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All Posts by Ender4

All Posts by Ender4

76 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last
1520 posts found

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Ender4 It is why I personally am backing EQNext because they get where the genre has gone wrong. I realize they will probably fail at actually doing half of what they want, but at least it is pointing things in the right direction. Most of the new MMORPG coming out I already played with a different name, why would I play a flashier version of the same tired thing.
Because flashier is fun for 15 minutes? Is there a reason why i should not get a fun 15 min?
15 minutes is great if you're a wet behind the ears 17 year old; us vets typically require a little more "entertainment value" than that.  Different strokes for different folks, right. 
nah .. i am almost 50 .. and i don't have that much time for mere games. 15 min gaming is great. In fact, that is one of the reason I like D3. I can go in .. do just one greater rift, relaxed, and get back to work without wasting hours.


I too enjoy the 15-30 minute gaming experience. It is why I play a lot of games like Rogue Legacy or Infested Planet. The problem for me personally is if that is how your MMORPG is run I'd rather just go play a different type of game. The entire point of the genre to me is to create a social construct and not just a game. It is moving D&D to a computer system, not moving Gauntlet to it. Both fun games when I was a kid but both serve a very different function to me.

Originally posted by Gruug
I have given up on F2P MMO's...PERIOD. You get exactly what you PAY FOR but in the case of a F2P MMO you get less. Microtransactions and "cash shops" have spelled the death of MMO's for me. You may disagree, but it is my wallet that tells me that F2P is not free and you can't get the game you want without PAYING more up front. It just isn't worth it. This applies to ESO and probably soon to Wildstar as well.

There hasn't been a major F2P western MMORPG yet so it is kind of hard to have this opinion. You have GW2 which is B2P and then a bunch of low end devs and asian games released as F2P. If you are talking about games like SWTOR and Rift those are sub based games that shifted to F2P because they were losing too many players to keep the sub. That is completely different than a F2P game.

If you just mean F2P in general I can name a ton of them I've played, never felt a need to spend money on and thought they were all great games. DOTA, LOL, Hearthstone, POE, TOME, Neptune's Pride, PS2, WOT etc etc.

What you are really complaining about is some games cash shops and most of the games with poor cash shops started as sub based games and are just trying to keep their game alive. They weren't built for it.

Also get used to not playing games then because this is about a shift in the entire computer gaming industry. The market is too flooded with games now and too many indie developers and too many tablet games to keep a buy for $60 and pay $15 a month type of model alive. Subs are dying and no amount of pouting about it will change it.

Also just because it annoys the crap out of me. If all your money does is save time it is certainly not P2W. There are gonna be people who spend more money than me and get where they want to be faster but there are gonna be way more people who just play more than me and also get to where they want to be faster than me. There is absolutely no difference between the two things.

P2W only comes into play when they can get to a place I can never reach. Almost none of these games are actually P2W and to be honest even the sub games are moving towards sub and cash shop so stop trying to make this a F2P thing. F2P and cash shop are two different issues completely.

Yeah I'm not really buying this. I absolutely hated trading via chat to the point that I just turn that chat off completely and I still found the older games had way more social interaction. If you want to try to pin it down to only one thing it is easily instancing. Nothing killed the social aspect of these games more than sticking everyone in their own little box. Cross server dungeon finders just made it even worse since now you play the game with throw away friends that you know you will never see again.

There are plenty of other things to point at but nothing else is anywhere near as close.

WoW made the MMORPG mainstream and there really isn't any arguing that point. Before then it was a niche market of hardcore gamers. Part of this is because we saw a huge boom in internet gaming over that time frame and part of it was making the game more accessible to the casual gamer. WoW was also the first pure theme park game. It moved away from MMORPG being an RPG representation of a world and towards it just being a game. It moved away from the pen and paper RPG roots and towards the video game roots. It was a pretty huge paradigm shift in the genre.

Originally posted by Octagon7711
Probably been said already but I'll say it again.  Players know what they want but all players don't want the same thing.  Even the same player likes to take a break from his favorite play style from time to time.  As a young player I may want a certain type of game and as an older player my needs may change. 




This probably says it best. I want a game that isn't going to be popular. I want a world and not a game and most just want a quick game to blow some time on. I want to log in every night just to see how the server changed since the last time I logged on. Even if that means there are times where someone else dictates my play for the night or that I struggle to find something to do. I want really high peaks of enjoyment on the best of nights and I'll gladly pay with valleys on the nights where things go wrong.

Most players want to be able to jump into the game and instantly have fun every single time they log in even if it is a pretty shallow fun. I want a world, not a game. That isn't a popular opinion overall though. I would never make the game I want if I were someone involved in making MMORPG and wanted a steady paycheck.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

If you kill some orcs, you don't need a sandbox to have the other orcs moving somewhere else, just program a branching story tree and you get as good a result.

The world changes in single player games all the time, and it certainly can be done in instances and with phasing for MMOs. Why would devs spend much more money to achieve basically the same effect?

Because it is a completely different effect. Log onto a current MMORPG and visit 5 different servers. Outside of player housing you are pretty much going to see 5 copies of the exact same world. The first person to make a true sandbox MMORPG is going to have 5 very different worlds which were shaped by the player base themselves. That is what I've always personally wanted. By harder I didn't mean just effort, I meant harder from a standpoint of technology required to pull it off. We haven't had the tech to really do this until recently.

It is why I personally am backing EQNext because they get where the genre has gone wrong. I realize they will probably fail at actually doing half of what they want, but at least it is pointing things in the right direction. Most of the new MMORPG coming out I already played with a different name, why would I play a flashier version of the same tired thing.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Ender4 Themeparks are easier to make than sandboxes so you probably aren't going to get what you want just yet. The genre is moving in that direction and it is being aided by better procedural content and AI. We'll get there eventually.
It is not about "easier" to make. The tech to make virtual worlds go back to UO & EQ.

It is about customer preferences. The genre is moving in the direction of MOBAs, instanced games, and other single player/MMO hybrid.

There are certainly some tries in sandbox, but aside from EQN, there are few AAA tries, and i doubt that will start a new trend, and time will tell.


Yes it is very much easier to make a fully realized theme park because all you have to do is create the content. A true sandbox requires building systems that can change and react to the players. UO gets called a sandbox but it really wasn't much of one. Being able to build a house doesn't make a sandbox.

The concepts going into some of these new games are true sandbox concepts. Things like if you keep killing orcs in the forest the orcs move somewhere else. When the orcs leave maybe some wild bears move into the area because the orcs used to kill them for food. The world has just been changed in multiple ways by the players actions. I'm not talking a string of scripts like GW2 does or repeated Rifts. Those are trying to hide the theme park, not build the sandbox.

The PvE part of the world has really been done in true sandbox style in many games at all and the few it has been done in were pretty limited games.

Themeparks are easier to make than sandboxes so you probably aren't going to get what you want just yet. The genre is moving in that direction and it is being aided by better procedural content and AI. We'll get there eventually.

Well first off we learned that a sub fee simply doesn't work unless you already have a large player base. Almost every new sub fee game has gone F2P/B2P in under a year in the past few years.

I don't know how anyone played Wildstar for even an hour and thought it was going to succeed though. That game was pretty terrible.

ESO still has a chance now that they dropped the sub fee.

Sub fees made a lot of sense when bandwidth was expensive and there weren't a ton of good games hitting the market. The player base would usually just pick one game and play the heck out of it. Today's market is overloaded with quality games though.

Most people play a bunch of games and don't just stick with one. Games have many different price spots including a ton of really high quality games that can be had for $15 or less. We are now even moving towards a place where you can get quality games for under $5 or even free. Asking the market to spend $15 a month on your game is simply ridiculous and a scam.

The next one of these games that tries a sub fee should lower it to like $5 a month and see if that works.

I say all this as someone who gladly paid by the hour to play MUDs back in the day when the internet was 'new'. The developers have to understand the market and change with it and these developers were either too dumb to do it or wanted a quick cash flow and planned to move F2P the entire time.

I guarantee you that the next Blizzard MMORPG is not sub based even though they would get plenty of subs. You can read the writing on the wall from the fact they released Hearthstone and HOTs as F2P models. A game like EVE where time is how you get skills makes some sense as sub based, pretty much none of the rest make sense.

Clunky animations/movement pretty much kills every MMORPG that has it.

On a personal level I'll add any game with heavy use of instancing is going to fail to me, though it might not flop.

Having a sub fee while not a surefire flop is a sure way to not thrive and eventually move to B2P or F2P. It is simply an outdated payment model.

True that, being #2 means nobody on earth cares about it anymore...

EQN is still the only really interesting fantasy MMORPG coming out anytime soon. It very well may fail but at least it isn't just a clone of some other cruddy game out there.

I'll go vague as well. Any game that feels like I have to spend money to stand a chance and where I can't offset that feeling with time spent. Any game where I can't play even the basic game without spending money to open things up as well. I do not consider Hearthstone to be P2W. I have never spend a cent in that game and I have never felt a lack of cards really cost me. I never felt D3 of PoE were P2W. I never felt PS2 was P2W. A game like SWTOR though I do feel is.

Time is most certainly not a part of it either. The guy sitting in his basement playing 24/7 is no different than the guy spending money to get ahead. There is always going to be someone who has more to put into any game than I do. If all spending $$$ does is make you advance faster that is nowhere near P2W.

The only crooks in the genre are the buy to play and then pay a monthly sub. I already spent my money on the game, why am I being charged every single time I want to come back and play the game.

I'm not a huge fan of P2W but that rarely has anything to do with the sub or buying model, that is more about the cash shop which is a completely separate entity.

PoE's combat is just god awful and their adherence to linear gameplay makes it awful at best. PoE is everything that is wrong with aRPG from a pure gameplay standpoint as D3 is everything that is wrong with aRPG from a character building standpoint.

WoW clones stink because the current version of WoW is a piss poor MMORPG and new games are copying that piss poor version. More importantly it is an outdated game. The new generation needs to focus on procedurally generated content and having a real effect on the world, not just replaying the same easy garbage over and over.

I would hope a good MMO didn't want to be anything like skyrim. A really linear game where decisions make almost no difference and that was one of the buggiest pieces of software ever released. No thanks.

Wildstar showed that if you make a really awful game nobody will play it. It is the more modern day version of WAR.

ESO showed if you are stuck in the past and ask people to pay a monthly fee it will bite you in the behind even if you have a somewhat decent game.

The only game mentioned in this thread that had any chance of succeeding at release was GW2 and I'd say it did succeed. It just didn't thrive. That is because of a bunch of really piss poor gameplay decisions they made, not because of anything else. Making the gameplay feel so generic from lvl 1 til max just makes it tedious by the end.

The true next gen of MMO is coming in the next year or two, we have been in nothing but a holding pattern with crap offerings for like 5 years now at least if not more. If you asked which new games excited me over the past 5 years my list would be 1 or 2 games, if you ask me that over current games in development there are at least 4 or 5. They have realized throwing out some cruddy WoW clone just isn't enough anymore.

I actually would prefer a more strategic GCD system myself. Like an improved EQ2. Problem is these games are just dumbing everything down instead of making them more complex so we get these action lite combat systems that have no real substance to them instead. Current MMORPG play more like gauntlet than like an RPG. Sadly I feel the best combat of any of these games was back in the MUD days with games like Dragonrealms. I want longer, slower and more strategic instead of faster, shorter and more twitchy.

I'm really sounding like an old man with this post aren't I~.

Alpha and Beta generally has a smaller, tighter community and you get more access to the devs. Generally speaking I've found them to be more fun than games post release. WoW was way more fun during friends and family beta than it was after release as an example.

I actually prefer tab target but I think the problem is that combat has become too simplistic. When I envisioned computer game turn based combat which is sort of what tab target is, I envisioned a world where combat could be made way more complex because the computer handled all the little things that were too annoying to enjoy in a pen and paper RPG. Instead we got combat that is simplified compared to pen and paper.

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