Originally posted by ermorden

Originally posted by SlyLoK

How can people continue to defend this pathological liar? It is insane - borderline stupidity.. Wait it is stupidity.

All devs / people who contribute in any meaningful way in a games development would get listed in the credits.. They even list the testers and ' special ' contributers. Tasos is nowhere to be found in any and so it is obvious he had nothing to do with any of those games. He was just trying to pad his image in an area oblivious to what he and Darkfall are all about.

 

Oh wow, wait.  You just convinced me.  Darkfall is vaporware and they are all lying.  God I've been so naive.  Tasos MUST be a complete liar, especially if his name wasn't anywhere in those lists of credits.  Wow, I've been had.  Everyone knows you have to have been a lead dev or credited in every project you've ever done in order to be successful in the future at all.  What was I thinking!?  I mean forget contract work that could have been done on any of these projects, that doesn't count at all.  I need a name in credits and this guy is obviously lying. 

*sighs*

Contractors get credited. Anyone that worked on the project gets credited. The sociable coffee boy gets special thanks credit. Why is that so hard to understand? It's extremely unlikely that he worked on 4 different projects and didn't get credit in any of them. The objectionable thing is not that he's inexperienced, everyone has to start somewhere, it's that he's trying to get around it by attempting to create credentials out of thin air.

I am sorry to say that if you expect M&B to compete with any AAA game then you'll be disappointed. Even a poorly rated AAA game will get more sales than it, but in balance it would have cost more to complete. It's a niche and innovative game, those always resonate with a certain group, and small independent developers have always been capable of making them. Sometimes small independent developers are capable of projects so good they are promptly picked up by a publisher and become AAA developers, some others choose to never to go this way, out of principle, but those are rarely able to (or interested in) make AAA games or compete with them. As production costs keep going up, you'll see less and less of the former, and the only viable way to create AAA game studios will be with a lot of experience and investment.

That said, the more indies there are, the more low risk concept prototypes you can enjoy and get, which means more variety. And that's always a good thing.

Originally posted by Zorvan

Originally posted by Silvarch

Er, I was talking about legitimate enterprises. Of course it wouldn't deter potential scammers from getting money from ignorant investors, if anything it would encourage them.

 

Which was my point above. A real developer with the same game idea, but with nothing to hide, could and would be able to approach those big boys even after this fiasco and have a very good chance of getting the funding and support needed to make the game.

I disagree. It goes against market trends and has a poor track record to boot. Another failure would just worsen the record regardless of where funding for that came. Were it so easy and in so much demand we would've seen an attempt by far more known and experienced devs already.

Er, I was talking about legitimate enterprises. Of course it wouldn't deter potential scammers from getting money from ignorant investors, if anything it would encourage them.

Okay, let's see...

I disagree that it's not new information. To put it simply, if you didn't know something and you're informed of it, it's new information, regardless if your conclusions change or not. It does not have to challenge generally accepted views to be new, it only has to be previously unknown.

I wouldn't hope for a Sigil outcome, that was disastrous for all the parties involved, and the developers got seriously burned.

I don't understand this statement : "I simply state that the legallity of this would simply be that DarkFall is actually in development."

Innocent until proven guilty is not definite nor conclusive evidence of a game in development. It only means it's not certain they're scamming or doing anything illegal until proven. Whether they're making a game or what state the game is actually in, or if they're scamming and doing anything illegal, is just speculation, but they're all equally valid. All Polarization did was show evidence of their previous dealings, if not outright lies (Razorwax merged, Tasos' credentials, etc), and make conjectures based on those. You reject those assumptions by replacing them with some of your own without even showing circumstantial evidence to back them up, just faith. Faith that they're innocent and not guilty.

I personally believe they have something, but that something isn't close to the DF they've promised. Others believe they have nothing at all. Unfortunately they both fall under vaporware. The shared point is that, one way or the other, DF is vaporware. It's just an opinion, however, and you can disagree. Time will tell.

Looking at just the outcome of the game is not looking at a big picture. I believe there's some confusion in the usage of the expression. If you don't really care about the details surrounding it, only if the game is released or not, you can't possibly claim to be looking at the big picture. The final picture, maybe, but certainly not the big picture.

I don't know if I know more about game development than you do, I only know one side of the inequality. I don't know what you know. I don't know anything about the true state of the game, as I've said before. If you do know something factual, would you please share it with us so we can stop assuming and start knowing? If you don't, then you can't discount or state as meaningless anyone else's assumptions without supporting evidence, especially when they show verifiable evidence themselves to support their assumptions.

Originally posted by Zorvan

I don't think it'll hurt interest in this type of game.

Not in playing it, surely, but it will hurt interest to invest in this type of game. While as a dev you might be very enthusiastic about a concept, it's hard to sell it to an investor only interested in the bottom line if all of its previous examples have been failures, and the more examples the harder it is to argue that there isn't any correlation between the base concept and all its past failures.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

For starters Polarization

"And I already gave a brief list of obvious common sense reasons why they might have been behaving in this way, but your still asking me why they are."

Its all just to prove a point Polar, all I'm saying is that they're doing it for a reason.  You gave me possible reasons,  ONE of those reasons is that they're trying to launch this game.  I don't see how thats tough to understand.   The only other actual plausible reason is if they were trying to rip off investors and steal money that way -- which is illegal and punishable by imprisonment.

"nd you have decided that I have only provided “old information” that you apparently don’t consider has anything to do with the project."

Face it Polar, this is old information.  It happened  years ago, uncovering it now doesn't make it any newer.  I don't think it has anything to do with the actual project -- no I don't --  and personally I could care less if Adventurine releases DarkFall or if SOE does after they buy it off them like they did with Sigil and Vanguard.  Running out of money has no validity on the actual project bub, thats all I'm saying.

"And you still seem to believe that Tasos will release that comprehensive game play video he mentioned 2 months ago “soon”.

Hey, whether or not we get a video it doesn't bother me -- I'm just repeating what information I have to go on -- and that is basically that they have no PR person or Advertising agent, which usually would be responsible for putting together Trailers and such.  Personally I'd like to wait til the end of 08 (not like I have much of a choice) to see how things pan out.      I expect you'll do the same whether you like it or not too.    If we see a video great, if not,  then I guess we'll just keep "waiting" for Darkfall.

And you still think its pretty early to tell what’s going to happen to a project after 8 years of development with still no public beta, publishing or launch information / dates, I don’t think there’s really any point in continuing this conversation.

Well, with a 2008 release date that they claim to be "FIRM" I stand to reason yes, this is too early.  Development times really don't mean anything to me... I heard about them shooting a Max Payne movie back in 2003 and I was really excited.. turns out they might shoot it and it will actually come out this year.  I'm not holding my breath, but they say its pretty firm too.  I'll wait and see --- thats all I'm saying.

SILVARCH buddy,

"I am sorry maskedweasel, but to me, with statements like these:

"If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything?  Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah?"

"Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny.  That should teach him never to exaggerate again!"

These were both jokes, the first one was a half-joke the second one was a crack at polar cause I thought it was funny -- he single handedly saved the world from a potential liar.  Thats funny to me.  I like Polar, don't get me wrong, I just feel the way he worded it sounded a little dramatic.

Faith in the developers notwithstanding, how do you know this "Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out." to be true?

How do I know that its true?  The same reasons you know its not true. The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally.  Either way I'm happy.  Even if development goes on for 30 more years I'll be happy.. I'm really not as avid a supporter as you claim --- but for this forum.. and for you Silvarch, I will be.

As I stated before, until the game is no longer in development, launched, sold, or actually confirmed as a hoax all information pertaining to the speculation in regards to darkfall and or its developers means very little to me.  I'm a big picture kinda guy.  All these little things don't change the big picture for me, maybe if you explain to me exactly how Tasos saying he worked in development for Microsoft when he really brought Bill Gates his coffee really changes that a game named DarkFall is in development and has a suposed release date of 2008 then I would gladly change my stand.

Plus if you guys read all this I'll send you both lollypops.

Hmm, where to begin...

Face it Polar, this is old information.  It happened  years ago, uncovering it now doesn't make it any newer.

I take it you consider discoveries in anthropology, history and hell, physics, old information as well, then. New or old when it pertains to information has nothing to do with how recent the event it covers is, but on previous knowledge of it. This was not widely known before, thus new. Or are you saying you knew of this before Polarization's posts?

Development times really don't mean anything to me

Understood, then we will take your opinion on how it's "too early" or otherwise regarding them as appropriately meaningless.

I don't think it has anything to do with the actual project -- no I don't --  and personally I could care less if Adventurine releases DarkFall or if SOE does after they buy it off them like they did with Sigil and Vanguard.  Running out of money has no validity on the actual project bub, thats all I'm saying.

You must mean you couldn't care less, because saying you could care less means that you do care. Running out of money means the project gets canned, or ships as a crippled version of its original vision, as with the example you so kindly provided. That, by the way, has been our point all along and has a lot to do with the project.

How do I know that its true?  The same reasons you know its not true. The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally.

I don't know anything about the state of the game to be true, hence my doubts and nonconformity with what's been claimed, nor have I ever expressed  or implied that I do. The notion that you can derive conclusive evidence and know something must be true simply because the alternative is illegal is extremely naive, especially when there's precedent (illegal activities in the handling of a company by the very same people that own Aventurine). Under that logic it would be inconceivable that people commit crimes, because they're illegal.

All I can think of when I read your post is that you're supporter who doesn't care if they lie, fabricate stuff at a conference, do not care about the community enough to provide solid information about anything, and outright have illegal dealings in the management of a company, or how long they take to do anything because you have very low standards. You're easily convinced (easier than the so called vaportrolls at least) and disregard anything not directly related to the DF project but intimately related to the people involved in it. That's not looking at the big picture. Looking at the big picture means taking everything into account and trying to see how it fits together, and realizing that everything affects everything and determining how it does. The big picture indicates that if they've lied, fabricated stuff about something in public, and have done anything illegal in the management of something, nothing precludes them from having done the same with Aventurine and the DF project. I for one hope for the best, but I expect the worst.

Plus if you guys read all this I'll send you both lollypops.

I'll contact you with a shipping address.

I am sorry maskedweasel, but to me, with statements like these:

"If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything?  Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah?"

"Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny.  That should teach him never to exaggerate again!"

And especially:

"Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out."

You don't come off as a "rational Devil's Advocate" but rather as a less confrontational than average supporter whose faith is unshakable in the face of any new information. And yes, new information, because none of what Polarization has been posting was previously known, especially the real fate of Razorwax after the Aventurine "merger". So you seek to discount Polarization's finds because he can't find a clear motive, he has speculated on it (and speculate is all anyone can do without mind reading abilities), yet it's not good enough for you. What's good enough for you, however, is taking for granted your speculation as to why they're doing it, and somehow use that speculated end to justify the means.

Faith in the developers notwithstanding, how do you know this "Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out." to be true?

Ah, so the answer was that you believe it to be true. So my correction was appropriate.

Interesting to see how it differs. I stated I was only familiar with US laws, so I'm honestly surprised Norwegian law is so lenient on bankruptcy filings, sounds almost like consumer bankruptcy. AS is a form of limited liability partnership, that much I had gathered. Having read this, I don't see how it can be very positive, especially these stipulations:

"The debtor and/or its directors may be quarantined and barred for a period of up to two years from starting new business/accepting new directorships if thought unfit or if they are under criminal investigation. The court may also disqualify the debtor/a director from other existing directorships.

A director or a shareholder may become liable to pay damages in tort to creditors on the basis of negligence or wilful misconduct in their roles as directors and shareholders respectively."

which I believe are relevant to the case. You already sort of mentioned them though, and the proceedings were probably more in line with what you expect.  Unless they committed fraud, though, it's safe to assume they simply ran out of money. I just don't see how going bankrupt is a good thing.

Originally posted by dirtknap69

Originally posted by Silvarch

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Anyways, I think great things can come from small developers. 

That's your prerogative, but by no means fact. I too think great things can come from self-funded inexperienced small developers, like innovative casual games or creative niche games with low production value but a lot of bang for the buck, just no revolutionary MMO of scopes so vast that they've have never been succesfully attempted before, that touts better features than all commercial MMO to date and more of them to boot as well as AAA quality polish and technological breakthroughs (200 characters on screen and 30 FPS on average hardware with the graphics shown on the latest screenshots) unattainable by other much more experienced studios with far more employees and resources. But that's merely my opinion, derived from my personal experience and the past, and if it's proven wrong I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

UO attempted something on the same scale/scope as Darkfall, and i would say they were rather successful ;-) and that was 10 years ago.

lastly, 200 chars on screen at 30+ FPS is not a big deal if the game/graphics are designed for it. DAOC had more than 200 players active during sieges and that was 6 years ago. it was often laggy with this many players in a single siege but that lag was server load & latency related, not graphics per se.

About the first: No, the scale and scope of UO is vastly different to DF's. Certain ideologies are shared, but that's about it. UO was not designed to be what we call today a sandbox, it just ended up being one and defining the term because of the developers' inexperiences and assumptions about the players. It was successful for a time because it was the only decent choice in the market, once EQ released they started losing subs very fast to it, so they introduced Trammel (which essentially saved the game, despite the hate some have for it) and got further away from the sanbox ideal in order to stay afloat. The conditions are not the same nowadays, there are a lot of choices and certainly a lot more people, but what hasn't changed is the nature of them.

About the second, yeah, that's why I said "with the graphics shown on the latest screenshots". Do you think that framerate is attainable "with the graphics shown on the latest screenshots"? If they are, they must have some godly LoD implementation, which was my point originally when I mentioned technology unattainable by others.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Silvarch

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Anyways, I think great things can come from small developers. 

That's your prerogative, but by no means fact. I too think great things can come from self-funded inexperienced small developers, like innovative casual games or creative niche games with low production value but a lot of bang for the buck, just no revolutionary MMO of scopes so vast that they've have never been succesfully attempted before, that touts better features than all commercial MMO to date and more of them to boot as well as AAA quality polish and technological breakthroughs (200 characters on screen and 30 FPS on average hardware with the graphics shown on the latest screenshots) unattainable by other much more experienced studios with far more employees and resources. But that's merely my opinion, derived from my personal experience and the past, and if it's proven wrong I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

The problem is, is that its about as much fact as saying that the best MMOs are made by commercial game makers. 

Thats very much not true, some of the worst MMOs are made my commercial gamemakers, and the only reason you know about them, is because of the companies that create them.  You've gotta admit for a "no name. unexperienced, amateur" company DarkFall sure has their work cut out for them, and they've hit somewhat mainstream just by their game design ideas alone.

Not to mention everyone loves to root for the underdog, I'd like nothing more then for DarkFall to release and make a difference hands down on these larger publishers who are all about money, whereas darkfall is in it to make the game they want to make.  Whether they create it or not, theres no reason to really hate them, because they aren't out to "steal your cookies" they just want to create something amazing.

First of all, what's with the "commercial game maker" distinction? Unless Aventurine plans on only charging for Darkfall until they recoup costs then they're also a "commercial game maker". Second, no one has ever stated as fact that the best games are made by anyone (except for fanboys of anything). Best, good, bad, worst are all relative and subjective. Game design ideas only need imagination and an audience, so having "hit somewhat mainstream" based on those alone means nothing, except that there's people that want them.

With sheer amount of features and claimed quality of them as long as the size of the handcrafted world and other content, Aventurine, with their inexperience, numbers and funding (or lack thereof), must have faced (past tense because they announced feature completeness already) a lot of hardships during development. It would be great to see them accomplish everything they set out to do.

Originally posted by dirtknap69

Originally posted by Silvarch

Originally posted by dirtknap69

they're clearly not amateurs

 

Even though I'd hope so, it is not clear to me, especially given the lack of evidence of previous industry experience across the board. Can you substantiate this claim to remove all doubts and speculations to the contrary? Conversely, professionals don't make a MMO full time for 7 years either. It's unprecedented anyway.

The rest of your post seem to be attacks on people or games you do not agree with, wishful thinking, or wild claims (my doubts are derived from the fact I am intimately familiar with software development  strategies, especially the "release strategy", which I hear has been employed by every successful software product in the past, perhaps Aventurine should look into it), which are your right to express but will be dismissed as such.

 

well i'm a professional software developer with over 10 years experience developing commercial products, so yeah i feel comfortable saying i know what i'm talking about here. the DF devs may be guilty of OCD and sticking to the timelines they set for themselves, but i find it ludicrous for people to suggest it's never going to come out or is vapourware of somesuch. it's clear there's development there and there is actually quite a lot of info available about game features & mechanics.

 

 

Well, so am I, and I happen to work in the industry (not all my career, it's relatively recent) to boot, and it's not clear to me. Funny how that works eh? In the end all is speculation and faith, nothing is clear about the game or its state. I personally think they have something, but that something isn't even close to all the promised features, a design document a game does not make. To you everything they claim is clear, to many others it's not, and to some it's clear there's nothing, the only difference is that you are more easily convinced than the others, since it's not like there's definite proof of anything, after all.

And how is it clear to you they're not amateurs, again?

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Bankruptcy is not what you think it is.

Greektown Casio here in Detroit filed for Bantruptcy but they are far from going out of business.  It is a way to just restructure your debt and at the sametime not allow creditors to file lawsuits to obtain there money.

Bankruptcy is not what you think it is.

Debt restructuring is debt restructuring, you don't file bankruptcy for that. Now go and check who's deciding Greektown Casino's business plan and who's deciding the control of its assets. That's the creditors via court. Then check if the company is still around (or owned by the same people)  in 18 months from filing. If the debtor does not meet the court's, and by extension the creditors', expectations (including payment plans), it gets liquidated. Bankruptcy is not some "timeout" from debts and liabilities. Using it to avoid creditors is fraud.

I urge you to read about bankruptcy, especially chapter 11 which is what this type of company would usually file under so we can have a better discussion. I am, of course, only speaking about US laws, which are the ones I'm familiar with, but from what I understand European bankruptcy laws are even less lenient than this.

I understand you want to be optimistic about the unorthodox business practices of your favorite developers, but casting bankruptcy in a positive light without knowing what it entails is just ridiculous.

Edit: After some light research: It's Greektown Casino and it did change hands during the proceedings and is under the control of the courts who subject all business plans and decisions to votes between the creditors. It's now finishing an expansion with emergency financing (i.e. more debt) approved by courts and expects to be out of bankruptcy next year. Prospects look good, good for them, the courts were very lenient on them (financing approval, not strictly enforcing fines, etc) apparently because of wagering tax income to the city and the fact that some creditors own equity in the company. After all the creditors have a lot of say in the ultimate fate of a bankrupt company, and if they decided to keep it running until it runs black then this case is in the minority. Most of the times  (80% to 93% of the time, depending on the source) they choose not to. Whether it can succesfully emerge from bankruptcy, though probable, still remains to be seen.

Originally posted by ScorpioX

No need to fix it because i was directly quoting one of the devs.

If you do question really everything they ever said than that s your thing.

Do you know this to be true? Or do you believe it because the devs said so? Therein lies the difference between what you wanted to convey and what you actually did.

I do question everything I do not have good reason to believe. You do as well, it's just that our threshold for a good reason varies.

Originally posted by namelessbob

Bankruptcy doesnt always mean you are done. It is normally a way to restructure your finances and prevent creditors from hounding you while you are working to get your affairs back in order.

What you're talking about is debt restructuring and it's done with the consent and often cooperation of your creditors, that's the normal way. Filing for bankruptcy to "prevent creditors from hounding you while you are working to get your affairs back in order" is, at least where I come from (and European law is far less lenient with bankruptcy), fraud and thus a crime. True enough it does not always mean you are done, the percentage of recovering businesses is from 7% to 20% depending on the source, though that's after many of their assets are liquidated.

Originally posted by ScorpioX

Aventurine, as far as I believe, advised war game simulaltion projects for the greek military "through other companies in their group", whatever that means.

Does it mean the government has any involvement in the game ?

 

No, certainly not.

I wonder how people draw these conclusions...

I fixed your statement to more accurately express what I thought you wanted to say.

Apparently, from what I understand, Aventurine was awarded a government grant given to start up software companies in Greece, nothing to do with Darkfall or an agreement between them. This is a commonly done measure to incentivize an industry locally or nationally, similar to what Montreal has done for the video game development industry.

Originally posted by Galadourn

Originally posted by Polarization

Because his name does not even appear as even an intern or a tester on any of the credits for any of those games or from the people credited from the company’s involved in their creation.

But I have already proven beyond reasonable doubt that Tasos never worked on Age of Empires, Ashersons Call, Messiah or for Microsoft, Turbine, Ensemble Studios or Shiney Entertainament.

 

Checking the credits in a CD case is a fool-proof  way of finding out whether someone has actually participated in the project.\

There are many levels of participation, from actual coding to administrative work and, given Tasos' young age, it'd be safe to assume that his (any) involvement in  those projects would have been of the latter type.

Wait...you're serious? You think it's safer to assume he held some uncredited administrative positions in 4 different projects than it is to assume he had nothing to do with them because his name can't be found in relation to any of them.

To anyone that said it's acceptable to falsify credentials in public, or worse, a professional environment, please reconsider defending who or what you're defending if you need to continuously lower your standards in order to make their actions justifiable.

If the article is to blame, then that's an easy fix, as demonstrated by other companies that were misrepresented, yet Aventurine only sent one correction and then confirmation. If Anastasios Flampouras or Tasos Flambouras or whatever his real name is, lied or fabricated anything then one is prone to believe he may have done so before and elsewhere, under less scrutiny. To believe otherwise is naive.

Originally posted by wumptrooper

Originally posted by Freemasons

EVE is a much simpler style of game to develop because its all free space based...  Are there hundreds of dungeons in eve??? no  Monster AI pathfinding?? no.. the list can go on.. 

 

No, EVE is not a "much simpler game". You have no clue about it apparently. It has the most expensive server cluster in private sector, and server code that dwarfs that of other games. Yes it does have hundreds of dungeons (deadspace), economy and crafting systems that makes WoW's look like kindergarden simulation etc.

WoW has tons of quality PvE content which EVE doesn't have, and DFO isn't supposed to have either. That's not complexity, though.

Yes, it's about logic and common sense. Games have different budgets, just like movies. If for you a game needs $40 million bugdet to be good, then go play World of Warcraft / Vanguard / Age of Conan and stop wasting my time. I'll continue playing games that are good instead.

First of all, what you consider good is relative. Second of all, EVE is a much simpler game.  Do not let the learning curve fool you, EVE's core mechanics are just as easy to implement as WoW's , if not easier. Having the biggest cluster for a commercial MMO only entails having more servers linked together than others, that's a design issue, for a game that isn't even seamless you only need scalable server code and some load balancing, not considerably more than what you'd need for any other MMO, definitely not dwarfing. The economy is, again, a design issue, not an implementation issue, WoW was never intended to simulate anything.

Where EVE does cut massive corners in comparison to WoW is in amount of content. EVE is basically empty space with objects floating in it and static, though pretty, backdrops. The hundreds of dungeons you mention are the exact same. We're not talking about a huge seamless handcrafted world with hundreds of items (what WoW is and some of what DF is promising). But hey, that's what space looks like and it's just conveniently way cheaper, easier, and faster to create than the WoW alternative, even if not less fun for some.

There's a reason why EVE was a lot cheaper than WoW, it does not have nearly the same amount of art assets, content or polish as WoW, and the complexity of its mechanics is in the usage, not the implementation. Attempting something near, similar, or even better than WoW, as DF is, would end up costing near, similar, or even more than WoW, or at the very least a multiple of what EVE did.

Please notice the other baseless accusations that the OP is lying or making stuff up and the noticeable lack of apologies for, well, making baseless accusations, after proven wrong. I'm afraid you won't get any Polarization, because it's easier to unfoundedly insult, discredit and undermine someone that has a different view from you than it is to man up and apologize for it once the facts are out.  The former only requires you to believe (or disbelieve) in something strongly enough, while the latter requires you to be rational and civil.