All Posts by qombi

Originally posted by BlackWatch

So... you start playing the game with 5 friends.  You all level up together for weeks.  You die.  They keep going.  You get to spend a few weeks grinding your toon back up solo. 

Unless you can hit max level and get back into the meat of the game within a few days... I just don't see a 'perma-death' death penalty being that great of an option. 

Level loss, skill loss, xp loss, item decay, item loss, currency loss???  Lose your estate or all in game property?

...

If you are a newb and you don't want to be killed... you have to pay a 'fee' to a 'clan' or 'guild' for their 'protection'. 

Or... if you need to quest in a certain area and it 'belongs' to a certain 'guild' or 'clan'... you have to pay them off so that 1) they won't kill you and/or 2) they will protect you. 

Eve Online... Conan style?

 

 

No one here is arguing for perma-death. Death penalty can mean many things. If you think one death is going to leave you in the dust as you put it, then are mistaken. EQ had death penalities and people died and yet still was able to continue playing with friends. It didn't ruin you it just made you be more cautious. Games need some penalties in place for bad game play. And to the person that acts as if AOC is going to take along time to level in, I would guess that you are wrong.

It is following the most easy game ever to level and that was WoW where levels meant nothing. Leveling is trivial in WoW. I gaurantee AOC will be following the same philosphy easy shallow instant gratification game.

Originally posted by safwd

You are right, the flame war that insued was ridiculous. But i really doubt that the OP really wanted to hear reasons why people want a harsher DP in games. Actual reasons which sound valid have been given but they are met with ridicule.

This is why it is really an issue for me. I can understand why some dont want a harsh DP, alot of the crowd that started with EQ, UO, AC dont have the time they once did to play video games and a harsh DP makes the time they have seem less. I can understand that, though i dont share in it, i also have less time to play games then i did when i started EQ, actually it is more that i choose to play less because i probably could play for 4-5 hours a day still, i just dont want to. At  best i will probably play a game 5-8 hours a week now, if that, and i still want a game like EQ vis a game like WoW.

The new crowd is what bothers me. The crowd that never played a game with a harsh DP, the crowd that started with say EQ2, WoW or LoTRs. Now every game has to be like those and since the community who plays MMOs has grown so much due to this new crowd they have a large voice which the Devs tend to listen to. 5 years ago the MMO community was content having games that catered to different playstyles, sure we talked smack about each other but we didnt really try to change games. That isnt the case now. Now a game goes into development and they post what they are planning on having in the game and it gets jumped on by a pack of wolves. There seems to be a set formula now for games and if it is deviated from the game gets destroyed. PoTBS gets destroyed in the forums yet there are people who enjoy it, and enough people to make the game profitable. TR is the same way. These two games are different from the WoW formula so they get destroyed on the boards. I dont care for either of them myself but i truely hope that they succeed because if they get shut down due to all the naysayers then it is just one more step in the direction of all MMOs  being WoW clones because no one is willing to try something different.

Not all games have to be the same, nor should they. Diversity is the best thing that could happen to this genre.

I have read a lot of your post and I have to agree with everything you write. Players need to understand not every game should be same. Diversity like you said is a good thing. We have it in single player games and we should as well in MMORPGs. After WoWs big take over in the MMORPG market I feel other companies would be more profitable going after certain type of gamers for their game rather than please them all approach to pull chunks away from the giant. That is how it will be done in the future I believe instead of the please the all approach which in the end gives the player a mediocre experience.

There is a audience out there right now that is untapped and that is the crowd that is looking for challenge, harsher penalties, more of an adult mmorpg that takes some time to play. When a company comes around to making this game that is well designed and plays as smooth as WoW does .. you will see a big audience for it. It may not be as giant as WoW's population but I think it will take a chunk out of WoW's audience that wants that experience. I also think a solid PvP game will do the same and so on. I think the future will show after WoWs big success the days are over when one company holds all the cards. After WoWs success there will be too much competition for the one MMORPG takes all philosphy. I don't think we will see a big giant like WoW again.

WoW won't be killed by another MMORPG it's population will just gradually get lower as more specific MMORPGs targetted towards different crowds take chunks out of it. That is my view on it. MMORPGs are seen as gold mines now and there will be many many in the future. They better start making themselves stand out to a particular audience.

I can't help people are too dense to find all the quest in the game.  I did not once have to kill monsters in that game without a quest being the objective. More than half the WoW population do not seem to be very bright in the first place. I could link you a some leveling guides I have seen on the web that is quest all the way to the top if you don't believe it can be done.

I enjoyed some parts of WoW but the community was horrible. I found it absurd when I read the upped the xp for leveling. I about fell out of my chair laughing. Before that I have always believed leveling was too fast to begin with and they ruined the game even further. How fast do people want to rush to the end of an online game they are playing? Do you go to the store when buying a single player rpg and ask the clerk which one can I finish in the least amount of time? Surely you do not. Then why would anyone in their right mind want to finish their MMORPG faster when they are paying monthly to enjoy the online world?

People just do not seem to be very bright. WoWs philosphy is the leveling process is trivial just in the way of end game. Why do they not just remove it if that is how they feel. They mind as well, if it is just a stepping stone to the finish line. WoW is a horrible designed rpg. The journey should be where the game is at, not the finish line. The journey should have raids, group dungeons to be explored through out the leveling process not at the finish line only. You should spend some time at each level not a day or so.

If you believe WoW to be a long leveling process or a grind, then apparently you have never played a older MMORPG like EQ where levels meant something. EQ is now garbage but it use to be a great game.

It it how you look at it anyway. When I played EQ with a group I never felt I was "grinding". I was adventuring with a group. I was chatting and having fun working together to meet the challenges. If you feel that killing things in a game you pay for is a "grind" then maybe you are playing the wrong genre. FPS require no leveling. I find them cheap and shallow instant gratification garbage but some love them.

One thing WoW did right was the low machine requirements and yet the art was great. I don't like WoW for a lot of reaons but they did that right. If Warhammer is doing the same thing then that is the right thing to do. I prefer less than optimum graphics if that means the game play is as smooth as WoWs. Pretty is nice untill you are so lagged that you have trouble playing.

Talk to Vanguard.

Originally posted by jasco20

A huge, beautiful, diverse gameworld to explore and enjoy with my friends.

Engaging quest based gameplay. 

Grinding discouraged by gameplay mechanics.  ELIMINATE THE GRIND!!!

An intelligent level of dynamic content; a changing world with MOBS driven by advanced AI. 

An Intelligent, interactive combat system.

A fully fleshed out and balanced Supply & Demand based economic model.

That's a start anyway...

Everyone that says eliminate the grind, I don't understand. RPGs have always been about character progression. I think the games of today are too fast and shallow as is. WoW already is quest all the way to the top. Any easier and you should just remove leveling and make it a FPS. I prefer my online games to last a long time. I pay monthly for it, so I don't want it to end in a few months. Anyone that had to grind in WoW was just lost. I quested the whole way ... which I hated. I hate quest based MMORPGs. I prefer it to be like EQ where I go with a group and  make my own adventures. I don't need some linear quest line garbage to lead me around.

NPC quest givers do not equal a online world rather just another game.

Originally posted by ZoOoO

balance PvP is a must for me.

If you want a "balanced" PvP experience you will be better off playing a FPS. In a MMORPG good pvp is team PvP where people work together to defeat the other team. Each class has to be different in rpgs and they compliment each other to get a job done. They should be weak on thier own, in a group is where they strong. This isn't a little FPS where you run around and kill people solo, this is a MMORPG. If they made each class dps and all have the same abilities with different names you have a pathetic game.

Originally posted by Raztor

 

Originally posted by Ngeldu5t

Originally posted by korvass

I agree with Alienovrlord, niche markets don't survive too well in this modern market. Look what happened to Fury, a PvP-only game. They officially closed down after what, one month? Personally I'm a roleplayer, but can you imagine what would happen if they made a RP-centric game where you had to make all the content yourself? Yeh, that's right, it would close down after one month as well.

However, I think it's a pity that niche games don't have much of a chance. There should be games to cater to all tastes. hardcore PvP folks, hardcore RP, casual, whatever you like.

Niche game can survive if they are well done and released with few bugs.EvE Online is a niche game which doing well and I believe that the game will be there for a very long time.Vanguard could have been great if Sigil didn't ruin it all.I do hope that AoC too will be a niche game that will survive.

I would hardly consider EVE a niche game now considering it has passed 200k subscribers, and continues to grow. Source.

 

 

Niche game has nothing to do with how many subs it has, rather than if they are targetting a very specific audience. I don't think you understand what a niche game is.

Originally posted by TedDanson

Global Warming is a huge issue, and we appreciate his work to bring it to light but Al Gore has no place in Warhammer Online.

That was witty, made me laugh.

Originally posted by singsofdeath

I love how people who rant about realism and about challenges and about how much more rewarding a game with so-called "harsh" DP's go on and on about how pathetic those of us are, who have a different point of view than their own. Like it elevates them to some kind of "better" gamer status. Ridiculous really.

 

That being said, anything proposed in this thread as harsh, is, in fact, -NOT- harsh, nor is it realistic. It's merely -ANNOYING-. Losing XP? Just causes you to kill x more mobs. Losing your equipment? Just causes you to run and get new stuff. Stat Loss? Also just a matter of more invested time. There's nothing -HARSH- about that, it's just plain added time-sinks. Why? Because no matter how good you are, you will never continually survive in a MMO. Eventually, your char WILL die and you will invest more time to fix the DP. No matter if it's because of lag, a player who's simply better than you, or being ganked.

 

The only -realistic- and really -harsh- DP is Perma-death. That's right. You die, your character is gone. THAT's realistic. That's HARSH. Anyone who tells me XP loss on death is more realistic is just not making much sense. Losing equipment on death? Not any more realistic than just waking up a few minutes later without anything having happened at all.

 

So really, all of you elitists who seem to think that enjoying time-sinks (read harsh-DP's) in a game  elevates them above the rest of us, making them better gamers, you are not. You are not better gamers, you are not facing harsh consequences and you are most certainly not playing a more realistic game. All you do is make yourself ready to invest more time.

 

This post is by no means intended to flame anyone. I just find it funny how some people think they are so much better than the rest.

So the original poster did not insult other players for enjoying a different style of play? I think he did and he got exactly what he was looking for. He came to upset others. I hate to say it, but a lot of people with his mindset that games should be cake walks, instant gratification garbage tend to be very verbally childish.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

I might be in the minority here, but I don't consider anything I have done playing a video game to be an accomplishment.

You have only played "games" to where MMORPGs use to be "worlds". See that is the difference in how today's gamers feel about mmorpgs and the ones in the past felt about them. EQ was a living breathing world and you felt like you was in it. World of Warcraft is a fun little video game and that is all.

In a world it takes longer to adventure to the in, you had a lot more player interaction, there was more mystery, you were not led around by linear quest, and death was something you didn't want to happen. I liked WoW initially for a little while it was a fun "game". The community was horrible, there was no common bond between players like in EQ. EQ formed these bonds by making you rely on each other to get things completed.

It is ashame a lot missed out on what EQ was. Now EQ is garbage, don't even try it. It would not be worth it. EQ has changed too much. MMORPGs are going the way of the console games. Shallow instant gratification garbage that is too easy.

I started with EQ. There is one MMORPG I regret not trying after I heard so many great things about it and that was Star Wars Galaxies. I have heard the horror stories though how Sony has ruined it, so I guess I wish I could have tried it in it's good days.

When you say not so "grindy" what does that mean? I see this term get thrown around a lot now days for anything that resembles a traditional rpg where you xp to level. WoW was horrible in it took so little time to level. I have actually seen some that say WoW is a grind. That is sad, how fast do people want their online rpg to be finished? You pay monthly for it, I always hope for a long road of leveling.

These games come from DnD in which leveling IS where the fun is. That is what rpgs are, leveling to progress your character. I personally loved EQ as it was one game that didn't make levels trivial, they meant something. If game companies now feel levels are just in the way, then what may I ask IS there game?

When you say not as "grindy" if it is any easier than what WoW is, they should just put you at the finish line and kiss you on the nose.

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I think it is the new community. The people that complain about how long it takes to level, having to group, having to raid/group for gear, or anything else that might take some time to do. Most of these people do not seem to know the concept of what a rpg is. It seems like they have never played DnD and other older great rpg PC games.

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I think the market though is big enough now to make games directed at different audiences instead of please them all approach. You end up just providing a mediocre experience for everyone and people complain. Why not give the people like me their games that take time to level, no instances, very little soloing, no maps, no linear quest.

Then give others games that they may enjoy such as the people who like WoW with it's superfast and easy leveling by linear questing. Easy armor to obtain. How about provide the harsh pvper's with a game that suites their needs. Let's provide those who like sandbox skill based games a home.

There is no reason to say games should not be made a certain way when there are people that like different things and need to have different games. If anything we need to be complaining that they try to lump us all together into a game that tries to please us all ..that isn't going to happen. No offense but many of you in this thread have ideas that I do not find appealing whatsoever. I want EQ type games. You probably do not find them appealing but I bet you there are enough people out there to occupy the type of games we are looking for.

I would be a DS if they had a decent little MMORPG on it. I would cry with joy if they made a little version of EQ classic for the DS or some game with similar game mechanics.

I dislike all the quest in mmorpgs now day. Wouldn't be so bad if they were just optional, but they made them basically mandatory for leveling. Also mmorpgs now days in US are just too fast. I guess us in US like instant gratification. Well most of us I guess. I prefer a game like EQ where I decide what to kill and where to go. I don't need a game deciding that for me.

That's fair enough. : ) I understand what you are saying. Killing the same monster over and over does get old,  I guess the way we stood it in EQ was the social interaction we had in groups. That was a lot of fun. But I do agree, if there were long levels it would be nice to have many options at all levels like great dungeons for groups and raids. If the game is pvp then alot of great pvp objectives (stuff to be captured and held) and fun interesting sets of gear to obtain from either option.

I would just like the emphasis be taken off the finish line and the devs make levels nice and long so as we raid, dungeon explore and pvp we can level as well once in a while and spend more points. That would be a longer lasting game model.

Originally posted by sanicek

You are asking for stats to matter above personal player skill. Why should it? As long as the stats of any kind have even a slight impact or open various options, I'm all for player-skill centric combat/whatever system, it can be twitch based where reflexes matter or some kind of tactic based where your intelectual superiority matters, I don't care. As long as the player skills allows me to prevail more than having level X or gear Y I will be happy.

That isn't an rpg. You are asking for a fpsmmo

Originally posted by sunici

A game without an end. How do you create one and still keep it fresh? You're asking a lot of the designers - generally a player will advance/explore much faster than a developer can create content.  Either you slow down advancement (more grind) and exploration (slower travel), or you hire an unrealistically large staff to keep up with demand.

I don't understand how slowing down leveling means more "grind" and slower travel being any different than faster levels and a large staff pumping out them faster? You are still spending the same amount of time playing yet you feel it is a grind if leveling just takes some time to do.

I feel that if there are things to do with groups/raids at various levels then all levels could be "end game"