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All Posts by Cephus404

All Posts by Cephus404

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3479 posts found
There is no freedom of speech, especially when you're on someone else's forums.  They control what goes on and if you don't like it, you can leave.  You're free to speak your mind but nobody has to provide you a place to say it.
Geez, that was dumb.  Just decline invites and keep playing the game the way you want to play.
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by jpnz

Recently 2 of my friends got married and found out afterwards that their wives were ex-WoW players.

This started a series of events that ended up with 9 players in Karazhan cause most of us left during the BC/Wrath era and no one knew what the heck was going on. 

Where are my talents? Why is there a pokemon game in WoW? I was told there is farmville in WoW now. Where is it? F it! Lets pile into Kara for old times sake!

While it was a fun run of 9 people for '2-3 hours' something struck me. Not one of us actually managed to play for the full 2-3 hours.

Baby feeding / baby bath / wife aggro / Non-scheduled downtime at work etc all meant people had to take breaks while others went ahead. Now Kara is solo content so we didn't have any issues as we made our way through but what if it wasn't?

What if we were in 'current Raid content' in WoW? Would any one of us actually be able to play?

Now, back in the BC/Wrath days, most of us were single so we could. Now? Married + kids? I don't think so. And I don't think i'm alone in this. The large portion of people who played WoW on release were in their 20s. They grew up and are doing things that most people do when they grow up; have a child /  start a family.

This limitation for us means 'bite sized content' which starts the whole 'lack of grouping' in modern MMOs. If you only have 20mins consecutively, you are not going to be able to group with other people.

Here's the thing, I'm pretty sure we represent the largest portion of the MMO playerbase; middle class or higher, aged around 30-50. As someone from that playerbase, sorry but this 'group content' isn't more important than my baby's meal / baby's bath / Wife aggro / whatever.

MMO players grew up, deal with it. 

I'll tell you why group content doesn't work for me.  Pick and choose any of the following reasons:

  1. Limited time
  2. Asshat Douchebags
  3. Stupid players
  4. lack of group finders (spamming chat for groups is stupid)
  5. I am introverted by nature (as I suspect a great many gamers are too)
  6. planning and coordination needed to do detailed content like raids.
  7. Just downright dislike it, I've always preferred solo play more.  (for those who say "well duh play a single player RPG" then my answer is STFU, I enjoy the economy and immersion that a breathing living world brings.

I agree with a lot of that, although my  biggest reasons are #2 and #3.  Right now, I have no time whatsoever to play games of any kind but even if I did, I wouldn't want to group because I find the majority of players to be uneducated, ignorant asshats. I'm not particularly introverted, I'd like to group if people weren't shitheads and they actually wanted to play the same way I want to play, but everyone is rushing to endgame and I am not.

Nope, not remotely interested in VR.  I have real reality, I don't need virtual reality.
Originally posted by Nadia

you could solo in these mmos but it was much more effective to group

- Anarchy Online

- Asherons Call

- Dark Age of Camelot

- Final Fantasy XI

- Lineage

 

none of these games were solo quest driven except at the newbie levels

Funny, I largely soloed Anarchy Online all the way to 220.  There might have been times that I'd jump into a PUG, just for the heck of it but I could have soloed all the way up if I wanted to.

Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

MMOs are supposed to be virtual worlds to adventure in, and instead they have become bite size content games that just don't stack up to the classics. The genre needs to return to it's roots even if it means leaving people like you and I behind. Later when we retire and have the time again we can dive back into those awesome virtual worlds, but for now it's not fair of us to let these companies destroy the genre for our "convenience".

No, you WANT MMOs to be that, they aren't "supposed to be", you want them to be.  There is a difference.  Clearly, what you want them to be is not what they are.  You don't get to simply declare what the genre is because it's what you'd like the genre to be.

Originally posted by Instigator-Jones
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cephus404
SP games, which honestly, I'd much rather be playing, are too short.  You can blow through most of them in a couple of weeks.  Then what? Wait months for another good one to come out? 

 

First of all, there are SP games that last much longer (D3, Skyrim, Fallout, ....).

Secondly, even if one game last couple of weeks (say 6), you can only play fewer than 9 a year, on average. You are telling me there are less than 9 games you like coming out a year, in *all* genre?

Then what? Read a book? Binge watch a netflix series? There are tons of fun things to do.

 

Played those.  Now what?  And I don't want to play D3, I don't play any PvP games under any circumstances.  And yes, there just aren't that many *GOOD* games that come out.  Lots of games, most of them shit.  And I specifically limited it to video games.  There's lots of other things to do, but if I want to play a game, there isn't enough out there to do if you just eliminate MMOs.

D3 is a PVP only game? I suggest you look again.

Okay, PvP and/or group games.  It's really difficult to play solo, which is the only way I play.  So no, not interested in D3.

The last time I felt anything like that, it was with Anarchy Online, the second time I played.  I stuck around for a couple of years and enjoyed it, at least until the grind became obnoxious and the people started being asshats.  Then I left and never looked back.
Originally posted by Drunk-fu

That's fine, everyone should play what they prefer to.

And i can see this becoming a trend lately as well, though, most of the games are still having tab targeting system.

And i don't think this trend will last long.

As there is a lot of player like you, who dislikes action combat.

Then there are those, who just simply can't adapt to it.

So i don't think the future holds too many games for players like me, but rather for your type.

 

Action combat tends to be frustrating, especially when playing with a large group.  When you have PCs milling around and you have to click on an enemy, you spend a lot of time clicking on PCs instead.  It slows the combat down because you have to find something you can kill.  It is much easier, more efficient and frankly, less frustrating to just tab between targets.

Originally posted by Sengi

It think what you said about ESO can be said about every post-WoW themepark mmo. This storyline where everybody saves the world exists is pretty much all recent titles.

We were talking specifically about Elder Scrolls though so I'm going to limit myself to just that.  I do agree with you, but a lot of that is just being stolen wholesale from SP games that are much, much more successful than MMOs across the board.  Skyrim sold 3.5 million copies in the first 48 hours, MMOs would kill for anything remotely close to that. With total sales of over 20 million units to date, we shouldn't be surprised that the online version is trying to use all of the things that make the SP game successful.

Well it hasn't been tried so nobody can be sure, but I think there are good arguments that a sandbox that has more mass appeal (EQN) could be a hit.  The central selling point of the Elder Scrolls games always was that they are sandboxes. Thus everybody assumed that ESO would have the same sandboxy feel to it. I think that the game would have been more successful with more sandbox features. Well, and the payment model is another problem of couse. P2P apparently still works for WoW but not for newcomer titles.

EQN will never be able to compete with Skyrim in terms of sales.  While Elder Scrolls SP games have been relatively open-world sandboxes, those just are not the norm for MMOs.  I understand why they're not, Skyrim, for instance, would never work as a sandbox MMO.  Skyrim isn't really a pure sandbox anyhow, you still have to do the quests, you still have to follow the storyline, you can't just opt out of it all and go off and farm beets and leave all the Dragonborn stuff to someone else, that's not how the game is written.  You're not as much on rails as other SP games but you're still on rails, even if they aren't that visible.  With the cost of ESO, I'm sure Zenimax was hoping to bring over current MMO players to play their game instead of trying to convert SP players to the MMO model.  And honestly, with WoW losing tons of players, I don't think they're going to last as a primarily P2P game for much longer.  They already made it F2P up to level 20.

 

That is true. I don't think that these people really want a one-to-one recreation of those old titles. Those early games of course had their flaws. People sometimes put them on a pedestrial and forget that despite they good features they could be quite clunky.

There are a lot of people who say that's what they want, with the possible exception of graphics which I'm sure they want updated, although there are people out there who want a 2.5D format back too.  I don't get that, but to each their own.  You might as well be playing old arcade games where you're a blue dot running away from a red dot. Unfortunately, I think we've learned a lot from the old games and made vastly superior games thereafter.  Lots of people have rose-colored nostalgia glasses, they remember how great it was, back when these were the only games that there were and it was fun and new and exciting, they don't remember how much of a time-sink these games were, how frustrating they were, etc.  I think some people are just being stubborn, they want the good old days to come back and will simply refuse to admit just how bad they really were.

I assume that a modern sandbox would be just as polished as other recent games. What we need is a game that relates to UO and SWG like GW2 relates to classic Everquest.

But I really don't see those being good sellers.  Before GW2 came out, everyone was running around like it was the WoW killer, it was going to be the best game ever and would save the MMO world.  It wasn't.  As soon as it came out, lots of people hated it and moved on.  That's the MMO cycle, people carry future games around like the second coming and then when they come out, because they're not exactly like EQ or UO, they say they suck and start looking toward the next game coming down the pike.  That's happening right now with EQN and ArcheAge and Star Citizen and The Repopulation.  When they actually come out, when they go live for people to play, everyone will hate them and start looking at something coming out years down the road.  Dealing with the reality of actual games is much more difficult than dealing with the fantasy people have in their heads of upcoming games.

It seems to me the direction the mmo genre is going right now is not forward either. I see switching to a sandbox approach not as going backwards but as changing lanes.

I agree, it isn't moving forward, it is stagnant, but going backwards is never the answer and old-school fans don't want it to move forward, they want to go back and live in 1999.  That's gone and it's never coming back.  People need to figure that out and deal with it.  The MMO genre isn't going to change to a sandbox approach until it's proven that sandboxes make as much, if not more money than theme parks.  So far, the data doesn't support that.

Originally posted by Gorwe
What a sad thread.

Mod can we have it locked please?

You could just not read it.  Maybe you didn't think of that?

Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

Yet so many people want the genre to go BACKWARDS.  They want to remake games of the past, games that ultimately failed as more people came into the genre from the outside.  I agree that the genre has stagnated, but going back to how things used to be, things that changed for a reason because the majority of people playing the games didn't like them, seems rather silly.

Most  only failed if WoW is the only MMO you define as success. I'd say a failed MMO is one that shuts down after several years (Like Warhammer or Vanguard even though I did like Vanguard) A game that generates enough interest to keep its servers open for 10 or 15 years and make even a small profit isn't a failure.

I don't want people to slavishly copy games of the past. That would be as bad as making yet another WoW clone but developers need to mine these games for the genuinely good ideas they had rather than just write them off as failures. Otherwise it's just trying to invent the wheel over and over again.

 

 

Certainly the developers didn't agree with you or they wouldn't have introduced new mechanics aimed at attracting new players.  For all intents and purposes, all old games are gone because the mechanics they currently have in place are not the ones that people talk about as old school games.  That goes for EQ, UO, SWG (even though it's now gone), etc.  These games are not running in their original form on official servers.  In their original form, they all failed.

Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by delta9
Originally posted by Torgrim

We who have played MMOs for  10-15 years always have fond memories when we played in the "old" days and we are all looking for the next big thing that will take us back to that forgotten era, but when a new MMO comes along, we find faults in it.

 

 

I think because most new MMOs are nothing like the ones of old

The old ones failed for a reason, you know...

Failed at what ?

Failed to keep players, that's why they all changed and people complained about them.  The old-school method failed.

UO and EQ are still running, even if they changed it doesn't mean that they failed. They are both the games I played and enjoyed the most. They introduced the mass to the mmo genre and paved the way. Both games were really successfull.

Neither one is the same game that people speak lovingly about, both of them changed to attract more players because the majority of their players were leaving to play other games.  There are no old-school games still being run publically with unchanged old-school mechanics.  None.  Not a one.

Originally posted by Sengi

I don't think that this is the problem. Look at ESO for example. It is a very polished an well made game with a huge budget. It does well what it does. The problem is that the same stuff has been done a hundred times before, so all the effort was wasted.

Imagine all the afford and money had gone into a more sandboxy game that was true to the feel of the Elder Scrolls franchise. The money is there.

How do you know that?  Certainly there is plenty of money there for more SP Elder Scrolls games, every one that comes out is more successful than the one that came before.  For an MMO though?  I don't think so, in fact, I always thought ESO was a big mistake because the franchise isn't geared toward multiplayer.  I think it's absurd that MMOs try to make EVERYONE the hero.  That's what SP games do.  It just makes no sense in a multi-player game.

In reality, ESO is just a standard themepark game with "Elder Scrolls" slapped on it.  It isn't Elder Scrolls at all.

 

I think it is twisting words to call the people who demand innovation jaded. The mmo-genre has stagnated for the last decade and we only want it to live up to its potential. I'm not asking for a recreation of SWG but for a spiritual successor.

The mmo genre has gone trough a bottleneck with the advent of WoW. Maybe it is time look at old ideas again that haven't been tried for a very long time and to do something new with it.

I still have great hopes for EQN, although we need to wait and see what kind of game they are planning to release and if they are going to release anything at all.  

Yet so many people want the genre to go BACKWARDS.  They want to remake games of the past, games that ultimately failed as more people came into the genre from the outside.  I agree that the genre has stagnated, but going back to how things used to be, things that changed for a reason because the majority of people playing the games didn't like them, seems rather silly.

Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by delta9
Originally posted by Torgrim

We who have played MMOs for  10-15 years always have fond memories when we played in the "old" days and we are all looking for the next big thing that will take us back to that forgotten era, but when a new MMO comes along, we find faults in it.

 

 

I think because most new MMOs are nothing like the ones of old

The old ones failed for a reason, you know...

Failed at what ?

Failed to keep players, that's why they all changed and people complained about them.  The old-school method failed.

Originally posted by delta9
Originally posted by Torgrim

We who have played MMOs for  10-15 years always have fond memories when we played in the "old" days and we are all looking for the next big thing that will take us back to that forgotten era, but when a new MMO comes along, we find faults in it.

 

 

I think because most new MMOs are nothing like the ones of old

The old ones failed for a reason, you know...

Originally posted by PioneerStew 

However, I find it odd that mmo's have turned into single player games with lobby-based group options.  It just seems counter-intuitive to me.  Surely the entire point of mmo's is that you play with other people.  

That would be entirely fine if there were people worth playing with but for the most part, there just aren't.  The culture has changed between the time of UO and today.  People, especially people online where there is no direct responsibility for one's words and actions, have largely become assholes.  I do not want to play with such people.  I don't want to talk to them, I don't want to hear them, I don't want to see them.  I think most games out there are fun for what they are because they allow soloing. If you had to group in order to play, I'd never do it because there are so few mature, intelligent people playing.  It's a bunch of ridiculous dick-waving nonsense from people who can't spell.  No thanks, I pass.

Originally posted by Utinni
A lot of people still play the same MMO for years straight. I think the people that don't are the people who entered the genre when all of the solo games came in to play, meaning you didn't really enjoy MMOrpg's in the first place.

Except there are lots of us who were around in the early days and really didn't care for the old games.  Newer games are infinitely better.  I'd never go back to EQ or UO, especially if they were exactly like they used to be.  They used to suck.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cephus404
SP games, which honestly, I'd much rather be playing, are too short.  You can blow through most of them in a couple of weeks.  Then what? Wait months for another good one to come out? 

 

First of all, there are SP games that last much longer (D3, Skyrim, Fallout, ....).

Secondly, even if one game last couple of weeks (say 6), you can only play fewer than 9 a year, on average. You are telling me there are less than 9 games you like coming out a year, in *all* genre?

Then what? Read a book? Binge watch a netflix series? There are tons of fun things to do.

 

Played those.  Now what?  And I don't want to play D3, I don't play any PvP games under any circumstances.  And yes, there just aren't that many *GOOD* games that come out.  Lots of games, most of them shit.  And I specifically limited it to video games.  There's lots of other things to do, but if I want to play a game, there isn't enough out there to do if you just eliminate MMOs.

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by ryvendark
People will always tell you they know whats best... its only in hind site that they wish they took that advice.

Yeah, but if you havn't enjoyed a MMO for years and havn't stayed in any game released after Wow for more than a week you might consider if being here is a good use of your time....

Which is fine, to a certain degree, but what if MMOs are the only content-rich genre of games out there.  SP games, which honestly, I'd much rather be playing, are too short.  You can blow through most of them in a couple of weeks.  Then what? Wait months for another good one to come out?  The ONLY thing most MMOs have going for them is that there's a ton of stuff to do. They are time-wasters.  That's all.  They give you something to do while waiting for decent games to actually be released.

It's not a good use of my time but it is about the only choice I and many people have if we want to play video games.

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