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All Posts by qombi

All Posts by qombi

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Originally posted by Calind0r

AoC is the sleeping giant...it's a monster of a game which deserves millions of subscribers...Unfortunately it's reputation was *deservingly* ruined and tarnished because of the problems at launch.

No thanks, I tried it. Age of Conan is instanced to death, doesn't even feel like there is a world there. Also the game feels like an adventure game, not an rpg. The dungeons are trivial AOE zergs.

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Even for those in which your comment is true am I to sit here and to believe that the possibility totally escapes your mind that an inherent "but adjusted" variable is also in play here? Or do they have to specifiy it to you with each feature they mention? Sure, I think I could be on board with ditching instances and going back to camping mobs? I also think that each mob should be evaluated as to whether it is a high traffic quest mob or a rare item quest mob, and that the game should look at how many people are in the area with that quest and adjust up or down the spawn times.

 That won't help with high-end characters who are camping the boss for the rare drop so they can sell it or give it to lower-level toons.  That happens all the time, I've seen groups of top-end characters camping rare drop mobs for weeks or months at a time, 24/7.  Every time it respawns, they kill it, they get the drop, they get to set the prices on the sales because they're the only ones who can get the item.  Making it respawn faster won't help, it'll just make those characters richer.

Besides, even if you're going to modify the old-school elements, you'd have to modify them so dramatically in most  cases that the old-schoolers wouldn't want to play.  It's a matter of financial stability vs. minority desires.  There was a discusison around here not too long ago about scaling mobs.  They get harder and act differently depending on whether a soloer is playing or a group, therefore everyone gets a challenge and the game doesn't cater to one gameplay style over another.  The groupers hated it, they wanted mobs to *ONLY* work for groupers, they wanted it to be absurdly hard so that no soloer ould ever do the content and they'd be forced to group.  That's exactly the same thing that I foresee with modifying old-school content.  Either it stays primarily old-school, which will drive away the majority mainstream players, or it changes so much that the old-school players keep complaining.  I'm not seeing a middle ground.

I doubt that anyone really wants to wait 30 minutes on a a boat, for example. That said, I see nothing wrong with a 5 or 10 minutes wait. If anything it'll give those with ADD who cower at that little bit of time a chance to go to the bathroom, get a drink/smoke or go check on their kids/check facebook/make pub plans (for those who complain that they don't want downtime because they "have a life").

 Funny, people were saying they liked it in this very thread.  They hailed the downtime as forced socialization  because you really had nothing else to do and if people weren't talking, at least they could be beating each other's brains out.  I'd have a problem with a 5 or 10 minute wait because my playtime is limited and valuable.  I'm playing to have a good time, to be entertained.  I'd no more sit around waiting for a boat in a game that I'm paying for than I would go to a movie and sit around for 10 minutes watching a blank screen in the middle.

That's the problem (as I see it and I'm certainly not suggesting you you see it). Those older systems haven't seen subsequent iterations. They instead were dumped sum total for something totally else and the people that loved them but knew they could do with a little tweaking here or there were left hanging in the wind. And those aren't the only features that get brought up. As I said before, those are just the ones some folks keep focusing on because of the possible shock value they can get out of them in a counter argument. Especially when they don't even acknowledge that time variable of those, which seems to be causing all the fuss, can be pared down a little to not be as extreme as before but not be so insignificant.

 They were dumped because they didn't make the cut.  They were evolutionary dead ends.  The majority of people who liked them moved on to WoW-style games, as well as the millions of mainstream players who would never have played UO or EQ to  begin with.  The marketplace changed, you have to deal with it.

You're missing the point that to many, perhaps most players, *ANY* time variable will be too extreme and these are the people who pay the bills of MMO developers.  I don't want to wait 30 minutes to have fun.  I don't want to wait 10 minutes to have fun.  I want to have fun right now.  That's what I'm paying for.  I'll bet you anything that if you gated off an area with a 10 minute boat ride, that area would die a slow, lingering death.  People just wouldn't do it and if they had to, they'd complain long and loud about how long it took.  That's the MMO marketplace today and they have a lot more money than your group does, by several orders of magnitude.  Who do you think will get catered to?

And ultimately, I haven't seen one single person who likes the old school style demanding that all future games be made in that manner such that everyone has to play those type games. They're just looking for one modern made game to capture those things made by a company who has the money to even be in this business in the first place.

What you miss is that every  game out there has to make money.  All of them.  So you can't ask that some company throw away their financial future and millions of dollars in investor money to make your tiny little niche group happy.  The companies who have money have it because they make intelligent business decisions.  They know who their audience is and what their audience wants.  Unfortunately for you, the vast majority of MMO players do not want what you want.  It would be a crapshoot to even try to modify old-school mechanics into a new-school game for the reasons I outlined above. There's no guarantee that *ANYONE* would like it and that's millions of dollars and years of development down the drain if they're wrong.

So yes, it is too much to ask for a single game to cater to your minority playstyle, at least unless you can demonstrate that such a game has as much potential to make as much money as a modern day game would.  But every time I bring that up, old-schoolers whine "It's not our job!"  Of course it is.  You want the game, you have to show it's financially viable.  Of course, I think the old-schoolers know that it isn't, which is why they don't even try.  It's easier to whine about something you know is wrong than to try and prove it and have everyone else know it's wrong too.

If you played as much as you type in forums, you would be a hardcore gamer. In fact I don't think you should have an issue with downtime to chat in a game. That is what we do on these forums and we keep coming back.

I will sell you something for 15/month and 50/expansion if you want that you will never have to touch or even look at. I gaurantee you can watch TV or anything else while you enjoy my game.

 

Boy, that above sounds stupid, but i think alot of WoW players would buy it!

I won't go back because SOE has changed the game so much. The dot system over the monster's heads anymore mean nothing, suppose to give you an idea on how many players it will take to kill it.  SOE gutted it like they did EQ2, EQ and numerous other games. All they needed to fix was the performance and bug issues.

They also ruined the way travel was suppose to be etc etc. There is plenty different about the game then what it was suppose to be.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Khalathwyr
Originally posted by nariusseldon

And those people will be right. There is a reason why old schools is OLD.

If you want some game with "featuers" like long down-time and take-a-number and camp for hours ... don't get your hopes up. They won't be back.

Oh, and then OP you have posts like this that assume they know what features you're talking about and cherry pick the negative ones and try to use them as "arguing points". They must have their way rule with an iron fist and anyone else be damned. There is noone elese's way but their way and everyone else needs to hush.

But these are the features that keep being brought up by the pro-old-school camp!  They specifically want the long down-time because it "forces people to socialize"!  They want the camping because they don't want instances!  It isn't someone cherry picking bad features that nobody wants, it's just listening to the old-schoolers describing exactly what they do want!

Even for those in which your comment is true am I to sit here and to believe that the possibility totally escapes your mind that an inherent "but adjusted" variable is also in play here? Or do they have to specifiy it to you with each feature they mention? Sure, I think I could be on board with ditching instances and going back to camping mobs? I also think that each mob should be evaluated as to whether it is a high traffic quest mob or a rare item quest mob, and that the game should look at how many people are in the area with that quest and adjust up or down the spawn times.

 

I doubt that anyone really wants to wait 30 minutes on a a boat, for example. That said, I see nothing wrong with a 5 or 10 minutes wait. If anything it'll give those with ADD who cower at that little bit of time a chance to go to the bathroom, get a drink/smoke or go check on their kids/check facebook/make pub plans (for those who complain that they don't want downtime because they "have a life").

 

That's the problem (as I see it and I'm certainly not suggesting you you see it). Those older systems haven't seen subsequent iterations. They instead were dumped sum total for something totally else and the people that loved them but knew they could do with a little tweaking here or there were left hanging in the wind. And those aren't the only features that get brought up. As I said before, those are just the ones some folks keep focusing on because of the possible shock value they can get out of them in a counter argument. Especially when they don't even acknowledge that time variable of those, which seems to be causing all the fuss, can be pared down a little to not be as extreme as before but not be so insignificant.

 

And ultimately, I haven't seen one single person who likes the old school style demanding that all future games be made in that manner such that everyone has to play those type games. They're just looking for one modern made game to capture those things made by a company who has the money to even be in this business in the first place.

Exactly! I would also like to add I miss having alot of factions that mean something in MMOs. In Everquest there were many towns and not every race/class was liked everywhere. I also like the distinct towns for each race. The world felt alive and different where ever you went. There was freedoms I miss, such as being able to give items to NPCs and they would equip it, cast beneficial spells on NPCs, attack any NPC you wanted, drop things on the ground. I like the realisms removed, weight of stuff mattered, you had to keep food and drink. I miss the codependency and differences of each class, you needed druids or wizards to travel quickly around the world, melee needed casters to bind, classes had very unique buffs and abilities that formed a well oiled group. Now days, to make sure everything is equal classes are blan and all feel the same. They really have very little to offer each other than what they already have.

Cryptic's strategy now seems to be throw out garbage as fast as you can. Make initial sells off of the box and lifetime subs and then move the the next scam. I will not be touching any Cryptic products.

Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by uquipu

Lots of nostalgia going on in this topic.
.
Fact is, you can play EQ or UO right now. Why aren't you? Experience the tedium for yourself.

"Oh, because it's not the same, they've dumbed the games down!"

Typical excuse.  These people want to live in the early 1990s.

Why do you have a vendetta against people who want old style MMORPGs with tons of innovation and deep gameplay mechanics? (in before LOLOLOLOL TIME SINKS trolling attempt) 

Because he may have been one of the people that was unable to get groups. You had to be social and friendly to level in EQ

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by uquipu

Lots of nostalgia going on in this topic.
.
Fact is, you can play EQ or UO right now. Why aren't you? Experience the tedium for yourself.

"Oh, because it's not the same, they've dumbed the games down!"

Typical excuse.  These people want to live in the early 1990s.

Pathetic response given because you have nothing real to offer. I still play Final Fantasy VII becaue it is still the great game it was. MMOs don't exist anymore in the original stated that made them a hit in the first place. They are all mutated garbage of features mangled together with their direction changed at least 15 times. Even WoW was a good game in 2004, the current babyfied version is awful. The original game had crowd control and tactics in dungeons .. not just smashing your face on the keyboard ADD running through as fast as you can with no chance of death. I find a lack of challenge not fun.

Originally posted by uquipu

Lots of nostalgia going on in this topic.
.
Fact is, you can play EQ or UO right now. Why aren't you? Experience the tedium for yourself.

If you are smart you would realize the games of the past don't exist. What exist is a mutation of once great games and this includes WoW. I will admit the original WoW was fun, now it is so dumbed down it's trivial and boring.

Originally posted by Daffid011
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Daffid011

I suspect you are right that most wow players will not leave wow for a game that is nearly identical, but it is hard to say that based on past offerings.  Lotro played like a travel sized version of wow that lacked many of wows features and the other games were just a terrible mess at release.

 

It is very possible that people have had so much of wow they might just play a reskinned clone IF it was done well enough.  However I think most companies would do better emulating what made wow a success and not emulating wow itself.  Take the popular game model and imporve upon that.  Listen to what players are asking for and find solutions to that.

 

 

 

That's already what WoW did with EverQuest. They took what made it money and then dumbed it down for mass appeal. Can't really dumb it down any further than WoW already has. There's nowhere lower to go. Games are gonna have to start doing something different. 

People didn't flock to EQ, because more people did not find it entertaining to sit around for 15 hours straight only to have 15 minutes of entertainment.  Once you get past the ridiculous time sinks put into the game, EQ wasn't any harder than current mmos and I would argue that current mechanics and encounters are way more difficult. 

Time is not a measurement of skill or intelligence.  It does little more than challenge a players tollerance. 

EQ never captured the mass market, because it was the first of its kind and loaded with problems and mechanics that prevented it from attracting masses of people.  There was a ton of areas that needed improvement and the results are clear. 

EQ did have the mass market for it's time in MMO history. It was a different time in 1999, PCs were more expensive and bandwidth was low. Also MMOs were still a pretty new thing. EQ was a hit because EQ was a great MMO. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean alot did not. I remember when EQ even was mentioned in the news because it was such a big thing. You must have not been old enough to remember EQ or just wasn't into online games then.

EQ was fun. Did it take an extemely long time to level in EQ? Sure it did. I didn't say I agree with everything about what EQ was. What I do find funny though is why is everyone in a rush to finish an online game they pay monthly for? I want my online games to take a very long time to level as long as there is content to go with it. I would love a game to take a long time to level if it had a great many dungeons to do at every level and other meaningful activities.

Only thing it shows when a game makes leveling trivial is, the game doesn't have much to content. End game doesn't have to be the focal point. I say if leveling is meant to be trivial as all devs seem to think now, lets remove it then . There is no point having levels if they mean nothing.

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by uquipu

.
Big companies would have marketing panels and professional marketers who's sole job is to find out what their market wants.
.
I'll go with that idea rather than they code blindly, just hoping for a hit.

Precisely.  I think there are people around here who think, just because they want something, everyone else ought to want it too.  They vastly over-estimate the market for their particular niche interests and then they don't consider that these companies have to make money to stay in business, so catering to every tiny niche audience with their own personal game simply isn't going to happen.

Then again, I think there's a huge number of people out there who are convinced that just because they want something, someone owes it to them.

These people are in for a big surprise in the real world.

Again, show me the hard data showing what the majority wants. What I read is you telling everyone else they are in the minority and then saying that you are with the majority. This all comes from your made up statistics. Funny, I underlined what you typed where you should take your own advice.

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by qombi

There was plenty of features in older MMOs that were great. I don't know, nor do you know the percentage of players that would play a game with features of the previous MMOs if it was a great game. Don't pretend you have these facts.

Nobody knows because nobody has done any credible research and that's what any company is going to need before spending millions of dollars and many years developing a game which may or may not have an audience!  These companies do tons of market research before committing to a game design, the fact that they do not make old-school games has to say something about the results of that research.

Companies make games for the market that actually exists, not the one that only exists in your head.

I see, that must be why all these newly release games are doing great, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Age of Conan and other "researched" MMOs? In my opinion they go by the biggest loud mouths on forum boards that complain about everything in games being too hard or tediious. I believe these newest crop of games took it too far, leaving people unsatisfied. 

There has been studies that suggest humans think they want everything laid in their lap but in actuality people do want to struggle some to obtain what they want. This makes them feel satisfied. Marketing research can only take you so far. I never claimed to know what everyone wants, I said you and I both don't know how many people would like a lot of features of previous MMOs that are not included in new MMOs. You are the one with facts that only exist in your head.

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Varny

People dismiss it as purely nostalgia but frigging we've pointed out what is wrong with modern MMOs....

First off, you've pointed out your opinion about modern MMOs, that doesn't mean there is anything actually wrong with them, only that you, as an individual, don't care for them.  Your opinion is noted.  Secondly, it's clear that you represent a tiny minority of the overall MMO marketplace, someone who is part of an infinitessimally small group that is unhappy with the direction MMOs went.  Also noted.  However, you have to be realistic and acknowledge that no MMO developer in their right mind is going to cater to a group so financially irrelevant as the old school gamer.  You had your shot.  You lost.  At least admit defeat gracefully.  It's the mature thing to do.

Says you with all the facts to back your claims .....

 

There was plenty of features in older MMOs that were great. I don't know, nor do you know the percentage of players that would play a game with features of the previous MMOs if it was a great game. Don't pretend you have these facts.

It's just a lot of people feel he is in the pockets of the big named MMO publishers. He seems to have an agenda and that is to try to make cash shops an accepted thing. If I am wrong okay, but I have to wonder who is padding those pockets

Originally posted by cyphers

Lol. People complaining there's too little grind while leveling :-)

To those, I'd recommend trying out Aion, that'll keep you busy, trying to hit L50.

 

Heaven forbid someone wants to actually spend some time playing the game they bought and pay monthly for. What is funny is people that beg for a game they purchase and pay monthly for to have less content and go by very quickly.

Originally posted by Torak
Originally posted by JthX

Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?

I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?

How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?

Dark blue on Black.... Unwise choice.

 

What most people overlook is many of the "old school" games are still running and have refined and corrected many of the negitive aspects of the games.

All MMOs ruin what made them a hit with time. I have never seen a great MMO stay a great MMO.

Originally posted by astrob0y
Originally posted by arcdevil
Originally posted by Dixi01

WoW, if we speak about equipment, not leveling, is also group/raid game

WoW made a genious move which funnily is what all idiots complain about... periodic gear sweeping balances. with every patch they introduced new, better gear easily available for the solo crowd equivalent or even better than the former "top" gear , so everybody can face the new content with a chance to do it, instead of continuously lagging behind to the point where its just not worth it to play anymore.

 

stupid games that dont do this? warhammer, once you hit tier 4 (32) you are playing in the same field with the rest of RR80 full sovereign dudes, who chop you and your whole party to pieces in 0,0004 seconds flat...and you'll have to deal with that for the whole year that will take you to get to the point where they are.

 

there's a reason to why games like WoW have kept millions of subs for years, and games like WAR hit the rock bottom and STILL are bleeding subs like a hemophiliac whose arm was axed

yes yes! to bad haters gonna hate

Internet Gangster!

Originally posted by Shedarii

One word: Ryzom

 

Longer explanation:

 

Ryzom is a MMO with pretty much a dead population. Its heavily group focused. It does not work, because most of the people are in the higher end of the game...and the game has such a low pop, even the trial isle is hard to find groups in.

 

See the problem? In a heavy group focused MMO, its great at release when everyone can easily find groups...in the long run, it does not work. The people either move on to the higher end content, so newbies have a hard time grouping and therefor a very hard time doing anything in-game. Or the population dies out so much, no one can find a group...and that does not work either.

 

I don't like easy mode solo either, like in WoW its IQ dropping easy. But a forced/heavy group focused MMO doesn't work either.

I think if we are deciding that lower end content needs to be done quickly to get up to speed with all other players, then there should be no levels. Why not just have a game start where normally people consider the finish line where gear collection begins from dungeons and raids?

If leveling has to be trivial, fast, and solo. I don't even want to do it. Why have it if it means nothing.

Originally posted by Deadalon

Originally posted by WSIMike
Originally posted by Deadalon

Few things from an old WOW player here too.

First off... WOW is not just big.  It is big cause it has provided something that players are looking for.  None of the dying "giant" before WOW ever got close to the size cause they were not as "good" games (good in terms of what ppl were looking for in MMOs"

You are dismissing some points that are extremely important here.

First... a large number of people who came to WoW didn't know what a MMORPG even was, nor were they "looking for one". They wanted to play the newest Warcraft game. That it happened to be a MMORPG was incidental. Blizzard could have made a Warcraft based FPS and it would have attracted as huge a built-in fan-base. I think, frankly, WoW's initital success owes a lot to the work they'd done previously to earn that fan-base to begin with. Had the Warcraft series not been as good as it was, I don't think WoW would have done as well.

You also can't ignore the "phenomenon factor" wherein anything that becomes a huge deal (tickle-me-elmo dolls... furbies... cabbage patch dolls back in the 80s... etc. etc.) will attract a large number of people who wouldn't otherwise give them a second look, because they want to be "part of something".

A large part of WoW's popularity also comes from its easy approach to gameplay with lots of hand-holding, generous rewards aplenty for even the most menial accomplishment and barely a slap on the wrist for failure.

It's become a derogatory statement to say that WoW is "easy mode", but there is much truth to the statement, especially considering it was Blizzard's intention to create it that way. Whether that's good or bad depends on the individual.

Point is... While there's no denying WoW's success, it's far too "simple" to say it's simply because "it's more 'good" of a game than others". A number of factors contributed to WoW's success, not all of which were attributable to the game itself.


No other game in the forseeable future will be able to create a better blend of features - than what WOW has managed to.  Im sorry but ppl will just have to admit that by now.

Well that's not exactly a bold prediction... "nothing in the foreseeable future" is a rather limited frame of time, not to mention subjective. What's "foreseeable future" equate to? A few months? A year? Two years? Considering MMOs can take 2-3 years to develop alone, "foreseeable future" could be at least that long.

I bought EQ and played it the month before WOW came out.  It just wasnt' good enough game.  It was that simple.  I did not like Warcraft games but I played MMOs before that...  I dont know where you get the idea into your head that WOW was only played by Warcraft fans. 

About your "easy mode".  MMOs are games.. they are NOT work... and neither are they your only life.  Many of the old MMO fans consider MMORPGs to be their only life - forgetting that they should be about fun first and foremost.   Thats probalby the thing that irritates ppl the most... WOW IS actually fun while many other MMOs are grindy and repetitive.  Lets look at WAR and AOC again.. they offer pretty much the exact same questing mecanics as WOW did 3 years ago.  WOW moved on and created a new lvl with flying mounts - they are still expanding on it.. at the same time AOC and WAR are still on the gound doing the same crap over and over... Still fixing what was badly broken at launch.

Fun is subjective. I don't find trivial unchallenging gameplay fun. I find it boring. I find WoW's easy dungeon zergs with no CC, no chance of death boring. I play games to enjoy over coming a challenge. At this point in WoW's life there is no challenge left.

If I wanted to instant win, I wouldn't even play a game. I would rather lay back and watch a movie.

I quit long ago when they announced an item shop. I pay a sub fee that should include the whole game.

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