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All Posts by SlyLoK

All Posts by SlyLoK

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1138 posts found

Changing the name doesnt suddenly remove its potential problems.

The scenario in the roundtable was a good start but it didnt go far enough. It started as someone that was already level 19 but forgot to do a task.. The real scenario would be getting a group together for a dungeon and leveling up multiple times and then having to leave that group and possibly cause the rest of the players not to be able to continue that dungeon without that extra person.

It has to happen naturally for it not to get in the way. If at any point a player has to go out of their way and stop what they or their group are doing to complete a task then the system is bad and should not be put in.. IMO

Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SlyLoK
Originally posted by Herase
Originally posted by SlyLoK

I cant believe people are biting onto the " It isnt P2W its pay for an event! ".. That is extremely ignorant. What is next? Pay a dollar to swing a bat? Pay a dollar to turn the safety off on a gun? 

If it is an event then make it an event that happens naturally in the game. If it is a cash shop item then make it a cash shop item. That simple.

Selling an item for real money that a player may not even receive is sleazy. 

Imagine going to a grand opening of pastry store and making a purchase only for the employee to toss it up for grabs. Dont win the scrum? You are out your purchase and your cash. Would you be happy about it? Would you be happy about it if they said " We call that our pastry EVENT! " . Does that make it better? How long do you think that store would stay in business?

Gamers are becoming the most ignorant bunch on the planet.

Not really, because you know whats going to happen. Your example would only make sense if the pastry maker told you "i'm going to throw it in the air" before you buy it.

No ones being tricked here, it's a risk those who want the advantage take. You're told the rules, if you take the dive it's on your own head.

 

Serious question

Has it been said there will be no other public events or airdrops will be cash-shop exclusive?

The point remains. SOE is accepting real world money for digital goods that may not goto the purchaser and that is wrong , sleazy and borderline theft.

If it is an event then make it an event. If it is a cash shop item them make it a cash shop item.

Going back to my example. How long do you think that store would stay in business if they told people someone else may get what they paid for instead of them?

Gamers are ignorant and will fall for anything it seems.

You know what is really ignorant? Assuming you're the only one who gets it... Everyone gets that this is an inclusion to make money. What you don't seem to get is that some are simply okay with that. They find value in creating the event... Gaining a reward for doing so or not.

I wouldn't pay for something like this either, I would expect this to instead to be an in game triggered feature.. Yet that doesn't make me smarter than anyone else, or more informed. It's about what I see as the lack of value in said asking price. My perspective on that isn't universal.

 

I dont assume anything. I know I am right about this and it is clear as day for anyone with two eyes and a brain. Which many here seem to lack.

Of course they are out to make money. But to do it in this fashion is just terrible business. 

Originally posted by Herase
Originally posted by SlyLoK

I cant believe people are biting onto the " It isnt P2W its pay for an event! ".. That is extremely ignorant. What is next? Pay a dollar to swing a bat? Pay a dollar to turn the safety off on a gun? 

If it is an event then make it an event that happens naturally in the game. If it is a cash shop item then make it a cash shop item. That simple.

Selling an item for real money that a player may not even receive is sleazy. 

Imagine going to a grand opening of pastry store and making a purchase only for the employee to toss it up for grabs. Dont win the scrum? You are out your purchase and your cash. Would you be happy about it? Would you be happy about it if they said " We call that our pastry EVENT! " . Does that make it better? How long do you think that store would stay in business?

Gamers are becoming the most ignorant bunch on the planet.

Not really, because you know whats going to happen. Your example would only make sense if the pastry maker told you "i'm going to throw it in the air" before you buy it.

No ones being tricked here, it's a risk those who want the advantage take. You're told the rules, if you take the dive it's on your own head.

 

Serious question

Has it been said there will be no other public events or airdrops will be cash-shop exclusive?

The point remains. SOE is accepting real world money for digital goods that may not goto the purchaser and that is wrong , sleazy and borderline theft.

If it is an event then make it an event. If it is a cash shop item them make it a cash shop item.

Going back to my example. How long do you think that store would stay in business if they told people someone else may get what they paid for instead of them?

Gamers are ignorant and will fall for anything it seems.

I cant believe people are biting onto the " It isnt P2W its pay for an event! ".. That is extremely ignorant. What is next? Pay a dollar to swing a bat? Pay a dollar to turn the safety off on a gun? 

If it is an event then make it an event that happens naturally in the game. If it is a cash shop item then make it a cash shop item. That simple.

Selling an item for real money that a player may not even receive is sleazy. 

Imagine going to a grand opening of pastry store and making a purchase only for the employee to toss it up for grabs. Dont win the scrum? You are out your purchase and your cash. Would you be happy about it? Would you be happy about it if they said " We call that our pastry EVENT! " . Does that make it better? How long do you think that store would stay in business?

Gamers are becoming the most ignorant bunch on the planet.

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by SlyLoK
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Kuviski

It feels ironic this is what used to be the go-to model for all games of the genre. Practically speaking, its just the traditional sub model, but instead of limiting the trail by time (14 days), its limited by content availability.

I like the system however. In fact, I regard it as the ideal system for an MMORPG.

As for Pantheon itself, I still keep on wondering whether the game will ever come to existence or not.

Again the problem is sustainability over time as player numbers decline - that's when this model becomes a lot less ideal if subscriptions fall so low that the games operational costs cant be covered.

 

Pantheon doesnt have a big team and I do not think they ever will. 

Lets pretend for a second that they do a 14.99 a month sub fee and they get / average 10,000 subs month to month. And possibly 2-4 thousand concurrent players in game.

150,000 a month

Lets now pretend that their team expands to 20 members.

Brad pays himself 10,000 a month. Very generous at 120k a year for such a project. Sounds about right though.

The other 19 employees get 5,000 a month. Very generous at 60k  for such a project. Sounds a bit high IMO. Probably closer to 3,000 averaged out.

That is 105,000 toward paying employees leaving 45,000 a month for bandwidth ( which bandwidth is cheaper than ever ) , server(s) and any other bills... Bills that I do not think would come close to totaling 45,000 for this game. In the end they would be turning a profit.

The possible problem occurs when you have a ginormous team that takes several hundred thousand to pay every month. 

I don't know of a single experienced AAA Dev that is not making 6 figures so your math is way off 

Also 120k for brad would be a joke.

Be more realistic - devs are making at least 120k, brad is making 300k - if you don't pay your devs well other companies will, and theybeill leave quickly.

45k a month for hosting is not enough, there's a lot more to it than servers and bandwidth, what about CDN costs, support, marketing, etc ...

 

MMOs are very expensive to run.

 

For some reason my reply was deleted in the cleanup.

Then you dont know many developers. You can easily take a look around at pay averages on many websites and see the average for a dev is around 60k. I am sure there are some out there that do make more but the majority do not. You are also throwing around titles like " AAA " as if that means anything. 

I am sure Brad could get 300k or more from a major studio but they arent a major studio now are they. He also said that they would be fine with 10,000 subs awhile back so there is another hole in your theory.

You are way way way off base here.

They will be just fine going with the decision of a free client and a sub fee. They know they will be a niche game.

When it comes to "action" combat I believe ESO is better than anything else out there. It is fast enough where you are always doing something and slow enough to plan and react to what is going on. Whereas GW2 I felt like I was just avoiding AOEs and running around with really no point to it.

TERA and NWN put me to sleep.

When it comes to MMORPGs I still prefer traditional combat.

The achievements sound like a bad idea to me and to say " well you should know how the game works " is a bit off putting. The achievements should just be similar to the lorebook of LotRO. Completing those tasks give you small bonuses that add up overtime. Forcing it on people to advance IS a disruption and anything that can put a stopper on playing or a good group because someone leveled up 3 times and needs to leave because they need to do those tasks is NOT a good idea.

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Kuviski

It feels ironic this is what used to be the go-to model for all games of the genre. Practically speaking, its just the traditional sub model, but instead of limiting the trail by time (14 days), its limited by content availability.

I like the system however. In fact, I regard it as the ideal system for an MMORPG.

As for Pantheon itself, I still keep on wondering whether the game will ever come to existence or not.

Again the problem is sustainability over time as player numbers decline - that's when this model becomes a lot less ideal if subscriptions fall so low that the games operational costs cant be covered.

 

Pantheon doesnt have a big team and I do not think they ever will. 

Lets pretend for a second that they do a 14.99 a month sub fee and they get / average 10,000 subs month to month. And possibly 2-4 thousand concurrent players in game.

150,000 a month

Lets now pretend that their team expands to 20 members.

Brad pays himself 10,000 a month. Very generous at 120k a year for such a project. Sounds about right though.

The other 19 employees get 5,000 a month. Very generous at 60k  for such a project. Sounds a bit high IMO. Probably closer to 3,000 averaged out.

That is 105,000 toward paying employees leaving 45,000 a month for bandwidth ( which bandwidth is cheaper than ever ) , server(s) and any other bills... Bills that I do not think would come close to totaling 45,000 for this game. In the end they would be turning a profit.

The possible problem occurs when you have a ginormous team that takes several hundred thousand to pay every month. 

Lets not turn this thread into a discussion about what happened in the past. Lets talk about the game .. a that has made a good bit of progress judging by the monthly update videos.

As for the topic. I like the idea of a free client + trial ( 3-7 days? ) + a sub. I mentioned in another thread about possibly using the sub fee as a way for more people to try the game. I used examples of 7.99 or 9.99 instead of the now standard 14.99. 

In all honesty I would be surprised ( pleasantly ) if the amount of players Pantheon gets ( if / when it gets to that point ) exceeds 10,000 at 14.99. So they could do that and get 150k a month.. But maybe they could get 15,000 subs at 9.99 a month which is also 150k a month and I would definitely take having an extra 5,000 possible players to play with than not.

Originally posted by Kilsin

This is a great discussion and you are all pretty much spot on with what we want Pantheon to be also.

The idea is to create a similar experience to EQ while using elements from VG that worked well and include some new and exciting/more modern features such as climate etc.

There will not be any ! or ? above Npcs heads and there will not be anywhere near as many quests as VG had, it will be a more about seeking out adventure and finding npcs yourself throughout the world.

Agreed. But I think there should be some sort of indicator that will let a player know that they need help. It could be a simple text of NPC : " Oh drats. I am out of spider silk " as you walk by or maybe even them waving at you + " Can you help me?" text.

We want to have a good mix of big open dungeons and also open world content which will be mainly group based but of course there will be mobs you can solo (some classes better than others depending on skills/gear etc.)

I just wanted to pop in and say thanks, I appreciate mature and civil discussions like this as this is the type of feedback we watch closely. :)

I know it is a very long way off but I had a thought about the sub model or more about the cost. There has been so much made about all the f2p games out there now and how nearly every ( all as far as I know ) p2p MMO is set at 14.99 a month.. Why not try a different approach to gather more players? Maybe its 7.99/month or 9.99/month. Those that are already playing another p2p MMO or prefer f2p may see 7.99 / 9.99 worth it for a change of pace game or just for a look see. 14.99 is fine with me.. Just thinking about the population and such.

It is a good idea to have dungeons progressively get harder the deeper you go.. I really didnt like how VG almost always had 3 and 4 dots at the entrance. Giving players a taste just makes them want to see what else is further in and more likely to group up.

Harvesting and crafting is something that I think wont make it in for release and maybe not for awhile down the road. But I would definitely want to see harvesting in the same way Vanguard had it. I had tons of fun group harvesting and how the amount gained just ticked up based on your tool and skill. On the crafting side.. While I loved VGs crafting I would like to see it simplified just a hair.. I had fun selling weapons and harvesting tools. First time since UO I felt like crafting had a purpose.

As far as all dungeons and mobs being open and contested at anytime.. I am unsure on this one. I remember a good amount of headaches it caused. But at the same time it caused people to hang around areas and groups would form that may not have happened had players been able to quickly get an item they needed before moving on..

I do look forward to seeing the graphical updates that are being worked on and I do hope that animations / physics are a high priority. Those need to change or else the game could give folks a bad impression that may not have seen the game before or those that are just mildly interesting. I would be fine with canned physics ( or animations in this case ) for hair and clothing which is something games even now seem to forget.. Cardboard hair is sooo 1990s. But realtime physics for certain things would do really well for the game even if it isnt a technical marvel from a polygon standpoint.. Flowing cloaks and robes and hair..etc. 

When it comes to the UI I really enjoy a minimal approach and show only what is needed for whatever situation that you are in. If you arent in combat just have the chat box up but as soon as you go into combat mode all of your needed information comes up like your hotbar , health , mana , stamina..etc. For me it really brings the exploration aspect out even more. I really love it in ESO ( and Skyrim ).

Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by CallsignVega
Originally posted by Pepeq
If you can turn PVP off and on, you have no real PVP.  Any game that does this, is not a PVP game.

Agreed. If this game is consensual PvP, I wouldn't go anywhere near it. The games of hand holding, zero consequences fluff garbage must come to an end. 

As they've made zero indication that EQN is a "PVP Game" I'm doubting it will be. Unlike a game such as Camelot Unchained which is PVP front and center. EQN will have PVP servers and maybe even PvPvE content, but we don't know to what extent.

     This should be interesting how EQN plans to have PvP servers, when there is no announcement yet about "sides"..   Yes, World of Warcraft has horde vs. alliance.  TOR has sith vs republic.  Rift has defiant vs guardians.  EQ has good vs evil..  In your one post in another thread you assume and hope that everyone starts the game equal.. So how do you have PvP servers when there are no SIDES..    A hates B,  B hate C, and C hates D, but D doesn't hate A or B, however A wants to assist C, but can't, then E stumbles in and hates everyone, etc etc etc..

    So much for NATURAL game play..  I guess we'll just have to go with a FREE for ALL and everyone is out for themselves.. NO sides?

And that is why they need to keep Good v Evil and Deities. Everyone liking each other in the EQ universe is quite stupid. And not only for PvP.. A High Elf should not be able to up and walk into a Dark Elf village unless they done some serious faction work.

Again you are talking about " max " profits.. Since when is " max " profit needed to run a game? H1Z1 has most likely been in development for less than a year and in that time I doubt if they have spent all that much yet. They are reusing assets and the amount of actual content in the game is something you see a single person make in a couple months. Extremely poor quality all over.. If there were 100 people working on this game then they all need to be fired.

They do not have 100 people working on H1Z1. They do not have 100 people working on Landmark. And I doubt they will even have 100 people working on EQN. Just judging the snails pace Landmark improved I will say 15-20 devs on it and seeing how bad H1Z1 is looking right now I will say 10-15 devs.. EQN may have upwards of 50.

$1 million a month to break even? That is insane.

Edit : I think a cosmetic / inventory..etc shop would maximize their profits. More people playing. Less bad word of mouth. More purchases to change the look of the hideous character models.

Then again we are talking about a game in paid alpha testing with a fully functioning cash shop...

All they have to do is remove the cash shop. They are already getting $19.99 for the game and then they could just release DLC and yearly expansions along with patches. The patches would be the normal fixes and additions. The DLC would have special appearance skins.. I think they would have plenty of players for that setup to carry the game easily and the appearance skins would give them income in between expansions.

But since they want to screw people with a cash shop... Remove air drops from the shop and have them as a random game event. Sell appearances , skins , cosmetics , inventory expansion etc. in the shop. I have a feeling that there is going to be next to no character customization ever so all those will probably sell pretty well.

I am not sure why companies are hooking up on to the f2p bandwagon. Games like H1Z1 would be better off having a $20 box price + paid DLC and possibly yearly expansions than trying to implement a screw job cash shop that is backfiring in their face. It would be more widely accepted IMO. Launching with f2p in mind just leads to lazy goals and " thats good enough " attitudes.

Scroll through the Steam reviews.. I did for 10 minutes and all of them were thumbs down about the cash shop and the thumbs up I saw were of the sarcastic variety. 

Originally posted by Allein

Someone paying to spawn a large event sounds fun, but not sure how that would work into the "living world" design if things magically appear next to in-game ATM machines.

Same goes for quests or first come first serve content. Personally would have no issue if someone wants to gamble their own money for the chance at someone else's benefit.

While I see you trying to make a connection, really not there. Totally different game designs. What comes from Airdrops can directly impact other players personally.

Now if the EQN stuff was PVP related and turned someone into a killing machine, that might be a problem for me.

It isnt different at all. It is taking basic mechanics from each game and putting them on the cash shop. Paying for a quest in EQN that someone could snipe from you is no different than paying for an airdrop that someone can snipe from you. In EQN you would lose Experience and Item Rewards and your cash and in H1Z1 you lose items and your cash.

Whats next? That is the whole problem here. Where does it end? 

After seeing H1Z1 sell content that the buyer may not even recieve / partake in got me thinking. 

What would everyone think if the the only way to trigger the Heroic Calls ( what are they called again? ) would be if someone paid for it?

What would everyone think if they sell a quest that spawns an NPC and if someone else talks to that NPC first then the person who bought the quest could no longer do it?

This is like them selling a quest and the person that bought it not being able to do it because someone else talked to the NPC first..
SOE " forgot " to pay rent to their hosts which caused problems with some of their other games for some folks. Wonder if that is the true reason behind these problems. EQ1 had similar issues as recently as last night.

I am still trying to figure out how people find this ok.. SOE is accepting money from players for an item that they may or may not have the chance to get.. That is extremely shady. The fact that these have certain items in them is just the tip of a very big iceberg.

Looks like SOE decided that they would rather screw people than make a fair game that millions would want to play ( genre is big for some reason even with nothing but trash games representing it ) and a cash shop that doesnt break the game.

These air drops should be a random in game event.. 

Originally posted by aslan132
Originally posted by jmlane223
Originally posted by Bascola

Watching one of the streamers i just saw one using these tickets and he had an airdrop right next to him:

First air drop:

  • Shotgun and ammo


Second air drop:

  • Tan military backpack
  • Waist pack
  • 90 x .223 Round
  • AR15
  • Mine
  • First aid Kit x 2
     
I am not surprised, this will sell like hot cakes and make SOE a lot of money during the already paid Alpha testing. Well played SOE!

Serious question, the stuff you get in the air drop you keep when you die? If not then who cares if some of the weapons get in game from airdrops as that person will inevitably die and lose the airdrop stuff sooner or later (benefiting more than just him at the same time)

Yes, everything you just bought with real money is lootable. It does not stay with you, and is not locked to your character. Also, the airdrop itself is not locked to you. So if someone else sees that flare, they can snipe you, and take the airdrop you just paid for. So, P2W? Probably, it just might not be you that wins even if you pay hahaha.

How long do you think that will last? I do not like f2p games ( in SOEs case paid early access + fully functioning cash shop ) and the idea of someone paying money for something that they may not even receive is pretty darn low even for f2p standards. I am guessing that doesnt stick around for to long.

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