Originally posted by nileq

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Silvarch

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Did you read my post at all?  because I never said that there new arguement would not be valid because their old one was wrong.. what I am saying is that they have not admitted that they were wrong on their last arguement and are now saying that the game will release but it will be shitty.

Do you understand the problem with that?  To have a new arguement, you either have to admit you were wrong on the last one or prove you were right.

You cannot just change your last arguement to fit in with the new information.  Their first arguement was wrong, NONE of them have even said that, they just choose to pick a new arguement to make them look right again.

Nobody can argue that the game will be unsatisfactory because we have not played the game yet, we do know the game is real and will start a beta in Oct 2008.  So the Vaporware/hoax arguement was wrong.  Now what state the game is come release is still up in the AIR and nobody can say it will be good or bad yet with any kind of facts.

Do you get it?  I dont care about their new debate until we finish the last debate.   And after being called a ton of different things because I beleive Darkfall is real, your dam right I get pleasure for rubbing their face in it.

 

Oh I read it. What I read from this one though, is that you're unwilling to consider their new argument until you get some sort of self-served closure on the old one by way of admission of defeat from the so called trolls. So basically you just decided to ignore it, which is, of course, your prerogative. By the way, I must again warn you that you haven't proven them wrong yet. That can't happen until the game releases commercially, regardless of announcements, so you won't hear any admissions of defeat from anyone yet. If you choose to wait for release or cancellation before you argue quality, again that's your prerogative, but trolls have already moved on to that, and you can't dismiss (just ignore, thus not comment on) their arguments by saying you expect them to do anything unrelated to the argument itself before it can be valid.

Yes I agree.
 

Darkfall has proven nothing so far.  Announcing a new video is not a proof.  Its an annoucement.  Defunct companies and dead gov't typically make a lot of announcement down to the moment of its downfall.

Likewise, making a video is not the same thing as making a game, much less a game with so much being promised.  So much has been said and so little done over the course of 7 years+.  If I can still hold faith in such a soap opera, every fortune teller on earth will come knocking on my door tomorrow.

 

Laughing out loud, You SIR ARE aware that the "announced video" is already released?

Here I'll help you out: http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=64217 Go download

and to the good fellow Silvarch, go and look up the term vaporware, since the definition of the term does not fit Darkfall Online, you have been proven wrong. Here I'll help you with a link aswell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

 

Dear nileq, it seems you are misunderstanding a lot of things. Am I part of the group that has been said to have been proven wrong? No. Do I believe they have a game? Yes, I always have. Do I believe it's vaporware in spite, or even because of what's been said about it? Yes. Although my last two answers may seem mutually exclusive, they're not, and I will use the article you so kindly provided (apparently without reading it) to demonstrate how it is so.

Do see the types section of the vaporware article that you linked? Especifically the "obsolete on delivery", "overambitious hype" and especially the "falling short of expectations" types of vaporware? Darkfall has yet to prove it isn't either of those. So you see, even if/when it does release it could still end up being vaporware by the very definition you heralded. If you want to be anal, it hasn't yet released, so it hasn't proved it's not vaporware (the existential kind) at all, but since I actually do believe they have a game, I won't argue that.

So as you see, no one has been proven wrong yet, except for those who said the video wouldn't be released on August or at all. Only once the beta is playable then those who said or thought the game did exist will have been proven wrong. Only once the game releases, those who said or thought it wouldn't release would be wrong. Only once the game proves to be of great quality and everything people expected and have everything it was claimed to have then those who think otherwise would be wrong. Until then their guesses are as valid (if not equally probable) as yours.

A most joyous occasion. Beta will hopefully, for better or for worse, end all the discussions about the state of the game, release probability, professionality of the developers and quality of the support and whatnot once and for all. Signing up when I get home.

Originally posted by Dark_Lord_13

 

No logical debate will deny statistics, so I hate to say it, but just because locic dictates that because someone's arguement was not right before can not by any means dismiss the that persons next arguement is illogical in it's ignorance of statistics.

Even logic has it's limits on the grounds of chaos theory vs. statistics.

This is where we disagree. Then again, I'm talking about a strictly logical debate, argument for argument, not debater for debater. Logic can't have memory or be influenced by past results, or it won't be completely objective. Logic isn't based on statistics, or I could logically argue that any given person is chinese. Much like the kid who cried wolf parable, just because someone has been wrong/lying most of the time, you can't logically dismiss their new argument as wrong or invalid. I have no idea what chaos theory has to do with anything we've been talking about, do you really know what it is?

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Did you read my post at all?  because I never said that there new arguement would not be valid because their old one was wrong.. what I am saying is that they have not admitted that they were wrong on their last arguement and are now saying that the game will release but it will be shitty.

Do you understand the problem with that?  To have a new arguement, you either have to admit you were wrong on the last one or prove you were right.

You cannot just change your last arguement to fit in with the new information.  Their first arguement was wrong, NONE of them have even said that, they just choose to pick a new arguement to make them look right again.

Nobody can argue that the game will be unsatisfactory because we have not played the game yet, we do know the game is real and will start a beta in Oct 2008.  So the Vaporware/hoax arguement was wrong.  Now what state the game is come release is still up in the AIR and nobody can say it will be good or bad yet with any kind of facts.

Do you get it?  I dont care about their new debate until we finish the last debate.   And after being called a ton of different things because I beleive Darkfall is real, your dam right I get pleasure for rubbing their face in it.

Oh I read it. What I read from this one though, is that you're unwilling to consider their new argument until you get some sort of self-served closure on the old one by way of admission of defeat from the so called trolls. So basically you just decided to ignore it, which is, of course, your prerogative. By the way, I must again warn you that you haven't proven them wrong yet. That can't happen until the game releases commercially, regardless of announcements, so you won't hear any admissions of defeat from anyone yet. If you choose to wait for release or cancellation before you argue quality, again that's your prerogative, but trolls have already moved on to that, and you can't dismiss (just ignore, thus not comment on) their arguments by saying you expect them to do anything unrelated to the argument itself before it can be valid.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Silvarch

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by mike470

Originally posted by TdogSkal 
 

 

Hi Tdog, guilds coming along nicely. It's a little early, but ya need to be patient with this kind of stuff, eh? 

Oh right, the post.  On with the discussion!

 

So your saying that Darkfall only has 2 possiable outcomes?  Not releasing or sucking on release?

The chances of DF having a decent release are very slim.  Beta for a month, then release?  One month, especially with all of these "features" that DF has..  I'm very doubtful.  Professional testers are nice, but you need more than 10-200 people to test a game; especially with all of Darkfall's "features"

How did you come up with that... what about 2 more opinions... It is great on release or it is playable on release?

As I said above, that seems like a slim chance.  Beta is important..isn't that what you do an an intern?

You trolls are amazing.... Last week It was "it will never come out, its vaporware"... this week its "It will suck on release or not come out at all."  Way to cover your asses.

There's a possibility of vaporware; although it is a less of a chance than before.  There is nothing wrong with changing the arguement, especially when things happen this suddenly.

Honestly, if DF releases, I don't see a good release.  But, I guess that makes me a troll thinking differently.

Please do us all a favor and dont play Darkfall on release, the last thing we need is a bunch of cry babies on the forums because they died and lost all there stuff.

hehe.  I played a full loot game for six years, and I'm going to begin playing another one if I like the free version and can join a decent village.  I've died and lost so many valuable things, but I stick around. 

Aren't you the one who says not to generalize?

 

 

 

The point is you haters are just changing your story to fit the latest news.  Its is not vaporware now that we have a date for beta, so now it will have a bad release.   It would be one thing if you haters said that Darkfall is going to be a crap game on release, then you would be fine... But when you say over and over that Darkfall is a hoax, its vaporware, it will never release, then we find out this information and all of you change your arguement to fit it.

Its like saying Well the Detroit Red Wings suck and will never win a playoff game, then after they win there first playoff game, coming back and saying well they will never win a championship.  Its pretty much makes your arguement worthless because you cant stick to your guns.

Us so called fanbois have never changed our arguement that Darkfall is real and it will release why should you hates be able to adapt your arguement to fit the current news everytime some news comes along?

Glad the guilds going well... CoS is going well.   Mike, your not a troll because you have a different opinion, your a troll because all you are doing is creating a useless arguement based on the information at hand, as that information changes, so does your arguement.  That is trolling.

 

Changing your argument to take into account newfound information is not trolling, it's the smart thing to do in all areas. Or are you suggesting that one should not change one's argument in lieu of new information in order to keep it valid? Debating does not have memory. It doesn't matter if someone was wrong the last 99 times, you can't logically justify simply dismissing their 100th argument based on that history. It's possible they were wrong on the hoax argument (just possible because even though announcements have been made, there's still no beta or game yet) it doesn't make a different argument from them invalid.

Even if you don't agree with their new position, you're not arguing against it, you're arguing against the holders of the position because of their old argument. Argue why the game will be released with all its promised/stated/listed/mentioned/once talked about features.

 

See that is bullshit, if you can change your arguement everytime new information is released then you can never be wrong..

The naysayers were wrong, the beta will be released in Oct 2008.  That made their vaporware/hoax arguement wrong... I have not seen one hater/troll state that fact, now they just changed their story to the game will suck on release. 

So what your saying is that as long as they change their arguement to fit the latest news then they were never wrong in the first place?  If someone was wrong on their arguement 99 times then got 1 right, guess what they are still wrong most of the time.  Logic is simple my friend.  Logically they were wrong about the vaporware/hoax arguement, now if they admit they were wrong and then state their new position, I would be fine with that but that is not the case here.

If you can't understand what is wrong with that then their is no reason to keep talking to you.

Where did I say that changing your arguments meant you weren't wrong in the past? Are you reading my posts? If you're wrong, you're wrong, but that doesn't make your next argument wrong as well. I said it doesn't matter how wrong or how many times one person has been wrong in the past, it doesn't make their new arguments invalid. Logic is not statistics or viceversa.

And while probable, do not forget that they haven't yet been proven wrong yet. The only way that argument can be proven wrong is for DF to release commercially.

Instead of dismissing their arguments of the game being unsatisfactory on release by pointing out who they are and how you believe they were wrong on their last argument, argue against the game being unsatisfactory. If you feel you've won the hoax argument, there's no need to bring it up (unless you take pleasure from that, but that's not debating, that's just gloating a bit too soon), and you can't use that as a detractor for their current argument.

If you keep your feelings away from reading the post, you will notice that I am not arguing for either side here. I am just asking you to debate properly and logically.

It's Aventurine, and the only feature they've cut was prestige classes. The game is allegedly feature complete. They did, however, apparently push back a lot. I find the quip about business ethics unfair. No matter the company, if it were up to developers they'd all like all the time in the world to finish their work, but it's usually beyond their control, or even that of their superiors.

That said, if there really is a point when you are wondering what the thread title implies then that means DF is only as fun as watching people be wrong about stuff, so the nay-sayers would actually be right.

originalegg, why are you tolling yourself (or responding to inexistent trolls) without anyone having done so? The thread had a clear subject and the reply was right on it and both were without any trolling intentions, so why did you have to bring it up if you hate it so much? Do you actually like the controversy and the flamebaiting? Because that's trolling.

On the subject: It's good news.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by mike470

Originally posted by TdogSkal 
 

 

Hi Tdog, guilds coming along nicely. It's a little early, but ya need to be patient with this kind of stuff, eh? 

Oh right, the post.  On with the discussion!

 

So your saying that Darkfall only has 2 possiable outcomes?  Not releasing or sucking on release?

The chances of DF having a decent release are very slim.  Beta for a month, then release?  One month, especially with all of these "features" that DF has..  I'm very doubtful.  Professional testers are nice, but you need more than 10-200 people to test a game; especially with all of Darkfall's "features"

How did you come up with that... what about 2 more opinions... It is great on release or it is playable on release?

As I said above, that seems like a slim chance.  Beta is important..isn't that what you do an an intern?

You trolls are amazing.... Last week It was "it will never come out, its vaporware"... this week its "It will suck on release or not come out at all."  Way to cover your asses.

There's a possibility of vaporware; although it is a less of a chance than before.  There is nothing wrong with changing the arguement, especially when things happen this suddenly.

Honestly, if DF releases, I don't see a good release.  But, I guess that makes me a troll thinking differently.

Please do us all a favor and dont play Darkfall on release, the last thing we need is a bunch of cry babies on the forums because they died and lost all there stuff.

hehe.  I played a full loot game for six years, and I'm going to begin playing another one if I like the free version and can join a decent village.  I've died and lost so many valuable things, but I stick around. 

Aren't you the one who says not to generalize?

 

 

 

The point is you haters are just changing your story to fit the latest news.  Its is not vaporware now that we have a date for beta, so now it will have a bad release.   It would be one thing if you haters said that Darkfall is going to be a crap game on release, then you would be fine... But when you say over and over that Darkfall is a hoax, its vaporware, it will never release, then we find out this information and all of you change your arguement to fit it.

Its like saying Well the Detroit Red Wings suck and will never win a playoff game, then after they win there first playoff game, coming back and saying well they will never win a championship.  Its pretty much makes your arguement worthless because you cant stick to your guns.

Us so called fanbois have never changed our arguement that Darkfall is real and it will release why should you hates be able to adapt your arguement to fit the current news everytime some news comes along?

Glad the guilds going well... CoS is going well.   Mike, your not a troll because you have a different opinion, your a troll because all you are doing is creating a useless arguement based on the information at hand, as that information changes, so does your arguement.  That is trolling.

Changing your argument to take into account newfound information is not trolling, it's the smart thing to do in all areas. Or are you suggesting that one should not change one's argument in lieu of new information in order to keep it valid? Debating does not have memory. It doesn't matter if someone was wrong the last 99 times, you can't logically justify simply dismissing their 100th argument based on that history. It's possible they were wrong on the hoax argument (just possible because even though announcements have been made, there's still no beta or game yet) it doesn't make a different argument from them invalid.

Even if you don't agree with their new position, you're not arguing against it, you're arguing against the holders of the position because of their old argument. Argue why the game will be released with all its promised/stated/listed/mentioned/once talked about features.

The forums must be pretty jaded if all valid points/criticism levied at not only DF, but most contemporaneous fantasy MMOs (add EQ2 and to some extent WoW to the mix) are considered trolling. He didn't mention all of DF's races, but he also didn't mention all the races in Vanguard, as they weren't relevant to his point. You can't deny what he said at face value, even if you don't agree with his opinion. He's not posting it to bait, anger or create controversy, at least the OP didn't convey that intention. I'm starting to believe that some people around here just use troll and "person whose opinions and views I disagree with" interchangeably.

On the topic at hand: Personally I'm not really tired of those races, but I honestly would like to see more exotic ones. There was a project I followed that promised, among many other features, a myriad of playable races, including dragons, gryphons, dopplegangers, etc. And the mechanics behind some of them, while incredibly impractical, seemed interesting. In the end it just ended up being vaporware, not to my surprise, but I'd really like to see stuff like implemented in a game, albeit toned down for reality.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Mahlo

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Darkfall does not need a big population.  Something along the line of EvE works for me and most other players looking at Darkfall.

 

Eve has a big population!

 

EvE has around 250,000 subs.  That is not a large population if you look at other MMO's but it is enough players to make the game feel alive with other players.

That's a large population if you look at other MMOs. WoW is an outlier, of course, but discounting that and only considering other MMOs (except for browser based or free to play), Eve Online ranks as 5th MMO overall with most subs. It has more subs than LOTRO, DDO, COH/V, EQ2, EQ1, etc, pretty much every other relevant MMO. Less subs than Lineage (1 and 2), and FFXI, but those are asian phenomena which is arguably a different market from the west and where the bulk of their subs come from. So EvE's sub base is actually large and very respectable in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Please do us all a favor and dont play Darkfall on release, the last thing we need is a bunch of cry babies on the forums because they died and lost all there stuff.

Actually, the last thing DF needs is for the community to scare and ostracize potential customers with an unjustified superiority complex and elitism¹ like you're doing here, specially if the game is supposed to speak by itself. The way to reward the developers (and by extension improve the health of the game) for their efforts is not by acting unofficial fanboy customs officer, but by getting as many customers as you can and then letting them figure out whether the game is right for them or not. If you want to take it further then volunteer to help get new players acclimated to the playstyle. If people bothered to do that in these types of games then maybe it wouldn't be a niche, it'd be popular enough that you wouldn't have to wait 8 years for a messiah to save you and you'd have more options in games now. Wolves that scare away all the sheep starve. 

And regarding the vaporware denomination, there are different types of vaporware. If DF falls short of expectations after such a long wait, it's still considered vaporware.

1. See the Vanguard community pre-release.

The graphics are more than good enough for what they're trying to do, in fact, maybe too good, which is why I really don't believe Tasos' statement on performance. But I guess we will see.

I don't agree with the statement that it's laughable to think that there's correlation between developer experience and potential success because there is. Not to say there are no outliers, but those are few and far between. An amateur studio given WoW's design document and resources wouldn't have been able to produce what WoW is today or its success, despite having all the tools.

What I understand from the wording of the agreement is that AVE is licensing or purchasing DF from Aventurine, thus taking control of the publishing and probably having the final say on the game, since royalties are usually paid the other way around. This isn't a bad thing.

originalegg, I'll give you the gentlemanly nod the moment you're right, but not before. I admit you have a higher chance to be right now so I am just not confident in my bet anymore to go through with it. Unless you're willing to give me 1000:1 odds. If you're certain of it, then I'm sure you'll have no problem with that, easy money for you, right?

For others, yes it's not a certainty that the game will release this year or at all, or that public beta will come in October, or that the game is good, it's okay to remain skeptical, but these are good news. Anyone even remotely interested in DF should be glad to hear this.

Polarization, every game in existence has claimed being the best or most <insert something> when even the devs know they're not, or when it doesn't mean anything. It's marketing garbage. Well, except Tasos seems to believe a lot of what's claimed, but he's no dev. Anyone rational knows that is not the extent or magnitude or quantity of features, but the quality and combination of them that can make a game succeed (or fail). Nothing can replace a hands on review (by oneself) when it comes to that.

Or: You say you're going to give someone a ride somewhere. You go out and your car makes a speech at a conference where it says it's worked in a myriad of projects and companies completely uncredited and that the video it's showing has never been seen before and that the project it is working on now has a community of well over 3 million users, then contacts journalists to correct his job title on a report of said conference while expliclity confirming the rest of the stuff.

That kind of stuff.

This is excellent news. This means we can reasonably expect some sort of beta in October, and that release within this year is not completely out of the question. Now all that remains to be seen is what state the game is in, which we will soon enough, as well as the video. This also means I'm backing out of a certain bet I was about to make   .

Either way we have a deadline imposed on Aventurine now, so it means chances are good of getting a lot more info on the state of the game in the next few months than we have ever before, namely coming from a pilot build. I understand the philosophy behind letting the product speak for itself, but I don't agree with it, they should market it, even EVE has gone this far through aggressive marketing.

Originally posted by Aragon100

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

 The answer to your request for proof, Aragon100, is that there is none. It is philosophically impossible to prove, absolutely, that something does not exist. Neither can I prove that God does not exist, nor that there aren't fairies living at the bottom of your garden, nor that the moon is not made of green cheese and we aren't all living in a candy coated Matrix nightmare. Yet in all these cases, the 'evidence' in support of their actual existence is equally sketchy.

 

Just.

 

Like.

 

Darkfall.

 

So rather than attempt the impossible, I'd like to ask you a question instead Aragon100: will you ever give up hope? Surely everyone has a limit of patience, of faith... what's yours? If that magical terabyte of actual  gameplay footage doesn't materialise this month? If there's still no sign of an open beta by the end of this year? This decade? Twenty years from now will you still be waking up every morning and checking your Inbox with tears of hope welling in your eyes, just in case Tasos finally decided to reward your faithfulness by allowing you to join the beta-bots in the Best Game Ever?

Just curious.  

 

The difference btw you and me is that i can actually show that a development of the game Darkfall is taking place. I have hardcore facts backing my statements, at least as far as it can be considered facts what developers delivers.

You have nothing but your gut feeling. =)

There is no reason to give up hope in this stage of developing. Its rather the opposite. Release and beta soon is something that get every Darkfall fan excited. Why should we give up hope when the game is about to be going live?

Age of Conan followers didnt give up hope on their game, it was actually something they considered to be the next messiah of MMORPG games. A over hyped game they followed like a religion. Look at their sad faces today. They were scammed by a bunch of thiefs and scammers. If that is the way to go then i feel sorry for the MMORPG genre. Darkfall developers approach is alot more tasteful to me. A low profile, develop the game as good as you can and let it speak on its strength.

Actually, the low profile they keep is one of the reasons i applaud them and believe in them as i do. Add a possibility to test the game fully before buying it and they have my total loyalty.

If you, or anyone else on either side, had "hardcore" facts not based on pure faith and conviction, or conjecture based on the past and avalaible information (or lack thereof), there wouldn't be any polemic on the subject.

Any game has its cadre of devout followers heralding it as the second coming of Christ, you just happened to be on DF's. How can promised events, in the future, that haven't materialized yet, able to capture your total loyalty? How can you fault AoC followers for doing the same you proudly admit? Is there any conceptual difference at all (besides the management of the compay and project behind those games) between you and those AoC followers? What makes you so certain that the Aventurine methodology will lead to better results, as opposed to worse, when all other MMOs that have flourished have used a different one? Had a free trial/beta (though not the same, they seem to be used interchangeably by the DF community) been released already and proved the quality and by extention state of the game I would not question the reason for your loyalty, I might even join you in it, but so far it has not happened, so I have to ask, why?

Where I come from trust and loyalty aren't freely given away on words and promises, they're earned through actions. Hope you can always have for anything you might find agreeable, but conviction and loyalty?

It's not the waiting that's objectionable. We're all waiting for Darkfall one way or the other, even if it's for different reasons, but unless we're monetarily or emotionally (as some seem) invested in the project, it doesn't really affect us. It's the blind conviction/faith/belief. It's the acting like the unofficial Aventurine Defense Force anytime someone dares to post some criticism on their practices, decisions and actions and summarily dismissing them as if they were not valid, to not mention often including personal attacks or labels in the replies. Again, the burden of proof does not lie with the skeptics, but with the ones claming the improbable.

Originally posted by Aragon100

Successful in subscribers, yes definetly. Good quality, sure. Loads of quests, agree.

And also the most boring endgame ever created.

I played WoW for a year. Went to lvl 60 with 2 characters.

After playing the endgame version for a bit it suddenly become very boring. You make the same instances week after week to get that uberweapon or armor to youre guild and increase the guild power so you could continue doing the same thing in harder instances. That isnt a good endgame.

Sure alot of players do like WoW since they have almost 10 million subscribers but for a quality seeking MMORPG player with experience from old UO its a total crap game.

Darkfall endgame will be the living world that the playerbase of the game make it. Its no scenario thats been dictated by the game developers. Its no spoonfeeding involved in a good sandbox world.

I won't argue that, I agree. I played WoW because my friends were playing it and it was fun running instances and PvPing with them, I enjoyed it, but the best time I ever had in an MMO was SWG near launch, before Jedi, before CU, etc when I was a droid engineer who owned and managed a shopping mall. And that game had crap for developer provided content (endgame was killing rancors). I really miss that game. UO was okay, but I was never much of a PKer. DF would be great as promised, my only worry (besides it not releasing feature complete, or at all) is that it ends up being a gankfest.

Originally posted by downtoearth

ok you guys are really asking for it arent you

The game? Yeah. Or information. Or answers to some questions. Anything really.

Originally posted by rwyan

"About the WoW not having features or content thing, it's extremely ignorant and quite simply wrong. Even if you (generally speaking, not the person quoted above) hate WoW, Blizzard, each and everyone in the dev team, you have to admit that it's currently the game with the most content and of better quality than any other out there. If you choose to deny that then there's no helping your bias. Give credit where it's due."

I'm not saying there isn't content.  What I was pointing out that if WoW does indeed have 135 staffers(including those working on the expansion), its dissappointing to not see resources devoted to developing more live content.  This is definately something lacking from WoW's feature set(regularly added content).  I'm not h8n on WoW or Blizzard, just pointing out a missed opportunity is all.  Sorry for being off topic, hopefully this won't derail the thread. 

All I was doing is saying,"Hey, here is this developer over here and they are doing something really really cool.  They don't have the resources Blizzard/Vevendi has, but look at what they're doing.  Why can't they do this too?"

But yeah, what Blizzard/Vevendi has done has been great, but it can always be better.  And no, WoW doesn't match the wealth of content offered in elder games like EQ and AC(those guys are still around you know!)  I'll give credit where credit is due, but I'm going to be reasonable about it.

 Yet. EQ has what? 14 expansions? It's not just the sheer quantity of it, but polish and quality. I'm not focusing about raid content. Though important, I assure you that emphasis on that is not what has pulled in the ridiculous amounts of subs WoW has, the vast majority of the players don't get to experience it. I'm talking about quests, areas, dungeons, battlegrounds, etc, and other activities that a casual player logs back on to do. Raid encounters are just the halo cars of their lineup, and they understand that it's not where the money comes from, so they don't go overboard with them, just enough amount and great design to keep them interesting.

WoW is unmatched in solo/casual/small group content and quests, monotonous as most of them may be.

WoW's dev team does constant patches, and every now and then they add more content and features (Quel'danas is a recent example), but most of the time it's just to fix bugs or rebalance stuff. Do you know the flak other teams, CCP coming to mind immediately (with the ambulation expansion), get from the userbase for choosing to develop new content and features over fixing or balancing important stuff in current ones? Keyword here is "polish". It's the reason Mythic was smart enough to cut content that wouldn't be polished by release to still make the date with a polished game, something Aventurine has apparently been incapable of, though unwillingness to compromise isn't always bad. WoW's bugs have probably the shortest average lifetime of any MMO's, and when a critical bug or exploit is discovered it will be already hotfixed by the next day. The reason they've enjoyed the success they have is because they've known what to work and focus on, and it's also the reason they have a lot more subs than all other western MMOs put together.

Anything can be improved, but the reason why they don't do what you or small teams think is cool is because they know better, as the numbers have shown. It's not an missed "opportunity" if it'd make them less successful. And if it makes them more successful, chances are they have evaluated it or implemented it already. They could be wrong and a project with a completely different methodology could surpass them or at least approach them, but that hasn't happened yet, thus so far they haven't been wrong. Based on ROI, each of those 135 are more valuable and have done a much better job, proportionally, than every other MMO dev out there, small team or large team.

Originally posted by Aragon100

Originally posted by GMny

Originally posted by downtoearth

Originally posted by GMny

There is aboslutely NO WAY they have 70 people working on this because it would have been out or at least deep into public Beta by now.

The most they have is 30.. and I doubt they even have that many based on how little info and media has been released over the last years.

 

 

they have around 70 not all devs they have 30-40 devs

 

You met them all? show me resumes.. Shit show me even ONE resume of a dev working on Darkfall.

 

Show me a quote on the 20-30 developers you were talking about in your opening reply of this thread please.

Originally posted by Aragon100

 

Originally posted by 1Ness

Not sure what you're trying to prove but you're not going to end up proving much of anything by posting this stuff.. all of this is really old news already.. everyone knows the handful of names that work on it.... most names are the original guys...

 

Nice thread Sam.

 Id say 24 fulltime developers and 6 contractors is abit more then "a handful".

http://df.warcry.com/news/view/68059

[QUOTE] Tasos Flambouras: Aventurine currently employs 24 developers in-house and six professional contractors. The staff is international from Norway, Greece, Italy, the UK, the US, Denmark, and France. Its activities, other than Darkfall, are research into game and simulation technologies. We've also advised war-game simulation military projects in the past through other companies in our group, activities that have given us some valuable perspectives to be used in game development. The company also sponsors and supports sporting events, athletes, and competitive gaming tournaments. Aventurine is organized under the laws of Greece and the European Union as an S.A. Corporation. [/QUOTE]

Developing team have increased from 14 developers end 2002 too 21 developers 2005 and 24 developers + 6 professional contractors 2007. Seems nice to me, hehe.

More info on the developers-

Henning on Artzone http://artzone.daz3d.com/index.php?mode=people_card&p_id=12031

David, one of the 6 professional contractors http://www.davidsaber.com/

Mirco Sanguinetti, a Darkfall AI programmer was selected for the job out of a pool of about 200 applicants.

About the WoW not having features or content thing, it's extremely ignorant and quite simply wrong. Even if you (generally speaking, not the person quoted above) hate WoW, Blizzard, each and everyone in the dev team, you have to admit that it's currently the game with the most content and of better quality than any other out there. If you choose to deny that then there's no helping your bias. Give credit where it's due.