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All Posts by Wraithone

All Posts by Wraithone

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Originally posted by Stratford
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Loke666

I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. If Ea makes a really good game they will get money for it no matter what model they use to charge it's customers.

WARs problem is not really that it have monthly fees, the problem is that the game is fun for 3 weeks but gets boring fast after that. Do you really think they would earn more money if they changed subsciption model on it? I don't think so.

EA needs to make better MMOs to earn more money, the model they uses for people to pay might give them a little more or less money but if the game suck they will still lose money.

No, what EA really needs are a few great game designers. Jeff Strain has just quited his job, hire in him to make a new game and the players will come, or someone similar. Buying Bioware was great for them because they did get a few really good game designers, a few more people like that and they could actually come to the top.

To earn money you need to make fun games. To make fun games you need good devs and let them make the games as they want them to be, not by having corporate people doing what they think will bring most money.

That is the key to success.


Exactly right.  Since thats rather obvious why doesn't it happen? One MAJOR reason sticks out. Doing that is a *risk*.

Risk is an integral part of the business world.  MMO companies have been trying to avoid it, and they fail.  Only the ones to actually step up to the plate and take that risk will even have a shot at succeeding.  And ALL F2P games are by definition risk-adverse.  Therefore, they are bound to fail, or at the very best create nothing better than mediocrity.  And being an adult who recognizes the precious nature of time, I refuse to waste it on mediocrity.


Hell, if you are concerned about wasting time, you should find another hobby other than MMO games. I quite agree that risk is not only part of business, but just about any human activity.  The cult of the risk adverse isn't limited to strictly America.  It has followers in just about all fields and countries. Far too many people do not understand risk management, and can not make a cost/benefit analysis for doing that management. Its all too directly personal to them.  That is how we end up with so many failures and the luke warm "successes" that we've seen.  Timid investors/shareholders who focus only on this *quarters* activity, are only one of the factors that drive that nasty feed back spiral.  Unless or until people start taking some risks, we will continue to see the same warmed over pap that is all too common these days.

Originally posted by Loke666

I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. If Ea makes a really good game they will get money for it no matter what model they use to charge it's customers.

WARs problem is not really that it have monthly fees, the problem is that the game is fun for 3 weeks but gets boring fast after that. Do you really think they would earn more money if they changed subsciption model on it? I don't think so.

EA needs to make better MMOs to earn more money, the model they uses for people to pay might give them a little more or less money but if the game suck they will still lose money.

No, what EA really needs are a few great game designers. Jeff Strain has just quited his job, hire in him to make a new game and the players will come, or someone similar. Buying Bioware was great for them because they did get a few really good game designers, a few more people like that and they could actually come to the top.

To earn money you need to make fun games. To make fun games you need good devs and let them make the games as they want them to be, not by having corporate people doing what they think will bring most money.

That is the key to success.


Exactly right.  Since thats rather obvious why doesn't it happen? One MAJOR reason sticks out. Doing that is a *risk*. Damn few suits are going to make the decision to authorize investing that type of money, over the time required to achieve it.  Shareholders/investors are VERY short sighted.  What have you done to "improve shareholder value" this *quarter* is ALL they care about.

Suits know this reality, and they aren't going to take the personal career risks required. So they stick to what has worked in the past. Without real understanding of why it worked, and how the target audience may have changed over time.  Which explains the base line reception many of these new games have received.  But since the suits can pass the blame on to the Dev's or the players, they don't have to take personal responsibility for it, and bottom line thats all they care about.  But this is creating a feed back loop that is damaging players perceptions of the industry itself.  Unless something is done to break that cycle, Bad Things(tm) could be on the horizon for the MMO industry.

Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by Frobner

No matter what you say about WOW or Blizzard - noone can take away the fact that they create quality GAMES.  Gaming has nothing to do with fancy graphics - long loading screens and boring side issues.  Its pure and simple.  Fun !



LOL graphics has EVERYTHING to do with quality,that is what brings the game to life.If it was just text based and mechanics with no graphics it would be dull and boring.

The quality part is a debate as cheap is not really considered to be quality imo anyhow.If you went to buy a coffee table,would cal la veneer top quality? or would the natural cherry wood grain finish be considered quality?again this leads back to visual.I hope i made the point clear enough.

No i am also fair i realize wow has lots of mechanics and lots of maps and lots of different battles and variety in classes.

The graphics were ONLY done to cater to their already fanbase and the ease of creating the game.This also is why they used the cheap game engine,they went for the cheap approach,the easiest way to get a game out.Nothing in the creation of wow was planned to make a solid game for the user,they went with what they knew from EQ and what they already had.

Ok now here is my other beef.The community,ok that is not Blizzard's fault,except when you cater to the warcraft crowd using the same graphics ,you ARE catering to kids.My biggest beef is in the way Blizzard has transpired over the years.Ok they made a cheap version of Eq fine,that is what they had to go with ,so they did their best.They figured to make up for the lack of game versus EQ,they would offer easier leveling and bigger rewards for doing the simplest quests.So in essence they were BRIBING their fanbase.I can see it, the kids need pampering.

Ok it does not end there.After years of making millions,it is about time Blizzard stepped up and delivered their game back to the customers who made them rich.Step up and re do the textures,other games have done it ,Blizzard most certainly could do it.

Why ?because looking at a tree with a terrible looking bark texture ruins the atmosphere for me.Why? because looking at rock and it looks like one big texture pasted  onto the side of one big brush ,loses everything for me,it just looks bad and fake.Personally i think Blizzard did not know they would be a success,this has come back to bite them.Their game engine is soooo cheap their hands are tied for turning the game into anything good looking.Their payroll and staff is SOoooo huge they can't afford to do anything for the game,that they cannot sell to it's customer.

In the end ,if i want to see a better designed WOW,i look to EQ2,and i have been there in both games.The ONLY way WOW could ever become a good QUALITY game is to redo it with a better game engine and better textures and proper lighting and use of shaders.As is i fails in almost every area of QUALITY.


Well... Having played EQ2, while its certainly pretty in places, I'll take WoW's armor and weapons over EQ2 any day of the week.  Not to mention that WoW will run on a much larger section of the installed hardware base than EQ2 will(epsecially when it launched). The animations in EQ2 seemed rather stiff(look at the flying griffin as an example).  I suspect you are using the word "quality" in a rather subjective fashion.  First and foremost WoW is *fun* to me. It also seems to be fun to many millions of other people around the world.  While there are a lot of Bnet battle kiddies in WoW, looking down ones nose at the WoW community(such as it is) is neither helpful, nor profitable... I doubt one would find a game company that wouldn't LOVE to have WoW's subscriber numbers.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter
Originally posted by Frobner

No matter what you say about WOW or Blizzard - noone can take away the fact that they create quality GAMES.  Gaming has nothing to do with fancy graphics - long loading screens and boring side issues.  Its pure and simple.  Fun !



I'd agree, but WoW isn't fun.


Perhaps not to you.  But I've been in since late beta, and while I get bored and wander off once in a while. Its a fun game all the way to level cap, and I keep going back once they add new content.

Originally posted by Kaocan
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by BloodDuality

If gold spammers an a few bots are Aions big problems I think they are still ahead of other mmos that have been released these past few years. Seems like these issues would be easy to fix, and I saw a post earlier showing a bunch of gold spamers getting baned. I will be waiting a while before I consider buyinh the game, but I think they will be able to get better.


Actually, you may not be aware of exactly how damaging gold sellers and bots can be to an MMORPG. Once the gold farmers and their bots take control of the in-game market, they will hike up the price of everything on the AH which will make buying gold mandatory, if a player wants to stay competitive. Kind of like the current situation in Lineage 2. Hey, another game by NCSoft...

When I played the Chinese version of Aion, bots were everywhere. They would run around in packs of 2-3 and kill steal everything in sight. It was almost impossible to do a kill X quest because the bots would kill steal the mobs. Especially with Aion's silly kill rights being awarded to the person or group who did the highest damage, which practically beg for griefing. Imagine attacking a mob and having a 3 bot group run up and kill it. They get the credit, you get absolutely nothing. Now rinse and repeat. That was pretty much my experience in Chinese Aion.

While I'm sure that, currently, it's not as bad in the US as it is in China or Korea, it's getting there.


Yes, gold farmers/spammers can cause a serious mess - L2 is a prime example of that no doubt. But Aion has a small advantage over L2 and that is there is no open world PvP amongst same faction players. They trashed L2 economy because you had no choice but buy the items you wanted from them, at their high prices, with their gold - not because they were in the game, but because they were allowed to control it all.

I played a bounty hunter in L2, and believe me when I say, the farmers controlled the drops in every grid block in the game. If you stepped into one of their farm grids you had better be ready to defend your choice to walk there. They would gang up and destroy you the second you picked your first mob to hit. Once they forced all the players away from farming their own drops it was just a matter of time before they controlled the entire economy.

As long as Aion doesn't allow them the chance to kill anyone who walks into their farm grids they can be relatively ignored. The only problem they cause with the economy then is not them as much as it is the buyers. The more people feed them RL cash for in-game kinah, the more the economy becomes unstable, but in the other direction usually. You flood the market with cash and everything becomes worthless trash except the very high end gear that soon becomes unreachable in price. This makes the 'competitive' people the only ones that have to buy kinah to stay in their tier.

Right now the problem is there are too many people who are trying to force end game that are willing to dish out $30 for extra kinah. If they would stop buying there wouldn't be a market for the farmers to sell in. We as players blame NCSoft for letting the problem be there, in reality it is us that is creating the mess from them. Stop feeding them, it really is that simple. Block them, ignore them, DON'T BUY FROM THEM, and they will go away.


Yes, the buyers ARE the key to the demand. Absent them there would be no demand for the sellers to make money off of. But the buyers aren't going away.  Not unless NCsoft makes it VERY risky to buy.  If buyers faced a perma ban on their accounts for buying, it would put a serious dent in the demand. NCsoft could go about this several ways. One of the nastier would be sting operations. That would make it so that buyers never know if they are dealing with sellers, or NCsoft agents who are making lists. Collect the lists over the week and then mass perma ban those on the list at the weeks end. Change the name/class of the NCsoft agents and get ready for the next week. 

They could also work to infiltrate the sellers groups. There are any number of counter seller operations they could run if they wished to. But those take money and skilled personnel, and I seriously doubt NCsoft wants to invest in what it would take to break the back of the sellers.  Talk is cheap. Effective action takes thought, planning, experienced/skilled personnel and thus money.  Look for more tough *talk* from NCsoft, and very little effective action in the end.

He makes some valid points, but the western/eastern demographic split is deeper than that.  Eastern gamers have been conditioned to accept/expect levels of ganking/griefing that would totally niche a game in the west.  Its seeped into their gaming culture to an extent that they don't even think about it.  That is just one of the major elements that leads eastern games to limited niche markets in the west.

Another is the perception(right or wrong) that all too many eastern games are shovel ware, thrown together with little real thought as to the implications of the various design elements.  Couple that with the all too often translation mistakes, and limited or non existent in game GM/support and the stereotype gets further ingrained.  Not to mention the growing perception that NCsoft doesn't really take its western developments as seriously as it does its eastern.  Look at the three games it has axed. All have been western games.  Given how time intensive these games are, if this trend continues many people will begin to question the wisdom of investing that time in a western version of NCsofts games.

Originally posted by Omrie

Think Dust 514 will be Xbox only?


Its possible. I hear that the PS3 is much more difficult to code for.  Its a powerful system, but with all of that power comes much higher complexity.

Originally posted by TalRasha
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Pharoin

Am i missing something or did people forget that there are gold farmers, power-levelers and people who u spam u about the services?


There will always be those to some extent. But Blizzard seems to have become rather effective in dealing with those.  From my experience the Asian games tend to have worse problems with those.  I'm not quite certain as to the reason.


I would hardly call that effective. Blizzards actions against gold spammers and bots have had a negative effect too. A rise in account theft.

Due to restrictions to trial accounts, it has become increasingly attractive for gold spammers/farmers to steal accounts. So they can spam with high level characters, create new characters that are completely free to use trade channel and whisper, rob the account clean of gold instead of farming, using the gathering skills of high level characters. All without even paying for the account.


Yes, I've heard about that. Its one of the reasons that Blizzard has added digital authenticators to their system. I've not heard of anyone losing an account protected by one.  I wish more games had that option.

Originally posted by Pharoin

Am i missing something or did people forget that there are gold farmers, power-levelers and people who u spam u about the services?


There will always be those to some extent. But Blizzard seems to have become rather effective in dealing with those.  From my experience the Asian games tend to have worse problems with those.  I'm not quite certain as to the reason.

Originally posted by DevilXaphan

Sorry you didn't enjoy the spam, but it seems others have gotten around this and block them every so often. As you have said a good game, but accusing a company of being in league with the spammers and botters is rediculous indeed.

Only being out three weeks, they are looking into ways to stop it and their is a little program on Aion Source that might help.


True its only been a few weeks. But whats the excuse for NCsofts Linage2 being overrun by bots and spammers?  Lets see how quickly and consistently they address this problem in Aion.

Originally posted by aeroplane22

I'm shrugging it off because I'm not a market investor. I'm a player of games, not a financial executive. I suspect everyone else on these forums is also just a player of games, yes?

What I'm tired of, is people assuming they know about "market dynamics" simply because they go with the flow of subscribers in a MMO.

I wish the best to CCP as well. The point I was trying to make is that CCP is doing it. Of all the companies that could be making an FPS shooter, that will supposedly tie into a MMO, I wouldn't have expected CCP to try, it's just odd.

Oh, but I suppose if I so much as question the reality of the situation, then I "know little of market dynamics." lol

Super Smash Bros. Brawl was amazingly successful. Success=Great game.. ?


Success is measured differently by different people.  But I doubt you would find many game companies that wouldn't want to trade places with Blizzard in terms of WoW subscribers... The phrase "market dynamics" is properly applied to analysis of the variables involved in a given market sector.  Its a quite common phrase from the field of economics.  Personally, I find console FPS games to be too restricted in comparison to PC FPS titles.  But then all of my personal skills and experience are in PC FPS games.  I suspect that CCP is looking at the profit potential available in the console market, and the fact that "hacking" consoles is inherently more difficult. Note I did NOT say impossible. It just requires a different set of skills and hardware.  But those aren't nearly as wide spread as those for PC's are.  Bottom line, lets see how this works out. Its at least a year or two away in any event.

Originally posted by tvalentine
Originally posted by aeroplane22

What does being an "untapped market" have to do with anything? We're talking about the quality of an MMO here, not the "market success".

There have been all kinds of console MMO-esque games. I can't think of them all, but for starters:

Phantasy Star Online
EverQuest Online Adventures
Final Fantasy


those are MMOs ... Dust is a FPS..... the rest of your post is just PC gamer elitest talk that is so biased i would be wasting my time pointing out how wrong you are. FPSes can and are very successfull on consoles, Halo, Killzone, Rainbow six to name a few have sold millions upon millions of copies. Quit crying because your PC isnt allowed to install every game thats ever going to be released.


Exactly. Its all about the numbers. Those that shrug off the phrase "untapped market" are demonstrating that they understand little of the market dynamics at work.  I suspect CCP is at least a little tired of being limited to a niche market. Lets face it, as good as Eve is, there is a rather limited audience for it.  Given a good game, access to the console market could be VERY profitable. All too many people forget that this entire activity when all is said and done is about making a *profit*.  I'm willing to wait and see how this turns out. As always, I wish CCP only the best. They are some very talented and intelligent people.

Originally posted by emarieu

I see dozens of f2p games--they aren't really free to play, if you want any of the things a subscription game allows you to acquire by just playing. If the U.S. market ever tries to switch to this type of game fees--I'll just not play them anymore. I am amazed that anyone would fall for this kind of setup!! I can just imagine the kind of money players actually WASTE each month buying items in the game for REAL money, lol. 


I have no problem what so ever supporting a game I enjoy. I make it a point of purchasing some cash shop items, if I enjoy the game. That is after all, the way that the Dev's make money from their efforts.  One does have to be careful, because its all too easy to spend more than one is expecting, but thats a matter of awareness and self discipline.

Originally posted by Codenak

I believe it's been stated by CCP personnel that Dust514 will NOT go to PC unless and until they can find a foolproof way to secure it against hacking, give the cough metagaming cough that occurs in eve online, this is a good thing, as Dust514 will have at least some effects on Sov in systems with solid planets.


Good luck with that... There is no such thing as a client side "hack proof" system.  Things like hackshield,  xisign, and gameguard are pathetic jokes. The best security is server side, and even thats not fool proof.  I suspect they are not going to go to PC, but are being vague so as not to alienate their PC player base.  They would also have to have two separate servers for console and PC versions, and that is totally against their single shard ideology. 

Originally posted by bobidobi

UO truly deserves the number 1 spot, I am sure there are some secret plans inside EA about that game.


Yeah right... This *is* EA after all... If they had any intention of doing UO2 they would have long since done so.

Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by Golarum

Well imo, the lack of hunt in PvP is the same problem as in a lot of aspects in MMOs today.

In the old days, we used to get a quest, had to read it, read between the lines to find our objective, now they give you the quest and point you in the right direction either with an arrow or something showing you where the quest is on the map.

In the good old days of EQ, when we wanted to sell something, on the Prexus server, we used to stand under a torch in EC tunnels and shout ''2 bags of stuff for sale, people would come, we would open trade windows and we barter. Now there are the brokers and auction houses.

Again, back then, every fight in the game was challenging, we could be killing a goblin 5 levels under us and be charged by a mob of goblins that we don't know where they came from and kill us. Now all mobs positions are set in stone, they barely move and fights are too easy.

A lot of things have been taken out of mmorpgs today, and PvP is the same now, they made it easy by adding the instanced PvP. So people don't have to hunt other players.

MMORPGs today have no fun factor to me anymore, because the fun part of an mmo to me was how challenging it was, and now there is no more challenge. In PvP it is no different, the fun and challenge of being jumped by another player whatever you're doing or wherever you are is gone.


110% agree with this.


I have been trying to stress this, but I'm met with a resistance of people who say that that isn't fun. Again, instant gratification is for console games. As you mentioned, having to read the quest and get only hints of where I need to go, and of what I need to do is what made it a "quest". Now, again as you pointed out, they give you quest GPS and tell you EXACTLY what to do, how is this engaging or fun? It's the same with PvP...again as you mentioned. Waiting to see how SWTOR handles their PvP system.


Well, as I've stated, every MMO PvP game I've seen has really done little to even slow the gankers/griefers down. Every "new" system thats been tried has only lead to an arms race between the Devs and the gankers/griefers.  I somewhat agree on the quests, but remember it used to be on the other side of the spectrum. I can remember quest text that was so vague, that it might as well have been something like "Something needs to be done some place in the world...Go do it"... So now we've gone to the other extreme.  Also keep in mind that "fun" means different things to different people. The test in a market economy is if people keep paying for something.  If they do, then they must see some utility to it.

Oh my dear sweet lord... Those guys have WAY too much time on their hands...

Originally posted by gkk1212
Originally posted by Evolution8

What will i be you ask?? I will be one of the thousands that throw it in the trash, damn korean grind fest


noob.. go throw it away go back to WoW were you belong...

you can't deal with a game that needs intellect to play, not just pressing keys over an over you WoW players make me sick.

stay with your heads in the sand!



ROTFLMAO!! I was wondering when the hysterical Aion Defense Farce was going to show up. I suppose it hasn't dawned on you, that not everyone who doesn't care for Aion is playing WoW?...<rolls eyes>

Originally posted by batolemaeus

That's a lot of tears from you, decoy26517.
I wonder what horrible, unspeakable things Eve has done to you that you feel the need to share your angst with others.


Hmmm... I doubt it was the game. The Goonies on the other hand... I quite enjoy Eve. But then I stay in high sec, I'm still in SWA after almost 4 years, and I just run L4 missions. So I know little about the PvP aspects. But I do know that the combat system is more complex than he appears to realize.

You ask that of EA? Because the reality is they are COMPLETELY clueless when it comes to MMO's. One need look no further than their bumbling with Earth and Beyond to see that.  I place EA's closing of Earth and Beyond,  right up there with SOE's destruction of SWG's by the introduction of the NGE.  Anyone who loved E&B knows what I'm speaking of.  EA should stick to console clones of Madden 2109 and other such dribble. Its what they seem best suited for,  I shudder in HORROR knowing that EA has purchased Bioware, and no doubt will fumble TOR in their usual ham handed fashion.  But the jury is still out on that one.

Most companies in the west are leary of F2P games because of three major elements I suspect. One, as has been stated, F2P doesn't play well with western investors/shareholders. They are MUCH more about making the quarterly report look sweet, than anything long term(as usual Blizzard is the exception that proves the rule).  Second, fair or not, F2P games have gained a poor reputation in the west for being low quality shovel ware. Not to mention attracting a demographic that isn't interested and/or able to invest in the game. 

Third, there is the cultural differences between the east and the west.  F2P works well in the east because they tend to favor PVP grinders that can be popped out like they are on an assembly line. Most of the popular ones are based on the same handful of re skinned/re purposed engines.  That difference in culture is what is also causing so many problems for the Asian companies attempting to expand in to the west.  They can't seem to comprehend that the western demographics for gankfest/griefer games is much lower in the west, than it is in the east.  Not only that, but has anyone noticed that all three of the games NCsoft has closed have been western? Until those and other aspects of the problem are addressed, the movement of F2P into the west will remain slow.

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