappoint you, but no.

I'll meet you in open beta, and show you what I mean, but I can already say that oh noes, you're not even close.

He's saying the true words there.

Dont get your damn hopes up, expect mediocre and you'll not get disappointed.

Hype is there exactly to get the hopes and expectations up sky high and get as many people as possible interested to ensure investments income. It has nothing to do with truth.

Warhammer is not for everyone, and most wont like what they'll experience. You'll see.

I just wait to see the roar of forumtrolls coming down from their mountains in numbers in the end of next month, its gonna be huge roar I tell you =)

Greets from Beta btw. ;)

What comes to the free trial, I've been waiting it for ages.

In the end last month they started to test beta for a trial island, tightened area ment to get upcoming trial people hooked. Also they sent invitation to the old games who have their accounts closed. So the open trial shouldn't be that far away.

Tho as long as I dont get a buddy key, or free trial gets out, I'm not gonna go to this boat. If its the wine the forums say it is, it doesn't get bad if it waits for month or two. So anyone got buddykey? =)

It will run, but you're not going to get the candy out of it.

I have to agree that the largest chokepoint is the memory, WAR has huge load footprint, 2gb DDR2 666mhz doesn't always seem to be enough, specially in PVP and crowded areas.

Thats ofcourse still beta client, which is not (maeby) optimted to its best.

I fail to see how darkfalls idea resembles EVE's offline training for skills.

Assumably, from the information available, in Darkfall system goes something like this.

Player buys the skill he wants from NPC or other player, for example usage of swords, and then trains this by hitting with the sword enoguh to cap the skill. (sounds like wow weaponskills to me). High quantity of skills is available, and no pre-defined class selection limits this, you may choose to make your Wolfgang archer or a caster all the same.

Thing is, your race limits what you can become really good at, like dwarfs aint gonna be the top notch mages, and pencilneck elfs aren't going to be sturdiest soldiers. Also somekind of limitation exists that you cannot become swordwielding selfhealing group-buffing summoner necro. In the end making the whole system just another way to create classes, better tho, but not in any way like EVE.

The additional thingy is that if and when you become high in some certain areas of skills, like magery, you may choose a "prestige class", that gives you certain spells or abilityes otherwise not trainable through the system, but limits your other skills. Forexample the enchanter mage, wich give you spells, takes away your ability of armors and blades. Sounds pretty much like casual classes to me.

This approach tho, is extremely welcome and I liked it the moment I red about it. But in the end line its nothing more than improvement to existing class selection idea. Good one in that.

Gonna have to try the game it seems, few months after launch, to see it doesn't flop like Dark & Light did. So close resemblence if you ask me.

[M]assive dynamic changing world that actually feels like a world and not grafical novel wich is done when last page is read, unless more is written.

[M]ultiplayer that actually means grouping, teaming up, generating communities, competition between them in many ways and pleasing the need to socialize while playing.

[O]nline so that it really means you're connected to a server of thousands of other similar minded people. It has to live, grow and be hooking. Its only a single world to bring together  people, so dont try to sell it for everybody.

[R]oleplay your character, allow through customization and specialization it to represent the player himself. Through its growing become something greater, and make the player really feel they've archieved something within their alternative life. Oh so many things makes this identifying process impossible.

[P]lay, play along, play ball, power play, play with fire. Play time or play fast and loose. Play down, play up and then replay it all. As long as you remember its just a play. play

[G]ame, thus fun.