All Posts by DragonOak

Originally posted by Ghazni

Obviously I'm not gonna read that whole link, but I skimmed through it and I don't see anything about online games.

 

Read the quote, then go to the link and use firefox and do a search, that is about the best I can do and not read the whole thing for you.

You said I could not prove what I say, yet I provide a case study of exactly what I say, yet it is still not good enough.  Really sad if you ask me

Originally posted by khartman2005

Originally posted by DragonOak

 

Originally posted by khartman2005

NO, what the other two told you was false as you saw by logging into your account. To answer you last question. Once you have either bought the digital download (you will get a cd key in your email I believe) or you account will automatically be upgraded as long as you bought the digital download while your logged in :). Or you can buy the retail boxed version and then just apply the key to your trial account to upgrade it.

 

Well I ordered a hard copy of the game, my wife on the other hand used my disks and did the 14 day trial.  After 5 days into the trial she went over set up her account, purchased the digital download for $14.99, input the digital key, and then got her first month of play (it is included in the price for the game) so in effect the game cost her nothing.

She still had to purchase the digital copy  to get a retail key though

You are right I misinterpreted the OP's question to mean if he had to buy a disk or do a digital download before going to a regular account. 

But since he already has the game installed, updated, and is playing, all he needs to do is buy the digital down load at the same price ($14.99) for a full month of service, put in his digital key to go to a regular account, and then play for free the next 30 days.

The two posts above mine are consistent in that they prove your point.

Too bad there is not a sanctuary where people can post with out flaming, intimidation, or just plane rudeness.

Originally posted by Ghazni

1. I agree that camping mobs for days does not mean challenge. I've never heard anyone who wanted to do this and it was one of EQ1's few, but large, downfalls.

2. Same as #1.

3. I disagree here. Your point about grouping sounds like a personal issue and I haven't seen the same view held all that widely, though it's hard to argue the point because neither of us have proof either way. What I can say is "Why are you playing an MMO if you aren't going to interact with other players?". One of the primary points of an mmorpg is working together with other players to accomplish tasks and take down enemies you couldn't do on your own. Soloing has generally not been incredibly popular unless a group is unavailable. If you play LOTRO as your primary mmo, then maybe that's the problem. When I found out I had been grouped with three 7-year olds in the same day, I quit. The groups were incredibly juvenile and there were a lot of rude players. I've heard WoW is the same way, though I didn't play long enough to know for sure.

4. Again, this sounds like personal disgruntlement. Many guilds raid with little to no drama. There are also no mmo games out there that make raiding a requirement to advance, though no one has ever explained to me why they don't want to raid.

5. Puzzle quests can go either way. Putting aside the fact that a walkthrough of nearly every mmo's quest can be found online....let's say you didn't have that resource somehow. Yes, some can be tedious, but I wouldn't be so hasty as to refer to all quests that take a little time to complete as "time-sinks". If every quest could be completed in 2 minutes or less, what since of accomplishment would there ever be? Good quests will involve the player in the game and present him with challenges, though there are undoubtedly time-sink quests out there.

 

I never said time sinks made a game challenging. I described what challenge was in my first post on page 3.

Counters to my points 1, 2, and 5 I value what you have to say.......but.......

Sigh ......Points 3 and 4 I disagree.......here we go again with the famous "it must be a personal issue" counter to my statements.  So below once again I am posting a study about social computing and the sociology and psychology behind the impact of computing and the individual. 

And I quote (yet again):  "In contrast, introverts were more likely to participate in synchronous forms of social technologies, such as online gaming, because they are more likely to use technology as a replacement for face-to-face interaction."

So this is not about it being a "personal" issue at all.  It is actually taking the evidence that is the basis of this and many current studies going on, and actually trying to define the problems in lay-mans terms.  One posters tries to "claim" the problem with grouping is solely based on people "not knowing' their class.  When I actually counter it with most people are "gun shy" so to speak and prefer not to group because of bad experiences.  It does not mean they do NOT want to group, it means they are VERY careful who the group with, since the games seem to be full of jerks that demand far more from others even beyond what that jerk can give themselves.

But anywho, here is the link:

wagglelabs.com/assets/2007/2/24/researchinsocialcomputing.pdf

And again, trying to point out that it is a personally issue only distracts from the evidence that it is a gaming phenomena.

Then again, if you are looking for a thinking game, maybe consider a nice Chess game with a friend or two.

It would allow for some nice casual face to face contact.

You could play without having to spend 6+ hours camping a rare spawn or looking for a group.

And it is a thinking game that has passed the test of time.

I think there is a lot of confusion about what challenging is.

Many MMO gamers have (and please readers do NOT take this the wrong way) have grown up and developed responsibilities.  They have time constraints because real life is more important than game time.  And what I personally find when most players talk challenging is the following:

1.  Rare Drops.......meaning one has to camp mobs for days to get the item they need, that is time consuming not challanging.

2.  Rare Mobs....camping my j-boots in EQ took me three days.  This entails camping a place holder mob that in the hopes will spawn a rare mob on the next turn, usually after hours and hours of killing the same mob, your eyes are dropping, drool is coming out of your mouth, and then the rare mob spawns, catches you off guard and kills you because your were droned into killing the same mob over and over and it became habit.  That is not challenge is it tedium.

3.  Grouping requirements.....as I stated before in another thread, many (not all) gamers are introverted (and if people would like I can post a study or two to show this is the case).  One of the greatest problems in MMO gaming is that a few players spoil it for everyone else.  There are a few that are controlling, whining, yelling, absolute power jockeys, that most introverted personality types have MUCH better self esteem than to put up with that.  They choose not to group because it tends to be consistant that one out of five or one out of six in the group tends to be a maniacal power sucking personality that forces everyone to do it his/her (rarely a true her) way and then blame everyone else for when it fails.  Grouping demands are too much of a constraint on time for the gamer that only has an hour to play and does not want to spend 50 minutes LFG.  So while grouping may be a challenge (I agree) it is not feasible because no one want to group with the obnoxious or take the time and waste it LFG.

4.  Raiding requirements...follows a similar pattern to grouping.  In my experience and I may be able to find a study or two to reaffirm my statements, RPG's (definitely) and many MMO's tend to be non conformist.  They tend to see beyond the narrow scope of Guild rules that say all loot drops goes to guild bank after guild leader and guild officers takes their hard earned shares.  Most of these gamers tend to want fair and balanced requirements and rewards, and most (not all) guilds can not sustain without the politics.  So the political debacle coupled with little time to dedicate for a guild raid complicates the challenge aspect of this.

5.  Puzzle quests....meaning many games now suffer from the ring, question mark, etc over the head of an npc that gives out a quest, rather than trying to find a quest and figure out what you have to do.  Again that was not necessarily challenge to figure out who the npc was and the dialogue you needed, it was a time sink.  And because most players got irritated at time sinks because REAL life responsibilities weighed in more many MMO's adapted.

I am sure there are more challenging vs time sinks aspects I could list but time constraints do not allow me today. 

Again I still believe that time sinks do NOT make a game challenging, they just manage to make me play longer so the MMO company can keep getting my monthly fee.  Any game (even EQ omgz!) has easy mode styles of play.  Where one can choose the safest, least consequential, and smoothest way to solo your way up the ladder, that is all about how you choose to play. 

Originally posted by khartman2005

NO, what the other two told you was false as you saw by logging into your account. To answer you last question. Once you have either bought the digital download (you will get a cd key in your email I believe) or you account will automatically be upgraded as long as you bought the digital download while your logged in :). Or you can buy the retail boxed version and then just apply the key to your trial account to upgrade it.

Well I ordered a hard copy of the game, my wife on the other hand used my disks and did the 14 day trial.  After 5 days into the trial she went over set up her account, purchased the digital download for $14.99, input the digital key, and then got her first month of play (it is included in the price for the game) so in effect the game cost her nothing.

Now may be a time to focus on grouping in the Great Barrows.  You have a good handle on the class abilities you play.....now is the time to meet new friends and develop some lasting friendships.  And this instance is one of the better ways to do it.

If that don't "float your boat" maybe try a little MPvP, or crafting, or playing the auction house and making gold, buy a house and decorate it, the list goes on but in the long run it is up to you to find what keeps your interest and then utilize it to the fullest.

Originally posted by openedge1

 

I never said it was a crime. I was simply pointing out how the "sales" speak was used.

 

No but you keep pointing out how Turbine uses "sales" speak on a continual basis.  I posted the article to point out that a company you utilize (it is obvious by your sig) uses "sales" speak frequently.

Everyone does it.

And my point was the SOE is the master of it.

And who says SOE is a train wreck...

Because they are NOT number 2 or number 3  in North America whichever you choose to pick.  Even Runescape beats any one of their games hands down.

they have been going strong for quite a few years.

Yup that is why they have been continually losing players....SWG revamp after revamp, Vanguard operating on a skeleton crew.....EQ revamp to copy WoW,,,,EQ2 many may be leaving for AoC to include even you......and the list goes on.

they may not make everone happy over the many mistakes they make

That is putting it very considerately, I think every other MMO learns from their mistakes (and they also learn from SOE mistakes), SOE on the other hand just keeps the mistakes trucking along.

...but, then no one is 100% satisfied...

That is always the crutch any poor corporation uses.  Have you seen the commercial, I think it is DirectTv (not sure), but it shows a board meeting and one board member says "the problem is our customers, we need better ones!"  Later he goes on to say the customers they "have now are horrible, they call in mad and complain all the time".  Every time I see that commercial I think of SOE and giggle.

well, except maybe Blizzards customers.

I come the closest I ever have to agreeing with you, and nearly fell out of my chair!  The reason is because customer service is very good, they used to add new content on a regular basis (until the last 9 months, I guess it was that 24.1 percent decrease in revenue), and their game works!!!!  SOE could learn a lot just by the simplest of things.

Maybe you shouldn't take offense to everything said about Turbine..

I didn't take offense.    I just countered you constant posting of how Turbine uses "sales" speak to show you they all do it.  And lets be fair and broaden the conversation to how it is common problem with MMO's rather than just a Turbine problem.

Originally posted by openedge1

 

Originally posted by Yeebo

 

Originally posted by openedge1

 

Originally posted by Yeebo

Runescape is free to play, sub optional.  Even with that they have managed to get more subs than anything but WoW.  Pretty impressive if you ask me.  Not that you could get me to play Runescape without pointing a gun at my head . . .

LoTRO is number two in terms of MMOs developed in North America, or conventional sub only MMOs.  However you want to look at it.  If you notice, in recent interviews they have started just saying "LoTRO is number two in North America."  For example:

 

tentonhammer.com/node/31782

I also enjoy lines like

 

"We have grown 40%...in landmass"

Almost like...hey we have grown...but, uh...only our world...not our subscriptions, sales or anything...

But, all that good ole sales speak is fun...look at AoC (lol...some fubars there...hehe)

I will be interested how LOTRO does by the end of the year with AoC, WAR, WoTLK, The Agency, Spellborn, Aion...whew!

2008 is turning into an interesting year for MMO's...and we may actually see if MMO's will still be developed after this round..if failures keep coming...then the market may dwindle down...just like the Video Card market...after the smoke of everyone developing a card...we now have two major manufacturers (not including Intel Wannabe Graphics)

Later

 

Dude, the entire point of that part of his presentation was the all of the content that they have added.   That's why he pointed out the 30% increase in landmass.  Or did you not notice that the first half of that presentation was a review of all the free expansions? 

Your gift for myopia astounds me.

As for the games coming out this year,  rampant speculation follows . . . .

I don't think AoC is going to affect LoTRO much.  The marketing focuses on "blood, bewbies, and PvP", which are all pretty much the exact opposite of what an average LoTRO fan is looking for.  The system requirements are also a bit insane.  I'm not sure what proportion of LoTRO players could migrate, even it they wanted to.  I know my PC couldn't handle it.   It may end up with more subs, but I'm honestly skeptical that it will.

On the other hand, I think WAR will end up dethroning LoTRO as the number two MMO in North America.  I would bet money on it.  I don't think it will be from folks migrating so much as WAR getting a lot more subs than LoTRO ever will.   LoTRO is essentially a niche product.  Middle Earth is a very restrained "low fantasy" setting.  A lot of folks don't "get it" and never will.  WAR, on the other hand,  looks to me like it could be the next true mass market MMO.   WoW but with an end game that doesn't bite 'nads?  I think there are a lot of folks looking for that.

But really that's all speculation.  At the very least, it's an interesting time to be in to MMOs.  I can hardly wait for the fall.  WAR, Moria, Wrath of the Lich King, the Agency (finally a console MMO..please don't suck! please don't suck!).   Hell, I'm even excited about Home. 

 

But...it is in how the information is used to explain the "growth" that it could be misleading...

 

"As the name implies, the welcome back weekend is an event where they reactivate old accounts and allow former players to return to the game and see how the game has grown and changed since they last played. The game has grown considerably, 30% in terms of geography since launch,"

Bring back players...show them how the game has grown...but, only in landmass....not in overall subscriptions per se...as we do not really know...

As another example of the "sales" speak...read the Gamasutra article with Jeffrey Steefel

Here

As Steefel says: "We launched back in April of 2007, and we've grown the game [in size of world]. Once we have the stuff that we just showed you, the game will have grown in size over 20 percent. We're already the number two Western-developed MMO that's subscription-based -- basically number two to WoW".

By using the way the sentence is structured, pure and simple, Steefel wants to give the impression that the game has "grown" NOT just in landmass...(note how the reporter had to add the [bracketed comment] in size of world)

The overall sentence structure speaks volumes of how Steefel wishes you to believe the game has grown in "population"...as the sentence goes on to mention the "We are #2" sales pitch...within that same sentence...

But...like you said...these numbers do not matter...because if DDO can still be ongoing at this time, then the company must not need much to run these games...and as such, their output is minimal to run the servers...because for a normal "small" "privately owned" company...having two failures like AC2 and DDO...would have been the end of most major developers...

Here is hoping that by the end of 2008 ...they retain the "paying" subscribers and not just the lifetimers...

Later

All the MMO companies try to pick their words carefully.  And when chosing those words they try to portray the company they work for in the most positive light possible.  So if we want to point out that Turbine uses descriptions of a 30 percent increase of the in game land mass lets also point out how other companies do it.  Because if it is a crime for Turbine it is also a crime for the others.

Below is a recent article from one of the biggest train wreck for a company in the MMO genre, and for those that have played their games try and pick out the "positive light" spin he tries to place on his train wreck for a company:  www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/mmo-week-soe-president-john-smedley

Originally posted by ::blank::

    So i started the 14 day trial two days ago. Since then i have made an elf hunter I played it until level 6. I enjoyed it a lot but i almost never stick with the first character i make, i always wonder what the other classes are like. So i started a Hobbit Guardian. I have him to level 9.
    Im on the BrandyWine server and im enjoying the game thus far..except that i must have a sign on my armor that says "I'll be your bitch" because all the quests in the shire are take this here and then take this here..gather these eggs...make sure the rooster doesnt see you..which i'm hating, but i can get over it.

    The thing im more worried about is that I don't see anyone...I feel as though im the only Hobbit around.. Is it the server im on?..is there just not many low levels?... I don't play mmos for a single player experience.

    Other than that im enjoying the game.

   

Go to the stable and take a ride to Bree, pick up some quests there and you move away from the tote and fetch quests.  Personally I think many of the quests where designed in the shire as more hobbit friendly, with their lifestyle, attitudes, and values enacted into the quest line.  Likewise the man area of Bree has quests are more aggressive in nature.

Also Bree seems to be the main congregrating place of most players, you will find much more activity there. 

Good luck and welcome.

Originally posted by Lonestryder

Good tidings, all.  After playing EQ/EQ2 for 3 years, and after a particularly frustrating evening of grouping with people who have no idea how to play their classes, I logged out, deleted all my characters (lvl 80 dirge - bard - and one 73 assassin) and cancelled my subscription.

So now I am looking for another MMO.

Here are some questions I have before downloading the trial and making a go at it.

Classes: I have always played a bard in RPGs and MMOs alike (EQ1, 2, Vanguard and Oblivion). Which class is most similar to that?  I'm more interested in subtle classes that add to the group and are challenging to master (but all the better for it).

Probably a minstrel that is based on the same concepts of the bard.  It is the story teller that boosts the moral of the troops.  A captain may fit too, kind of a jack of all trades.

Depth: I am looking for a game with depth.  Depth in gameplay, in class ability, in exploration, in tradeskilling, etc.

LoTRO is a linear game, it is based on a story that many know but very few understand.  If you enjoy playing a story line that game can provide much depth.  I would recommend reading the book as you play.  I enjoy finding even the smallest of notations in the book placed in Turbine's development of Middle Earth.

Diversity: I like diversity between the classes - enough said.

Lots of diversity, the classes tend to be very different.  In fact the classes are as different as any MMO I have played.  It is not your run of the mill mages, wizards, and warlocks kind of game.  Think of the lore and then watch how they incorporate the classes to be actual classes in the book.

Story and lore: I am a HUGE Tolkien fan and enjoyed reading the books.  The literature is some of my favority of all time.  That said, I also enjoy a game that has an overarching purpose, a story that drives the gameplay and gives meaning to my existence.

This is personally one of my favortie parts of the game.  Working the epic line of quests are the story, included animation clips and developed to make you feel as part of the story. 

Challenge: I like challenging gameplay.  I enjoy pitting myself against difficult encounters and a harsh environment. I am goal oriented and like to "work" for what I have/want.

I disagree with the opinions of most that do NOT play the game, the game play can be very challenge.  Although if you mean by challenged the hour upon hour camping of a single mob for that one drop, I have not found that in this game.  Or if you mean is it possible to solo by taking mobs 8 levels lower than you and playing the safe route?  Yes that can be done, but if you play the game as intended and fight mobs your own level it can be very challenging.  Not everyone likes to play games the safe way, but every game has that ability to fight mobs of no challenge but moderate experience WoW, EQ, and yes even LoTRO.  So in essence, any MMO depends on how you want to make it challenging.

Immersion: I want to be immersed.  I'm a professional by day, but a gamer by night.  I like to get lost in the MMO world, have fun with friends, and love grouping up to go against the challenging content to progress my character.

This is one of the highlights of the game in my personal opinion.  When I play a guardian, I feel like a tank.  When I played a warrior in WoW or EQ I felt like "meh", meat shield.  Start working on the great borrows at about 20 and see how much of a challenge it can be, fun also!

Class abilities: I like to play a class that is difficult to master.  I take pride in taking a difficult class and making it shine.  I tend to be a quick study, and enjoy taking the extra time to learn the little things that make a class shine - especially in groups.

Each class has abilities that rank and work if a prior ability is utilized.  As a minstrel I have ballads that are rank one two and three, each one being progressive and requiring the prior before use.  As a guarding I have offensive moves that require me to block or parry before I can use them.  IT means I have to be aware of every fight and watch what options are open to me.

Fun: This is subjective, of course.  I love to have fun (who doesn't?).  However, fun for me is getting involved in the game and the story and working through it with like-minded people.

This is another area that game shines for me.  It is a game, it is not about that hours and hours of grinding, mob camping, or item collecting.  It is about the story line.  It is a casual game for me and therefor it takes away the pressure of the other games I have played, I can log in, have fun, and call it a night.  It is what games are meant to be, at least for me and the many others that enjoy this game.

That pretty much covers it.  My hope is that this game can provide that for me, and that the good people on these boards will chime in with responses that will give me the real scoop.

Good luck and let everyone know what you think.  And Welcome.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this.  I look forward to reading the responses.

Lonestryder

Originally posted by arctarus

Hi all, i'm currently playing the 10 day buddy trail and i really enjoy the game and would like to sub to it. So my question is:  is there a way that  i can upgrade my trail to a sub base without buying the game or downloading the digital download? thank you

What Jarish said, and Welcome BTW. 

Originally posted by openedge1

 

Originally posted by Yeebo

Runescape is free to play, sub optional.  Even with that they have managed to get more subs than anything but WoW.  Pretty impressive if you ask me.  Not that you could get me to play Runescape without pointing a gun at my head . . .

LoTRO is number two in terms of MMOs developed in North America, or conventional sub only MMOs.  However you want to look at it.  If you notice, in recent interviews they have started just saying "LoTRO is number two in North America."  For example:

 

tentonhammer.com/node/31782

I also enjoy lines like

 

"We have grown 40%...in landmass"

Almost like...hey we have grown...but, uh...only our world...not our subscriptions, sales or anything...

But, all that good ole sales speak is fun...look at AoC (lol...some fubars there...hehe)

I will be interested how LOTRO does by the end of the year with AoC, WAR, WoTLK, The Agency, Spellborn, Aion...whew!

2008 is turning into an interesting year for MMO's...and we may actually see if MMO's will still be developed after this round..if failures keep coming...then the market may dwindle down...just like the Video Card market...after the smoke of everyone developing a card...we now have two major manufacturers (not including Intel Wannabe Graphics)

Later

 

Well if you guys want to say Runescape is a valid entry, even though we all know it does not generate the revenue of LoTRO most other MMO's.  If it did, it would have upgraded graphics by now.  But we may as well factor in every XBox live game, Windows live, and soon to be playstation multi-player games.  Then of course WoW would no longer be on top either, and the difference is XBox live has a P2P function also.

Originally posted by openedge1

 

Originally posted by jarish

Originally posted by openedge1

 

Originally posted by Huntress19

I do not know why but i think snorf is right. His posts are hard but fair against LOTRO. I really do not understand why you are so mad and try to make him look stupid. He does not like the game and it is his right to discuss on the forum. Many of his points are true too i think, but i still like the game - sad it is not more.

 

 

I agree that snorf has a lot of good points...no need for me to say much more..

 

But, excitement is not a major part of LOTRO and too many decisions were made that make the game fall flat...and this is felt by many...not just a select few..

The game may be #3 in the US (according to NPD...as the #2 moniker Turbine states does not hold anymore)...but, it is due to nothing else being out that is new or good (Vanguard ring a bell?)...

And now...here come the new games...and this will change the landscape dramatically...especially if AoC is an indication with their news of biggest launch (but definitely not most stable like LOTRO...lol)

Later

No Turbine states they are the #2 MMO DEVELOPED in the US. Runescape was developed in England. So they are still correct.

 

Ok...I see...

So "Developed" in USA makes them "NUMBER 2"

Thanks

_____________________________________

 

I think the point is that LoTRO still leads the pack second to WoW in the US, yet ahead of all the other MMO's out there to include EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, Lineage, etc, etc. in the US.  Runescape is not even a P2P is it?  It is not like it was 7 years ago when choice was limited to a handful of MMO's.  With choice comes competition and I personally find it impressive that since was are beginning to see a competitive market and that LoTRO holds the number 2 P2P position.

As far as WoW being number one I find it fascinating that Vivendi Revenue is down 24.1 percent from last year yet has 2 million more subscribers.  The apple cart is about to be upset.  It could also indicate a grand shift in the subscriber base is about to happen

 www.paidcontent.co.uk/entry/419-earnings-vivendi-q1-profits-fall-56-percent-but-beats-analysts-forecast/