Originally posted by NinjaNerf

When I played Anarchy many years ago everybody in the game asked what a nano is. Then somebody would say it was like magic but then the others would ask where were the staffs and wands to enable the nano magic?

That was one thing I never liked about AO.  If I'm playing a sci-fi game, I don't want magic.  I hate magic. I don't want to play anything that even smells vaguely like magic.  As you point out, the whole nano system was just a thinly disguised form of magic.  I'd like to see someone come up with an entirely non-fantasy sci-fi game that has nothing whatsoever to do with people casting "spells" at you, no matter what you call them.

I'd certainly play it.

Originally posted by pojung

A moment in the spotlight doesn't mean obsolete. Consider TF games that still run. Consider SC (albeit it had dev support the whole time) played still as a professional sport in Asia. We could go on and on here. A game was great for a time for a reason. That reason typically doesn't always pale with time.

There was a time when Pong was great.  I remember it, back in the early 70s and it was the only video game in town available to the general public at home.  However, if Pong was just coming out today, nobody would think it was great because that greatness was contingent on the times in which it was introduced.  The same is true of most things.  If you remove them from their historical context, they lose what made them shine at the time.

A lot of people look fondly back at games like UO and EQ, not because they've kept pace with modern games, but because they have an emotional attachment to them.  They remember the "good old days" when these games were the only choice most people had.  If you wanted to play an MMO, this was it.  Today, when there are hundreds of MMOs on the market, that's not the case.  If UO had never existed  before and came out today, it would not succeed in the market because that's not the kind of game that sells today.  We've moved beyond it and IMO that's a good thing.

Personally, I like to solo almost exclusively.  This is because I rarely have time to dedicate to being in a group.  Due to my schedule, I can usually only dedicate 20-30 minutes at a stretch to sitting in front of a game, then I have other things that need to be done.  Soloing, this is no problem.  Grouping, it is.  Secondly, I've found that the overwhelming majority of groups do not have my focus in mind, they want to rush around killing things for as much XP as they can as fast as they can.  I detest that kind of gameplay.  Since I'm paying the monthly fee to have fun, why should I play with people I'm not having fun with?

I'm not saying other people can't do whatever they want, I just choose not to.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Interesting

KEEPING UP WITH THE VIRTUAL WORLD is an intrinsic characteristic of MMORPGs that players have to deal with, SIMPLY BECAUSE THE WORLD DOESNT STOP FOR YOU.

 

Keeping up with the virtual world is only really a concern for powergamers in shallow level-based MMOs. You either keep pace with the group or you get 'left behind.'  Luckily, casual gamers and 'carebears' don't experience such capslock-inducing rage-posting anxiety because their concern is simply whether or not they themselves are having fun. They don't gauge their fun against the perceived fun of the guy next to them.

 

Exactly.  In fact, the whine-factor represents a failure in the hardcore mentality.  Those of us who are only playing the game to have fun and are not in a mindless competition against others just point and laugh at the hardcore losers who can't handle being behind anyone else.

At least it's entertaining for those of us with a healthy outlook.

Originally posted by uquipu

Back when EQ was new, the Internet community was mostly full of early adopters, eg, nerds and geeks. I remember seeing a study that only 5% of the population were female.

So we were all alike.

Today, everyone and their grandmas have broadband. There are 8 year olds with broadband connections in their bedrooms.

So the Internet community has changed.

Exactly, which is why people who are whining about how much they miss the "good old days" really annoy me.  Those days are gone and are never coming back.  Games like UO and EQ would never survive if they were made today, they simply do not appeal to a wide enough audience, whereas when they were made and their audience was the hardcore geeks, they had a moment in the spotlight.

People need to stop pretending it's 10 years ago and get with the program.

People who can't spell worth a damn. I don't mean those who speak another language and are doing their best in English, I mean people who think "u" is a word.

Obnoxious kids who think telling endless dirty jokes in public channels is funny.

Griefers, gankers, etc.  That's why I detest PvP and refuse to take part in it.

Special case: Those who think the game ought to give them success on a silver platter and endlessly whine about how hard it is and it ought to be easier.  Those people need to be dragged out into the street and beaten publically.

I just want to play with a bunch of nice people who are out to have a good time.  That's apparently too much to ask for most games.

Originally posted by cukimunga

Well if you think grouping doesn't deserve extra reward then why should solo content deserve the same reward as group? The reason why I think group content should deserve an extra reward is they are taking extra time to get a group together. They are having to work together to achieve a higher goal, there is more chance for them to mess up because there are more people.

It just doesn't make any sense for someone to solo something and get the same reward as a group,  it makes grouping pointless  if you can just go in and solo it. Why bother taking the extra time to get people if you can do it yourself.

Now I agree game should have solo content, like quests and stuff because I sometimes don't have the time to find a group but some things should force you to group up to get the better rewards.

Everyone should get the same reward for doing the same content.  If you kill a 1000xp dragon, you should get 1000xp no matter how many people you took along with you.  People ought to get rewarded for what they *DO* not for who they do it *WITH*.  The fact is, groups are just an excuse to do harder content and get more individual rewards anyhow.  There's nothing you get from being with a group that isn't intended to be used as an individual.  You don't get gear that can only be worn when you play with these particular people.  You don't get gold deposited into a group bank account.  Each player is out to better themselves individually by using the efforts of other people to make content they could not otherwise handle alone possible.  That's the reality of every group in every MMO I'm aware of.

The thing is, grouping is only pointless if the only thing you want is loot.  If all you're looking for is XP and gold and gear, then grouping will always be pointless because it's little more than one-upsmanship over others.  That kind of mindless, pointless competition is idiotic.  If you *ENJOY* grouping, then it's worth the extra time to get people together.  Do it because you like it, not because you're power-leveling to the top.  That's stupid.

Originally posted by spades07

 

Hm Everquest and the more modern FFXI had 500-600k subs, ignoring WoW(since we're talking about mmos being successful post-WoW) - referring to another more solo-emphasized mmo: LOTRO or Champions Online. How many subs do they get? Furthermore, how many people have bought Guild Wars? And lastly WoW's endgame is group-orientated so surely this completely annihilates your whole argument?

Anyway the reality is it all depends on a quality of a game how popular the subs are. And what the game has chosen to do. If you look at Warcraft 3 custom games- you cannot derive conclusions what will be the most popular because you have the teamwork-centric Dota to the Hero Arenas, and the solo rpgs. Likewise mmos, you have the EvE Onlines, you have the Aion's, you have the DnD Onlines. All opting for their own gameplay vision.

No, WoW's endgame is *RAID* oriented, not *GROUP* oriented, there is a huge difference.  Raiding and grouping are two entirely different animals, just because you're doing something with someone else doesn't mean you're grouping with them, the mechanics are entirely different.  So no, it doesn't hurt my argument one bit.

Secondly, every AAA game out there is looking for WoW-level subs.  They may not get them, but nobody goes into the design phase of a multi-million dollar MMO and says "let's shoot for only getting 200k subs!"  Investors would never give a developer money if they did that.  Smaller game houses who are funding their own games, sure, they can do anything they want, but the majority of developers aren't going to be satisfied with a small number of subs.

Originally posted by dhayes68

While there certainly is a truth to the 'the way i play is how everyone should play' dynamic, I think the reason people are vocal about it, is because devs are focusing mmo's to narrower audiences and the feeling/fear is 'if I don't argue for my style as loudly as I can, it just won't be made'.

Clearly the insanity regarding solo vs. group oriented games is coming from devs making games that are moving away from group oriented to solo oriented. And while ideally an MMO should be able to accomodate both styles, no one has figured out how to do it right yet in a quality game that everyone wants to play.

The problem is, they're not focusing them to narrower audiences, they're catering to the largest audience they currently have!  MMOs are all about making money, they are a business.  As such, they want to cater to the largest potential audience so they can potentially make the most money.  There are still some people out there living in a cave who think making MMOs is about providing a good gaming experience. That takes a back seat to making a profit whether they like it or not.

The reason devs are moving away from group-oriented games is because those just don't make as much money as solo-oriented games.  It's always going to come down to the money and the sooner groupers realize that, the better.  The only way to get group-oriented games is to demonstrate to devs that there are lots of groupers to provide a significant profit for their efforts.

Yet all we ever see are groupers whining on the forums.  Sorry guys, you're never going to get anywhere by whining.

Originally posted by protoroc

More soloer venom. You guys really hate that some people work together and achieve things you could never even attempt.  That's ok though, you can have your shit games mechanics that act 100% as a timesink and nothing else, I'll be playing real games like L4D2 or Borderlands having a blast in Coop.

More grouper delusion.  We don't give a damn what you do, just don't try to force *US* to do it too.  That means you don't deserve any extra rewards, group-only content, etc.  If you want to go take on higher-level content and make extra XP, go for it.  Have fun.  We don't care.  We'll get there in our own sweet time.  But of course, it's attitudes like this that make a lot of soloers think groupers are complete assholes.

And unfortunately, a lot of them are.

Originally posted by Scot

I can't fathom that either, its a bit like having a mobile phone and not wanting to make or take any calls. :)

Then I guess millions of kids who use their cell phones almost exclusively for texting are wrong.

Somehow, I doubt they care whether you can fathom it or not.

Originally posted by Mithios

It's not that we don't like soloers, but us "freaks" are not the ones trying to change the nature of MMORPGs and take away everyone elses reason for playing a "Multi" Massive Role P;aying Game.

Soloers didn't change the nature of MMOs, reality did.  When MMOs went mainstream, the overwhelming majority of players didn't have the time to be fanatics about the game.  If that's what you're expecting of MMOs today, you're living in the past.  In fact, soloing in MMOs isn't "taking away everyone else's reason for playing", more people play MMOs today than ever.

Originally posted by Goronian

If you had bad experience grouping, doesn't mean everyone did.

Different strokes, for different folks, I guess.

It has nothing to do with bad experience grouping, although I've had many, many more bad experiences than good ones.  I want to take my time, most groups I've been involved with want to run around like spastic chihuahuas, killing everything that moves as fast as possible so they can get more XP.  I couldn't care less.  I move methodically from room to room, kill what's there, loot corpses, open chests, search for hidden treasure, etc.  There are very few groups who respect that.

But again, as I said, MMOs are just not built for groups, they are built for people to use each other to get individual rewards.  Groups also tend to eliminate individuality.  Every fighter has to be exactly the same as every other fighter so they fit seamlessly into the trinity.  If you want to get into a group, you'd better have the expected complement of spells or armor or weapons and skills, otherwise they don't want you.  You can't be an individual, you have to be a stereotype.

No thanks.

Originally posted by Arcken

I dont think the solution is banishing soloing, I wont lie, Ive done plenty of it in my day. However I think the problem lies in the fact that if everyone solos, it will make grouping obsolete. I prefer to group, however with soloing becoming more and more common place, it takes away from the pool of players who you could potentially be grouping with.

You ought to only expect to group with people who actually want to group.  The potential pool of players is limited to those who want to do what you want to do, not the ones you want to force to do what you want to do.  If grouping were to ever cease to exist because nobody wanted to do it, that would be a matter of survival of the fittest.  It would die due to unpopularity and that unpopularity would have nothing whatsoever to do with soloing.

You want to group.  Fine, I get that.  Go ahead.  Find other likeminded individuals and group to your heart's content.  Can't find other likeminded individuals?  That ought to tell you something.  It's like real roleplayers.  How many of them are on MMOs?  Not many.  Sure you get people who play the game, typing with a strange accent like that's roleplaying, but it's simply not.  Why?  Because MMOs aren't built for real roleplaying, the ability to do it is ridiculously limited.  While I like roleplaying, I recognize that I won't be able to do it on an MMO and accept it.  My roleplaying activities take place elsewhere.

The idea that you somehow have a right to force others to do something you enjoy so that you'll have someone to play with is ridiculous. You can only play with people who choose to play the way you do.  If you cannot find those people, you're out of luck.  You're not entitled to get what you want, simply because you want it.  That's just reality.

Originally posted by Goronian

I understand the necessity of solo. Yes, it's unavoidable, since most people don't want to group with strangers. But why do people... Like it?

EDIT: I guess it needs a litle rephrasing at this point.
"Why do people, who prefer to play solo choose MMOs in the first place? What drives them in?"

I'll answer both questions, the second one first.  I choose MMOs because they take longer to "complete".  In a single-player game, I can finish the entire game in a matter of hours.  I just ran through Dead Space again, for example, and finished the entire thing in less than 11 hours.  After you do that... what's left?  Delete it and install another one?  With an MMO, even leveling as fast as you can, you're still looking at weeks and weeks (or months, depending on how often you play) before reaching the "end".  Once you learn the "rules" and the control scheme, you don't have to keep modifying your thinking, unlike having to relearn how things work in a single-player game as you switch once a week or so.  Secondly, having people to talk to, even if I don't want to play with them directly, is a lot of fun.  I've spent many, many hours just sitting around chatting on an MMO with friends, not even playing the game.  It does function very well as an online chatroom if you can find people you really want to talk to and since the chat functions are integral to the game itself, unlike using Twitter or an IM which interrupts the single-player game and probably gets you killed.  Third, even in the most rigidly controlled themepark game, you still have a lot more freedom than you do in most single-player games.  You can pick and choose what you do.  If you get frustrated doing one thing, you can do something else.

For your second question, do I like it?  Absolutely.  But the enjoyment comes more from the complete dislike I have of most groups in most MMOs.  It has nothing to do with grouping with strangers and everything to do with not wanting to group with self-involved assholes.  Groups in MMOs are not about success or failure of the group itself, but everyone wanting individual rewards for group efforts.  In other words, every person in a group is using the rest for their own interests.  You want XP, you group because you can get more XP faster that way.  You want gold, you group because there are bigger rewards that way.  You want better gear, you group because you can't get them any other way at your level.  That's all grouping is.  I have no interest in that.  Even worse, most people in a group would willingly throw you to the wolves if you get into trouble to save their own skin, there's no real teamwork, no sacrifice, no attachment to the team, it's only there to get you something, if it falls apart and dies, you can just go find another team.

No thanks.  I'm happier solo.

Originally posted by Arcken

At least Im not a 43 year old man who gets his rocks off picking fights on MMORPG.COM.

Id rather be an ass than a psycho.

I'm not picking fights, I'm correcting your clear and obvious misconceptions, something that lots of people have been doing, only to be continually met with your mindless ranting and immature namecalling.

But I guess we can't expect any better from you.  Your posting in this thread speaks for itself.  Lots of egotistical self-affirmation with a vast overestimation of your own importance and insulting anyone who dares not to bow down to your asinine opinions.  Can't say I'm surprised.

Originally posted by Malcanis

I refer you to the last sentence of my post, which is the important one. in eg: WoW, player interaction and freedom are significantly more circumscribed.

I couldn't care less about WoW, but there really isn't that much of a difference between themepark and sandbox, both control your actions, the control is just less visible in a sandbox game.  Invisible control is still control.

Originally posted by Ceridith

 

Here's a really simple, very defining difference between themepark and sandbox MMOS:

The game world of themepark MMOs exists to define what players do.

In sandbox MMOs, what players do defines the game world.

These are achieved in various ways, but the main point is that whether or not a character within a themepark MMO did anything, let alone existed, makes no difference. In a sandbox MMO, what a character does can leave a lasting impression on the game world.

But only in the large-scale.  What any particular individual does rarely ever has an impact on the game world regardless.  We can point out individual cases until"Leeroy Jenkins" comes home, but in general, you as a single player have no more impact on the game world in a sandbox game than you do in a themepark game.  It's only in extremely rare cases where an individual matters in either.  Not that big of a deal IMO.

Originally posted by Arcken

Why would a 43 year old man who doesnt play MMOs anymore be on this site just to start fights? Creepy.
 

Like I said, you're an ass.  Grow up.

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Arcken

I simply want back what you stole from us first.
 

We didn't steal anything, reality did.  Grouping had it's shot, it FAILED.  As games became more popular, the majority of players didn't want to group.  Therefore games started to cater more to their wishes because those are the people who are paying the bills.  If the MMO world went to catering to groupers, it would implode, there aren't enough groupers out there to keep the genre alive.

But you don't like that, you want to live in a fantasy world where you can have your way.  Because people obviously aren't going to CHOOSE to play your way, you want to either force it on them or bribe them.  Anything to get people to do what *YOU* want, then you whine that people stole something from you.  And you don't even see the hypocrisy.

 

Im not going to force it on anyone. read the rest of the thread hoss. You are missing the entire point in your overzealous attempt to stir up trouble.

I just did read the entire thread, all 27 pages of it.  And you keep talking about giving groupers extra rewards or making games more difficult so that more people will group.  THAT IS FORCE!

Or are you really that blind?