Well-written post, even though I disagree on almost every point.

Particularly re. DEs - I've gone through the same zone with the same character at different times and had quite different DE experiences.  There's often something new; not always, some things are the same, sure, but often some things are different.  Particularly if you hang around a bit and follow a chain unfolding, it can be different at different times depending on whether other DEs elsewhere have failed or succeeded.

So the "texture" of the world definitely feels dynamic rather than static (i.e. quest hub, hoovering quests up via the most efficient "path").

Yep, still enjoying it, still got tons to do, and still feel the game has loads of room to live into.   Main level 52 Mesmer, 4 alts very low.  135 hours total for all chars.  Mostly PvE, some sPvP, no WvWvW yet (again, this is something that I feel is there for me later).

I'm coming out of the honeymoon phase, for sure; the game isn't as fresh and new as it was, it's starting to feel familiar, but I'm still playing every day and having fun.

Originally posted by sr7olsniper

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.

Not really. Pay to win is anything that affects character power. If you can buy the best gear with real money regardless if this is in game or not, specially more so if the grind is retardedly long, then that is p2w

FWIW I've never seen P2W defined like that.  It always means being able to buy an advantage with real money that a player can't achieve in-game.  It bites doubly hard in games where gear stats count for more than skill.

GW2 simply doesn't answer to that definition.  All items that can be bought can be obtained by grind.  And gear counts for less than skill anyway.  9/10 a good player in Masterwork will beat a bad player in Exotic.

It's no different than EVE's system - you can buy PLEX and sell in game to get isk, and you can buy stuff quickly that you might otherwise have had to grind for, but in no case can you buy anything that someone couldn't get by grinding.  In the arguments that raged when it looked like EVE was going to introduce P2W into their cash shop, the definition of P2W I gave above was the operative one.  Similar also is the difference in "gear" - e.g. you can buy expensive ships with slightly better stats, but they count for less than player skill and sp (which is based on an absolute time factor thet can't be circumvented anyway).

Nobody objects all that strongly to time shortcuts; what people object to is other players being able to buy a massive advantage over others via the cash shop, that others can't hope to match even by in-game activity.

"Coke-fuelled excess" is the most succinct description I can think of.

Nevertheless, it may actually attract the interest of people who had no prior knowledge of the game or the genre, and I guess that's its intention.

It's unbelievably better than I expected. 

I thought GW1 was an innovative and well made game, but I didn't like it.  I was very suspicious of all the GW2 hype and hysteria.  I didn't even like the screenshots and vids.  I'm not even all that keen on fantasy MMOs.

But after a couple of hours into the game I knew this was something special.  Now 32 (with alts at various levels below that), and just can't get enough of the damn thing.  This game is like a breath of fresh air in a stale room - at last, a modern MMO that feels like a virtual world again!  At last, an MMO that doesn't punish people spontaneously helping each other out in the wild - I mean, that alone is HUGE.  But the game is full of innovations like that, and to top it all it has the most astounding attention to detail in any game I've seen ever, I think.

And PvP is a heck of a lot of fun.

Originally posted by Castillle

So just random thing popped up in my head while reading the sandbox mentality thread and the counter thread to that o.O

How do you guys play it?  Personally, I treat it like Skyrim or Fallout.  I run around, talk to people, find out whats happening, and help whoever needs help.  Sometime I need some mats (like the god forsaken jute cloth) and I just go around trying to find them myself.  I dont really go to wikis since I consider that cheating and takes the fun out of the game.  Wikis/guides typically turn the games into an extended carrot hunt of Go to X and Do Y and yay get Carrot.  o.O  Sucky way to play tbh...

 

How about you guys?  Do you run around to all the shiny thingies in the map?  Do you talk to npcs n figure out the happenings around the place? Or maybe do you just hang out in sPVP or WvWvW?  We got owned a few days ago :(

Or do you stick with the game even if you dont really enjoy it in hopes of it getting better?  Or maybe you reached 35+ and are doing explore mode with guild mates?  I say guild mates because PUG = wipefest. 

The beautiful thing about this game is I can actually play it as the mood strikes me.

Sometimes, especially on entering a new zone, I feel the epic hero thing, when I'm in full immersion mode, and I stride the landscap (literally WALK most of the time) enjoying the scenery and the music, just helping out whoever needs help along my merry way.  At these times I will often listen to NPC conversations and talk to NPCs (there are soooo many little treats waiting for you if you do that).

Sometimes I mild RP in Say (another epic win for the game is that there are so many people around during dynamic events that you can always catch a bit of RP - this is on an "unofficial" RP server).

Then at the other extreme,usually when I'm near completion on a map, I get it in my head to do things systematically- then it's all business, ticking the boxes, and scampering and teleporting all around for the most efficient "path".

I've just started getting into the PvP - sPvP is awesome jump-in fun.  WvWvW looks like it will be fun later as I flesh out my character a bit more (lvl 32 atm).

Originally posted by Vhaln
Once I got into the idea of just running around doing whatever the hell I felt like, I really started getting into it.

Bingo.  You can play the game systematically or you can play it randomly.  I think this is one of its biggest strengths.

I had almost given up on the genre, and actually believed that I'd never get it back because you can only lose your virginity once.  But I've fallen in love with the genre all over again with GW2 - as I've said, it's about as close as a themepark can come to feeling like a sandbox, a game in which you can just follow your nose.

Originally posted by bluefunk

I was out leveling and generally messing about with my level 36 Necro and started to realise something was a miss in the landscapes and world I was exploring.  To me if you take away the undoubtably fantasic looking set pieces (Black Citidal  for example) then the normal world itself is very generic and plain.  The same gradd hills and rocks are there over and over again.

After I relaised this it does take the shine off and I started to see it everywhere.  Gratz to Anet for drawing and fooling the eye somewhat with their map skills creating the set pieces.

Great game though. :)

I'm sure the game has its problems, but graphical variety out in the world certainly isn't one of them.  I've been in moors, swamps, forests, icy mountains, glades, weird fairy veg places, various very different types of building style, etc.

It sounds like you haven't really seen much of the game yet.  Have you got an alt in each race?  You'll see a lot of variety that way.  But even with one race, the progression through landscapes is very varied.

Originally posted by nsignific

Originally posted by Butch808

Originally posted by nsignific

Originally posted by Geschaefer

It feels like soccer moms created this game.. this game where everyone wins; despite no scorekeeping and you all go home with gold metals and a false sense that somehow youve earned it.

This is EXACTLY the vibe I get from honeymooner GW2 fans. The "you're supposed to have FUN" and "GW2 doesn't need dmg meters" type stuff.

While it's nice, warm and fuzzy, it comes off as non-gamer. Doesn't sit well with me.

Wow, having fun comes off as non-gamer? are you on crack? video games are for entertainment which equals fun mate. don't be so ignorant.

I'm sorry, but games are about competition, achieveing goals and bettering yourself. Fun is a part of that in the sense that it's a consequence. Only toddlers play for pure fun, and even then there's an innate instinct to prepare for the world through play.

Please be careful when assigning ingorance to otthers. Dangerous.

That's a restrictive definition of "game" reflecting your preference for a certain type of game.  The term gameplay for what games do in general ought to alert you to that fact.

There are several different types of gameplay in MMOs to suit different kinds of gamers.  (A famous early MMO designer called Richard Bartle created the famous Bartle types: Achiever, Socializer, Explorer and Player Killer - it's not necessarily the best categorization but it gives you some idea of just how different the things people want out of games can be). 

Achievement (competition) is only one aspect of what MMOs offer, and any MMO has to have a blend of different types of gameplay or it risks failure.

It just so happens that Achievers are most easily addicted to ladders of achievement and hamster wheels, and most willing to pay for the privilege of being addicted, so their kind of gameplay has been over-represented in subscription MMOs.

Not the least virtue of GW2 being B2P lies in the fact that the developers need not be so beholden to the Achiever mindset - i.e. grinding and competition can fall back into proper balance in GW2.

Originally posted by Geschaefer

Its too easy.

Theres absolutely zero reason to group up until u hit lvl 30. Then by the time u get 30 and head to AC,, no one knows how to play their characters in a group environment; and your left with one big clusterfudge of a grouping experience.

Characters are too balanced. - Yes - I said too balanced.

A mesmer can stand and take a melee beating just as long as a Warrior or guardian.. (somethings wrong here)

Vice versa a warrior can melee hit for the same damage that a caster can drop a nuke... (somethings wrong)

Why cant a tank be that and only that,, just a tank,, and why cant a caster be taught a painfull leson when he gets too close to melee range.

It feels like soccer moms created this game.. this game where everyone wins; despite no scorekeeping and you all go home with gold metals and a false sense that somehow youve earned it.

You're not supposed to "take a beating" in GW2.  You're supposed to avoid taking a beating (both as single players and as a team). 

There is still a trinity in the game, only it's CC, Support and DPS, and each player has to take some responsibility for all three.

Actually the Trinity was ALWAYS CC, Support and DPS.  Tanks were just melee crowd control, with high HP. 

Again, there's no intrinsic reason why there should have to be such a thing as "taking the alpha", and even if there were. there would be no intrinsic reason why the person who takes the alpha should be a melee toon.

As to L2P issues, it's the responsibility of players who understand the system to get the team they're in to synergize. 

Talking works wonders.

Originally posted by Oyjord

Hi all,

 

I THINK I like my Mesmer, but it's taking some definite getting used to.  Can any experienced (lvl 40+) Mesmers please share a tip or two, esp. regarding the use of clones, shatter, weapons to use, traits to slot, etc?  I'm particularly interested in WvW and 1v1 survivabilty there as I roam.

 

Thanks in advance!  I really want to like this profession; I just need a few pointers I think.

I'm at level 20 so not that experienced, but because I'm enjoying it a lot and am at a lowish level, perhaps what I say might be of value to an absolute beginner who might stumble on the thread.

At first you have no idea what's happening and you just hopefully mash buttons.  But the more you play, the more you will start to understand what things do - and there's a lot of depth to the system, and you can make quite a variety of builds with the Mesmer Profession I think.

To start with, generally speaking (although not of course invariably) Mesmers will have Staff as one of the weapons.  Staff is the most "magic" oriented weapon, and it's all about granting boons (buffs) to friends and imposing conditions (debuffs) on enemies (although strictly speaking boons and conditions work differently from how buffs and debuffs normally work, it's a reasonable analogy to get you in the ballpark).  The fun thing about the Staff is that the boons and conditions it gives out are random - with the staff, you are a Chaos magician!

Now for the second weapon set, there are lots of different opinions.  All other combinations do fun things.  But some are more focussed on certain particular boons and conditions.  e.g. one weapon might be more focussed on imposing vulnerability on enemies, another on giving you and your allies might, or confusion, or stuns, etc., etc.  You basically have to just learn them as you go and start figuring out which you prefer for your playstyle.  There's a lot of variety here, so something for everyone.

Finally, one of the most characteristic things about the Mesmer is the illusions.  All Mesmer versions of weapons that Mesmers can equip have a couple of abilities that summon either clones or phantasms at your target, or near you.

Clones are straight copies of you with your slot 1 weapon, but they don't do any damage (although they can impose conditions, and can be made to do damage with traits), they just distract mobs.  Phantasms do damage and other interesting spells, and can be quite powerful if traited for.

When the mob they've been sicced on dies, your illusions "shatter" into little crystal purple butterflies (very pretty), doing damage and/or imposing conditions on any remaining mobs.

But the cool thing is you can "shatter" them any time you want with your F1, etc. abilities - and there you have the option to shatter + other effects.

Now here's the key point: don't be precious with your illusions, get used to shattering them tactically. They are cheap and frequently produced.  THEY ARE NOT LIKE PETS.  Well, they're kind of pets (they do have AI), but conceptually it helps to think of them more like aggro-management (clones) or  DoTs (phantasms) with a burst at the end.

There's a whole ton of stuff to learn, it's a very deep class, and this is just some key points to get you started, hopefully.  Have fun!

Originally posted by Soto

I might have some reasons that Mesmer is the least played class...so darn confussing! I made to level 9 and still not sure what the hell to train in or when to best use those many illusions. So, I am going staff and sword/sword or torch/1handed staff.

 

What are your thoughts on this class??? ¤

In every MMO there are classes where you have situational awareness and to push a lot of buttons in careful patterns to get the same result (i.e. a dead mob) as most other classes can get by pushing fewer buttons and just mashing 'em. 

Some people like to multitask, have stuff to do, to be active at the keyboard and mouse and have situational awareness.

Such people will find the Mesmer immensely satisfying.

But most people aren't like that - they like to have things a bit easier (or avoid RSI! :) ) and/or they like to focus on what's in front of them.  Such people (i.e. the vast majority of people) won't like the Mesmer profession (or generally, any "mage", "cleric" or "tank" class).

Actually, it's also sometimes to do with mood.  If you have a few alts, it's nice to have the option of either style of gameplay.  One isn't always in the mood for concentration, and ometimes it's nice to just hang back and mash.  But generally, one will prefer a particular style most of the time.

Originally posted by Kraylor

Art?  I feel like this GW2 forum is the audience at Obama's DNC convention from 4 years ago with the crowd passing out and crying. 

 

Get real, they care about making money just as much as anyone else does, they just feel they can lure more people in without a sub fee and they have a cash shop that they will tweak when they see what is selling and what isn't.  If they see they are not making their targeted revenue from what is in the cash shop now, they will put in things that players will either need or want badly to make more money.

Really clever people care about both art and money - after all, money's fairly easy to make.

Originally posted by david361107

Been watching Guild Wars 2 for little over a year now and still haven't pulled the trigger and got the game. I've learned over the years to wait and watch these boards and see what threads start popping up a week or two after launch. Red flags are, one week out and people have hit level cap, saying there is nothing to do, this game is great..but, i'm getting bored. These are all things i watch for and yes I know some people just flame to get a reaction but you can kind of see those and push them to the side. From what i'm reading Guild Wars 2 is a good game but it's simply another dumbed down sandbox MMO that's fun for a couple of weeks but isn't really holding everyones attention. So is this just trolls or is this the beginning of the end for GW2?

 

Peace

Lascer

I've never seen an MMO without those complaints.  People were hitting 60 in a week when WoW started.  If you used that sort of nonsense as a bellwether, you'd never play any MMO.

Forget about watching for things, just try the game.  Even if you did only play it for a month it would still be well worth the money, wouldn't it?

Originally posted by rungard

To be fair,,,i prefer fantasy "worlds", but this is the next best thing in my opinion.

ive played all the good ones and i put this one right up there at the top with DAOC a close second and everquest pre raiding close behind and wow bringing up the rear.

It just has so many cool things in the game, and while i can understand why progression raiders and gankers probabally wont like this game, i think its currently the best mmo platform out there at the moment.

i dont worry too much about launch glitches as all games have those, and my only real complaint is that i cant elevate the camera as i like the closer views.

if there was one thing i think they should add it would be a guild story. Like a personal story but with your whole guild.

a job well done. I already have my 50 bucks worth.

Best themepark MMO on the planet at the moment, hands down.

(And FWIW I say this as someone who's literally been won over - I was no fanboi, was sceptical of the hype, didn't like GW much, and didn't even like the screenies and vids much.)

Agree with topic.  This game is really balanced between in the sense that there's something for each of the Bartle types - Achiever, Explorer, Socializer and Player Killer.  An MMO that has a good chat system and good teaming system is going to please Socializers; but a lot of games recently seem to have tried to please Achievers, with a few trying to please Player Killers.  This game really rewards Explorers too.

It's amazing and delightful - the illusion of a living, breathing world is so well-sustained, it's just a pleasure to hang out in it doing stuff.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by eyelolled

I don't doubt that if you've pushed max level, you're missing out on ALOT of the content. It's a shame if you ask me.

The point is to see them on alts.  Not to shoot my wad on the first character.

So why did you shoot your wad on the first character?  Your playstyle is a bit unusual, I don't think you can expect the game to change to suit your particular preference. 

It's a cost/benefit thing.  You want to level without doing some of the other stuff that gives you xp?  You're going to have to live with the fact that you'll be seeing a lot of content several times.  It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by tixylix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8bm86AMPYI&feature=g-u-u

 

Simon especially seems bored already and it really just hits home to why I became so bored of GW2 in beta... it's the same thing that we've been playing all this time. Every one kept going on about how innovative and different GW2 is, the truth is it just isn't...

For me at least it felt like WAR, run through a linear map design where the PVE wasn't mixed in with PVP. You had public quests and battlegrounds and then you had the keep PVP which is called WvW in GW2. It's pretty much the same exact game and the quests are just as boring because they're still "collect 10 of these" or "kill 10 of these" and the public/dynamic quests are still "defend from so many waves" or "collect/help these" lol.

Just so funny how GW2 gets a free pass because the GW fans give it a free ride and how it has no subscription.

Not too bad, 8/10 for initial plausibility.

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

Originally posted by gurugeorge

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

I come from a long line of MMO history dating back to M59 and muds before that. I am one of those "old and obsolete" mmo gamers that the young crowd likes to make fun of. So right off the bat I am going to disagree with the OP. This game, like GW1 is not what I would consider an MMORPG so there is no way it can restore faith in them. With that said though, This IS a very good game!

This is the first game that I have played in a long time that gives me the feeling of just being lost, having no idea what you are supposed to be doing and just general chaos and I love it! I am almost level 30 now and the game has really hooked me. This is the first game in years that I want to blow off my daily real life duties and actually play more of. That is a rare feeling in todays games and I give them big kudos for that! I have not even touched on the PVP or WvW aspect of the game, this is just purely from a pve experience.

I think the world they have created has been pretty interesting thus far. The under water areas are amazing and I must say, almost breathtaking and I don't know if they took this from EQ1 but they actually seem harder then when on the surface world.

I played GW1 and must say that the only real thing that I liked from it was the story itself. With that said, the personal story in GW2 has been absolutely fantastic and I couldn't be happier. I still don't know if I like the story board feel of the cutscenes but I do enjoy the whole plot and it is what drives me to level. I just can't wait to see what is next in my story!

So given all that, what about it makes you not consider it an MMORPG?  What box isn't it ticking?  Are you thinking that only sandboxes are "true MMOs" or something like that?

Because your description makes it sound like an MMORPG to me.

 

Well it is and it isn't. If you compare it to the originals, its not, simply because of instancing. Since instancing has become popular in todays society, most will consider it as an MMORPG. The problem in GW2's game is that instancing is also the downfall for the party system. It is very difficult to be in a party and do any traveling what so ever. The overflow queue is proof of that failure. Mostly for me, it depends on how instancing has been implemented in the game. GW1, not an MMO. DDO, not an MMO. City of heros, not an MMO. Basically anytime you have more than 1 instance of a world it has now become a hybrid if you will. So in other words, any game I have to ask my group, what world or zone number are you in, it has lost its MMORPG status in my opinion.

Well of course you're entitled to your opinion but I think that's too restrictive a definition of MMORPG, especially nowadays when you have a lot more complex world-building going on with higher graphics requirements.  It's easy to have a single unified world in a text game, but not so easy to have a single unified world when everything actually has to be designed, rendered, and work over the internet to co-ordinate everyone.  Look at the problems Vanguard had with that, and on the highest technology game engine at the time.  Also nowadays there's an expectation that there will be some at least some solo content where you're the hero of your own story set in a larger world.

I think it's enough for an MMORPG to have a persistent world.  That can bear some instancing.  Of course there's a fuzzy area when you get to games like DDO, GW1 and CoH (although of the three CoH does have more of a persistent world feeling despite the instancing, since the instancing is only in missions, the rest of the world is proper big zones).  And some multiplayer games are definitely on the other side of that (i.e. where the persistent world is totally vestigial and just a lobby for multiplayer instances).

But at the end of the day, all games can do is give you an illusion of a persistent world (even big zones are really just big multiplayer instances), and so long as that illusion is of a persistent world where many people interact, then it's an MMORPG.  It doesn't really matter how they handle it technically IMHO.  For example EVE feels like a single unified world, but its dirty little secret is that it's actually probably the most heavily instanced MMORPG of them all :)  Actually all that's in the same single virtual space is the chat system, the rest is just a very clever illusion of vast space.  But you can't pull off the same kind of trick when a huge zone of earth, mountains, trees, etc., all have to be rendered and realized for a bunch of players to be in together.

Having said that, I think the way DEs are handled is very much like the definition you're working with - after all, there's not really much functional difference between an open dungeon in Vanguard and a DE really, is there?  Except DEs are more dynamic (not like a cave that just sits there with set content) and there's no kill stealing :)