Originally posted by Fadedbomb

By looking @ all the hype around a WoW-copy with a StarWars skin, it seems that SWTOR is getting SEVERAL times the "hype" that RIFT did.

Review:

-RIFT was supposed to kill WoW

-RIFT was also a WoW-copy (please move away from WoW-clone, it sounds immature, clone =/= copy)

-RIFT had the same UI, inventory, and skill system of WoW (same thing SWTOR is doing)

-RIFT flopped REALLY hard, so hard in fact that they viewed their sub number drop rate as a "failure in the making" and have started an aggressive freetrial, discount && "veteran return" plan.

 

 

I've been around the MMO-block for quite awhile now trying, testing, and playing almost every single MMO out there (even the ones that I KNEW what to expect before trying them, but still tried so i was 100% sure). Yet, time after time AFTER TIME I see the same community over-hype of the "NEXT BIG THING" only to have it blow up similar to AION, RIFT, etc etc etc.

I'm only worried at the backlash that SWTOR's failure will bring. It's one of the largest fully developed MMO's of all time. Yet, they didn't feel that breaking from the "industry standard" of WoW's lowest common denominator was a "safe" investment, and that spelled their doom since the inception of SWTOR. Will we see a decrease in investing towards MMOs in general? Will we see more garbage "F2P" fad increases?

 

Or, could we possibly see a shift in the market towards triple 'A' sandbox development & implementation? Obviously I'm hoping for the latter, but I feel it'll be somewhere in the middle of less investing towards MMOs & a larger interest in sandbox MMOs. Granted, that's not a horrible thing to have happen, but it's obviously not the ideal.

 

 

Thoughts?

 1st:  You've played and/or tested every MMO on the market?  A time-frame may be more appropriate.  As an example:  If WoW was your first MMO, then you've probable NOT played: Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Earth and Beyond, Eve, City of Heroes, ect ect.

2nd:  EVERY MMO has a similar inventory, skill, and UI system.  These are staples of the industry.  Why?  Because they work.

4rd.  Rift is alive.  It hasn't failed, and hasn't killed WoW.  Failure to kill WoW is NOT a failure for the MMO.

I've been playing MMOs since 97.  I am looking for the next Everquest or WoW.  Not in design, but in the spirit of catching my attention.

After beta'ing Rift briefly and playing during headstart, I can safely say the game has it's high points and low points.  It isn't WoW, that much is certain, but it isn't different enough to keep me entertained for an extended period of time.  The fundamental problem, much like how it was when Everquest was the thing, too many games try to be like the topdog and don't make enough adjustments to distance themselves far enough from the game to attract those that are bored with the current big game.  WoW became boring to me after Burning Crusade, but I continued to play it because there was nothing else.  I did my breaks to try out new games, but each time I got bored and ended up going back to WoW.  Fortunately, now, that isn't the case.  I'm playing DDO on and off (mainly weekends).  It is enough to keep me distracted until GW2 or ToR.

With that being said, I'm watching what Trion does with Rift.  Heck, I may end up giving it another shot if ToR isn't released until the end of the year. (they're shooting for the second half of the year from what a blog said, basically June-Dec)

Rift is good, but it is no WoW, however; it isn't "new" either.

Those things aren't unique to WoW.  Any game with some sort of competitive nature or ways to measure "skill"; will always have people that have nothing better to do than brag.  Its the whol "hey, i gots internets and can act anyway I want" syndrome.

Days like that make me wish WoW, or < insert other PVE MMO here >, had unrestricted PvP.

Originally posted by needalife214

Originally posted by Roguewiz

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Roguewiz

I've always found it rather ironic that players of other MMOs get up in-arms when a potentially good MMO goes into development.  It happened when EQ was the big daddy and everyone else were small fries.  EQ players ridiculed DAoC for being too EQ-like and WoW for being too "kiddy".  Now, WoW players ridicule other MMOs for being too WoW-like or not being accessible enough (I've seen the later).

WoW, sadly, is going nowhere.  It will remain the big dog on the market until a bigger name is released.  Honestly speaking, SWTOR has that potential; but so did a slew of other games.  Only time will tell.  The execution of the game is what will make or break it.  If the game is released unpolished with bugs, lag, balance issues, and excessive downtime; then SWTOR will be doomed.  However, if it is released with minimal issues (it can happen.  DAoC had a good released...despite the balance issues); the SWTOR will thrive.  It won't kill WoW, but it won't be killed by WoW either.  SWTOR is going to be a nice alternative.

To be successful in today's finicky market, a new MMO must:

- Have minimal bugs.  At least, no huge glaring bugs.  You know, the game stopping kind

- Balance issues:  frankly, balance is difficult to have in of itself, but thats what beta is for.  To find these issues and get them as close to balanced as possible.

- Stability and Downtime: Downtime is bound to happen during the first month of a game.  Stability is essential.  If the game is up for 6 hrs a day; it will not maintain customers.

- "Final" Product:  Last thing we want to see is features removed at the last moment or a huge patch to slow down leveling the day after the game is released.  I won't mention the names of the MMOs that did such things. =p

I went a little off-track.  Basically, to sum it up:  SWTOR isn't another WoW.  There are fundamental aspects that are in all MMOs that can't being ignored.  Just beacuse SWTOR has a mini-map and quests, doesn't mean it is WoW.  It just means those two features are so important, that an MMO without them is making a big mistake.

I've tried all the major MMOs that have been released in the US since EQ "died" (yea, I know.  It is still going, but it "died" for me long ago).

I don't think the MMO market is finicky.  Players just expect good games.  Largely that's minimum bugs, good stability, polished AND fun gameplay.  I think balance is actually an issue people are very forgiving about.  There's not one game I'm aware of that failed because of ONLY balance issues.  There are plenty of games that failed because they had only one of the other problems.

Really the MMO market has been plagued with largely crappy games since WoW.  I think over the next 12 months we'll be seeing that change.  ToR, GW2, FFXIV, and others should be high quality games.  I don't think any game will ever dominate the market the way WoW is doing right now, not even WoW.  The current situation is as much about lack of good competition as anything else.

 Of that, I will agree.  There won't be another "WoW".  WoW is an abnormality.  People were tired of EQ and the subsquent "clones" that came after it. 

I totally agree that the market needs some good competition.  WoW has gotten bland.  The fantasy genre in general is just too boring now.  We need something new.  We need something Sci-Fi.  The problem is that good Sci-fi games just don't exist at the moment.  (I don't consider Eve good).  SWTOR looks to fill that gap.

SWTOR, GW2, and FFXIV look to make some nice changes and hopefully give some competition to WoW.  However, I'd recommend removing GW2 from the "competition" aspect seeing as how it is going to be F2P.  So that pretty much leaves SWTOR and FFXIV, both of which have a much wider fanbase IMHO.  WoW fanobi'ism is rampant, but not as much as the Star Wars geek!

i would never count out GW2...as guildwars for many is still a main MMO and there is no need to pay for a game...GW2 will bring what these other MMOs have to offer in a B2P package...it wont be free just no monthly sub.

counting out GW2 is a poor thing to do as GW was very popular and to think that it wont pull some subs away from these P2P game is just being dumb.

hell if SWTOR doesn't have space combat then GW2 offers the same thing just with better PvP concepts and a changing world...with no monthly sub

 I don't totally discount GW2.  I'm just skeptical an a F2P model MMO in the US.  It will be difficult to give an accurate count on actively played subs as opposed to people that play for a month here and there.  If they can make the F2P model work, maintain content, and keep the persistant world going; then that definitely puts GW2 in contention.

My issue is, seeing as I've played GW, is outside of the PvP aspect; you can "beat" the game rather quickly.  Thus the replay value isn't as high as a true MMO.  GW2 may be a different beast, but how much can a game without a subscription really do in terms of competition when someone can easily have both a sub-based game and GW2, going?

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Roguewiz

I've always found it rather ironic that players of other MMOs get up in-arms when a potentially good MMO goes into development.  It happened when EQ was the big daddy and everyone else were small fries.  EQ players ridiculed DAoC for being too EQ-like and WoW for being too "kiddy".  Now, WoW players ridicule other MMOs for being too WoW-like or not being accessible enough (I've seen the later).

WoW, sadly, is going nowhere.  It will remain the big dog on the market until a bigger name is released.  Honestly speaking, SWTOR has that potential; but so did a slew of other games.  Only time will tell.  The execution of the game is what will make or break it.  If the game is released unpolished with bugs, lag, balance issues, and excessive downtime; then SWTOR will be doomed.  However, if it is released with minimal issues (it can happen.  DAoC had a good released...despite the balance issues); the SWTOR will thrive.  It won't kill WoW, but it won't be killed by WoW either.  SWTOR is going to be a nice alternative.

To be successful in today's finicky market, a new MMO must:

- Have minimal bugs.  At least, no huge glaring bugs.  You know, the game stopping kind

- Balance issues:  frankly, balance is difficult to have in of itself, but thats what beta is for.  To find these issues and get them as close to balanced as possible.

- Stability and Downtime: Downtime is bound to happen during the first month of a game.  Stability is essential.  If the game is up for 6 hrs a day; it will not maintain customers.

- "Final" Product:  Last thing we want to see is features removed at the last moment or a huge patch to slow down leveling the day after the game is released.  I won't mention the names of the MMOs that did such things. =p

I went a little off-track.  Basically, to sum it up:  SWTOR isn't another WoW.  There are fundamental aspects that are in all MMOs that can't being ignored.  Just beacuse SWTOR has a mini-map and quests, doesn't mean it is WoW.  It just means those two features are so important, that an MMO without them is making a big mistake.

I've tried all the major MMOs that have been released in the US since EQ "died" (yea, I know.  It is still going, but it "died" for me long ago).

I don't think the MMO market is finicky.  Players just expect good games.  Largely that's minimum bugs, good stability, polished AND fun gameplay.  I think balance is actually an issue people are very forgiving about.  There's not one game I'm aware of that failed because of ONLY balance issues.  There are plenty of games that failed because they had only one of the other problems.

Really the MMO market has been plagued with largely crappy games since WoW.  I think over the next 12 months we'll be seeing that change.  ToR, GW2, FFXIV, and others should be high quality games.  I don't think any game will ever dominate the market the way WoW is doing right now, not even WoW.  The current situation is as much about lack of good competition as anything else.

 Of that, I will agree.  There won't be another "WoW".  WoW is an abnormality.  People were tired of EQ and the subsquent "clones" that came after it. 

I totally agree that the market needs some good competition.  WoW has gotten bland.  The fantasy genre in general is just too boring now.  We need something new.  We need something Sci-Fi.  The problem is that good Sci-fi games just don't exist at the moment.  (I don't consider Eve good).  SWTOR looks to fill that gap.

SWTOR, GW2, and FFXIV look to make some nice changes and hopefully give some competition to WoW.  However, I'd recommend removing GW2 from the "competition" aspect seeing as how it is going to be F2P.  So that pretty much leaves SWTOR and FFXIV, both of which have a much wider fanbase IMHO.  WoW fanobi'ism is rampant, but not as much as the Star Wars geek!

I've always found it rather ironic that players of other MMOs get up in-arms when a potentially good MMO goes into development.  It happened when EQ was the big daddy and everyone else were small fries.  EQ players ridiculed DAoC for being too EQ-like and WoW for being too "kiddy".  Now, WoW players ridicule other MMOs for being too WoW-like or not being accessible enough (I've seen the later).

WoW, sadly, is going nowhere.  It will remain the big dog on the market until a bigger name is released.  Honestly speaking, SWTOR has that potential; but so did a slew of other games.  Only time will tell.  The execution of the game is what will make or break it.  If the game is released unpolished with bugs, lag, balance issues, and excessive downtime; then SWTOR will be doomed.  However, if it is released with minimal issues (it can happen.  DAoC had a good released...despite the balance issues); the SWTOR will thrive.  It won't kill WoW, but it won't be killed by WoW either.  SWTOR is going to be a nice alternative.

To be successful in today's finicky market, a new MMO must:

- Have minimal bugs.  At least, no huge glaring bugs.  You know, the game stopping kind

- Balance issues:  frankly, balance is difficult to have in of itself, but thats what beta is for.  To find these issues and get them as close to balanced as possible.

- Stability and Downtime: Downtime is bound to happen during the first month of a game.  Stability is essential.  If the game is up for 6 hrs a day; it will not maintain customers.

- "Final" Product:  Last thing we want to see is features removed at the last moment or a huge patch to slow down leveling the day after the game is released.  I won't mention the names of the MMOs that did such things. =p

I went a little off-track.  Basically, to sum it up:  SWTOR isn't another WoW.  There are fundamental aspects that are in all MMOs that can't being ignored.  Just beacuse SWTOR has a mini-map and quests, doesn't mean it is WoW.  It just means those two features are so important, that an MMO without them is making a big mistake.

I've tried all the major MMOs that have been released in the US since EQ "died" (yea, I know.  It is still going, but it "died" for me long ago).

Originally posted by orangerascal

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

I cannot see Starcraft falling into that category since it isnt twitch based. It does require user input, and it is real time, but it features many different challenges found in the traditional MMO.

 

Starcraft is about as 'twitchy' as they come. It's not a coincidence that the best players in the world have APM's that hit 400+. (That's actions per minute for those not in the know). You know what 400 APM's are, its 6-7 mouseclicks/keystrokes per second. SC pro's go through a regiment that trains their eye-to-hand coordination to move that quickly. In korea you can hire coaches that improve this aspect of gameplay and these coaches are highly sought after.

Most newbies think starcraft is just a strategy game. It's not. Yes, there are stategic elements to starcraft like using the best units to counter your oppoenents units, but even the worst counter units can stand a chance if your micro-management is very good. Also starcraft's strategy is very limited as everyone has a pretty good idea of the best units to counter other units. Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.

-------------------------------

As for 'skills',  'skills' come in a variety of packages including

- group synergy

- situation awareness

- game knowledge

- twitch reflexes

- command experience

 

Look at any professional team like spain's football team. Each player including coaches will have great expertise in one or more of the following aforementioned attributes.

 You're oversimplifying what Starcraft is.  Starcraft, on some level outside of "professional" gaming, is about getting the cheapest units out the quickest possible to overrun your opponent before they start producing more.  Thus, it is about the zerg (not the race),

Games don't necessarily have to move towards an FPS style game.  I can do the PvE side of a FPS-type game.  However, from the PvP-side, I don't like it.  (Yes, I like PvP, just not FPS PvP).

Of course, with that being said, Everquest-style auto-attack and /afk doesn't work for me either.  Generally speaking, there needs to be something that keeps you occupied while at the keyboard.  To some extent, I don't really like the current favored system of attack and mash buttons. 

For the most part, I like re-active combat.  Example: Ability A triggers Ability B or C, which in turn triggers a final ability.  Heroic opportunities from EQ2 is a fine example of something I enjoy.  Outside of that, the only other combat system I like is a fully active system.  City of Heroes, Champions, and DDO are examples of this.  It requires a little more skill than just going through a simple rotation of 4-5 buttons because deviating from that rotation drops your dps.

So argueably speaking, some MMOs are implenting some level of "skill" requirement.  However, this quickly gets adjusted to better accommodate the less skilled or casual player.  You know, the ones that don't have time to do research on what abilities to take, or just go "hey, that sounds ability sounds cool" and selects something that isn't necessarily a good choice.

Concept/Flavor builds anyone?

Do I want MMOs to be more challenging and require more skill?  Most definitely.  Do I want to be able to play them for an extended period of time?  Yes.

The problem with that is, both things are difficult to accomplish.  If the game is too difficult, I'll enjoy it more, but the game will die due to lack of players.  Difficult games turn players away and aren't accessible to the lesser skilled or the casual player.

The reverse of that is true as well.  Games that are too easy tend to turn away even the casual player, and are avoided like the plague by the more "hard-core" players.

A balance of the two is necessary.  Being able to defeat an encounter should be something anyone can do.  Being able able to defeat the same encounter AND knit a scarf while doing the jig is something a more skilled player should be able to do.  =)

Change from the perspective of new content, new features, ect; is fundamentally ok.  The problem though lies with knee-jerk reactions to things, or, heavy-handed nerfing.  The concept of "nerf it into oblivion and fix it later" is what most people get more upset about.  Generally, this is due to misguided attempts by developers to add something new, but without realizing that while their internal testing may not have found any problems; gamers will find a way to "break" it and exploit it to their desire.

The sad thing is that most nerfs stem from the vocal few that post on forums and whine that their Tanklike-Warrior got beat down by a Tanklike-Druid right after a certain expansion that raised the level cap to a number higher than 69, but lower than 71.

Kidding aside, change are a necessity, but need to be approached with more caution that what is normally given.  A quick change to appease the vocal populous will only anger the other half that don't post or are part of the problem that the vocal people are whining about =)

"Failure to kill WoW is not a failure for a new MMO."

While SOE made mistakes, or should I say, THE biggest mistake ever; one mistake doesn't define a company.  They have their good points.  Despite your feeling about Everquest, the game was a major success for a long time.  Does it compare to WoW's success?  No.  WoW is an abnormality in the MMO market.  It doesn't happen often and will probably never happen again.  The general consensus is that 250k+ subscriptions is a "success".  However, the trick is maintaining that.  Take Warhammer.  At the gate, it was a success.  However misteps and failures on Mythic's part have made the game a failure.

Will SWTOR kill WoW?  No.  Will it be an enjoyeable alternative to a bland game?  Yes.

Just for the record, I don't hate WoW.  I just don't enjoy it as much as I used to.  I need something "new".

I'd like to point out an article Jon Wood made last year.  Scroll down and Read #1.

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/3092/page/2

With that being said, WoW is a clone of everything and we need to quit playing and get out more!

Just kidding....

Gotta love those "X game is like Y game" arguements.  Nothing more than fanbois trying to defend their game because they're bored at work or can't login.

SWTOR isn't a "WoW Clone".  Granted, it won't be completely different from WoW either.  The greatest complement to a game is when another developer says "hey, I like that idea" and implements it.  Now, granted, most of WoW's ideas aren't necessarily fresh ideas either.  They're basic concepts that are needed.  Minimaps, hotbars, ect.  Hell, argueably, that don't really have anything universally fresh and new.  They've merely borrowed something and built upon it.  Take the queue from anywhere feature for battlegrounds.  Warhammer had that first.  WoW implemented it and built on it to included dungeons.

It doesn't matter in the end.  SWTOR is going to release and take some of WoW's business.  That is a good thing.  We need competition in the MMO market.  For a long time, it was only EQ.  Then other MMOs came out and offered some competition.  The competition at this time was great.  However, once WoW was released, and they fixed their problems after release; the competition died/is dying.  SWTOR is potentially the first real threat that WoW has seen.  Granted, that is said about every potentially good game.  It is just a matter of if Bioware can make good on what they want to do and not decide to drop certain classes, races, and cities out of the game at the last possible moment. (I'm not bittter...really)

I'm currently "playing" WoW to some extent as a distraction.  I'm looking forward to both FF XIV and SWTOR.

Originally posted by rmk70

Oh wow. Some of those prints on the clothing are direct rip-offs of CoH... I wonder if that's okay given that they originally made it but don't own it anymore?

 

Other than that, looks neat.

Perhaps, but a lot of the decals that CoH has aren't necessarily original either.  They are taken from various games, lore, books, whatnot =p

On a side note, but somewhat related, I've heard that the NDA was recenly lifted (per another MMO fan site).  Can this be confirmed?  If so, that means Open Beta is coming Soon^TM.

I always giggle when I see someone post "omg, if they're stupid enough to do that; they deserve to die".  It makes you wonder if they truely believe the crap they are posting on the forums, or if they're only trying to rile someone up since they're nothing more than an anonymous person posting on a public forum.

Regardless of the reasons behind it, if a person dies because of gaming too much; then it is their own fault.  However, going as far to say "ah, they deserved it"; is too much and extremely narrow minded and cruel.

* leaps on the soapbox *

Disclaimers are used to greatly reduce the liability of the company.  Take "superman capes" capes for example.  The "this cape does not enable you to fly" might have been there from the start, but it makes you think; if it wasn't, then some poor happless fool tried to fly.  Disclaimers are already in place.  "Gaming Experience may change during online play" is an all-encompassing disclaimer.  That alone should suffice.

If you're a parent and you know your child suffers from hyperactivity, depression, gets bullied at school, and/or doesn't have a lot of friends; then by buying them a game to keep them occupied is no different than handing them a loaded gun.  You're putting a bad thing into an already dangerous situation.  The same goes for adults that buy them games for themselves.

It is one thing to play a MMO for entertainment, and to take your mind off real-life stuff. It is something different entirely when that entertainment becomes your life. If you find yourself thinking that your life in the game is better than your real-life, then you need to quit the game immeditally.  When I was playing Everquest, I found myself playing the game more than anything else.  3-4hrs of sleep when you're 18-19yrs old isn't very healthy.  I was always "calling in sick" to work, just to play the game/raid.  I've lost jobs because of my incompetence.  I began viewing my ingame friends with more regard than my RL friends  Eventually I quit, and moved on.  However, I look back on it and realize; if I was a weaker person, what would I have done?  It scares me to think about it.  I'm quite a bit older now, and I've substantially cut back the amount of time I spend gaming during the week. (Weekends are a totally different demon =p ).  I generally only spend 2-3hrs in game now during any given weekday.  I probably only play 10-12hrs max during a normal work week.  Weekends will be longer, but it saves me money =p.  I'm better off now because of my limitations I imposed.

Use common sense and impose your onwn restrictions.  Don't rely on the government or the game developer to do it for you.  If you have a reliable family member, ask them to do it for you.

* gets off soapbox and goes back to working *

Right now, WoW is the most entertaining game on the market.  It has a huge following, and Blizzard does deliver.  I won't say it is my favorite, there are aspects I like and dislike, however I will say nothing else compares at the present time.

Originally posted by m3ta

Originally posted by Roguewiz

I really wish people would quit making "I quit" or "why I quit" posts.  They are a waste of your time.  We don't care why you quit.  We aren't going to miraculously "see the light" and follow suit.  If you don't like WAR.  Fine.  Real PvP isn't for everyone.

Please, just leave quietly.

 

WAR isn't "real" PVP.

Real PVP is Eve, where you lose a ship and think "hmm i just lost 1 month of work".

In WAR? 15 minutes, or you pay to get healed.

That's PVP for kids.

 

I really can't comment much on Eve.  I played it briefly, but it wasn't my cup of tea.  WAR is "real" PvP when compared to WoW PvP.
 

I don't define real PvP by what penalty your are assessed for dying/losing.  While WAR doesn't have a harsh penalty, the PvP is more meaningful than some other games.  I use WoW as an example, since people frequenlty make comparisons between the two.  WoW PvP is based upon 2v2/3v3/5v5 Arenas.  In these Arenas, you compete for gear.  Sure, the e-peen "I'm better than you" aspect is quite prevailent; but outside of that, the PvP is relatively watered down.  At least with WoW, you can actually wage a WAR; as the name says; Warhammer.  The "war" in Warcraft doesn't really exist.

Now, we were to use your example as what "real" PvP is; Shadowbane had it.  Imagine spending months and boat loads of cash to build a great city; just to have it annihalated in a few hours. (MGA > BoS)

I really wish people would quit making "I quit" or "why I quit" posts.  They are a waste of your time.  We don't care why you quit.  We aren't going to miraculously "see the light" and follow suit.  If you don't like WAR.  Fine.  Real PvP isn't for everyone.

Please, just leave quietly.