Originally posted by DevilXaphan

LOL.........the basic absence of any 3d movement in a space MMO is rediculous as any good space RTS game has this.

I forsee not a lot of people playing this.

An RPG is not an RTS.

Would STO be better off as an MMORTS or an RPG/RTS hybrid? Probably, but games are made so they appeal to the widest audience possible. Which is why WoW doesn't have any real RTS elements.

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

 

2. Progression is the name of the game for RPGs. You could have an interesting game still, with progression being purely non-gear, but gear is such a simple (and fairly logical: get a magic sword, become stronger) way of making progression take on different forms that you'd have to have something pretty compelling to not want gear progression.

For instance, a game where each character finds their own self-aware sentient weapon which has its own progression and talent tree sort of system. Such a game could probably be interesting enough to forgo the standard gear system.

WOW is hardly "unfair" to anyone who didn't start playing when the game first came out. Except for PVP, but if you want fair PVP you do what I do: play other genres which do competitive PVP better (FPS, RTS, Fighting, etc) But for PVE, someone who bought WOW for the first time today would have just as enjoyable an experience as anyone and I doubt they'd care too much about level 80 characters having insane gear, because they're in the newbie zones enjoying that experience (and if they're not enjoying it, it's not because of gear issues.)

3. Making everything BOE would utterly destroy any semblance of item economy. Suddenly nobody would run anything but the best instances, since everything else can be bought cheaply on the auction house because a few farmers saturate the market with items.

It would be an absolutely terrible change to any WOW-like MMORPG.

4. I totally agree. A game's gameplay is 95% of the fun, and games without fun gameplay don't last long for me. Item progression is there to make a solid game even more fun and interesting; it doesn't make the game itself.

2. Removing BoP wouldn't remove progression, it simply allows for a different type of progression, one that is accessible by all players. Not everyone has the time or desire to constantly raid in the hopes of getting what they need. And if you don't think WoW is unfair to new players, try starting a new character right now and don't tell anyone who you are. If you're an average gamer, I guarantee you'll never be able to get into a high end raid or compete in PvP. BTW, I don't play WoW for these very reasons, as well as the simple fact that PvE in WoW is utterly boring for me.

3. This is a problem with how the economy is run, not with BoE or anything else. Do we have BoE items in real life? No.

4. If a game is worth playing you could remove looted items completely and it wouldn't matter.

I really don't see why this is such a big issue. If everyone did group all the time and got all the best rewards, everyone would end up with the same gear anyway. So much for feeling special.

Originally posted by mutombo55

Exactly WHAT is your solution? How does Gear Decay solve your above "requirement" any better than BoP?

Hmmm, let me see. So a fancy raid item isnt BoP/BoE but it has Gear Decay. Right?  So "group players" can thus sell their raid loots to "solo's". Explain to me how that makes the group rewards "unique and appropriate"? Because it seems to me that any solo with enough time to grind gold can now acquire any items a groupey would normally have access to. Thats breaking your first requirement is it not?

Also, you mention BoP causes frustration. What frustration?

You then go on about no BoP, and Skill based MMOs, would equal more MMOs worth playing. Care to elaborate? And isnt this a thread about Group vs Solo play?

Oh, and if you do move from a Gear based to Skill based MMO, exactly what does that solve for Group vs Solo play. At this point perhaps you should define the exact problem your solving. As your current post just seems to be more of a generalised rant against BoP/Gear based games.

Lastly, if the rewards for Grouping are not item based or gear dependance is greatly reduced in the game, than the use of BoP or Item Decay would be something of a moot point with respect to solving the group vs solo issue. Because items wouldnt be the motivating factor to begin with, so who would really care....

 

1. I never said or even insinuated that gear decay would solve any issue related to BoP.

2. Players that acquire group rewards will get them quicker and have them sooner than anyone else. Generally, I dislike gear based games. They reward people by making them stronger, which in turn makes it easier to gain more rewards. This is unfair to anyone that didn't start playing the game when it first came out (especially where PvP is concerned).

3. Have you ever gotten an epic item you couldn't freaking use?!?!? BoP can kiss my butt.

4. Group play is fun because of class dynamics. It's game play that makes a game worth playing, not the gear you have.

5. Gear does not have to be the only way you can reward people for grouping. Think outside the box.

I've been thinking a lot about this issue lately. It basically comes down to the rewards that people get from grouping. Grouping should be required for difficult tasks and the rewards should be unique and appropriate. The problem lies within how most games treat such rewards.

Yes, I'm talking about the dreaded Bind on Pickup. I've always disliked gear based games, but any game that employs the dreaded BoP system holds a special place of loathing in my heart. I can live with gear decay and even 'bind on equip', but BoP is really what causes all the frustration.

I think every MMO would be better off if they didn't use BoP or BoE. Better yet, if games were less gear focused and more skill / ability focused, I think there would be a lot more MMOs worth playing.

Of course, that would throw a monkey wrench into most game developers business models, so they'd have to find some other way of getting people to do the same things over and over and over again. Maybe even *gasp*, dare I say, add more content.
 

PvP is the main reason I play online games. I won't touch an MMO that doesn't have it. After that, I'd say that immersion is a big factor for me. Ambiance, realism, npc interaction, etc... all have to feel right. Also, character customization is a huge factor (and I'm not just talking about looks).

Things I absolutely hate are grinding and gear based, cookie-cutter game mechanics. I can pretty much work around anything else.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Your reasoning here is completely flawed. What do you mean by "couldn't get better gear"? Was there some magical little gnome-orc sitting there straight-arming you saying, "No gear for you!" like the soup nazi? Seriously I don't get people like you.

I don't get what you mean by 'access'. You want to be able to solo everything and get everything, that I get. What I don't get is why you want to come to a genre that says, MASSIVELY MULTI-PLAYER before anything else. There are PLENTY of single-player RPG games out there, go play them. I have friends I play with, we play MMO's because they offer the ability for us to do stuff together that offers us a challenge as a group. Do you soloers just not have any friends? I'm not asking to be mean, it's a completely legitimate question.

I play MMO's to have fun with friends and socialize with people I wouldn't otherwise meet. I've talked with people from Japan, Scotland, Israel, China, Russia....list goes on really and become what more or less could be defined as friends with them. I've even met my Scottish friend irl when he's come to the states on vacation a few times. I would never have been able to meet and talk with all these different people any other way. I've made friends through games and later found that they live within ten minutes of me, adding to my RL circle of friends.

So I play MMO's for - PvP, other group content, socializing with people I would otherwise have NEVER met and exploring. What do you solo people play for? I'm not saying you have to make friends the way I have, but if you aren't even making in-game connections then what are you doing? Why would you even bother having group content if you could just solo everything and get the same rewards.

And stop with the 'we aren't asking for equal rewards' bs, because you are. If you got lesser rewards then people with better gear would still be chosen over you, thereby "blocking" you from getting better gear. Or nobody would bother grouping because there wouldn't be any point when you can just solo through everything. There is a MASSIVE difference in view point here though.

My viewpoint: I have friends, we play these games because they -OFFER- group content that is fun for us.

Soloer viewpoint: I don't have friends and don't want the MAN -FORCING- me to find some to group with.

That's how I honestly see the two camps, by and large. I don't see it as "forced" group content. I see it as, "content my buddies and I can enjoy together".

I'm guessing you don't play many MMOs. Let's just use WoW as an example here, since most of us have played it. If you start out with a new character, you can solo him up to level 80 without much trouble. When you get to that point, you'll be decked out in greens and some blues (and maybe 1 or 2 crappy purples). Then, you go ask if you can do a high level raid. You'll be asked what kind of gear you have, at which point you'll be laughed at and probably put on someones ignore list.

So, yes, there is a little gnome/orc sitting there straight-arming you saying, "No gear for you!" like the soup nazi. That is the very problem I've been trying to address. Group based rewards are fine, but not when you can't get into a group to get what you need. I don't play MMOs so I can solo the whole game. I like playing in groups, it's just that groups don't like playing with me.

And no, this isn't a problem for every MMO. If you start out early in a game and get into a good guild, you'll probably never have any issues.

So let me be perfectly clear - I don't have a problem with people being rewarded for doing a great job in group. I have a problem with people being rewarded for having been rewarded. I don't want to be rewarded with something epic for doing a mundane task. I just want the option of doing an epic task without having to be in a group.

I completely understand that people want MMOs to focus around group based activities. The problem is why people are grouping in the first place. Group content should be fun, challenging and rewarding. But it should not reward you with something you need to go on to the next challenge.

Capiche?

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Why should you get the same rewards I do? Finding a group isn't an issue for me, but I still have to coordinate with other people while you don't. We're spending equal time, but NOT EQUAL EFFORT. Why should you get the same rewards?

Answer that question and you have yourself a valid arguement. You cannot REASONABLY answer that question and still have a leg to stand on, so I'm going to consider this thread over.

I think people are missing the point here. It's not about equal reward it's about access. One of the biggest issues I had with WoW was not being able to get good gear, which then prevented me from (you guessed it) getting better gear.

It's also important to point out that some classes basically do the same thing in a group as they do in solo play. How would you suggest we reward such classes? Deny them access to good gear? Reward them just for being there?

To be honest, issues just like these are exactly why I quit retail and started playing on private servers. I had 100x more fun PvPing on private servers than I ever had on retail. But that's just me...

Edit - I don't know, maybe it's just people's retarded sense of values, but... It seems like people want to be rewarded with something unique because they felt they did something other people can't do (or aren't willing to do). In the real world, if you earn $100, you earned $100; the means are completely irrelevant (so long as they're legal). I dunno, I guess all the kiddies are still looking to earn that gold star...

Originally posted by x_rast_x 

OP wants to feel superior to everyone without doing anything to prove that he is, in fact, actually superior to everyone else.  My guess is this applies to his RL and well as MMOs.

How does killing things in a group make you superior to anyone else? Solo play can actually be much harder than group play, depending on your class and build. So why should group rewards be better than solo rewards?

The answer is simple: Group rewards take longer to achieve and therefore the developers make more money. Also, see my previous post.

Originally posted by fansede

What if your passion for MMOs could be channeled productively? You could get a job as a game tester, write (and maybe sell) game guides,  actually make money in games like Project Entropia, SoE Exchange and similar games.

Just saying if you are passionate about MMO gameplay , you may find something useful.

This is something I considered myself. I eventually realized that there were underlying reasons as to why I played games so much. I also came to the conclusion that, despite the fact I'd be doing work that I loved, I wouldn't be able to stop playing long enough to get any real work done.

I can understand why the OP is angry. I've played with many guilds in many MMOs and a great deal of them were focused mainly on gearing the officers. The problem stems from gear based games where the people with better gear are rewarded over those with lesser gear. Social grace then takes a back seat to people with 'epic gears', so what you end up with is a guild that's run by jerks with good gear and they get to dictate who gets what.

Not all guilds are like this, but I'm sure the OP just hasn't had the fortune of playing with any nice guilds.

If you're really trying to break your addiction, you're going to have to stop playing games altogether (at least for a long while). Then you can get your life in order.

I suggest deleting all your characters and accounts, then uninstall your games and destroy any hard copies. If you can't do that, you'll never be able to stop without some kind of outside intervention.

Edit - Weening yourself doesn't really work, so if you've considered that option, don't bother.

Originally posted by crunchyblack

too many people demand too exact a match to what they want, and are unable to enjoy even a close match in a game.  then anything minor is the straw that breaks the camels back...a bad customer support incident, some unruly players bothering you, or too much fustration and....tada a troll who will forever hate that game and the company who made it.

I think people get sick of playing something they're hoping will get better never does. WoW was that way for me, I kept hoping that PvP would get balanced or that raids would be more accessible. Nothing changed and the game became boring and pointless. Why? Because Blizzard isn't interesting in 'fixing' something that's already making them huge amounts of money.

Every MMO I've played has ended up frustrating me in the end, primarily because the 'end' of the game just winds up being horribly boring and/or unbalanced. I can't say I've never had fun playing MMOs, just that they ultimately fail to deliver any lasting content (which is actually a testament to monotonous game play). Eventually, I just stop playing out of frustration and 'hate' the company for making a game that left such a bad taste in my mouth.

Originally posted by Azzthuras

Atlantica Online has the most ballenced classes ever.

Did you even play this game? PvP is horribly unbalanced, forcing you to play with very specific build types and items. The only reason your main characters class type wasn't a huge issue is because you have 8 other mercs to balance things out with. Heck, even that doesn't prevent main classes like the cannoneer from being almost completely worthless.

Originally posted by vidiotking

Maybe i'll learn something. Do something a lil' bit out of my comfort zone.......

This pve carebear is going for it!

Just bear in mind that it's only a game. If you take things too seriously you'll rob yourself of any chance at having fun.

Justification.

It's just human nature. They all want to prove that their choices (even if it is just the type of game they play) are the best choices. Most people have egos the size of Texas, you aren't going deflate them easily. If you do manage to find any real flaws in their decisions, you'll be reciprocated with a hissy tantrum and a crude attempt to devalue anything you've said.

It's best if you just ignore such people and simply state your own opinions about the things you like. I think we can figure out who the trolls are.

Originally posted by jonrd463

It's a mentality that screams "I WANT IT ALL!! MINE MINE MINE!!!" A growing trend of people seem to think that they are entitled to everything all the time, no exception. When they're denied something because conditions haven't been met, they scream "NO FAIR!" or my favorite, "THAT'S RASCIST!!" (why do the dumbest of the bunch always add that extra S before the C?).

Try to reason with them and say "You can't have that epic sword of asskicking because it's a quest reward for a group quest." and the butthurt commences. I solo 99% of the time, so you'd think I'd agree with the whiners. I don't. I know that as long as I'm going it alone, there is content that I will not be able to experience... and I'm cool with that.

The problem with all of this is that the best gear can only be achieved through group raids. Then, even if you did manage to get in a raid and succeed, the odds you'd actually get something you wanted was tiny. It's just a horrible way to get people to play longer, it's not part of some ridiculous 'group reward' system.

You should be able to achieve great rewards without a group. Group play should reward people with things like higher xp gains, less down time, more intense fights (group based skills, bad-ass bosses, etc...) and perhaps things like fame or faction gain. People should want to group because it's fun, not forced.

Originally posted by Dewm
 

well he did post this back in 2003

WTH???

Did Brif just give the archives a colonoscopy?

I want to be as awesome as Chuck Norris.

....did it work?

No, no, no. WoW must be beaten, then killed, preferably with a wooden stake.

Seriously though, why wouldn't you want to play something better than WoW?

Hardcore is when you have or invoke real consequences for your actions in a game. For example, Diablo has a hardcore mode where, if you die, your toon got deleted. So, if I punched myself in the sac every time I died, I could be considered 'hardcore' (and perhaps a bit crazy).