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All Posts by Helleri

All Posts by Helleri

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807 posts found
I am too lazy for perma death. I probably wouldn't want to play a game with perma death. Because, if I died. I simply have no interest in doing the work it takes to get back to where I was. More power to those who like it though. I envy that kind of...energy, lol.

I think something like Google Glass or 3DS is more likely to be the way of the future then Oculus Rift or Sony's Project Morpheus, in this respect. VR is, always has been, and probably always will be a pipe dream. A lot like Hover Boards. Are they technically doable? Yes;  Are worth it? Definitely not.  And, there are some really good reason for that.

 

In general, it is not a convenient form of entertainment. It asks you to completely disconnect from real world situational awareness. It requires a lot more equipment in bulkier portions (no matter how much they try to slim it down), then most any other kind of Entertainment. It will never be cheaper then a high-res gaming alternatives either (it actually compounds the price point almost exponentially of what ever existing setup someone already has). There are also numerous mental and physical health related issues that the tech from this level of immersion causes which have never been resolved.

 

So, It has lost the battle before it began for all the same reasons the Nickelodeon lost out to the Movie Theater. And every time someone tries to bring this back around to a thing that is going to happen. Game developers, publishers, and companies loose millions on the prospect. By it's very concept it is just not a practical thing.

The Repopulation looks like it will be everything that divergence online wanted to be but has not pulled off (such as actually going to launch in the foreseeable future). I like the look of it and might try it.

I don't know what WoD...The only WoD I can recall was World of Darkness and that project was cancelled.

Do the fog banks hide the player from enemy view? If so it might be a fun idea to have a character that has smoke grenades to create fog. And, another character with the ability to clear fog (maybe an incendiary grenade that 'burns the fog away'). I am also not sure what those goblin looking things are supposed to be given that the main character shown is something of a soldier. I might like it better if those were small RC assault robots. Just not sure at the level of thematic consistency. It looks like your play testing mechanics. But, unsure about the direction you want to go thematically.

 

As for the camera trail distance. I think it's fine, as long as there are considerations in place. Allowing the player to pan in and out possibly. Or to nudge the screen up in order to look ahead (maybe disable ability to fire while screen nudging and have the character take out binoculars when screen nudging screen).  Or even a drone unit that flies ahead. A close in view can be a perfectly good mechanic, as long as it isn't restrictive beyond repair when really needed.

Well, I gave it a shot and took my own medicine. Can't expect more then that, really. Thought it would be an interesting change of mode for our typical kinds of discussions. But, if people really just aren't into it. Or simply can't be bothered, ah well. Not, the first time I have tried for something a little different (Tried an image contest for best outfit in your game of choice once as well which never got off the start line). And, probably won't be the last. Who, knows if I keep at it on occasion I might eventually hit on something people want to get involved in.

Replay Impressions:

So, it looks like Nexon has switched over to using a multi-game launcher/patcher not unlike the one Trion Worlds uses. Apparently, I had an old version of the game floating around on my machine somewhere. So, this client recognized it and let me patch it in client. Took about 3 hours. But, considering I have not played in about 2 years that's understandable. In any case this is a fair bit better then it used to be on that front. The login is a lot less convoluted now as well. I do feel like the game is actually accessible now.

 

Another interesting thing seems to be random field bosses (killed 3 and the last one was no walk in the park). As well, as some pretty frequent world events. There are apparently multiple planets now. And, there is some sort of over arching quest going on that involves a lot of cinematic cut scenes. I guess they have also rearranged the world and added some areas. And, finding my bearings was a bit difficult. Overall it seems like they have added a fair amount of content and streamlined how the game is played and accessed.

 

The community feels a little more grown up. But, there is still plenty of players that...act as chibi as their characters look. However, it is very active. I got a guild invite inside 10 minutes. The guy had a whole speech prepared about why I should join his guild. I didn't ultimately, as I was still in 'me-time-mode' (getting acclimated I find to actually  be harder with people yacking at me about how to do so). But, it's nice to know that it isn't that hard to get with a group.

 

My one concern is that it still has performance issues. Dropped items can still litter the ground numbering in the hundreds while dozens of players spam the screen and speakers with their particle heavy attacks. And, it can all serve to lag the game out. It also did something weird to my internet browser (which restarting my computer fixed). Not sure if I will continue with this title for long. But, at the very least I will get to the next tier bracket/job advancement. So, that I can wield and wear some next tier bracket gear I have in inventory. All I can really say about it, is that the game has not stagnated. It is what it is. And, if you have played it you probably get my meaning. But, it has not gone baron-lands at least. And, it seems like it's devs/publishers are paying attention to it.

So, the idea of this thread is:

  • Talk about a game you have not played in a very long time (one that is still around).  Something you tried for a little while. Then either wrote it off. Or just kind of forgot about it.
  • Go try that game again (even if you really don't want to).
  • Come back and talk about what has changed (if any thing) with it. And, what you think about said changes.
 
I'll start (and in-so-doing provide a format for how to approach this)...
 
Maple Story
 
My History with it:
I tried this game out some years back when they were airing those ridiculous skittles like commercials about it. I didn't last to long in it before setting it down. A few years later they lured me back with a free demon character. Which I played around on a bit. And, quit again. It is a game I let fade from memory until I watched a review on it from some years ago that popped up in my suggested watch list  for youtube a channel I recently subscribed to.
 
My Impressions of it then:
 
This game had a lot of little frustrating things about it. Long waits on what should be fast travel. Not very good platforming (for being a 2D side scrolling MMORPG, that's a little sad to have to say). But, chief amongst these for me was the epically long download/Install/registration process. And, in addition to that...actually getting into the game to play it and staying connected for any reasonable amount of time.
 
I would click an icon to be taken to a website, where I would log in, be prompted to play, then taken to client, which would usually have a sizable patch, then after waiting on game guard I would log in again, type my pin, find my server, find my channel...THEN select my character and actually log in. And I had to do this each and every time I wanted to play.  Which was not easy with the amount of long term partial disconnects or full on client crashes I was experiencing. I didn't so much out right quit the game as I got tired of trying to get into and remain in it.
 
The community wasn't that great either from what I recall. their target demographic was awkward pre-teens and teens...And, they seemed to get exactly that. Which makes for some very spamy and senseless chat, brimming over with leet speak, and an absolute abuse of the emote system (with generally rude or abusive players).
 
(Now the part where I go re-install , play it, and come back to tell about how it compares now to how I remember it).
Originally posted by Orious

The issue is Risk vs Reward...

I think I had the best experience with Lineage 2. It cost so much money to get gear in L2 that you spent most of your time trying to craft it. Months to get one set of gear. You can attack anyone out in the world, but if you murder someone you're red and can't go in towns and when you die...you drop a piece of gear. The huge money sink and grind to get gear created a de-incentive to PKing. Sure you had some, but a majority of players PvPed through War Declaration with other clans. I played L2 a lot and although you could attack players in the open world...I rarely ever witnessed them. Better reasons to PK out there.

 

Step 1: Create a huge risk to gankers and murderers...make it really suck to be one.

Step 2: Make the flagging system robust enough to not be exploited...this means it's tough to have an "Action combat" game that works.

Step 3: PvP has to matter or even consensual world PvP is just a glorified battleground.

 

Agreed...I think the biggest issue with open world PvP is over zealous gankers. Players that just want to see the world burn. And, so you have to put things in place that keep them from making that happen (or they absolutely will). If you don't,  it just becomes needlessly frustrating. It's like speed bumps on a race track when open world PvP is done poorly.

This is one of the things I do like runescape for a lot. It gives a lot of incentive for completing content you don't necessarily need to. Questing in particular. A player who has done most of the quests has access to a lot more content then a player who avoids quests like the plague. And, many of the activities leveling up skills provide have some sort of prerequisite quest gating.  Sooner or later, to be at the best you can be, requires playing through all the content.
True...but, aren't there some games that have employed perma-death that don't have a great depth of content and so it's not such a big deal, as well? I wondering if perma-death itself is a hardcore mechanic. One of those things that could serve to definitively mark a game as hard core. Or if like most of what we have looked at so far. It is largely context based.

So, the reason I  brought this up. What made me ask the question. Is that my main MMORPG for the last 14 years (Runescape)  has recently released a new set of game play modes (which is on top of full manual, revolution, momentum and legacy modes). Iron Man and Iron Man Hardcore. They both require making an entirely new account to play (unlike the other modes). One that when created can be set to Iron Man or Iron man Hardcore mode. Once in it. It basically from what i can see turns the MMORPG into an RPG with some online elements. It gives the player a way to play in near completely self-sufficient manner (doing all aspects of the game solo and from scratch).

 

The difference between Iron Man and Iron Man Hardcore. Is that hardcore mode features perma-death. Which made me wonder "wait...isn't Iron Man by itself hardcore before the addition of an even more difficult mode with perma-death?" and "What about perma-death designates this as hardcore" and "Is that even what hardcore means?"

 

I had been thinking about hardcore vs. casual on occasion before. but, this was the trigger that made me really want to....figure out what it is.

Originally posted by Cold7comfort

there is no such thing as hard core players.

war hammer guild wars 2 eve online all these games have had GvG in some ways and there you have had guilds and players breaking down the functions casual guilds too. but they haven't done it to become hardcore but too have a fighting chance.

Casual guilds semi PvP semi PvE they usually run 1-2 days of PvP and those two days they don't want to get farmed.

does that make them Hardcore?

casual guilds that run raids EVERY DAY in PvP between 17:00-20:00 but they run it casually because they enjoy the current game mode in PvP but they are not looking into earning money or prices. or get a nice title.....

 

hardcore players and hardcore guilds is a term created by some scrub in early 2000 he saw himself lonely person and wanted to become special......

 

I am starting to see how time in cannot fairly be used to define hardcore. If it is measured by this standard alone. In that light it wouldn't exist. But, through the lens of level of involvement, regardless of time-in. It most definitely does.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Helleri
I was wondering about this word recently. What does it actually mean? I know what the dictionary says it means. Which is in a nutshell is, to be true to claims and resistant to change. But, I feel like (from the way I have seen it presented), that the word has been adopted into our MMOG vernacular as a term that can probably be applied a lot more broadly then it's strict definitions.

 

 

So, a few questions to the reader:

 

  • What do you mean when you say Hardcore?
  • What do you think of the relationship between Hardcore players and the games they play?
  • Can you give an example of an experience you recollect to be the most Hardcore you have had; And, why you think it was that way?


For me, "Hardcore" is how the player approaches their gameplay. Hardcore players seem to live for breaking down every last bit of info on a game and its mechanics. Many hardcore player create "Database Websites" for the games they play.

 

Hardcore, to me, has nothing to do with "time played", as many others think. Playing 36 hours straight through does not make a player hardcore, in my opinion.

I also do not use it in a derogatory way. It is just how some players enjoy their games :)

While I don't think time in is an outright declaration of being hardcore. I do think it's a good indicator. I mean, if a player spends a lot of time dissecting the game. then they are probably also spending a lot of time putting it to practice, testing things out, trying to push the limits of the construct. I think it's a lot more likely that a player who spends far more then the average amount of time in-game may be hard core, as well.

I can agree that it shouldn't come with any negative connotations. It is just another play style. Micro-management is enjoyable for some people. And, they shouldn't be looked down on for enjoying the game in a way a lot of people might not.

@OP

I would suggest The Mana World. It is a 2D Iso MMORPG. With an Anime/Manga art style. And, plays very much like a classic open world, hit box combat, top down RPG. The reason I would suggest  this to you, over something else that basically fits your mold. Is because it's free to play standing on the foundation of open source development. It seems to have a good and involved community. Not just in the helping others sense. But, in the helping the game remain a thing and improving the game sense. I tired this one out about 6-8 months ago and was impressed at how advanced and customizable it was, for what it was (and, I have revisited it a couple times since. But, the visual aesthetic isn't something I am always in the mood for these days, so I don't log onto it frequently).

Originally posted by Mavolence
Personally my belief or take on "hardcore" is that there is no such thing as hardcore in gaming. Hardcore is a try hard term for  elitist snobs and asshats. I've played on FFA pvp full loot servers and raided long hours and never ever once considered what i was doing was hardcore or the playstyle hardcore. I was just playing along with rulesets or dungeons i just had a good time doing.

Well definitions are not set by a single person. But, usually a comity of people. One person not seeing what they do as hardcore. Doesn't mean others won't. And, the presumption of this thread is that hardcore does exist. but because it is an extension of a preexisting thing. And, because the development of it's use as a term came very organically. it is not well defined in this context. So, in order to validate it as a thing. Giving it new definition in the context of MMOG/MMORPG gaming is necessary. And, to re-define it in this way. The first step is to get a general idea of how it is being used. Continue to re-frame and re-present that idea as it coalesces. Until we can reach at least a majority consensus on something that is generally agreeable.

 

If we can agree about the different aspects of what it can be taken to mean. And put them together in a non-contradicting and seamless manner. That demonstrates that the concept of this 'being a thing' is worth considering. If we can hammer out the redefinition and continue to refine it. And, if each of us carries that idea where ever we might end up taking it. Then there is a much clearer picture. something that can be accessed by developers and publishers. If we force an understanding and a consensus on what we think. then they can understand what we think better. And, design better for us.

So, updating this. Here is what I have been able to gather about the general consensus (more or less) for how we apply the term:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hardcore can be both attributed to players and games.

 

On the Game-End;

Highly Involved Play (not only for the degree of content or learning curve. But, for the need to remain present and attentive as well. Or risk failure).

High degree of Challenge (High risk, with reward only commensurate to the players ability to rise to the challenge. Just barely overcoming an obstacle or playing through it once only doesn't guarantee great reward. At least some of that reward is designed to come from the feeling of mastery given the effort).

 

And, a game built to offer such thing facilitates on the User-End;

The development of an attitude of undaunted persistence (often accompanied by a thirst to know a game inside and out. not just on the practical but the theoretical level).

This creates an appreciation for an environment that encourages mastery through repetition (So much so, that even when taking part in an experience setup to be more casual, the hardcore player will find ways to be hardcore. Such as replaying a game from another angle where the content is not so extensive as to last at any more then a far more uninvolved rate and mode of play).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

How is that sounding so far, for a general idea of what we can take to be meant by this word when used (I realize some of it is digging into the comments and trying to pull out and then condense the meanings. But, can I get a  show of 'Yay" or "Nay" on how it comes off so far)?

And, another side to it emerges. So, we have:

Game-End;

Highly Involved Play.

Challenge.

User-End;

Attitude of undaunted persistence.

Appreciation for an environment that encourages mastery through repetition.

 

There is a part of this largely untouched upon though. That being experiences with Hardcore Play. What game(s) have held that place in your mind of being the most Hardcore (as in encouraging this mode of play as the main mode of play. by the way the game works)?

Originally posted by Grimlock22
Originally posted by Helleri
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn

For me, the term hardcore is the measure of reward/risk.  

 

Ultimate reward - Ultimate low risk = bottom of the hardcore scale

Minimum reward - Ultra high risk    = top or the hardcore scale

Different levels between those two determine the level of hardcoredness.  The issue is what level of risk/reward you enjoy playing.  I prefer to have a bit smaller rewards for higher risks.  Nothing near the bottom of the scale, but definitely right of center.

Hardcore is often just associated with combat.  PvE or PvP.  The scale still works, but in the case of risk/reward, there would be a consequence for losing battles, and some sort of bonus for winning battles.  This runs the gamut for xp bonuses, lost xp, looting, and a host of other possibilities. 

So, on the unadulterated/hijacked side of this thread (the one I am choosing to pay attention to). I am seeing the idea that hardcore as it has come to be applied. Can mean level of challenge (I am taking risk vs. reward to be synonymous in this context with challenge) and level of involvement. Which is interesting to me because these are both mostly game end things.

If you want to boil it down to its simplest components, I'd think this would work.  However, as you've seen, and will see as more post, there will be lots of disagreement.  This is why it's so difficult for developers to get a handle on what people really want because the MMO Community can't even come to consensus on terms they throw around all the time, such as hardcore vs casual.

I know this first hand because I used to run a "casual" guild and only about 1/3 of the applicants truly shared the same vision of casual that I had.   Lol!

True....And, this is something I am aiming for here. I don't want to talk about what it actually means or should be taken to mean. And, I'd prefer respondents not have to see that line of conversation (because it may end up coloring what their post would have read as other wise). What I am looking for (and this was the scope set in the OP and through reiteration). Is what people have come to use the term to refer to. regardless of semantics of it's actual definition. Who did they first hear it from (if they can recall)? How have they been applying it? what does it mean to them?

I don't feel this is something that can ever be fully addressed unless we can get a clear and honest picture of the current field of play. That is the only intended scope of this thread. Flat out, what has it come to mean to you personally when you apply the term. And, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask those who over think the matter or apply a heavy does of critical analysis to it,  to simply refrain instead.

I don't really do a second play through these days. Maybe I am just lazier then I used to be. But, in recent years I have had this tendency to figure out the pace of play at which all unique content will be quickly be exhausted. And, then purposely play far below that. I don't like the idea of starting fresh any more. I'd rather a character of mine always have something new ahead of them.
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn

For me, the term hardcore is the measure of reward/risk.  

 

Ultimate reward - Ultimate low risk = bottom of the hardcore scale

Minimum reward - Ultra high risk    = top or the hardcore scale

Different levels between those two determine the level of hardcoredness.  The issue is what level of risk/reward you enjoy playing.  I prefer to have a bit smaller rewards for higher risks.  Nothing near the bottom of the scale, but definitely right of center.

Hardcore is often just associated with combat.  PvE or PvP.  The scale still works, but in the case of risk/reward, there would be a consequence for losing battles, and some sort of bonus for winning battles.  This runs the gamut for xp bonuses, lost xp, looting, and a host of other possibilities. 

So, on the unadulterated/hijacked side of this thread (the one I am choosing to pay attention to). I am seeing the idea that hardcore as it has come to be applied. Can mean level of challenge (I am taking risk vs. reward to be synonymous in this context with challenge) and level of involvement. Which is interesting to me because these are both mostly game end things (the facilitation of such experiences anyways).

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