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All Posts by Helleri

All Posts by Helleri

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705 posts found
Black desert is...Super shady to say the least. Gala Inc. likes to take the money and run, then pretend nothing happened. They have an F rating with the BBB and have taken sooooo, much of their customers money. (Duam has done business with Gala inc. So I don't trust them by extension, because historically Gala inc. only does business with itself even if it looks not to be the case on the surface. And, I especially don't trust Duam since they have picked up other licenses that it seems they didn't originally develop).



This is an area of deep interest for me that I have studied exhaustively...


MMO = Any Massive Multi-player Online Experience.

The problem with this term is while it lets something like Second Life into the mix. It also technically (though likely not by common acceptance, and rightfully so) lets things like face book onto the list. It's an umbrella term (and a bad one at that) which makes sure we didn't miss anything that is on the fringe but should probably still be considered as part of the broader genre.

While these tend to have socializing as their core. They also tend to enable that with building and user created content. And so we end up with MORPG on these platforms, using them as both the engine and hosting service.



MMOG = Any Massive Multi-player Online Experience that had the by design outset of being a game.

This is a much better umbrella term which includes most things we would consider Massive, Multi-player, Online, And Games. It's one failing as a term is that it threatens to leave out fringe entities (like social MMO's). That while not strictly fitting into the category as a whole. Often contain things within them that would.

Under this we get things like MMOS, MMORPG, MOBA (league of legends) etc.

These are all types of online games you can play alongside a lot of other people.


I highly suspect that the major terminology confusion for the broader/parent genre. Is due to not having a good way of accurately categorizing Social MMO's and other things that are, Pseudo-games. They seem to fulfill at least the major part of the same basic interests and major markers. But they miss on some crucial factors. Good organization sort of demands we include them somehow. But, finding a practical way of doing so is difficult at best. Because, they amorphous.


Science has faced a similar issue with states of matter:




Good enough? Nope!

There are also liquids that sometimes behave like solids and solids that sometimes behave as liquids. As well gas gasses that are solid. What is ketchup? A liquid? kind of...more like an Anti-Newtonian-Liquid (A liquid which behaves as a solid when at rest but when kinetically energized behaves as a liquid).

Originally posted by Quazal.A



Without doubt was neverwinter and their keys for boxes and the fact that after release the hackers had screwed the game that much and yet us that had spent a few ££s (not all of us live in the $$$ worlds so please no more $1 should be £1) got zero back in return.

in a close run second was Snail games and Age of Wushu whilst i didn't buy it, the fact the mount only had a limited time (game time and real life)  this was to me nothing but a cash grab idea.


Best would be either

Plex in CCP / Eve

AoC and the extra baggage space , and one or 2 other little things. like using the ingame shop to buy packs etc - As i used to play game when it was month subs, paying the odd few quid here and there for some nice to have felt about right for me

I recently tried Neverwinter. I had made an account some time ago but somehow forgot it was a game I wanted to try. I can see what you mean about those boxes. When i got my first one I was suspicious because I was such low level and it felt like a potential rare drop the way it presented itself. It was probably niave to think I would get a key drop at some point, lol...But, I held onto it. 70 something boxes later I sold them to the general outfitter for 8 copper ea.


I figured out by the 5th or 6th one that this was micro-bait. however I also figured one more stackable I can sell in bulk for potions *shrug*.


as for plex in EVE...I like it better in runescape as Bonds :P

Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
I've never used a cash shop and likely never will.  

You have never even purchased an item in game from another player that was potential bought from a cash shop?

With the $1.00 thing. I think you make a good argument for why so many people would want it. But we have to ask if that's actually healthy for a game. In post #14 I feel I made a pretty good half example, half supposition, on the value of having pricier items (not exclusively but mixed in with the bunch).

There is a danger in people not having to think about their purchases. It means they are more likely to get items that they are not happy with regardless of what they paid. And, that they may be more likely to overstep what they would have paid otherwise. Also (and to the point of post #14 again). If every thing is relatively the same price. Then the cash shops potential as a tool to non-intrusively adjust desired behavior towards the ends of game balance is mitigated heavily.
Can they, for their cost into the item afford to sell it cheap as long as they sell a lot of copies? yeah, probably. But, being able to take %70 off an experience mark for low levels so you know that in a week you will have x% of new players at mid level. That's a powerful ability for influencing the game that is totally nerfed if you do it on a $1.00 item as apposed to a $20.00 item.

And, the file size of an item does matter. it matters a lot. yes, it only takes its strict file size to sit in an asset library. But, the transmission of that data. Calling it up and having a player render it. using hooks in its code to send data back on the items use. Making sure that this item communicates with the player using it, the players observing or being effected by it, and the server as a middle man. In each instance that this occurs you have an exponential increase to that static in asset library cost.


If you have ever built something on a social MMO you are likely aware that you can only have so many things within a single cell space. Beyond which you get lag (sometimes well within this limit). That because every surface you have to render, every texture you have to load, every animation or sound you have to play has a cost per instance. a weight. And, while the capacity of what a server can handle can be great, it is finite. In social MMO's we are often made aware of what we can and can't do in this way, because it's pertinent, as it is largely users filling in the content. In a full blown MMORPG we are not because, that is controlled by the developers. It doesn't mean information over area doesn't exist or have an effect. We just don't see it.

So, one really good reason for making a mount $20+ (which usually has character mesh weight near that of character models, and also tends to have high resolution textures, sounds, animations, and even particle effects). Is because you know what percentage of your users will spend how much. And, you want to regulate the density. No more then x number of these things within an area of x size at any one time, or people start lagging. This isn't something you guess at. It's something you know.


That's interesting. I am almost the opposite. I am a Runescape player. And I know every one has 28 inventory slots (effectively up to double that if they have trained their summoning way up for beasts of burden. But, that's more of a temporary modifier for grinding or bossing, that is earned in game). And, if I don't like my characters hair, base outfit, skin color, or even gender. All of these things are free to change fluidly as much as I want (even character name for members. But they place a limiter of 28 days in between changing it, and on your friend's lists there will be an icon during that time that shows what you were last known as, the old name is also held in reserve for 30 full days before it's free for someone else to pick.)

And, if I don't like being on the server I am on for what ever reason, I just exist to lobby and choose another from the list. There is no charge and I don't think about it. Also the default members bank is around 400 slots. They do sell 50 slot bank boosters (and members get on free). But if you need it... you have a hoarding issue. especially since 70% of your would be bank inventory can be stored in player owned houses (entirely aside from the bank). Even manageries for your pets, and bookshelves for the interesting lore you have found.

So when I see other games charging for things that over 13 years I have operated off the basis of simply being entitled to as a matter of common sense. That is the thing in a l;ot of MMORPG that gets to me.


Aika was my personal worst experience. I have not played Atlantica Online. I have heard the name before. But, not even having seen screenshot I am willing to wager I guess at what kind of game pulls down that kind of cash. An overtly generic 4Ex that is available on most mobile platforms and prompts the player for money to speed up the process on just about everything? That would make sense to me.

...The game I would expect someone like Kim Kardashian to play. And, illustrating why I would expect that:

I saw exactly one episode of that show. She was on vacation with some other people or something and lost an earing at the bottom of the ocean...a $75,000 earing! And, not the combined cost even mind you. That was the break down cost of the one she lost. But, all was well. Because, the water was so absolutely pristine that her bf could see it sitting on the ocean floor and dove down to retrieve it....I threw my hands up in the air, walked away and never gave that show a single second more of viewing.

I mean I live off maybe $12.000 a year. Half my existence is barter and trade (small life but I am happy with it). But, I see something like that. 1 earing that not only could I live off the sale of for 5 years but also have enough left over to support something like...I dunno an orphanage/abandoned womens home in India (I think currently $1.60 use is about 50 rupies over there which is enough for basic living expenses for 1 month and 1 person)... I just. like I said I threw my hands up and walked away.

thanks...btw, you can't really see it in the pictures well. But, I am wearing a cape you might want if you remember your old account info. 10-year vet cape. which as the name would suggest. If your account is 10 years or older you can pick up one for yourself (there only a couple 100k). Hans in Lumbridge  has them.


Also. I wouldn't call runescape a sandbox exactly. While the world does change around character decision. It's perspective based. To some people, some towns have lumps of rock. To others (who have done the monthly content for this) those chunks of rock are god statues. Some players see edgeville as normal. Others see it raised to the ground. And, it's based on how far you have gotten in the quest lines. There are a lot of things like this. Where the player has made a mark on the world. but only as far as their character is concerned. I would say more correctly runescape is a non-linear/open world, themepark that does have some sandbox elements.

Okay....So, it's only semi MMORPG related. But, today I turned 32 and like I have in past years (more or less thereabouts of my birthday. And, this year on it) I had a little party on my MMORPG of choice Runescape. I bought myself a few presents (sky pouncer pet, and a couple emotes)...But, I also bought this thing called a party box. Which is a really fun feature that I am going to talk about in a bit here (kind of a forced pretense, but cut me some slack it's my b-day, lol) :



So, in the tradition of a good Runescape party there were drops of course. I dropped god swords, maybe about 10mil total broken up over the hour the party lasted and quite a few other things. It even devolved into an all out drop party -probably at least 70mil hit the ground- (this is world-2 at the grand exchange, which is about on of the busiest locations in the game with a lot of high levels that loiter there. So, when you drop a few good things yourself. It's often contagious)...


But, the real star of the party was this little box i picked up with some spare loyalty points (loyalty points being rewards for consecutive months of membership). It didn't matter that 30-40 of the 200 or so present got significantly wealthier....People wanted more cake.


So, what's with this box? Well to the owner it dispenses 3 items. Those being, cake, a music box, and a cake hat. The cake can be withdrawn as much as the owner of the box wants within the hour that the box remains usable. It can be 'served' to other players simply by setting it out. A player can come up and take a piece...And inexplicably greedy players tend to take several (often polishing off a cake by themselves.  It is not especially good food. But, it's fun.  The music box can be set out and when clicked on by any player their character starts dancing as override music plays. And the cake hat is worn by the party thrower. Players can offer congrats to a player when the hat is worn (which is something of an awkward bro-half-hug animation).


And, remaining in the box left out are party poppers, wine, party blowers, and sparklers, that players can continually extract and use. After an hour of use the box vanishes (consumed).


So, do you like fun features like this?

Have you obtained any in games you've played and how did you feel about the value?

What is your favorite version of something like this in another game?


Originally posted by Enphoria
Lol. It most certainly was a joke. I wasn't trying to flame the poster or insinuate on getting a life. I didn't assume a joke would be takin up by such swift stiffness though.. :(

You call your 'joke game' Imagination. As if that is the thing the OP is missing. And, as if they can't have that regardless of what game they play. If your 'joke' wasn't mocking the OP's pursuit of a new title to play. If it wasn't coming on a games forum and being suggestive of gaming being futile. Then what was it? Honestly, I felt it was also mocking my choice of format for that response. As if the way I chose to put it was needless (when it actually a very common way people handle replying here, addressing things in a 1-to-1 manner).


This can be analogized like so:

An American on Vacation in Italy walks into an association football (soccer) outfitter and says loudly to no one in specific "Hey where can I buy a real football?"


Do you see what I am getting at here?

Originally posted by AlBQuirky


Originally posted by Helleri
I really want to know where people are getting this nothing over $1.00 idea. Because:


1) It's arbitrary. How is that the right price? what is so special about $1.00

2) It totally ignores that mesh weight, amount of textures, resolutions of those textures, degree of coding and plethora of other factors gives each item in a game a unique weight that is quantifiable (though we don't usually have disclosed to us exactly how). And, therefor has cost to offering it in the first place and continuing to support it.

For me (I mentioned $5), I have the gauge of the "old way" where $30 bought THE WHOLE GAME and $15 every month allowed you to log in.


3 Items at $5 each makes $15, what I used to pay to play the THE WHOLE GAME.

This nickle and dime... no, more like $10 and $20 crap is getting old.

So, for you. It's a by comparison thing. That makes sense. Given that not a lot of game makers a prone to disclose how they landed on their 'just-right-price'. A lot of what we have to go off of is by comparison.  Thank you for outlining the reasoning behind yours.


Personally... I am not apposed to paying $10-$20 for content (and especially if I don't pay into a game in another way). But, once we hit this mark. I want it to actually be useful at the same time. That isn't the kind of money I want to spend on something that is a one-off or a cosmetic.


A good for instance is that I paid $20 for my Dicker Max in WoT. I have have had about 400 games in it. And, at guesstimate of the average game being about 8-10 minutes (sounds about right anyway). That means I've paid around $0.30 per hour of entertainment derived from this vehicle. Not bad. I feel I have gotten my monies worth. Now, had that been some sort of purely cosmetic item that I pad that much for. I might be looking at it now thinking "why the heck did I buy this".


I am thinking usefulness has to increase alongside cost. And, not just so people feel the value. But, it also puts items that if used so commonly, might hurt a game, in shorter supply.  If  a dicker max was $1.00 or $5.00...Matchmaking would be absolutely screwed over at tier 6. But, because it's $20. Less people have them. And, because there is other things for a comparable price. People make the choice for a different kind of tank entirely. And, so premium tanks become an interesting modifier to match making. But, not something that breaks it.


Also, What if they look at their matchmaking statistics and say hey...something is a little off. We need to see more tanks like X in this tier of matchmaking...what do they do? well they could nerf a set of tanks to make players more likely to play the tanks that are healthy for match making (which will anger a lot of people). Or they can put a premium that fits the bill on sale. Which will...really only make a few sour pusses who still don't have enough money upset. But, just as many people happy. And longer term every one a bit more happy because of better balance. But, only keeping that vehicle at a price they know X% of their player base can't afford most of the time lets them adjust things like this.


I don't think it's as black and white as being greedy. I think developers also must use the 'right-prices' to help regulate the health of a game. And, so it comes back it being fair to ask for a change in general method. Or to ask for justification of pricing. But, not really fair or any more then near sighted to ask for blanket prices, that we have no clue what the potential long stretching effects of will be.

Originally posted by Enphoria

I would recommend the best RPG of all. Imagination. Millions of people play it daily. 


-PVE Focused

All you have to do is choose PVE mode. 

-Few to No Instances

None if you don't want them. 

-Forced Grouping and dependency on other players (preferably because others are different and make up for your weaknesses)

You can make as many friends as you want and force them to do what you want. 

-Isn't endgame focused

This isn't about endgame at all. 

-Takes a LONG time to get to endgame

Oh, let me just say it could take your entire life. 

-Choosing a race has consequences (it's not just aesthetics).

It sure can. Pick the wrong race and everyone will hate you. 

-Good Story

The best part about the story here, is you can take it wherever you want. 

-Harsh Death Penalty

Well if you die that's it buddy. Games over forever. 

I'm not sure if this is serious or a joke. If this isn't being completely sarcastic and your talking about a game that exists. You haven't made a solid argument for it. If your coming on the forums and flaming a poster about needing to 'pick a book'  or 'get a life'...that is a really bad move here.

Because, your so very specific. I don't think it's fair to outright any MMORPG as exactly right for you. However, I can tell you how my MMORPG of Choice ( Runescape )compares:

- PVE Focused

Though there is PvP present in the game. It's simply not as popular as it used to be. And even about half the forms of PvP are safe PvP and so in effect are PvE.

-Few to No Instances

The only true instancing in the game is done within some of the highest level boss fights and Deamonhiem (an area off to the side of the main game in which you practice dungeoneering, which is practically it's own game within the game).

-Forced Grouping and dependency on other players (preferably because others are different and make up for your weaknesses)

While there are activities players can do as a group, or are encouraged to do as a group. Aside from some of the toughest bosses in the game. And, maybe 3 quests total. You are capable of making your way solo (though I wouldn't recommend doing so).

-Isn't endgame focused

While there is a strong end game. When Jagex updates and patches they do so unilaterally. It's a game that can very much be as entertaining at level cap as it as on the first day of playing.

-Takes a LONG time to get to endgame

26 skills (soon to be 27) all of which go to level 99 (accept dung which for some odd reason goes to 120).  Many of these skills can take as much time to cap any one of them as it does to cap a character in a lot of other MMORPG.

-Choosing a race has consequences (it's not just aesthetics).

There is 1 race. do end up sort of becoming other races throughout the game during questing temporarily. This one is yellow because with the dawn of the 6th age. Player choice of alignment is starting to matter a lot more. We are starting to see the emergence of opt-in factions.

-Good Story

You would be hard pressed to find deeper or richer multi-faceted lore then is present in runescape. And the way quests are done that tell you that story...You will be spoiled on questing in other games after (to the point where you may not consider most other games to even contain quests).

-Harsh Death Penalty

If your smart. if you stay on your game. If you are well prepared. And, act quickly when you die.  The death penalty really isn't that harsh in PvE. It is more of an inconvenience. At least at low higher levels though it very much can be.  It can be absolutely soul crushingly, rage quit for a month, brutal.

What are your Qualifiers and Deal Breakers?
Originally posted by PorkNails

first lets get clean about cash shops. Paying for server transfers, character remaking, name changing, thats not cash shop.

Just wanted to say something about that part of what you said...

While these things are not necessarily cash shop based. They, can be. And, they often are. I have seen a good number of  MMORPG that sell things like character makeovers and renames as tokens from their cash shop (often trade-able, always consumable). One popular item like this seems to be the mercenary token. This one I have seen a lot more of lately. It basically lets you sell a character from your account to another players account. However, one thing from that lot, that I can't recall ever seeing as a cash shop item, is the ability to get a server transfer.

My constant for the last 13 years has been Runescape. I do neglect it occasionally for other MMORPG (usually no more then 20 days). Even so I tend to pop in at least for a bit each day for upkeep purposes. It keeps things fresh to try something new. To have a different style of graphics in front of me. I would have probably burnt out on my MMORPG of choice years ago if I didn't take little breaks. But, no matter what I play I am a one character per game type of player.
Originally posted by TangentPoint


Question is in the title, though I'm not referring to the click-to-move system. I don't mind that.

What I'm referring to is the wonky, drunken way your character gets around. Click on a location straight ahead of you, and they run in a zig-zag, starting and stopping.. turning and running into nearby walls or fences, then turning and going the correct way.

The new graphics look great (considering the platform/language the game is built on). The new camera is smooth and very nice. But I can't understand why they haven't improved the character navigation in the world itself? It seems like there's a grid of navigation nodes or something, and your character finds its path by moving between them. It actually makes playing the game extremely unpleasant.. for me anyway. I suppose you get used to it after a while, but I'm not sure why they'd want to keep it that way deliberately?

The Path finding mechanics in the game  are actually fairly solid (the environment, not so much in outdated areas. As a for instance compare ease of movement in Al Kharid to that of Falador...And, better design in environment is something they are constantly working on). Given how a lot of MMORPG's handle movement. There is something of a learning curve. I have some tips for you:

If you are on a laptop Invest in an external mouse if you don't already have one.

Try clicking mostly on the mini map to move.

When clicking on the play screen to move, use the right/second click, walk here options.

Consider that you should adapt where you are flagged to 'move to' as you move. Don't just set a move point and let it run it's course.

Part of it is about predicting where your clicks will land you post-loading of a new area. An area is subjective to where your character is located. It is approximately every 14 game spaces in any direction that constitutes an area. More area to be loaded will show itself on the mini map (as blank/no background/or blacked out space) as you move. Click to set your flage before that cut off, not after them.

The most well thought out skill/ability system I have seen so far is is in Path of Exile...Yes, I know. The passive is an Final Fantasy rip off. But, it feels a little bit more like a slight improvement on a good idea. It completely gets away from the idea of linear hierarchal building while keeping things within archetypes. It's even easy for me to show you (interactively) without you having to download and install anything:

Tim Berners-Lee would approve...that's all I'm saying, lol.

There are plenty of MMORPG that at the very least let you adequately fake diversity with character customization. But generally speaking. Every added feature to character design is a chore. Young , pretty, and some sort of Asian or Caucasian is easiest to make. from pale and near featureless skins, to lower amounts of poly needed, to simplicity with rigging.


Every time you add in one more thing, you have to re-balance, tweak everything around it. There is a cost in development time and money. So, for economy of motion it is probably deemed best to simply appeal to what you at least think is the widest audience, with base character templates and options.


And, if you have time to spend on it. Add in generic things on top of it (like the ability to make a character that is clearly Caucasian have a black skin tone, or a beard but no wrinkles. Or if there are wrinkles, as lines drawn on an existing texture). Everything with this is a choice between quality that may not be appreciated and production value which will get people to the point quicker. Usually if an MMORPG does go all out with this. It's because the lore demands it. Or who they are trying to appeal to won't let them get away with any less.

Originally posted by syriinx

Im going to combine them both into one word:




I see what you did there |:)

Originally posted by Takoo
Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.

Challenges can be brief if you are prepared. While challenge can be time-in... it doesn't necessarily have to be.

Neither explicitly. I like these to be inter-exchangeable. I feel like I should be able to either overcome a single difficult obstacle. Or be able to trudge through easy but drawn out task in order to achieve my goals. And, I like it when games give me multiple approaches. Also the two are not necessarily something that need to be an either or.


One example I can think of is earning a fire cape in runescape. You have to grind through wave after wave of progressively difficult mobs. Which are not that difficult but definitely require time in. And, at then comes Boss. So, it's a grind that sort of qualifies you for the challenge.

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