Rift is more of the same. Prepare to be bored.

My two room mates and I played Rift in Beta and everyone concluded that there was nothing special or original about it at all. If you like WoW, there's no reason to leave it. If you don't like WoW, then you won't like Rift. There's a reason people compare so many MMOs to WoW. Let me fill you in: THEY'RE EXACTLY LIKE WOW.

If you want NEW aspects or at least different aspects from WoW you'll have to play things like Eve, Xsyon, or SWGEMU. Rift is more of the same, and MMO vets are bored for good reason. We've seen this a dozen times. Rift is the Justin Beiber of MMOs, some people love him because they've either never listened to Nirvana or are stupid kids, and everyone else hates him because he's so bland, safe, and uninteresting. 0 credit to Rift for anything but being yet another iteration of EQ/WoW. Anyone who wants a fresh or deep scene, try those games I mentioned.

Thing is, so many games DO copy/paste WoW (Rift is one of them) that to say that they don't is a disservice to games and gamers in general. Acting like the EXACT same UI, combat, and quest systems in a game as there is in WoW is somehow that game NOT copying WoW and suggesting that this game is somehow original is just irresponsible and lazy. Please stop pandering to the lackluster, mainstream, uninventive, churn-out-a-levelgrind-copy games which have no interesting content or original ideas. There is literally NOTHING new about Rift AT ALL. Ininspired and mediocre craps like this should be despised as the bland, time-wasting garbage they are. They're the Justin Beibers of video games; seen it a million times, and completely boring. Acting like these games aren't copypasta of "safe" IPs is doing harm to games that truly don't copy the WoW/EQ formula of grind/loot, like Xsyon and Pre-Cu SWG. It's a shame, sir, a damn shame.

Even Diablo and Borderlands have some kind of PVP...

There's really not much point in playing an MMORPG if it has no kind of PVP whatesoever, unless you have friends who aren't within' driving distance. I dunno... it's just kind of pointless.

MMORPGs should be nearly entirely shaped by their PVP content, because that's the only thing that separates them from single player or coop games. Single player RPGs (like Mass Effect 2) are always going to do PVE better, so why bother?

Originally posted by Haggis13

1. Is the game really about running back and forth killing goblins, banking the money and items you make in the process? I realise there's more to it than that, for instance in the form of sieges, but is there anything besides sieges? Can I, for instance, if I rather would, become a crafter and craft complicated, expensive items for a profit, and if I choose to do so, will that also mean that, BECAUSE I focus on crafting, I will be a better crafter and be able to craft significantly better products than somebody who mostly focuses on combat and does crafting on the side? Or can a character excel at everything, eventually probably leading to that same repetitive gameplay of gearing up and going for sieges?
2. Does the game's combat system shoe-horn you into a particular play style? From what I can see, one has to take up magic on the side and focus on melee skills. Is it a viable option for me to only focus on melee, to only focus on ranged, or to only focus on magic? By this, I mean to ask whether I could choose to ignore melee, for instance, focus on magic instead, and still have a fairly equal chance (obviously depending on personal skill) of beating an equally skilled opponent who has opted for melee. Despite not liking class systems very much, can I actually BE a DPSer who relies on magic, a tank who excels at slowing his opponents and being on the frontlines, a warlord type of character who is particularly good at increasing his allies' capabilities, etcetera? Or are we all paladins with magic for seasoning?

I guess the bottom line of my questions is: to what extent is this game really a sand-box rather than a MMOFPS with some RPG elements like skills and stats tacked on?

This game is honestly about doing whatever you want, and don't let anyone else ever tell you otherwise. All the people complaining about the grind "required" to be viable in the game are simply playing it incorrectly by my count. You don't have to grind to have fun, no matter what. These people have the WoW mentality that they have to blitz to endgame as fast as possible, meaning that they don't value character development at all. If they want to rush through developing your character as fast as possible in order to PVP (like they do), I recommend that they play WoW or Team Fortress, since there's little point in really differentiating the two at that point.

#1: If you focus on crafting you will be crafting enchanted high-rank weapons and armor much more quickly than someone who doesn't focus on it. This is a totally viable way to play and I know that early when the EU server came out, within a few weeks someone was selling very high ranked enchanted equipment because he focused on crafting. I don't think he had PVP skills at all. By the way, there's an upcoming expansion that's purportedly going to give crafters some serious love.

#2: None of the game's systems shoe-horn you into doing anything. You can focus 100% archery and be completely viable. Certain roles are (obviously) better for certain situations, but there's so much different stuff you'll encounter especially if you PVP that you don't ever have to conform to one specific mold unless you want to.

It is the most sandbox you'll get right now outside of second life. I've played a lot of MMORPGs, and Darkfall allows the player tons of freedom. But, you'll have to try it. Everyone has a different perspective on the game. Go in with an open mind and lose the traditional MMORPG mentality and you'll love it.

Originally posted by Reklaw Think we are talking about general MMORPG's. 

Second Life is a very different beast, you sure can do allot in SL, and sure can see it more as a sandbox game, but not in reference with general MMORPG's, pure my opinion.  and as said before I don't see sandbox MMORPG but mainly MMORPG that may or may not hold sandbox feature's and again will mention Wurm Online which in my opinion comes closer to a general MMORPG but also comes the closest I know of being ALMOST a sandbox MMO.

He had said that there was no such thing as a pure sandbox. What's more sandbox than a "game" that's basically a big SDK? If Second Life isn't a pure sandbox, then I think we're a little confused about what "sandbox" means.

Originally posted by Darkholme

Originally posted by theguru22

Second Life.

There is a whole lot more than just sand in Second Life's "sandbox"...

I'm listening...

Originally posted by Darkholme

Originally posted by triprunner

Why isn't Fallen Earth exactly what I want out of an MMOG?!?!

... Because it isn't. Stop complaining, move on and find something that you do like.

And there is no such thing as a pure sandbox, if one did exist, noone would play it. I'm talking about the strictest definition of a sandbox, not the billion variations of a "Sandbox" that every different person comes up with to describe their perfect MMOG. My point being, forget that you ever heard the term before, it is a pointless semantics argument tat goes nowhere every time it's brought up...

Second Life.

Originally posted by Leethe

You could just play WAR or AoC or something. Why it's not a sandbox? I don't see how it being a sandbox would improve things. Sandbox isn't pixie dust that turns all games into WoW-killing epics.

LIES!

Say what you want about sandbox vs. themepark, but it's undeniable that themepark MMOs will never be better (in the games as art sense) than single player games. They'll never have better graphics, more compelling storylines, depth of character customization, combat etc. The only thing they can tout over single player games is that you can play co-op with your friends, and sometimes PvP. But in terms of PvP they're competing with games like TF2, L4D, etc, which are designed almost entirely around PvP. They'll never have as good PvP as deathmatch games (ie games like Heroes of Newerth and Savage).

So really, the only route I see a successful (and I don't mean monetarily) MMORPG taking is the sandbox route. The only way to make a compelling game shared by thousands of people is to let those people create a lot of the content. Of course, most people (as it's been pointed out) don't like creating content (which is fine) or are complete rectal-hats and they stray away from these types of games.

Games like Darkfall, Eve and potentially Fallen Earth (I haven't gotten to play it yet) are going for the true meaning of MMO gaming; to create your own personal character and interact with people on a massive scale.

It's kind of an odd idea to me that creating a generic, bland, (insert class here) and killing 10,000 boars with a few friends is better than creating a truly unique character, starting a guild, building a city, setting up events, going to war, capturing and losing territory, and creating custom items.

Most people just don't have the time for the latter, which is quite understandable, but don't say that that fact somehow makes the former a better game, or even just as good.

Originally posted by LumTheMad 

As I noted in the blog article I linked to from the (intentionally argumentative) assertion, skill-based systems tend towards player-created classes instead of developer-created classes, have the same balancing issues of class-based systems along with higher complexity and ease of players to make non-optimal/non-functional skill builds.

I still don't see how this applies to Darkfall. Perhaps to Eve, because you are more forced to focus on specific areas. Even so, I fervently disagree with calling it a "class-system" because, well, there is not a series of classes, player defined or otherwise. It's misleading and disingenuous to call games that may have a player base who create their own ideas of classes based on certain skillsets games that have "class-systems". This is a class-system the same way a stick you pick up off the ground is a baseball bat.

Balancing in games with no class system is done among skills individually; not even skill sets, let alone classes. Often, balancing has just as much to do with items (usually more often) than with skills. How you can pin this balancing on a class system is beyond me.

Add me to the list of people who take issue with Jennings saying that Darkfall failed because of bugs and the like. All bugs were very quickly addressed, and while balancing is still taking place in the game (it's difficult with so many factors such as availability of reagents and resources, damage mods, player skill, etc), it's the most intuitive, interactive, and complete PvP system available in an MMORPG. Also, Aventurine just recently released a major patch/expansion for free to all it's subscribers. How could the game be failing if they can afford to create 700 more Mb of content and distribute it for free?

For the majority of players who had actually followed the game before launch, Darkfall was a resounding success, completely fulfilling its promises. Most of those people are still playing today.

I also take issue with him saying that "every game has a class-system". Darkfall and Eve clearly don't. How can I take this guy seriously when he doesn't even know what a class-system is? A class system in MMORPGs is a system in which, upon creation of your character or at some specified point thereafter, you are forced down a certain path in terms of playstyle which cannot be broken from but by relinquishing all previously learned abilities of that path (respecing) or by creating a new character. This is not the case in Eve or in Darkfall. How could he not understand this?

Now you can choose to devote more time to developing your character towards a certain playstyle in Eve and Darkfall, but that does not make it a class system.

@OP: Don't know why you say Darkfall failed, it pretty much is exactly what you described aside from the separate servers.

BTW, Darkfall is doing very well. They just released a massive, free expansion since the only limitations are content limitations, and they're constantly adding content, the world is becoming larger, freer, and "more hardcore" everyday.

Video games are ABSOLUTELY the right place to analyze social stigmas. Major kudos to Bioware for making the game they wanted, and saying "fuck you" to playing it safe like all the other dry, copypaste RPG garbage. Games should be interesting. I would like to make the case for games as art, or social commentary, and games like Dragon Age: Origins allow me to do so, even if only in the slightest. We need more. Games can be art, they just typically aren't.

Darkfall.

... Or EVE, but Darkfall is much more accessible.

How can anyone possibly take this seriously when you put LOTRO as #1?

This has fanboi written all over it. Granted that it's a completely subjective criteria (top 10... to what?! Be a game?), it's still kind of... well... retarded.

I couldn't stand LOTRO. They copypastad WoW with Tolkein lore... great job turbine. That has to be the LEAST original thing to do ever. They stacked unoriginality on top of unoriginality...

There should be an award for that.

With a smidge of UI, chat, and minor content updates Darkfall fills all your requirements.

Right now the only thing to do is PvP... but already they have added player housing. It's looking more and more like an FPS version of SWG all the time.

EDIT: obviously I meant pre-CU SWG. Anything after I don't consider worth mentioning.

While I hate to be negative about this, I have to say that this is a great idea in the immediate fantasies of a devs head, and a terrible idea overall.

Such a game will rely either on consistent and extensive updates/expansions (cuz old material gets old quickly), or user generated content. If it is well funded and constantly updated, ok... but why not just watch cartoons/stand-up comedy? Isn't that more or less what you're doing? What will make the experience unique from other media?

On the user generated content... people are shit, and have miserable senses of humor. This is why professional comedy writers have jobs. Also, given the freedom that this would require, there will be at least one ass who will ruin the game for everyone by creating penis-monsters/litering the world with graphity of racial slurs and nudity.

Title of said game: Virtual Internet Online

You now train skills at 200% (I think, might be 300%) until 1.6 million SP is attained in order to let you specialize your stats sepparately from your skills.

Last time I played, it had no crafting system (and by that I mean the system wasn't worth doing/mentioning) and the economy was fubar. I've heard they've fixed quite a bit with it though.

By the way OP... that screenshot looks HORRIBLE compared to an AoC screen. Just thought you should know.