Good article, with a lot of great points.

Again, as stated, couldn't agree more with your #1 and #2 choices, UO and DAoC.

Everyone who ever played DAoC knows why RvR was awesome, and they keep repeating it. Then Mythic ignored it with WAR to make it a bastard child of WoW and DAoC that no one really wanted.. Where are the destructible keeps? The perssitant battlegrounds? Free-moving siege? Did you guys completely forget everything you learned from DAoC for t his crap?

As for UO, well, I like many others could spout on for hours. Come back after what is now 12 years, and see how many people still at least occasionally play their current MMO. You'll never find a higher degree of customer loyalty.

As a side note, I also noticed, what is it about Trinsic that makes people so loyal? It's the only city mentioned in message boards with any connotation of citizenship....Yeah, Trinsic is awesome. My entire guild was focused around that city.. I've been resubbed for about a year or so now to UO.. I've spent well over 90% of my time there, crafting, working up skills, getting houses closer to the city gates, demolishing, repeating..  Sadly, all by myself... But since I"m in Trinsic, it's like I don't care!

Excellent article, and I agree with the heart of it, but I will say this:

From this point on, it's going to be difficult to impossible to not make the comparison to WoW for the very reason stated - It's a language. And as has been pointed out in the past, we think in language, so changing not just the terminology but changing the very way people think about MMO's is not going to be so simple by just introducing niche games.

The comparison with the McDonald's fails because no critic uses language unique to McDonalds (Or to be more accurate, whatever came before McDonald's to compare to the EQ reference in relation to WoW). They don't say, "The Big Mac in Burger King is the Whopper". They use an entirely different language to make comparisons.

I'd have to say UO because of the crafting, RP potential, open skill system, housing, and community.

DAoC is a very close second. RvR of this type hasn't been matched on any level yet that I've experienced.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

I have not played DAoC but do you trust Mythic can deliver DAoC2?

See how badly they messed WAR which came after DAoC. With all their experience with DAoC they still managed to mess up badly with WAR.

What is worrying is that if  the success of DAoC was down to 3 realms, (if being the operative word here) then Mythic either knew WAR would fail or think they could make it work with two. Either way they failed. Hence putting the success of DAoC 2 in serious doubt.

What was the lag like in DAoC and if it was not bad then why is it so bad in WAR?

They messed up with WAR for several reasons:
 

1) They were bound by the IP. Everything they did had to go through Games Workshop. EVERYTHING. With DAoC, they had complete freedom. It was their own IP, and they did what they wanted.

2) 3 realms DOES make a big difference. Tension between 2 sides is predictable. Throwing in a third makes things a lot more interesting. Had you played DAoC, you might have known that.

3) They were trying to compete with WoW and counting on the IP alone to make it happen. They dropped everything unique about DAoC to make it as close to WoW as possible, just with different skins. There are no destructable keeps in WAR, no third faction, classes have mirrors on either side only with minor differences, and the attempt at unique trades was a  horrible failure (DAoC's weren't GREAT, but the major ones like weaponcrafting and the like were at least THERE).

4) They focused TOO much on PvE, not enough on RvR. Anyone who played DAoC can tell you, originally, PvE was bare minimum. People would spend days in Albion (Before Shourded Isles) waiting to get a tree group in Lyoness so they could finish to 50.. Then getting your class armor for RvR (And it was THE RvR armor to have in it's day) took at least 30 people, but you needed to do it to be competitive. Everyone helped because they all knew eventually they'd need it too.

5) Global cooldowns.. You didn't have that in DAoC. That makes a BIG difference in a PvP game.

6) Casters could be interrupted in DAoC..  That makes a BIG difference in a PvP game.

7) Did I mention destructible keeps? I know everyone loved old frontiers, and in a lot of ways, that's what the new keeps in WAR are like, with only certain points of entry, but I LOVED that I could take down almost any wall and go through it in NF. That was the one big selling point for NF in my opinion.

 

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

They wouldn't spring for a new engine for Warhammer. Why would you expect them to do so for DAoC?

They don't need a new engine for DAoC.

Both WAR and DAoC use different versions of the Gamebryo engine. The differences in version can make a big difference, as is evident when you look at screens of DAoC and screens of Warhammer. Texture processing capabilities, poly counts, resolution.. This engine is just fine as long as you implement it correctly.

And has everyone already forgotten the easter egg on the Chaos side in WAR? If you jump in to the portal at one of the starting Chaos zones, you're transported to one of the Albion starting zones just outside of Camelot (Can't even remember the name, it's been so long), only the ENTIRE TOWN is redone in the new version of the engine..... And it is GLORIOUS to look at.

Not only is updating DAoC with the WAR version of the Gamebryo engine a good idea that should be persued.. They've already shown it can be done. It's almost a foregone conclusion that they will at this point.

What they do with game mechanics (Balancing classes, abilities, Old/New Frontier hybrids - Does anyone NOT like the fact that walls are destructible in NF?) is the bigger question, and if it warrants a "2" moniker.

I do like the idea of coming back to Camelot though. If they do just do an upgrade and somehow revert some aspects of the game, I hope they keep all the zones, even if it's just for random PvE, because I'd love to see SI, ToA, and Catacombs areas done in the new engine.

Originally posted by snicol

Thinking about coming back, i have an account from Jan 98 still retrievable. My question is what is the population like on GL shard? And if its kinda defunct do they have server transferablity? Thanks all cant wait to get back ingame.

Sorry, can't speak for GL, but I can tell you, you can buy Transfer tokens for characters. If you go to the site below, you can buy a transfer code for a character.

http://www.uogamecodes.com/store/prod_detail.asp?ProdID=UOCHARTRANSFER&CartID={0DE63ADC-5197-4B57-9BC8-7333DFE4470D}&PromoID=996

Hope this helps.
 

Originally posted by MaeEye

Catskills has a great amount of people as well, but I think the community in Catskills is some of the best in the game.  There are some great player run events that happens too (each month Hawkeye Pike will have a black market sale...it's really engaging)

Have to agree with you there. I play on Catskills as well, and it's been my home since 1998. Some really great people I've met in my time there.

We have much in common, MaeEye. I also am a UO vet who enjoy's WoW.

Originally posted by Erlijus

So my question : is this "Enhanced client" the only modern option for playing the game? Or is there a 3rd client (the one you are refering to as 3d client) that I am not aware of?

It is the only modern option that will be supported. The client is much more stable. The Enhanced Client as it is now called was more stable in beta for me than KR was at release and well beyond, and I say that as someone who was in closed beta for KR and closed beta for everything Stygian Abyss related.

Secondly, there is  a reason the older graphics are what is used. The problem with having a game over a decade old is that people grow accustomed to how the game looks and feels. KR was a radical shift in the art style, and it was unnerving for a lot of players. The hope at launch of KR was to get a 95% adoption rate so that they could discontinue the classic client. Needless to say, they weren't even in the same solar system as that number. The older lookin art in the enhanced client is a conscious decision on the part of the Dev's to increase the adoption rate, and I think, a smart one. You can't just change they appearnce (or style) of a virtual world people have inhabited for over a decade and expect it to go over well, even if it offers a higher resolution.

To really move forward, they need to get as many people playing the game as possible on one client. They should have taken the old style and bumped up the quality and redid the assets so they were smoother. Saphireena, a UO Stratics poster, showed what UO could look like at a higher resolution, and still keep the style.

http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/hrc_unicorn.shtml

The style of UO has always been liked by it's players.. Now it's the resolution they need to address.

Originally posted by maplestone

Out of curiosity, why is UO talked about in the past tense?  It still exists, it's still actively played.

Excellent article. And what Maple says is true. I still play it myself.

It's long in the tooth, but the heart of what made it great is still there. Unfortunately, most people can't get by the outdated elements of a game nearly a decade old, and are to used to having a very linear progression with spoon-fed content. It's a byproduct of advancement and mass marketing, I suppose.

But world is still there to enjoy. It's complex, diverse, and still interesting, even for it's age.

TankTester: I’d have said something sooner, but the note didn’t say how much of a bonus…

CP: serghjklgeshdthui

(The community person goes AFK with the imprint of his keyboard still on his forehead.)



Hahahahahaa! Excellent.

Very nice article.
 

Excellent article, Sanya, as always.

I find your point about faliure and level of expertise in crafting is very true, but so is the risk element your friend states crafters need. To a point, you're both right.

If you haven't played UO in a while, do so, if for no other reason than crafting. It's the perfect blend, in my opinion, of what crafting in a game SHOULD be.

1) Lots of harvesting for gains. This may sound dull, but it's done in such a way that you get a decent quantity very quickly. How realistic is it that you can advance your skill, as a crafter, with 2 pieces of metal?

2) You do fail and lose materials. A lot. This makes sense because, hey, you're LEARNING the trade. You're going to make mistakes. Ever have to make a set of toaster tongs in shop class in high-school? If you mess up, that piece of wood you messed up with isn't going to be used for anything else, save tooth picks.

3) When you master a carft, the lower level stuff is almost gaurnteed to not fail. As you said, it makes sense, that higher level stuff even a master can struggle with, but entry-level items and equipment are easily done.

4) There's a LOT more control and diversity in crafting coming with the new UO expansion, Stygian Abyss. Imbuing is just one aspect.
 

5) Variety. Carpentry, Tinkering, Blacksmithing, Tailoring, Alchemy, Fletching, Cooking, soon Imbuing. So many different crafts, for so many different purposes, from the standard equipment and potions, to stuff that's just pure marzipan for housing.

It's for these reasons that I think UO has the best elements of both realism and practicality in a game's crafting system that you simply can't find anywhere else. Crafting is the chief reason I still play UO to this day. I love it. I love the slowness, the steady pace of it. It's cathartic. It's something you do because you love to do it, not because you need to. And the fact that I feel the community is so much better than other games I've played (At least he community I'm in, in terms of guild, server, etc.), and RP is more prevelant in that community (Again, the one I play in) doesn't hurt either.

Originally posted by Septs_Shadow

All of that right there.

Some of my fondest MMO memories were on the Catskills shard.  That game promoted real player communities, something that has been hard to find since.

Catskills, eh?  Cool. That's my home shard, and I still play there.

Who was your character? What guild? How long since you've been on?
 

Originally posted by Thaenei

I still would like to have UO 2.

At the time they cancelled it i could not believe it.

I still want a game like this (skill based no levels, skilll tree with hundreds of skills ...)

 

Couldn't agree more. UO is still the best MMO I've ever played. It does, however, suffer very bad from issues due to it's age. It's time for a reboot.

Picture UO, Pre-tram, with all the lessons learned since then, corrected, brought into a modern client, 3D or graphics.. Keep the geography exactly as is.. Keep custom housing, the crafting, and the highly customizable everything, from dyes to skills.. Now add city wars (Each city is it's own faction, instead of the current "Factions" system) and siege.  In a true 3D client? Yes please!

The core problem, especially in games like WoW, is itemization. While individual skill does play a factor, it's eclipsed by equipment. Allow me to explain why this is a problem, and why it feeds into the "Casuals must have something similiar" mentality.

Take the best, say, Warrior you can think of. Put them in any scenario, such as in a raid or in a battleground. The same player with the same abilities is going to perform RADICALLY different depending on their equipment. They might know the raid tactics cold, and in the best gear, are superb - Without the gear, that exact same person is deadweight in your raid. He might be a champ in battlegrounds, knowing how to chose his targets and fight appropriately with excellent gear, but the instant you put them in freshly-turned-80 gear, they're going to get creamed, six ways from Sunday by the first mediocre to poor Arena-geared player he crosses.

And what is the main differential? Time. Time, and time alone. It's often not a matter of social inclination, or capability or knowledge. It's merely time.

Now, how do we value time? Is a 5 consecutive hour block of time more valuable than 5 hours total time played scattered throughout the day? Why should one be worth more or less than the other, when we all pay the same fee?

WoW is about rewarding players for their time investment. I used to do raids in the past, pre-BC. I don't have that kind of time anymore. That's why I've turned to battlegrounds and Wintergrasp for my equipment needs, with the occasional VoA. It fits my schedule, and I can get gear that, while not as good as those who raid and run Arenas, helps me stay competitive. I've dusted the floor with well-equiped players in just my Honor gear, because, quite frankly, I was a better player than them in some fashion.  And even with PvP gear, I can do SOME raids on the off chance that I do have the time to devote to it. It sucks that I can't do heroic versions of some of the raids and dungeons, when it's not my skill that's in question, it's just I'm not itemized for it yet.

If you did not have this alternative path to relaitvely competitive gear for those without long durations of time to devoute to it, what would the casual player do? Keep leveling alts until they hit the same road block? 

Wouldn't have much fun doing that. That's the way I see it anyway.

I give this entry two thumbs up for two reasons:

1)  Bill Hicks icon. Yes, that warrants a thumb-up in my book.

2) Content. Although I will nit-pick, being the grammar you-know-what I can be, and say commas are not your friend. Run on sentences kinda break the flow of the words in odd ways, but that's a small concern. Excellent choice of images, and overall, it was a good overview.

Nicely done.

Originally posted by Jenuviel

I guess this article just shows you can't possibly like everything a writer writes. I normally think Dana's stuff is well-written and worth reading, but this whole article smacked of personal bias, whether or not that was the intent. If it had been about the financial viability of roleplaying servers (or rather, the lack thereof), or any sort of intellectual observation of the culture clash between roleplayers and non-roleplayers, I would've been onboard. The majority of the thing read like a personal attack against roleplayers in general, however. I found it to be in poor taste, and I'm not even a roleplayer myself.

 

"Most of the so-called role-players don’t really want to role-play; that is their fiction. They want to be victims."

"[Roleplayers are] such a vast minority that they probably couldn’t support more than one guild, let alone an entire server."

"Within five minutes, even the most pious cleric will be on TeamSpeak cybering the Troll if left to their own devices."

"The sick truth is that this kind of role-player does it because they will have something to get high and mighty about."

 

Another interesting quote: "It’s time to face the fact that no video game, noRPG, let alone MMORPG, has ever truly fostered role-playing."

That's just patently false. I played MUDs for about a decade before coming to MMOs, and there are multitudes of the things out there that require character approval (to make the player's backstory and concept "fit")l before they even let you log in. I stuck to more hack 'n slash stuff, but there are entire categories of  MU* codebases out there built around nothing but roleplaying. Look up MUSH or MUX sometime.

 

Of course the scenario above wouldn't work in MMOs; MMOs are profit-based, whereas MU*s are owned and operated by hobbyists. Dana's quote doesn't limit itself to MMOs, though. It overreaches with hyperbole, just like the entire first half of the article. The whole thing felt like axe-grinding. The article started by calling roleplaying servers "foul and dark," hurled various and sundry insults at the players themselves, then lauded EVE Online. Congratulations, Dana. You just used better-than-average sentence structure to write a worse-than-average EVE forum post. 

 

Because you've shown on multiple occasions that you're a better writer than this, I'll cut you some slack and give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to your intentions. Why don't you do the same thing for some of those "sick, troll-cybering whiners." If they all want to be victims as you suggest, you were just playing into their hands by writing an article like this, and we wouldn't want that.

Couldn't agree with this post more, especially the highlighted paragraph.
 

In my past, I have played Ultima Online in a former top-end RP guild on Catskills (Pre and Post Trammel - Currently still playing as well) , an RP, PvP, and PvE  server in DAoC(Percival, Mordred, Gaheris), and a few MUDs.
 

In my more recent history, I  originally started on a WoW PvP server at launch, but about 2 or so years ago (maybe less), I started playing on a RP server. As someone who played for about equal times and to equal extent on both server types (Up to level 70 on PvP, after BC was launched, and now 2 level 80's on the RP server) in this highly popular game, and given my past experience, I think I'm in a safe position to state the folowing (Using WoW as a reference point, because it has the large population numbers, but per capita, it holds true to me in the other games I've played):

1) There IS a behavioral difference, a noticable one, between people on PvP servers and RP servers. The RP server I play on seems to have a much more mature quality than the PvP server I was on. Are there still Chuck Norris jokes, barrens chat, and all-around jackasses? Of course there are. This is WoW. It's unavoidable. But you can STILL notice it.

2) You're not elite, hard-core, better-geared, or more knowledgeable because you play on a non-RP server. I've seen players in battlegrounds and arenas on my RP server that put players who were chasing Grand Marshal on the PvP server to shame. I mean, these guys on the PvP sever, they weren't scrubs - Some of the groups I ran with had at least 1 Grand Marshal back when honor was first introduced, and lots of them ended up getting at least Captain or better.  And I can safely say, having run with these kinds of groups, that I've seen some amazing talent on my RP server where I know they would simply crush the PvP players I've seen in the past. And more often than not, people who disdane RP servers use the fact that they are on a PvP server as some kind of crutch to support their claim that they are better players. This simply isn't true.

3) I prefer to have a choice of when I RP or not. I played UO, and with the guild I was in, RP was a way of life. OOC chat in guild chat was fine, but you did NOT break character when seen in public. When we fought other guilds in battles, you used the death robe, and you obeyed the no-looting rule, or you were out. There was no excuse. We obviously had a tolerance level for those new to RP, but if after extended time they still couldn't quite fit in, they were gone.. Usually they left of their own accord.  

But in games like WoW, which doesn't exactly tailor to the RP mindset like UO did (Character customization, housing, furniture, skills and trades, etc., are much superior in UO than WoW in my opinion), and the fact that it's lore is so broken with inconsistencies, there's elbow room. I can go months never once acting in character, and when the mood strikes me, I know where I can go to likely find others who wish to roleplay as well. And despite what others have said, I've NEVER had a problem finding people willing to accept my part-time RP behavior, even the most "hard-core" RP characters on WoW have been very accommodating and understanding. I can't say the same for PvP players who knock anyone for, not even RP'ing, just using complete sentence structures.


This whole article smacks of PvP elitism which is completely unjustifyable, misplaced, and ignorant. Your bias shines through, and I can't help but wonder if you have some personal vendetta against RP players. Or to put it in a way I'm sure you can relate to: Someone got butthurt by an RP'er.



 

Well if it has been covered, I didn't see it. My apologies.

But even  for a charity, that's a LOT to pay for a video game. Kinda impressive.

I knew MO looked good, but someone must think it looks REALLY good.

cgi.ebay.com/Mortal-Online-Limited-Edition-no-1-Mortal-For-Life_W0QQitemZ320389517168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVideo_Games_Games

That's right. Someone paid $5,100 dollars for the 1st edition of an online game that isn't even out yet. If that was a beta player, it's a really good sign.


 

Originally posted by Simsu

 Old school Dragon Warrior!

Hell Dragon Warrior 3 already had lots of classes, good grouping, banks, mini games, reclassing and a hero class! The hard work is already done! Easy money, lol...

Btw.. I'm not old.. I was just born a long time ago... ...

Ahh.. Dragon Warrior 3.. Great, great game, with good memories. I'd second that.

Also, I'd second:

Suikoden
Legacy of Kain

Hell, Suikoden always has at least 108 characters, it's practically there. And Legacy of Kain, you could have it set in the time of when Moebius is at war with the Vampires.. Although I'm sure with an MMO, I'd be sorely disappointed with the quality of dialog, after the amazing dialog in Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance, particularly. The voice acting is incredible, and the most memorable quote? When Kain and Raziel meet at the pillars in SR2, talking about 2 sides of a coin, when Kain says, "Apparently so.. but suppose you flip a coin enough times.. Suppose one day.. It lands on it's edge.."

Still get chills thinking about that quote in that voice... But for the edification of all, here's a video of that dialog. Watch, and be amazed at what good dialog in a game looks like:
www.youtube.com/watch

To get to Luna, just go to any Moongate. On the left side of the menu, you'll see Malas, from there, click on Luna. Only Felucca has PvP on any non-Siege Perilous shard.

You can only go there if you have Age of Shadows or better account, or even any of the anniversary editions.

Go to uo.stratics.com, from there, go to the UHALL forum. The Devs read there if you have any account questions, or people who know more about what you need than I do.

Hope this helps.