I guess when MoM comes out we will see how many buy it.

On the official (european) forums you could read how people bought copies of the gold edition to upgrade existing accounts with the ingame objects of the gold edition. They never planned to subscribe to those accounts at all, only wanted the items.

I dont think they will shut down LOTRO anytime soon but it would not surprise me to see server mergers before the end of 2009.

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

 

Originally posted by Bursche

 

Well i could not avoid more points because you made none.

 

As you completely fail to imagine the concept of dynamic quests and a dynamic world i will try (for one last time) to explain it to you.

NO i dont want to be sent killing rabbits, wolves, boars, lions, elefants, santa clausses I AM SICK DOING SO.

I want a world where:

1 NPC sends a player to kill lions.

and he sends another 25 players. Then he has enough lion fur for the rest of the week. (Oh i hear the crying of all those other adventurers not getting the same quest!! WTF my alt had that quest too!) but hang on... all those dead lions cause the rabbit population to explode and eat aunt sophie's salat. She gives out a quest to kill rabbits. Once enough rabbits are dead something else is triggered and so on and so on.

This is called a dynamic environment that interacts with the general behaviour of players.

 

 

Completely impossible. It would only work in an "MMO" where the number of players on a server would be limited to a very small amount, like 100 person at a time.

 

OR in a completely instanced world.

In an open MMO with (tens of) thousands of players, you can NOT balance dynamic quests. You don't need to be a scientist in computer gaming to understand that. If you want a 100 thousands players play your MMO, you will need to add static quests. Lots of them. No developer can affort hundreds and hundreds of content writers working 24/7 on new content, and another couple hundred programmers/testers to work on dynamic balance also 24/7.

Such a game might never exist...

DB

lol yeah, the same was said about MMO's in game magazines 20 years ago. And about almost every invention humans ever made.

All it takes is to create closed trigger circles that interact with each other. Not really a big deal and partially done in other games already. DAoC for example had elements of this and also Ryzorm (R.I.P.)

But sure, impossible - LOTRO is the highest evolution of MMO gaming. Newsflash, its not, its a backstep in many aspects.

Originally posted by Yeebo

 

Originally posted by Bursche

 

Originally posted by Yeebo

 

Originally posted by Bursche

 

Originally posted by Yeebo

 

 

Originally posted by Bursche

 

Originally posted by jarish

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by erandur

Level 28, and I already HAD to take a break from it. Really pathetic way of filling the game up, just I noticed I have 3 identical quests at the moment.. just from a different npc, all kill 12 wargs....

You do realize that means you can get triple the XP you normally would by doing three quests at once?  I'm usually pretty happy when my quests line up that nicely. 

I totally agree I love it when I can kill mutliple birds with one stone.

Making a fast game even faster doesnt really line up nicely ;)

 

Why not just have exp for all alts at the same time too or even better: why not let players type in their wish level and DING. Welcome to Level 50.

It's the lack of innovative content he describes, giving a perfect example of lazy devs.

If you line them up you get 3 times the exp you should for this ammount of running and if you do them one after the next its just stupidly boring. No matter how you put it - its lazy by the devs.

 

Yes, having three random quests (out of hundreds) line up for the same targets if you happen to manage the chains they are embedded in correctly is exactly the same as handing everyone a 50. 

 

I also fail to see how LoTRO would suddenly be a better game if it took ten times as long to level, or they removed all the quests.  I played a game like that, it was launch EQ.  No thanks.

nowhere did i say to remove content or make leveling 10 times slower.

I said it lacks QUALITY and INNOVATIVE content but rather is stuffed full with boring grind shit quests like we had them in dozens of other games before.

YOU where the one loving it to get 3 times the exp you should get for a certain mobhunt.

so why dont you love it to get 500 times that exp just at once? (here is your 50 - you won, congrats)

<modedit>

Being happy when random quest chains line up nicely if you manage them well is not the same thing as wanting to be handed a 50 on a silver plate.

Not only did you miss the point utterly, but you made the same point that I responded to again.

 

As for this:

nowhere did i say .... to make leveling . . slower

Your original response was:

Making a fast game even faster doesnt really line up nicely

The clear implication of this statement is that (1) you consider the pace of the game to be too fast and (2) having one set of low level quests line up for the same targets makes it even worse. 

So what did you mean?  Is the game way to fast or only a little too fast?  Or did you mean that the speed of the game would be just fine except for the three random warg quests?

No you never said make the levelling "ten times" slower.  But you did imply that it's too fast.

No-where did you ask for quests to be removed.  However you state repeatedly how "crappy" and "unoriginal" the quests are (from above "boring grind shit quests like we had them in dozens of other games before").  From the tone of your posts I assumed that you are someone that despises quest based solo friendly MMOs.  Was I mistaken?

<modedit>

Yes, once again you are mistaken and miss interpreting what is not meant in a text.

 

Your assumptions miss the point made by miles. What was said is that having 3-5 NPC's giving out the exact same quest mob is lazy cheap boring design, that speeds up the game uncalled.

The last thing lotro needs is shortcuts and speed-ups. Putting content in that was so obviously lazy and poorly thought of is just an insult to the players.

Innovative and dynamic quests that change their route depending on luck, current (dynamic) circumstances and player decission would spice things up much better than tripple exp.

Of course such quest concepts can not be copy pasted from other quests and take twice or three times the dev time. With an undemanding player base like you represent it thats of course a useless investment for a dev team.

Bursche

<modedit>

The only point you really addressed was whether you hate quests or not, and what you came up with there doesn't make the first bit of sense.  Let me see if I have this straight.....

 

"Three NPCs in the lonelands send you to kill the same wargs, if you know their quest chains well enough to cue up all three of those quests at once.  Therefore the quest design of LoTRO sucks."

Would it have been less "lazy and poorly thought out" (your words) if one guy sent you to kill rabbits, and another to kill wolves?    The point you are harping on is so nitpicky it verges on irrational.

Would it be nice if LoTRO had more dynamic quests with branch points leading to different outcomes?  Sure.  I'd like to see that in any MMO.  But LoTRO is no worse than any number of quest based MMOs in this respect.  In fact it does have a number of quests with innovative mechanics.  The "avoid eyballs" quests and some of the loremaster class quests come to mind.  The book quests are also far more cinematic and compelling than epic quests I've seen in other MMOs.    

However,  for the most part I 'm just happy to have quest text to read that's better than what an average  high school kid could come up with.  Sadly, that alone is a rarity in MMOs (and a subtlety I am guessing is lost on you).  I also really enjoy the stories that emerge from a lot of the quest arcs.  I don't mind being sent to kill ten foozles or deliver a package if there's a decent story connected to it.  

<modedit>

Well i could not avoid more points because you made none.

As you completely fail to imagine the concept of dynamic quests and a dynamic world i will try (for one last time) to explain it to you.

NO i dont want to be sent killing rabbits, wolves, boars, lions, elefants, santa clausses I AM SICK DOING SO.

I want a world where:

1 NPC sends a player to kill lions.

and he sends another 25 players. Then he has enough lion fur for the rest of the week. (Oh i hear the crying of all those other adventurers not getting the same quest!! WTF my alt had that quest too!) but hang on... all those dead lions cause the rabbit population to explode and eat aunt sophie's salat. She gives out a quest to kill rabbits. Once enough rabbits are dead something else is triggered and so on and so on.

This is called a dynamic environment that interacts with the general behaviour of players.

<modedit>

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

 

 

Originally posted by Bursche

 

Yes, once again you are mistaken and miss interpreting what is not meant in a text.

 

Your assumptions miss the point made by miles. What was said is that having 3-5 NPC's giving out the exact same quest mob is lazy cheap boring design, that speeds up the game uncalled.

 

Even if you have to kill the same mobs for more than 1 quest, than these quests are always parts of different quest chains, and *of course* they are NOT given by the same NPC.

 

Actually, there are only 2 places where it is truly common: around the Forsaken Inn, and in Nan Amlug. After that, I can hardly point at any questing place where the mobs overlap in more than 2 chains.

DB

<modedit>

I wrote: "What was said, that having 3-5 NPC's giving out the same quest mob..."

I remember i had 3 or 4 warg quests at some point too and probably missed a few.

<modedit>

Originally posted by Yeebo

 

Originally posted by Bursche

 

Originally posted by Yeebo

 

 

Originally posted by Bursche

 

Originally posted by jarish

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by erandur

Level 28, and I already HAD to take a break from it. Really pathetic way of filling the game up, just I noticed I have 3 identical quests at the moment.. just from a different npc, all kill 12 wargs....

You do realize that means you can get triple the XP you normally would by doing three quests at once?  I'm usually pretty happy when my quests line up that nicely. 

I totally agree I love it when I can kill mutliple birds with one stone.

Making a fast game even faster doesnt really line up nicely ;)

 

Why not just have exp for all alts at the same time too or even better: why not let players type in their wish level and DING. Welcome to Level 50.

It's the lack of innovative content he describes, giving a perfect example of lazy devs.

If you line them up you get 3 times the exp you should for this ammount of running and if you do them one after the next its just stupidly boring. No matter how you put it - its lazy by the devs.

 

Yes, having three random quests (out of hundreds) line up for the same targets if you happen to manage the chains they are embedded in correctly is exactly the same as handing everyone a 50. 

 

I also fail to see how LoTRO would suddenly be a better game if it took ten times as long to level, or they removed all the quests.  I played a game like that, it was launch EQ.  No thanks.

nowhere did i say to remove content or make leveling 10 times slower.

I said it lacks QUALITY and INNOVATIVE content but rather is stuffed full with boring grind shit quests like we had them in dozens of other games before.

YOU where the one loving it to get 3 times the exp you should get for a certain mobhunt.

so why dont you love it to get 500 times that exp just at once? (here is your 50 - you won, congrats)

<modedit>

Being happy when random quest chains line up nicely if you manage them well is not the same thing as wanting to be handed a 50 on a silver plate.

Not only did you miss the point utterly, but you made the same point that I responded to again.

 

As for this:

nowhere did i say .... to make leveling . . slower

Your original response was:

Making a fast game even faster doesnt really line up nicely

The clear implication of this statement is that (1) you consider the pace of the game to be too fast and (2) having one set of low level quests line up for the same targets makes it even worse. 

So what did you mean?  Is the game way to fast or only a little too fast?  Or did you mean that the speed of the game would be just fine except for the three random warg quests?

No you never said make the levelling "ten times" slower.  But you did imply that it's too fast.

No-where did you ask for quests to be removed.  However you state repeatedly how "crappy" and "unoriginal" the quests are (from above "boring grind shit quests like we had them in dozens of other games before").  From the tone of your posts I assumed that you are someone that despises quest based solo friendly MMOs.  Was I mistaken?

<modedit>

Yes, once again you are mistaken and miss interpreting what is not meant in a text.

Your assumptions miss the point made by miles. What was said is that having 3-5 NPC's giving out the exact same quest mob is lazy cheap boring design, that speeds up the game uncalled.

The last thing lotro needs is shortcuts and speed-ups. Putting content in that was so obviously lazy and poorly thought of is just an insult to the players.

Innovative and dynamic quests that change their route depending on luck, current (dynamic) circumstances and player decission would spice things up much better than tripple exp.

Of course such quest concepts can not be copy pasted from other quests and take twice or three times the dev time. With an undemanding player base like you represent it thats of course a useless investment for a dev team.

Bursche

<modedit>

Originally posted by Yeebo

 

 

Originally posted by Bursche

 

Originally posted by jarish

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by erandur

Level 28, and I already HAD to take a break from it. Really pathetic way of filling the game up, just I noticed I have 3 identical quests at the moment.. just from a different npc, all kill 12 wargs....

You do realize that means you can get triple the XP you normally would by doing three quests at once?  I'm usually pretty happy when my quests line up that nicely. 

I totally agree I love it when I can kill mutliple birds with one stone.

Making a fast game even faster doesnt really line up nicely ;)

 

Why not just have exp for all alts at the same time too or even better: why not let players type in their wish level and DING. Welcome to Level 50.

It's the lack of innovative content he describes, giving a perfect example of lazy devs.

If you line them up you get 3 times the exp you should for this ammount of running and if you do them one after the next its just stupidly boring. No matter how you put it - its lazy by the devs.

 

Yes, having three random quests (out of hundreds) line up for the same targets if you happen to manage the chains they are embedded in correctly is exactly the same as handing everyone a 50. 

 

I also fail to see how LoTRO would suddenly be a better game if it took ten times as long to level, or they removed all the quests.  I played a game like that, it was launch EQ.  No thanks.

nowhere did i say to remove content or make leveling 10 times slower.

I said it lacks QUALITY and INNOVATIVE content but rather is stuffed full with boring grind shit quests like we had them in dozens of other games before.

YOU where the one loving it to get 3 times the exp you should get for a certain mobhunt.

so why dont you love it to get 500 times that exp just at once? (here is your 50 - you won, congrats)

<modedit>

Originally posted by jarish

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by erandur

Level 28, and I already HAD to take a break from it. Really pathetic way of filling the game up, just I noticed I have 3 identical quests at the moment.. just from a different npc, all kill 12 wargs....

You do realize that means you can get triple the XP you normally would by doing three quests at once?  I'm usually pretty happy when my quests line up that nicely. 

I totally agree I love it when I can kill mutliple birds with one stone.

Why not just have exp for all alts at the same time too or even better: why not let players type in their wish level and DING. Welcome to Level 50.

It's the lack of innovative content he describes, giving a perfect example of lazy devs.

If you line them up you get 3 times the exp you should for this ammount of running and if you do them one after the next its just stupidly boring. No matter how you put it - its lazy by the devs.

Ok against this overwhelmingly good argument "Las Vegas is more fun than EQ" i cant do much.

I wont find anything less challenging and rewarding than LOTRO to compare... maybe nosedigging, farting behind a tree? Hmm... nope, both activities require more than LOTRO does.

@otherposterabove:

yes most MMO's define difficulty with time sinks. In EQ many time sinks came from the difficulty not just waiting. You didnt just beat Corrinav or Rallos Zek the Warlord because you waited long enough or farmed something long enough, you had to bloody drill your team for the challenge until it was running like an oiled machine. Or even in solo play... i remember kiting hill giants 25 minutes per fight, with dying more than the whole thing was worth - but it was fun, as you never knew how the fight would end.

Of course there where endless camps - for those who decided to camp. In 7 years of EQ i camped only once and hated it - i never did it again. Its your own fault if you join a queue for a rarespawn with a raredrop.

Saying all MMO's deliver the same low quality level of challenge is just bullshit and someone had  to tell it tfox. It's like saying ALL restaurants just make food. - A true but utterly stupid generalisation.

So much MMO experience, so little wisdom.

The only one fooling himself here is an idiot who claims LOTRO was as difficult as EQ was or is. That is so priceless i wont even comment it anymore.

And for SoE removing roadblocks... MAN that is by nature of ALL MMO's with the massive ammount of content added in the past 8 years you cannot expect to attract new players if they need 5 years to catch up. It happens in LOTRO too already, they are trivialising their poor encounters already. You have so much MMO experience and still dont know this concept? ROFL. And wether you solo through plane of time next year doesnt make the original encounter and adventures we had there any smaller - it would only be bad if the latest expansion was trivialised to soloing. Like LOTRO almost is.

Originally posted by tfox2k1

LOTRO is the MMO for people who want to play a game and not experience a lifestyle change.   LOTRO is not about chasing the invisible carrot that you can never obtain.   Its not about being 'leet' or ganking people.  

MMOs in general are not 'hard' in any aspect.   They simply have different levels of  consuming time and annoyances.   No MMO I've experienced to date has thoughtful puzzles like Portal or intellectual challenges like online chess, or really intense split second decisions like those in a game of Counterstrike.   All MMOs are all basically dumbed down for the masses (Except maybe Eve which I haven't played.)

So stating WoW or EQ or <insert random MMO> is hard is not true.   LOTRO is less annoying that a lot of those so called 'harder' MMOs in that it doesnt require you to camp 24 hours to get a single piece of +1 loot.   It also doesn't mean you have to raid endlessly to compete in the end game PVP and have a chance.

LOTRO is about providing you with a very interactive storyline based upon the greatest work of fiction in modern history.   Giving you the best graphical experience of any current MMO.   Attracting the most mature audience in an MMO I've seen.    LOTRO has an experienced developer team that seems to really care about the community and the product and not to make a fast buck at the expense of the gamer or the IP. 

LOTRO also does something no other previous MMO has come close to accomplishing.   LOTRO made  a primary healer class that is actually extremely fun to play in the Minstrel.  

Overall LOTRO isn't perfect but the future is bright and its the best MMO we have in a rather stagnant market. 

If you need to get spend 8+ hours camping or raiding to get a +1 Axe of Leetness every night of your life, then LOTRO isn't for you.   If you need to run around ganking a bunch of 'noobs' with your +1 Axe of leetness and fooling yourself into thinking you're skilled while watching your EPEEN grow, then LOTRO isn't for you.  If you're a mature gamer who enjoys a high quality, immersive MMO, get it now!

Hurry though, lifetime membership for $199.00 (hell of a deal) ends 1 June 2008.

 

Everyone buying Lifetime now should be very sure he plays this game in 2 years still,  because yous see 6 month cards for cheap money often enough that 199$ will not pay off before 24 months have passed.

Lifetimers also completely loose out in all statistics, they can not unsubscribe to make clear the route of the game is bad. I would not jump on an LTA that "runs out soon" the offer will be refreshed, probably for less than 199$ too. When the game came out it was said that LTA was EXCLUSIVELY for founders only, now everyone can have it - so much about how you can trust CM or Turbine.

Originally posted by Larsa

 

Originally posted by Seiyuuki

...

I know the US version will have a higher number of (at least english speaking) suscribers. I'm based in the UK, and was wondering is there anything realy stoping me from playing the US version? ...

Or do you think I'd be better off just registering to the EU version. If you do, I'd like to get an outline of the ammount of players on the EU srvers please and thank you~

Not sure why you would want to play on one of the US servers when you're in the UK (apart from playing with friends in the US) but there will be little difference in subscribers, there are 11 servers in the US and there are 11 servers in Europe (5 English language, 4 German language and 2 French language).

 

Anyway, if you want to play on the US server you need to be careful not to buy the European client - you will not be able to connect to an US server with a European client, likewise US players cannot connect to the European servers with a US client. But once you have the correct client (digital download for example) and account setup there should be no problem. I play on the European RP server Laurelin and have a kinmate from the US and another from Australia playing on the European servers.

Population on Laurelin is just fine and I've never heard any complaints about too low population on other servers either.

Plenty of reasons why the US servers are the better choice.

First of all you can post on the US forums then, you can participate on the Lorebook. The turbine GM's seem to have more powers in game too, this can be seen when reading the forums.

It might also just be cheaper because you will pay in dollar not in euros but i am not sure about this.

the only downside might be that you will have no RP flagged server on the US side and perhaps you will miss out the crowded peak times when GM events happen. (if they ever happen)

So yes, it is very wise to check this option out.

Bursche

Originally posted by dragonace

 

Originally posted by Bursche

well if you cant accept your arguments to be discussed, perhaps you should not put them on the plate.

As I said, i just wanted to share my viewpoint since yours was so surprising to me. I find it kind of intresting that these are your pro arguments for this game altho you state that you know the old school MMO's too. Why did you play MMO's for 7 years if you found them so tedious and umm... unrewarding? I wouldnt even have sticked to the genre - let alone go to a simplified wannabe MMO to praise it as the cream of MMO design.

I have thought alot about lotro from early beta on and why they took the most famous fantasy license to copy&paste a cheap simplified niche MMO together instead of making a genre revolution to appeal to the genre fans. They had the chance to do that with this license - they didnt take the chance.

The product that came out has few pro's - i have given credit to those already and wont repeat them. But for the genre in generall its a setback and a missed chance. And thats the disappointing part of the story.

Once again: no flamin intended ;) im just discussing away and i enjoy reading your posts actually - as i always enjoy to learn other viewpoints in a discussion.

Bursche

I too am long in the MMO genre.  Started even before UO (The Realm was my first MMO).  I've played most of the well-known MMOs.  I stay with the MMO I'm playing until I stop having fun.

 

 

I switched from EQ2 to try out Vanguard... went back to EQ2.  When I got into the Beta for LoTRo... I left EQ2 and haven't even thought of going back.  I'll continue to play LoTRo as long as I'm having fun. 

 

For me, LoTRo is clearly the best and most fun MMO available.  Will that always be so?  Probably not, as nothing lasts forever.  I will say that a lot of the negatives mentioned don't occur in my playing experience, or in my sphere of friends and kinship.  Even in PUGs I don't see the attitude and carelessness that seems to plague the gameplay of other posters.  Perhaps I'm just lucky.

 

I'll disagree on the "goofing around" aspect that was hinted at not being possible in LoTRo.  Like having a group of low-levels go out and attack something, or make drunken runs to other other places, etc. 

First off, that poster must not have done any of the Spring Festival activities in LoTRo.  Heh... drunken fence running was most popular wasn't it?  The keg that you get as a reward (House item) when you drink from it and then pass out... when you come to, you are transported to some random location in the world.  Sometimes even impossible to reach locations... like the tops of mountains... the tops of buildings... in the middle of instances... etc.   Very fun stuff.

 

Then there is the whole session play as a chicken goofing around.   Come on... which other game let you play as a lowly chicken?  Sure, it's a bit goofy... but that's the point right?

 

Then you've got bands that play music at gathering places like The Prancing Pony, and the Auction Hall, or the Crafting Hall, etc.   It's pretty cool to listen and watch the crowd reactions to the impromptu bands. 

 

Then there are the player ran events.  If your kinship never did them... you should have looked for a new kinship.  It's fun to just take some time out to have fun from time to time.  We've done scavenger hunts, races with and without horses, runs to hard to get to places with level 5 or lower alts., hide and seeks, killing elite monsters with nothing but Upper-cut and Head-butt, etc. 

There are plenty of cool events that the game system not only allows but seems to encourage.  You just have to want to do it.

 

 

(almost) NOTHING!

The fun you take out of an MMO with these things is created by the people you do them with. Not the MMO. You can run similar events on every MMO out there if you find enough commedians to play with you.

You say LOTRO encourages to do such things, i say it limits me because the most stupid things are pointless: you cant drown so a "who dives longest without dying contest" is pointless.

A level 5 cannot harm a level 30 mob its capped out in fear of exploits i guess. In EQ 1 lvl 5 would die to a lvl 30 mob quick (even fully buffed and twinked) a group of 5 lvl5 could get a level 30 hill giant to what? 93%? I tell you what, a group of 30 drunken lvl 5 dwarfs killed a lvl 30 hill giant one day and had a big laugh.

But thats just 2 different viewpoints of equal quality. You say LOTRO encourages these side actions, i say it limits them. The point is - the side actions have nothing to do with LOTRO, they have not been invented by Turbine - its the players who do it. So swinging this flag as a lotro pro is pointless, you could swing it for every MMO, its one of the fascinating aspects of the MMO genre.

If you read Dragon Oaks posts, especially his last 2 ones and read between the lines you can work out two things easy:

At some point of his MMO childhood he must have been very disappointed with the players around him in EQ. He says they became greedy and no longer helpful and such.

YES, to a certain degree i agree - EQ did take a route it maybe should not have taken in such extremes. But do you honestly believe you will never be disappointed in lotro by other players? I remember lots of shouting and badmouthing in lotro when they introduced the "need/greed" system and people missusing it for their own benefit, letting others who really needed something alone. My personal experience in LOTRO was that it was full of kill stealing, loot stealing, ore stealing, wood stealing jerks who would let you die in a close combat so they can harvest the silver ore underneath you when you're dead.

In EQ i had hundreds of evenings where groups of dozens of people joined together to make one or two people happy. And that lasted until the very end. Dragon Oak said it was the socialising times of EQ and maybe he is right - in the beginning EQ was even more socialising friendly than it was later. Real dependancies on other classes where created, clerics where needed by everyone for their unique res skills.

Chanters where wanted for clarity. Later everyone had 2nd accounts or guilds had clarity and res bot side accounts. The dependencies broke up. And this created people who where more egoistic and less friendly + helpful. Modern MMO's make it so everyone can achieve everything with one account easy. Why do you think LOTRO had 5 char slots and 5 professions per account and server at start? So that nobody had to ask a tailor to help them smith but just log to their alt. In Jun 2007 my guildleader made us power his lvl 5 alts through the mastercrafting quests so he could grandmaster all professions with only lvl 5 toons and be INDEPENDANT of other players.

This independancy also includes: no more trading of resources from this account as he simply needs it all. No more AH buying of things he cant make himself. And so on and so on. It takes away a HUGE part of the socialising. This is not a LOTRO only problem, i hate this tendency in the complete genre but if LOTRO does one thing here - it makes it worse.

And the rushing part that dragon oak says is not happening in LOTRO. I can assure you if you try a roleplaying server and go to the green path and try to ROLEPLAY you will see 20 people rush past you who dont even realise your emote before one answers quickly and then runs off to his next quest goal.

Again guys, i am really happy for you if you have such a blast in LOTRO - but the reasons you give for that have only little to do with LOTRO itself. Dragon Oak clearly had an attitude problem in previous MMO's if he felt forced to rush, i never had this feeling in any MMO - i always took my time to level and enjoy this growing time learning my toon. In LOTRO however it was hard NOT to level too fast, even playing only 1 or 2 houers a night you can almost not avoid to hit 30 in less than 2 weeks.

I think as we are all veteran players we should not only look at the game we currently enjoy but also at the genre as a general, so that devs get feedback what sort of games are demanded.

And if i read one thing out of this thread and the discussion with you two then its, that you enjoy the social part most - yet i ask: Is Lotro really encouraging a social behaviour? What else encourages this aspect of MMO's? What have other games done for this aspect that was simplified out in WoW and LOTRO? Is it really good to simplify, limit and cap out everything where player interaction causes trouble from time to time? Is this road not leading to a totally unsocial single player MMO, where the only interaction happens in the auction house and the kinship? There will come games after LOTRO - do we want them to be even more solo friendly and less encouraging for socialising? Or do we give the devs the signal yes come on, give me more solo quests it takes forever to get exp past 45 solo.

Bursche

well if you cant accept your arguments to be discussed, perhaps you should not put them on the plate.

As I said, i just wanted to share my viewpoint since yours was so surprising to me. I find it kind of intresting that these are your pro arguments for this game altho you state that you know the old school MMO's too. Why did you play MMO's for 7 years if you found them so tedious and umm... unrewarding? I wouldnt even have sticked to the genre - let alone go to a simplified wannabe MMO to praise it as the cream of MMO design.

I have thought alot about lotro from early beta on and why they took the most famous fantasy license to copy&paste a cheap simplified niche MMO together instead of making a genre revolution to appeal to the genre fans. They had the chance to do that with this license - they didnt take the chance.

The product that came out has few pro's - i have given credit to those already and wont repeat them. But for the genre in generall its a setback and a missed chance. And thats the disappointing part of the story.

Once again: no flamin intended ;) im just discussing away and i enjoy reading your posts actually - as i always enjoy to learn other viewpoints in a discussion.

Bursche

Originally posted by DragonOak

 

Originally posted by vipjerry

One more thing, i cant understand why no one use this in game system to create fellowship. Its very hard to find decent group, most of the time impossible. This could be because there is not enough people in game.

I couldn't believe when i started conversation how many high levels 40+ never hear about coordinates and how you can use them in LOTRO.

I'm not exactly happy with this game and talking about community in LOTRO its most immature community from all games i ever tried. Sometimes i have a feeling that its all 10y old around me.

 

After playing EQ, WoW, SWG, Guild Wars, DAoC, LoTRO and a couple more I have forgotten about I think there is a strong possibility of the maturity level you are comparing LoTRO as to other games is quite mistaken.  I am sure you may have experienced immaturity in the game, for in sneaks into all games either a lot or a little.  But to compare it as an over extending amount of the player base at this time is just wrong.  MOST, if not nearly all, of the player base is of the more mature player type.  Best example of this is watch the advice channel when someone asks a question, and my proof is that is not filled with constant babbling about Chuck Norris, or how the person that asked such a stupid question clearly sucks at this game, or their epeen (err I mean gear) is totally huge and it RoXXers.

I will comment on this later - since your repeat it for lack of other points.

For the first time in 7 years I can play an MMO that I don't feel I have to log and and rush to level because all of the action is in the "end game". 

What does this have to do with LOTRO? I did that in every MMO i played? /shrug with the difference: In other MMO's there was an end game waiting for me. In LOTRO i am forced to wait for the next book updates or expansion.

For the first time I can smell the roses and enjoy the ride as I play the game and an enjoyable and leisurely  pace.

/shrug again - as mentioned above (you're repeating this point too...) what does that have to do with LOTRO? I sat in butcherblock mountains on the beach too and watched the sunset or went to the jungle and enjoyed the scenery and atmosphere. As a priest in EQ i celebrated weddings for guildmates in the most romantic locations. We had fun running drunk over kelethin bridges with level 1 alts, we did guild events where 30 level 5 toons tried to kille a hill giant without swords. I dont see what these things have to do with LOTRO? in fact, there is no point in trying these things in LOTRO - as the game mechanics are not complex enough to allow them.

I can ask questions about the game in the advice channel and OMGawdz get real answers.

I found it the opposite - the game helps you so much in the first 20 levels that most questions during this period where really stupid. Questgivers standing on the green path and someone asking where is the green path. People realised quick that the guy asking the question didnt bother to read the quest text at all - not even the yellow part and exactly the flaming down you describe happened. It then happened too when questions came that had a right to be asked (for really difficult to find things). I have witnessed this behaviour on Belegear in May 2007.

I can play a game that actually honors the originators view of the world they created rather than butcher it for the good of a few hardcores to maximize gameplay.  And I am reading Lord of the Rings yet again while I play the story through, and I can actually relate even more to the maps, mathom houses, the shire, etc. because of it.

You can? Where did Tolkien write that 95% of middle earth inhabitants are adventurers, where did he write that hobbits swarmed middle earth as powerful guardians and minstrells? Where in the books stands that almost everyone in middle earth killed quadzillions of animals to become a hero? Where are mosquitos mentioned that are bigger than a dwarf?  Again, for me it was the opposite - the lore is bent and backstabbed for the sake of MMO playability every 2 inchs. There isnt much left than names that sound familiar to a book i once read and loved or a movie i seen in the cinema.

I can play a game that is visually pleasing to my eye.

That of course is a matter of taste.  And i will not disagree here. LOTRO is pleasing the eye if you go first person view and stand next to a lake in nice weather. Lets just not look at animations or how trees jump from left to right while moving. If i ever gona write a cartoon story for my kids the pictures will come from LOTRO.

I can play a game that doesn't all of the sudden incorporate dinosaurs, space aliens, and demons to further a story line.

No you play a game where the fantasy is limitted to yet another balrog fight and yet another balrog fight and more balrog fights will come. We're at 2 now right? or is 2nd Balrog introduced with Moria?

I can enjoy all five factors of MMO gaming at this time, crafting, questing, soloing, grouping, and raiding.  And each is just as rewarding and proficient as the other.

Crafting? You call it crafting to watch a progression bar go from left to right and take your reward?

Questing? You call it questing to run from one landmark to the next (clearly given on your map) where no decission has any consequence other than a reward?

Soloing? My burglar did a lvl 39 GROUP quest solo when he was 29 and got an awesome dirk for it. Made the following quests very easy.

Grouping? most FFA groups are just hack&slash where you dont find any player skill as in 80% of LOTRO no skill is demanded so nobody bothered to achieve play skills. Kinship groups are fun for the chit chat tho. But what does that have to do with LOTRO? Put me in a voice chat with these people and i have fun too.

Raiding? see grouping.

I can enjoy combat mechanics that are more true to fantasy as Tolkien provided us than the giant fire ball, ice coment, corruption illusion of other games.

The combat system is stolen together from other games, basically WoW and EQ2. That lotro has no ice commets or giant fire balls is probably for the same reason why DAoC has no machine guns. The setting. By the way, the thing a loremaster throws through the air looks damn close to an ice commet. Having a raven fight for you is - umm... yeah. And that in the heat of battle, when the orc bashes my helm i just SCREAM at him or even better: take my guitar out and play a few tunes to KILL him... yes wonderful and real feel of battle - NOT.

Perhaps the reason some people get bored so easily with LoTRO is because effectively Turbine has taken the "carrot on a stick" away and replaced it with our own curious drive and need to explore the fantasy.

And thats the opposite for me too: Turbine took away any possibility to dream the fantasy further than what is allowed by the lore, thats why you dont fight Gods  in LOTRO but yet another Balrog. There will be no flying mounts for a long time because thats not in the lore. Turbine's carrot on the stick is the next book expansion. Because before its out you have nothing to do.

But everyone is entitled to their opinion, so of course if you enjoy all these points its your full right to do so :) no flaming  intended.

Bursche

I dont know, the only trolling i see in this thread is by some feared fanboy who is worried someoen could throw mud on his beloved precious.

I respect LOTRO for what it is and thats not much.

LOTRO has 2 innovative elements for me that bring the MMO genre forward.

a) trying the concept of interactive story telling.

b) the fun music system.

In many other aspects it just disappointed me.  In some cases its a true step backwards. That begins when running through another character causes no collision. It feels so ugly when ur used to games with "solid" models. And it ends when you realise that there are almost no queststs that demand a decission to be made which causes a consequence for your toon other than a reward.

The oh so celebrated graphics is only good as long as you dont watch any animation.

Why did they even bother with PvMP? Why waste resources for a side game that has no influence on the story or the world at all?

And you applaude they fix bugs quickly? I think they are rather slow with it, the auction house bug was in for weeks. I also found it very frustrating that EU players - altho paying more than the US players are treated second class. Loads and loads of disadvantages compared to the US servers. Most annoying is that the EU players have no access to the Lore Book yet almost 1 year after release. (Or is that fixed now?)

LOTRO is a simplified WoW clone with a niche audience. If it was a good MMO with that license you could read "2 MILLION SUBSCRIPTIONS NOW!" - "3 MILLION SUBSCRIPTIONS NOW" everywhere over the net. But its not a good MMO its only a good license hiding behind nice landscape graphics.

Call it  trolling but this thread discusses the downsides of LOTRO - which can clearly be seen when reading the title of the thread - if you disagree, why do you even bother to troll this thread?

Bursche.

umm you guys completely miss the point (probably deliberately but oh well...)

First of all, if you read my initial reply carefully again you will see that i didnt even critisise LOTRO. LOTRO is a good game ok? The difference is that its a different concept - its interactive story telling which seems very popular since so many enjoy consuming a story they have no influence on and already know the outcome.

I find this new concept quite intresting and entertaining in a certain way - and will of course look into lotro from time to time just out of curiosity how it developes.

The examples i gave where made for different intention in everquest yes - they where to avoid mass farming of the items dropping from nagafen and other bosses. But they had the intresting side effect that guilds had to communicate and check certain things in tne world, spy alts where placed all over the world to always have a good knowledge what is going on in norrath AT THE GIVEN TIME. LOTRO has no given time at all - all it has is story consuming carbon copies of core class templates. Enough people at the right step: Woot! lets unlock the next 20 seconds of the cartoon movie story.

What is amusing is that you guys keep defending lotro as a "next generation mmoRPG" which it is clearly not. Maybe i am picking beans here when i say - yes its a "next generation MMO" but thats just how i am. I respect everyone who has fun in LOTRO - i had fun too for a while because the atmosphere IS nice at start (only disturbed by stupid and ugly animations but else: perfect).

Yes live and let live, for me LOTRO is not to play, i will look once in a while but at the moment i have no motivation, because watching a cartoon movie is not why i play games. But now its easter holiday and i hope you all have fun in middle earth spring "event" thingy.

Hope that cleared some things up :)

Bursche

So you've played some MMO's too? nice.

Then you surely know that once Nagafen was killed you couldnt come 10 seconds later with an alt and just kill him again - you had to bloody wait a week for the respawn. The guys who killed him had for a decent time changed the virtual world!

And that felt much more authentic than any instance timers and such.

Or when Hiberniens in DAoC controlled the castles for weeks due to their massive effort TOGETHER defending in bigger and smaller battles. Yes they changed the game for a while at least.

Or if i recall correct in WoW once a certain boss was killed everyone got a buff for a while? right? and that boss was gone for a while right too?

And now look at lotro, you can fail the book quests as often as you wish, sauron doesnt get any stronger.  You can defeat the ballrog once, twice or 6 billion times - it changes nothing for the next in queue to consume this bit of the story.

I have given you 3 examples where games started to go into the dynamic world programming - and lotro is a setback, a disappointment because its 100% instanced, 100% linear 100% prepared story to consume. It tastes like prechewed food.

Even the rating here agrees that lotro is a wonderful product with lack of fun. when i see that its average is 8.4 and the fun factor is 7.8 that rings a bell you know.

And the graphics are not 9.2 - the world design is lovely yes - but the animations are worse than anything i've seen in a very long time - let alone the ugly horses. This product is 100% created for good screenshots because graphic sells. Animations cannot be seen on a screenshot.

Bursche

Originally posted by dragonace

 

Originally posted by Bursche

 

Originally posted by Vyeth

Im trying Lotro now.. And I am one of the "ones" who enjoyed Vanguard, just decided to try something new.. And Lotro from what I have seen so far has some very good points (atmosphere..very nice atmosphere).. But one thing that leaps right out at me, is the classes.. Im not sure if it is because I have gotten to used to the really unique vanguard classes or what, but the classes seem to be very linear and each will all end up the very exact same it seems.. No trees to specialize or differeintiate your character from others in the same class so I don't know, it seems that when group making comes down it will be a question of gear?

I dunno.. I'm actually enjoying myself though, I have a pretty good attention span for most new mmos I try so I will give it a good month...

 

No its not down to gear.

 

Its not down to your character either.

You need to leave that behind you - your avatar cannot be special in Lotro, not gearwise, not skillwise, not really playstyle wise (with very small exceptions).

The difference between lotro and other games is that its not focussed around your avatar but around the story happening in middle earth. That story plays the main role, your avatar plays only a supernumerary role (hope i got that word right from translation help).

This is changing now, Turbine listens to the players demanding more diversity, they added the looks armor from level 20 on (because 3 months ago everyone even looked the same!) and they annoucned that with moria expansion 2 new classes will join the only 7 classes currently available.

compared to EQ2 and VG the diversity of LOTRO is far far behind. But EQ2 and VG dont have this wonderful background story and this amazing setting.

Personally i liked this new concept until i realised that i have no role in the story. The atmosphere (which is wonderful in the beginning) died for me when i realised that leveling my toon makes ZIRO difference in middle earth. I could just as well watch the movies in banded armor and swing swords in front of the television. The actors would be just as impressed.

So to sum it up:

LOTRO follows the concept of interactive story telling. You press certain buttons to progress the story. Turbine makes sure this is easy enough for almost EVERYONE to see the story and rendered movies.

In other games that lack the story you press your buttons to progress your avatar, change the outcome of battlefields sieges and wars. Take influence on the virtual world you travel.

It will be intresting to watch how Turbine developes their product, currently they are completely changing the route and bringing more and more elements of real RPGs into the game wonder if everyone will like it that this game IS turning to be more gear and skill focussed.

Bursche

 

 

I disagree.

 

 

See, I've played those other 2 games you mentioned as well.  (EQ2 & Vanguard)

 

I feel my character has a much more active role in LoTRo than I ever did in those other games.  In LoTRo I'm following along with the fellowship.  I'm helping out with problems that the main fellowship simply does not have the time to take care of themselves.  They need my help to accomplish the vast number of requests that keep pouring in from their harassed populace.   (Plus, I'm having a blast doing it! )

 

So, for  you... those other games had the shizzle... great, you've found your game(s).  For me... and many others... LoTRo provides us with everything that we've been looking for. 

 

It feels silly to log into an alt where Gandalf stands here while 10 seconds earlier he was 500 miles away.

No you play nada role in this story, you just consume it thats all. If the servers where dead and there was only 1 person playing he would still get the same story to consume. Nothing would change. I'm glad you all found your mainstream soap mmo tho. Just hope its the last of its kind and we can have more true rpg's in the next generation with worlds that are not static. (I bet that building site near green path is still not finished, nor have they moved one piece of wood or finished one nail.)

And thats why i am looking forward to more sandbox like games where guilds craft ships TOGETHER (not solo /sigh) where they build castles TOGETHER and where the server community follows an epic plot TOGETHER and not single player wise.

Bursche

Originally posted by Vyeth

Im trying Lotro now.. And I am one of the "ones" who enjoyed Vanguard, just decided to try something new.. And Lotro from what I have seen so far has some very good points (atmosphere..very nice atmosphere).. But one thing that leaps right out at me, is the classes.. Im not sure if it is because I have gotten to used to the really unique vanguard classes or what, but the classes seem to be very linear and each will all end up the very exact same it seems.. No trees to specialize or differeintiate your character from others in the same class so I don't know, it seems that when group making comes down it will be a question of gear?

I dunno.. I'm actually enjoying myself though, I have a pretty good attention span for most new mmos I try so I will give it a good month...

 

Its not down to your character either.

You need to leave that behind you - your avatar cannot be special in Lotro, not gearwise, not skillwise, not really playstyle wise (with very small exceptions).

The difference between lotro and other games is that its not focussed around your avatar but around the story happening in middle earth. That story plays the main role, your avatar plays only a supernumerary role (hope i got that word right from translation help).

This is changing now, Turbine listens to the players demanding more diversity, they added the looks armor from level 20 on (because 3 months ago everyone even looked the same!) and they annoucned that with moria expansion 2 new classes will join the only 7 classes currently available.

compared to EQ2 and VG the diversity of LOTRO is far far behind. But EQ2 and VG dont have this wonderful background story and this amazing setting.

Personally i liked this new concept until i realised that i have no role in the story. The atmosphere (which is wonderful in the beginning) died for me when i realised that leveling my toon makes ZIRO difference in middle earth. I could just as well watch the movies in banded armor and swing swords in front of the television. The actors would be just as impressed.

So to sum it up:

LOTRO follows the concept of interactive story telling. You press certain buttons to progress the story. Turbine makes sure this is easy enough for almost EVERYONE to see the story and rendered movies.

In other games that lack the story you press your buttons to progress your avatar, change the outcome of battlefields sieges and wars. Take influence on the virtual world you travel.

It will be intresting to watch how Turbine developes their product, currently they are completely changing the route and bringing more and more elements of real RPGs into the game wonder if everyone will like it that this game IS turning to be more gear and skill focussed.

Bursche

I play the game for 3 days now and i really duno what you guys are talking about.

Yes there are some annoying things:

In the battle over an outpost with 20 players and 50 monsters the framerate drops significantly. Not sure if thats my system tho.

Some Text windows are overlapping making it hard to read everything in a text box.

I havent found a mail system yet not sure if its in the game or not.

BUT:

This game is thrilling! Its a nice change from the boring mainstream fantasy MMO's flooding the market. I've done a few of the lower instances now and really enjoyed them! Looking forward to see alot more of that. The combat is fun fun fun - and the AI is sometimes really good.

This game is FUN. It has some flaws but i accept them and hope for upcomming patches.

I can only suggest the naysayers here buy a copy of the game and build their own opinion instead of being manipulated by stupid articles from questionable sources.

Bursche