Originally posted by gessekai332

F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

 

1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

 

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

Depends on what you mean by advantage. EXP potions and fluff are one thing. Weapons and armor quite another.  This IS a business after all, and the object is to make a profit on their investment. I have no problem what so ever with that.

In fact, if I find such a game to be entertaining, I make a point of using the cash shop to support it.

Path of Exile is an example of a game that does a good job of that. There are others as well. People who go into hysterics about "P2W" need to remember the old saying. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.  TANSTAAFL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain't_no_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch

I've been in the beta for a year now. The game does in fact have a great deal of potential, but they are still changing even the core dynamics (the patch on the 22nd changed a LOT of the systems and their relationships).  It remains to be seen how this new system works out.  I suspect the patch was rushed out on the 22nd because of PAX East (23-25).

Eventually, the game may turn out to be great, but at this point there is no telling when they are going to finalize things, and take the game to launch. Hopefully, that will happen before their funding runs out, or their investors pull the plug.

Damn straight I can live with out the raid nonsense.  That focus attracts those who rush to the end game (GO! GO! GO!), and then after rushing through what ever is available, start howling that there isn't any content... ^^

I can also do without the total focus on dps meters and gear score, that all too many of the raider types end up pushing.

Lets see if they stick to their no raid policy.

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by nariusseldon

How is it not fun?

Not only i can kill monsters and have fun, i may even get some money from the RMAH as a side bonus.

The amount of money is small so i doubt anyone would really play it like a job.

What? I know several people that play games in that way for money. I have one friend that was only able to keep his business open by selling plat in Eq for example, and another that makes several hundred a month selling stuff in Second Life. This market itself is atleast as old as UO, where selling "specials" on the internet became popular.
 

All Blizzard did was be one of the first to effectively monetize it.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I've never actually heard anyone say that farming was fun before. 

Do not confuse farm with grind. Farming is fun in much the same way that playing slot machines is fun. It hits a fair number of the same psychological buttons.

Good point.  Look at WoW's new scenarios system, as just one example.  If you use the random LFG system, you get a box with a piece of blue/purple gear and/or gold.  I've managed to upgrade my rogues gear, just by playing through the scenarios. It drops weapons, armor and rings and such. The best I've seen so far is i476, which is pretty good for a non raider.

Couple that with valor points, and upgrading is much more effective.

Originally posted by Luckshmi

I don't know how to put this but there's  something eerie here on MMORPG..

Pardon my newbness, but I registered on this site (and some other game sites) to have well.. ugh.. conversation about the games I (and you) play. But the threads here are quite different to what I normally encounter.. I might get a ban hammer with this thread but.. ugh.. This is the Pub right? *kanpai*

 

Currently playing: Dragon Saga and Grand  Chase

Yes if you'd recommend me anime-ish GFX I will gdanmnmn take it.

/asian here.

Eerie in what sense?

Originally posted by garrett

Originally posted by o2jpl

I was unable to find the answer to my question, thus here it goes.

Will crafted items especially equipables have a variable value depending on its quality and will that value deterioriate and be possibly repairable to the point of destruction?

In other words will it be similar to what swg had going for its economy where crafters were always in demand instead of having the same armor piece being traded over and over and over again.

This is a great question, it was not covered in the presentation...but PAX is in one day....I'll be asking this one for sure.

Gear decay has some serious implications.  While crafters obviously love it (talk about vested interest... ^^) it can lead to an even worse gear grind than is typical in these games.  You see that great epic sword, you just received as a dungeon drop, its going to wear out, and have to be replaced. So will all of your gear.  Welcome to gear treadmill 3.0... You not only have to get gear, but at end game, keep getting new gear, over and over and over... ^^

Originally posted by aranha
Tabula Rasa was a trainwreck upon release. Lots of potential but a very poor execution. NCsoft only pushed very high quality games back then and TR was a disaster for their reputation.

I have no idea if Garriot messed up or NCsoft pushed his studio to the edge but judging on the very poor product he presented i wouldnt want that as a high quality publisher.

Thanks for making my morning... I was laughing so hard, that I had to wait before I could respond... ^^  NCsoft is a "high quality publisher"???

You do realize that they've axed four or five western games at this point?  I seriously doubt that a "high quality publisher" would have made nearly that many mistakes, nor would they now have Nexon as a major investor... ^^

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-08/nexon-buys-685-million-stake-in-ncsoft-becomes-biggest-holder.html

Tabula Rasa was well before its time, and also pushed out way too soon.  But even with that, I found some aspects of it quite enjoyable.  If not for NCsofts political antics (which eventually cost them $32 million), and RG's focus on his trip to space (thus spliting his focus), it might well have turned out differently.

I played it from launch, until the last day.  In that time, the Dev's made many improvements, and if they had been given more time, I've little doubt it would have found a stable, loyal player base.  But life is filled with missed opportunities.

A well done fan video, showing many of the reasons, many of us enjoyed the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JODmTeAplaM

Launch video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3uUMME4m9w

Originally posted by Volgore

I just stumbled upon this on PCGamer: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/19/richard-garriott-game-designers-suck/

I think for someone with a failed Tabula Rasa in his record and the need for a kickstarter for his new title, he is rolling up some heavy artillery there.

Have fun :)

 

You might wish to read the article, so that his statements are placed in context... ^^  He makes some very valid points about the typical back ground (or lack there of) of all too many designers.  Given the games that he has created, I'd tend to listen to him, even in light of what happened with Tabula Rasa.

I fault NCsoft *and* him for that failure.  NCsofts high level suits for playing political games (whose antics eventually ended up costing them $32 million)

Richard Garriott termination

Richard Garriott, lead developer of Tabula Rasa, sued NCsoft for US$47 million in damages concerning his termination from the company. Garriott asserted in his suit that he was forced out of the company and was made to sell his 400,000 shares in NCsoft's stock, losing him millions of dollars. In addition, he claimed that the company was guilty of fraud by forging his resignation announcement.^[16] On July 30, 2010, a jury in a Texas federal court awarded him US$28 million in damages. NCsoft appealed the ruling.^[17] Garriott again prevailed on appeal and NCsoft was required to pay an additional US$4 million, bringing the total damages awarded to Garriott to US$32 million.^[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCsoft#Richard_Garriott_termination

I also fault RG for his focus on his trip to space, rather than on his game.

Saying that most designers suck, is a bit stronger wording than I'd have used, but the essence remains the same.

Originally posted by Netspook

The "experimenting to find the right combinations" is just a load of worthless marketing mumbo jumbo. No one's gonna use tons of expensive mats to experiment, everyone will be looking up the combinations on fan sites / wikis.

Well, if no one is going to experiment, how does anyone get the information to post online?... ^^

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Greyface

Everything else aside, Richard Garriot is a special case for me.  Portalarium is the third time he's founded an indie game company.  The other two -- Origin and Destination -- were each sold to major publishers.  In both cases, he made out like a bandit financially.   It was the fans who lost out: beloved franchises were gutted for parts and innovative new titles were scrapped or pushed out as shovelware.  As much as I'd hate to see this happen again, it would be that much worse seeing it happen on the fans' dime.       

He is just scamming people with his old reputation.

But again, more power to him if he can get people to cough up money.

Given all of the enjoyment I've had from most of the Ultima series, and also Tabula Rasa (I really enjoyed aspects of the game), I have no problems giving this a shot.  If it doesn't work out, I'm only out a little money, which I can always get more of.

He is counting on it.

More power to him to get you to think that way.

You seem rather certain of that. Are you by chance a long distance telepath? ^^  Only time will tell this tale.  As I stated, given how much I've enjoyed some of his earlier work, taking a minimal risk on having another entertaining game to play, is more valuable to me, than the minimal money I've backed it with.

Unfortunately these days, many seem to know the price of everything, but the value of nothing.

This looks like quite a bit of fun.  I'm wondering if they will stick to this approach, when the raider types start howling that raid gear isn't the best available in the game.  In most games I seldom bother with crafting, as dungeon and raid gear is much superior.

Given that I burned out of raiding years back, that means I get by with what dungeon drops I can find, and purchase the rest on the AH.  If they actually mean to make crafting useful, I will have to check that out.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Greyface

Everything else aside, Richard Garriot is a special case for me.  Portalarium is the third time he's founded an indie game company.  The other two -- Origin and Destination -- were each sold to major publishers.  In both cases, he made out like a bandit financially.   It was the fans who lost out: beloved franchises were gutted for parts and innovative new titles were scrapped or pushed out as shovelware.  As much as I'd hate to see this happen again, it would be that much worse seeing it happen on the fans' dime.       

He is just scamming people with his old reputation.

But again, more power to him if he can get people to cough up money.

Given all of the enjoyment I've had from most of the Ultima series, and also Tabula Rasa (I really enjoyed aspects of the game), I have no problems giving this a shot.  If it doesn't work out, I'm only out a little money, which I can always get more of.

Originally posted by Primernova

Originally posted by Thane

you guys wanna die to my rogue again?

 

that's what vanilla was about. stop dreaming about something that never actually happened

 

Rogues have sucked since TBC, your point?

Rogues and DK's are quite good examples of classes that have been hammered in the endless quest for "balance".  DK's especially.  They started out as a "hero" anti caster class, and have been totally destroyed, because of the hysterical howling and foaming at the mouth, that resulted.

Originally posted by Aeolyn

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by KaosProphet

 

Does this imply you might find the idea more tolerable if it were some indy startup run out of a basement by a team of starving artistes than when it's being proposed by a guy who could, theoretically, buy out his own campaign with pocket change?

The whole idea of KS is not "tolerable" to me .. hence i wont spend a cent on rich had-beens who flew to space, and i won't spend a cent on starving idealist living in his mom's basement.

However, i have no objection if someone else does .. after all, they are risking THEIR money so i have a chance to play a game, no matter how low that chance is. I should say "thank you".

Bites tongue, hard.

Nah, I just laugh. ^^  As long as such types don't move to impose their ideologies on others, they are more than welcome to their opinions.   But I'd not be surprised, if such types get the various political scum involved. Just to "protect" people of course.

Kickstarter is an interesting idea, and only time will tell how it turns out.  Everyone should do their own research, and make their own choices.  I back projects that are of interest to me.  If it doesn't work out, I can always get more money.

Well... Some of the worst I've played have gone under (such as Eligium, and War of Angels)... But one of the worst thats still running would be Gates of Andaron.  

http://www.gatesofandaron.com/

If you really want the bottom of the barrel, you may be able to find it here.

http://thebigmmorpglist.com/

Originally posted by rikwes
Even if and when this bloke would produce the best game ever to grace a PC/console he wouldn't get a dime from me since the Tabula Rasa fiasco. He won the lawsuit he filed against NCsoft ( at the tune of 23 million US$) and instead of trying to accomodate all those players - for example by including the rights to the IP Tabula Rasa in the lawsuit  and rebooting/saving  it - he starts a new company to rip them off all over again. 

I played Tabula Rasa from the day it launched to the day it closed. I quite enjoyed aspects of the game.  But there is more than enough blame to go around to all parties. I fault NCsofts upper level suits for playing political games (their antics eventually ended up costing them $32 million).

Richard Garriott termination

Richard Garriott, lead developer of Tabula Rasa, sued NCsoft for US$47 million in damages concerning his termination from the company. Garriott asserted in his suit that he was forced out of the company and was made to sell his 400,000 shares in NCsoft's stock, losing him millions of dollars. In addition, he claimed that the company was guilty of fraud by forging his resignation announcement.^[16] On July 30, 2010, a jury in a Texas federal court awarded him US$28 million in damages. NCsoft appealed the ruling.^[17] Garriott again prevailed on appeal and NCsoft was required to pay an additional US$4 million, bringing the total damages awarded to Garriott to US$32 million.^[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCsoft#Richard_Garriott_termination

I also fault RG for his focus on his trip to space, rather than on his game.

If NCsoft had settled, I could see the IP rights to TR going to RG.  But adding them to the court case would have made it much more complicated.  I miss TR as well, it was a fun game. Unfortunately, these things happen, when dealing with these types of political/legal issues.

I'm quite looking forward to Shroud, and I hope it turns out to be an entertaining game.

Originally posted by tazarconan

I surely prefer vanilla wow from what its become nowdays. Combat mechanics and talent trees were leaving lots of space for players to improvise and have unique fight styles. Today with limited to none freedom on talent trees its quite certain that if u r x specc on x class vs x class and specc u must do x things to have chance to win.If u try to improvise u r cooked. Also combat back in vanilla was more unpredictable due to various sideeffects weapons chances to stun for x seconds ,talent picks etc etc ,really competitive battlegrounds, world pvp within the server,better community blah blah blah

These things cant be traded for all the pandas, wolverines and flying mounts  in the world.

Much of that choice was an illusion.  Due to design errors (omission/commission) there was only a limited number of effective builds for most people, in most classes.  Thus was born the FOTM cycle.  Once theorycrafting really got started, it became an arms race between the top players and the Dev's. That continues to this day.

Most of the rose colored glasses seems to concern the "joys" of ganking and griefing back during the first year to 18 months of the game.  Given Blizzards obsession with spread sheets and data mining, if the majority of players had taken part in that, and enjoyed it (rather than simply tolerating it)  I doubt they would have changed it.

As for the rest, it was the PvP crowds vocal minority howling about "OP" this, and "broken" that, which drives much of the FOTM cycle.  It goes like this. Player A is killed by class B.  Player A howls "Class B is OP!!! Nerf class B!!" After a certain  amount of howling, and foaming at the mouth, the Dev's nerf class B into the ground.

 Then class C, D, E... Then the next part of the cycle starts. The Dev's say, fewer people are playing class B, buff class B! Then player A gets killed by class B, "Class B is OP!!! Nerf class B!!"... This repeats FOREVER. 

In the eternal search for the illusion of "balance" large amounts of Dev time and talent are consumed.  Also in the process, in most games, the nerf/buff cycle annoys the hell out of the PvE side of the game, because changes for "balance" in PvP, end up hammering the fun factor in PvE.  This acts as a DOT effect, which eventually contributes to many players leaving the game.