All Posts by ianonmmorpg

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Sure depending on the content any game system can be repetative and boring, however in order to ensure you have a complex storyline you can either have hundreds of writers or simply turn the bulk of the work over to the players. In my view however the reason for sandbox is not to save cash on writers, instead its to empower the players.

Ponico seems pleased that EVEs sandbox (I've not played) with 'podding' (not quite PD) is not fun to experience (there is the emotional content) but 'EVE is still King', and this is an opinion shared (at least in part) by its 236,510 subscribers. Not as many as some other games, but thats still a lot of people who play a game together and risk the tremendous loss described by Ponico.

It seems we agree that a game with interesting, new dare I say dynamic content can survive the death of a char, I am however surprised that you feel that sandbox cannot provide this. I agree that it wont automatically provide the complex storyline, but its possible that a sandbox will be the most dynamic and evolving story... everyone is writing it with each and every footstep.

As I'm looking at a sandbox model I'd be reluctant to kill everyone off periodically, however with an old age mechanic I suppose we're in agreement again, except you'd need to write a new story and generate all new content else time will simply repeat itself if you dont mind using the linear model.

As regards the hoarding problem, this is an issue of the economy of the world. If you want to horde timber from your local forest... sure go wild, not sure what your going to do with it all. And how exactly are you going to maintain your control over this pile of wood, it wont fit in any sensible backpack and you're going to need help moving it to the local 'bank' and why would you put wood in a bank? its worthless until you give it to folk who can use it. Just how much furniture do you want? The fact is, sure you can amass a great deal of wealth, but you'd need to employ other PCs in order to collect resources and process them or to control the economics of a city full of PCs. And lets not miss the point here... this will provide some of the dynamic for our stories.

Oh yeah, Itzcoliuhqui, like it. Hunting down these springs sounds like the basis for a game in itself.

Originally posted by UtMoon

...

I am more than willing to lose my character if the time spent getting that character was not  (Grinding), and I had the choice to go into the risky area or not. I would never play a game where you could be PDed by a noob while fishing peacefully. If I was going after Jaws... that is another story

...

Its about your choices, if you chose to put yourself in danger then expect more risk, by employing the Fate Points (previously stated) players can experience the risk but better manage it... and so educate them to the real risks of the given game world. They can adjust their game play to create the risks they're looking for.

This is why I'm looking for 'realism' so players can predict the level of risk of certain actions.

I agree with Itzcoliuhqui as regards the foolishness of being jumped if your someone of standing, but I'd state you should have some chance to survive and so not be an auto-death. The question would be, who is this noob and why are they attacking you? I back Itzcoliuhquis' No-XP for killing, sure for fighting and even simply meeting folk, but not killing them. They can have any gear you drop, and brag about it, but unless this noob has a social problem (quite possible) he'd have little to gain.

As an aside, I further agree that magic users would be in the main limited in capabilities except for a few who would most likely jealously gaurd their secrets, or trade such knowledge for temporal power, which means only handing out a bit of knowledge and so keeping their powerbase.

While I agree with your basic premise Gestalt, I would highlight you're assuming that the game is linear. That is to say that you'd be repeating all those tasks again for your second or subsequent characters. In a sandbox dynamic game with an evolving world its possible that it is the world and the events within it (events that your character(s) may will be deeply involved in) that draw your efforts not just attaining some token level (remember we're not employing 'levels').

I agree that some will find death and starting a new character very frustrating (indeed many would) but its the attraction of the world and new stories rather than a single storyless grind repeated adinfinitum. Its the attraction of seeing this world from new angles perhaps very new angles as new races etc.

Where did the smilies come from? Cool dude?? Honestly who claims that with accuracy???

I'll need to give up work soon just to keep up with this thread :)

Itzcoliuhqui, I'd not said that FPS cannot apply to RPGs and accept that you can build an FPS style RPG, I was mearly pointing out that Role-Playing is about assuming a role that is not necessarily your 'native-one'. Hence I could play as Conan even if I'm in a wheelchair with only one arm (I'm not but I could be). I like the idea of the mind behind your character being the one whom I'm interacting with, not your hand-eye co-ordination (or even your 'modem-speed') but your intellect. Hence I'd prefer an RPG to be character profile based, sure an FPS can have a profile that modifies your abilities, but in that case we may as well stick with a cunning selection of combat stances and moves rather than FPS. But as I said, that's what I'd prefer.

As for EVE being cashed based, yeah sure it is, and as Rappletek  and I agree, that's fine. But I'd prefer (that word again) a non-cashed based by system. As I said, I have no probs with someone offering a service (eg:rezzing) for whatever rewards they want (lets say cash), but I'd want the system to be able to keep folk alive or kill them based on something other than finances. They'll lose equip and cash that seems sensible if you fall in battle and are possibly looted, but that's not the death penalty. Losing your cash should be something that happens when you walk through a city without a tight grip on your purse, or you make foolish investments. I think that permanent but limited damage ranging to major (profile impacting) disabilities and even permament death should await characters at some point.

The idea of logging off after you've burnt your fate points raises its head if you ignore persistance, but in my quest for realism I'd already thrown that out, instead your char will still be on the battlefield, only now they are an NPC rather than a PC and so still liable to be staggering around covered in their own gore hoping to see the light of day again. Of course, log off and log-back on a day later and your fate points are back... its a prob that folk may well resort to, knowing that they're going down anyway they might as well not watch and come back when its all over... yeah a prob. Not because its going to get them around the system ('cos it wont) but because they might find it more fun to simply never come back to the game (Mmmm a prob).

I agree entirely with all your posts regarding no need for levels. I accept that we need some method of rating the relative experience (abilities) of chars and so accept (indeed use) the description of low and hi level chars. I further agree that with a chance of having your eye poked out even by nubie will prompt folk to be a lot more careful and along with staving off hunger and fatigue; you'll be trying to work together more and so build the player economy I think all of us (current posters) would want.

However back to my OP, I feel that a player economy dominated by immortal hi-level chars will be stiffled and create a nobility that the nubes will not be able to infiltrate as easily... unless things can change. Sure I can kill the NPC bad guy, so why not the PC 'bad-guy'? That's the prime reason for PD from an economic stand point (as stated Itzcoliuhqui). We need to be able to lose everything so someone else (and their buddies) can take it.

Hence even if its a struggle to kill me, or at least drive me from my lands, I want it to be possible.

It generates more 'quests', that is players will set themselves goals and no doubt invite/force others to assist in driving people off their land or to reclaim their land.

I still see PD fitting in here, as it appears so does Itzcoliuhqui... but I think a 'chancy' system seems to be what we're heading towards. You might die but its more likely you just wake up with a disability that could take time to fix. yeah?

This thread suddenly got busy... so much to respond to , so many good ideas....

Itzcoliuhqui, I agree completely that we'd need a very solid combat system. I imgine that people would be more willing to accept PD (Permadeath) if we had twitch combat (=FPS) and so they could feel that their skill let tem down. But I think that this system would be difficult to run thanks to lag, and to be honest it's not what having an RPG character is about. I like FPSs but a RP character has its own skills and abilities quite unlike my own and so it should be the skills of the chars not the players as regards direct combat. Sure its your 'good-sense' that commands them,  but its their weapon-skill etc. But yeah, whatever system is employed the player needs more than simply hit,hit,hit.

The vital organs comment is a clue towards a more realistic system, its not what hits you or even how hard, its where they hit you. A gentle poke in the eye is more telling than the hardest punch in your glutimus maximus, factor in a weapon and you've a complicated system but much more realistic and fully capable of having an amateur hurt even an expert, especially when several on one.

As regards no health/level meter and no insta-heals... again I agree fully. The idea that you can deduce the strength of those around you based on little more than a sign over their heads and the ability to interogate every piece of kit they carry... seems a bit odd to me. I dont mind magic use to peek at someones kit and of course watching them in action is a good way of gaining intel. By removing the insta-heals (except in 'miraculous' circumstances) you make life more difficult and perhaps go someway towards PD without actually needing to impose PD all that often. Again not knowing your foe will futher make life difficult.

Rappletek (and Gestalt11 and Cotillion99), in WOW I agree would be a poor place to implement PD for the reasons you state, a single lv70 versus everyone else who couldn't make it (Actually its just made me think of Highlander- there can be only one!!!). I like the unlawful Pkers comment, I imagine a city with laws which thanks to the sandbox nature of the game are imposed by the PCs (democracy or despotism) and enforced by the PCs and any NPCs that have been hired as the local militia (needed to allow city life). I think I'd already proposed a 'knocked back to save point' idea and so you could easily work in a sizable delay. If we imagine your character is dragging themselves through the mud, or being washed down river by currents having been knocked into it... days could pass before they come to their senses. And if we assume you dont know how bad it was, you may well be worried that your char is PD... until they are available again after a couple of days wandering in a fever. Techleo makes a similar point from LotRO system which if I understand also has an injury system.

I wouldn't want a system that relyed on being rich, in Eve as highlighted by Rawrg, your using cash as its a technological service that clones you back into the game, so its fair that its cash orientated. I guess if a wizard was willing to rez someone for cash then thats fair enough, but typical anti-PD actions of the players must represent some skill they've developed rather than a fat wallet. I would like to think that those people at the bottom of the social ladder the ones who face death daily would be most skilled at avoiding PD unlike the rich banker who simply avoids danger in general.

And yeah, Briansho I've read the 'cover-note' for Darkfall and its sounds almost the game I would expect for the next gen, but not quite enough sandbox, maybe I'm aiming too high?? And judging by the delays, perhaps so are they.

Gestalt11, I hope my 'fate points' could equate to your 'Lives', although not as many as 30, as I'm looking at them tending to respawn daily... this gives both more and less at the same time. A char can now survive hostile terrain each and every day,  but may well fall if faced with a group of hostiles in this same terrain.

Also I agree that increasing the complexity of the combat system and advising people to run-away would help a PD enabled game but may well turn off folk (Oh well, that's me not getting paid) but it should (hopefully) attract a number of players who've been looking for something a little bit more realistic... and frees them to be real heros not just guys/gals who (like any other) made it to max level.

Cotilion, like the heirs idea, had been planning on introducing immortality via procreation to the thread, but (as is the point of these discussions) someone has already put the idea down. Its a great one, being able to build your next character and shape them, we'd need to speed up their development, but as time is relative it shouldn't be to much of a prob. It also permits us to make your character get old, only very slowly, but it can happen. I assume hi-speed time till 16 then normal (gametime) till your dead. Hence very few kids but plenty of adults (if only!).

I'd built a procreation system for my dragons in a tabletop RPG, each new generation being an evolution of their parents and (as magic pervades the world) the developed strengths of the parents influence the offsprings own development (maybe positive or negative). I tried to employ it for humans, but when RPGing for humans time tends not to run so quickly so we didn't get much use out of it... but in an MMO years in realtime will pass and so we can have many years pass in game... time enough to generate kids and apprentices etc.

I imagine a kid going on the hunt for their parents killer.... yeah, I'll be hunting them down for killin my char.

Thanks all for your posts so far, and sorry if all the text has put you off ....

Originally posted by Itzcoliuhqui

While I'm being a big fan of open pvp and PD, I am quite aware that introducing these elements, on most of the games in the market today, would result in a fairly unenjoyable experience.

One of the things that, I believe, makes it unworkable is the con system used. Your HP and your regenerative abilities increase as you level up. This growth is so often exagerated that... Considering a warrior at level 10 is already terrific(capable of slaying bears and such), at level 100 is a demi god. Capable of killing a large group of the level 10 warriors... With  no armor or weapons equiped. While I can understand that a moment like this can be epic... It doesn't make sense at all(You see it happen in Anime sometimes but... They at least have weapons and, the heroes, usually dodge the attacks).

That said, I do think that it'd make for a great plot for a player to find an item that would indeed let him take alot of punishment and simply regenerate. He could then head on to a barbarian wasteland topple off all the warchiefs and unite them under his banner... Making him the new king of the northern realms, the Immortal King. Unfortunately, by the way I see MMOs evolving I predict this will happen... Never.

I fear you may be right as regards a fairly unenjoyable game developing from a poorly designed Perma-death system, but I hope that we could deduce an enjoyable system including the 'risk of death'.

I agree that a 'standard' levelling system will result in a lv10 capable of engaging easily against many lv1s and inturn incapable of sucess against a single lv100 even with a large number of their peers in support. I agree we've seen such adventures in film and books but such battles are more about skilled evasion of blows rather than absorbing them thanks to HPs. But why must we imagine a system that contains features we think are 'un-realistic' or limit gameplay, instead lets start again with something 'more-useful'.

And indeed an artifact that permits a character to absorb massive amounts of damage would be a nice piece of kit. With a more sandbox system we could well see such a development, but we could be waiting a while....

Again this looks like a job for 'Fate points', keep pushing into the enemy lair / spooky forest and you'll end up burning the few points you have and when you get to your last the choice is yours... be defeated and awake back at camp (last 'save point') covered in mud and gore with a fair chance of an injury and perhaps a missing weapon and heavy backpack. Or keep pushing and risk a chance of perma-death or (if your lucky) again awakening in the camp with a definite injury (perhaps permanent) and none of you gear.

So, what about it? Longer lasting injuries including their scars plus permanent ones ranging from a missing finger/toe up to an arm or even leg. Yeah its rough, but its better than death. These injuries will have 'Profile-Impact' and result in (for instance) reduced movement rate (especially running) or inability to employ two-handed weapons and bows etc.

As the player had the choice to keep pushing with a diminishing number of fate points or retreat; we can conclude they took the risk and so accept the consequences.

I picture the 'last-save-point' as being a camp that was employed by the char(s) in their journey to the enemy 'base', providing them with a fall-back location, within which they could leave some food and water (etc) to aid with any recovery. Should enemy PCs find this camp (simple campfire) then they can force the PCs to fall-back further, thus increasing odds of a more serious injury and considerably increasing the chances of losing all their gear. I picture a PC waking in the middle of a forest besides a stream wondering where thet hell they are. Note that your memory is unreliable after a trauma, and so its perfectly resonable that you cant remember how you got there.

Originally posted by Czzarre

First, I believe you meant to say "Character death / immortality" not "PLayer death/immortality"

second, Im a big fan of games that can incorporate perma death. However the issue with permadeath is the fact that we all die 10 times on like lev 7, we all have 20 deaths due to discons at some point. Those issues must be addressed.
In a PvP setting class balance must be ensured. And gaking of lowbies/ zone camping must also be taken into consideration

A couple of posts have highlighted that lag/dropped server could result in perma death, is this due directly to losing the server an so it assumes your dead (seems like an odd thing to do) or do you mean your char stands in the way of a train while you struggle with your lag? Obivously this is a little more difficult to work round, can't have your Toon taking over and saving itself whenever it percieves your putting it in harms way. If you come up wih a system which prevents death if the server has trouble communicating with the client  then everyone will simply drop the connection when facing imminent death.... Mmmm problem.

I like the 'Morale' idea highlighted by BSmith, a common system in many GW games, making the character far less capable of aggressive combat and not letting them advance towards the enemy. Fall back or be stuck surrounded by foes you can't beat. Of course you wont be able to get out if surrounded unless system knows a fall back direction given the deployment of enemy units. I think this system is good against PCs pushing into an enemy dungeon, slowing them and making them maybe rethink their tactics in certain areas without actually risking their lives, but it would be less useful in PvP, you're going to want to get something off your defeated foe, not just the sight of then running away, and unless they can run-away very quickly you can simply follow and continue to annoy them.

I think morale even if not a solution to permadeath is still a nice realism feature, forcing your chars to be less able when confronting terrifying situations... unless your pretty damn cool.

The issue of max-level entering low-level areas I think requires there to be such areas in a game. I prefer more freeform (sandbox) games, but rather than solving this prob they would actually get worse as now any area could contain hi & low level chars. I suppose bland statements like, 'make sure you dont go out of the city without protection' simply highlight the fragility of people, while realistic its prob not what people want to play as a game.

What ya think?

Originally posted by Catizone

Originally posted by Obee

With the failures of Tabula Rasa and Pirates of the Burning Sea 

uh who says they failed? They are online making money so they didn't fail.

True enough, I think WOW has given the business and unfortunately many in the community the impression that not having 10million subscribers is failure. WOW has a large market share but as long as your profitable (and so can keep running) and you've a fan base who enjoy the product... of course you've succeeded.

Originally posted by Kyerna

Fate points? Have you been playing Warhammer FRPG? :D
... How would you award the fate points however? (other than on character creation)

To be honest I think you'd start with very few (1), after all if your going to cope with the loss of a character it'll be near the begining (IMO). The idea I was toying with is similar to the Force Skills in Star-Wars-RPG, basically you'd 'invest' your fate point in your adventures, having them return to you each day thus allowing you to continue acting in an adventurous and heroic manner.

Should you burn a point simply to save yourself from harm, we'd consider this a 'normal' usage and not very heroic, hence give it 24hrs and you can prob have it back. However should you use this fate to enact some heroic deed then you have a chance of not only regaining the original but gaining another, of course how close to the resolution to a quest you'd need to use this point would require testing (I cant think of an easy way of judging the 'heroism' than assuming that your being heroic completing quests).

If we assume that the more you have the less chance of regaining them and gaining more, it should permit careful users to develop a few and so stave of death, but not permit users from gaining so many that they are in effect immune to everyone else.

Indeed I assume you could use them in non-combat situations when you desperatly need to 'pass a dice roll'. I'd actually dreamt up a whole system of "Fates and Furies", where if you expend a point to harm another then you earn a Fury Point intead of a Fate, these can only be used agressively and count towards your Fate point total, thus we have folk turning to the 'Dark Side' with the ability to inflict harm but less able to employ their points in a more constructive manner (again mostly thanks to Star-Wars).

To OP,

Sorry for the lack of intellectual discourse, but you last line kind of spells the doom... yeah I know its true but you didn't have to say it :)

However if we get a miillion posts a Dev who actually has access to many millions £$£$£ may well listen.

Better get back to praying....

Still no name then? How am I supposed to make banners?

Hello fellow RPGers, I've just  posted this thread in the Pub [www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/177296]

Wanted to invite you to have a look, not sure if you folks make it to the Pub (makes you a different RPG crowd from those I'm familiar with), but I wanted you to take a peek as I really want some input from RPGers rather than... well you know... that other lot.

The post is concerned with the nature of player immortality, should our characters be allowed to die???

Have a look rather than replying here...more ideas in one place helps feed further ideas.

Thanks all,

Halleluiah Brother..... Halleluiah.

Bring on the one who for now has no name.....

Hi all, new member so I may well of missed this thread before (couldn't find it though)...

While I'm not an experienced player of MMORPGs I've spent most my life playing/writing tabletop (dicey) RPGs and some single player PC games (not for release (no comments about playing with self)) and so I was wondering about the subject of character immortality.

I've played WOW (me and everyone in Korea) and I found the 'soft fluffy cushion' of immortality very relaxing while I got used to the game system and the fact that I was very squshy as a lv1 versus an invisible  lv60 from 'the other side'.

Looking back to various other games and examining games I have developed and would create as an MMO (given a few million ££) I keep thinking that death should have an impact. Without the fear of death, (rather than a tedium of running across a landscape) I feel that we've lost a great deal of the emotional content of the game.  Yeah I dont want all my good work to go up in smoke just because I didn't spot that trap... or worse still because someone told little Timmy that he couldn't have a new bike and so he decided to Gank me (I'm still looking for you ......:)

I'm personally a fan of death but only after I've burned my 'fate-points' that act to protect me and as a last resort maybe get me away from the trouble... yeah its a walk but its better than certain death.

I know other games do things differently, and whatever system you have there will be supporters and detractors, so I throw it to the crowd..... what are your views on player death / immortality ??

Originally posted by IShootBlanks

There already is such an MMO and its been going on for centuries. Its called REAL LIFE....

I dont know about you, but I've been told that the worlds been around a bit longer than centuries... Have you been listening to a certain Archbishop again? (that was James Ussher for those interested)

Do people really want 'Realish-life' the RPG maybe set in a Tolkenish world? If so then getting back to the OP I'd have to say we need NPCs to help fill out the population.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 Originally posted by ianonmmorpg

 I would hope (the baddies) are doing more interesting things than sitting there waiting for you, else why are we hunting them? They seem quiet enough hiding in a dungeon.

 This excellent point gives me an idea. Many thanks.

Originally posted by thorwood

...

City of Heroes has a good system with sidekicks that allow lower level players to join a higher level team.  In other games players that are a much lower level in a team either get no experience or get powerleveled but contribute nothing.

...