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All Posts by qombi

All Posts by qombi

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836 posts found

Does it sadden you that MMOs unlike single player games are changed so much from their original designs or are taken offline now they no longer are playable as they were? It does me, a lot of them were work of arts.

 

Example: I still play Diablo 2 without an expansion once in a while and love it. I can't do that with Everquest or World of Warcraft.

 

Last question, how do you feel about the virtual items sold or real money? Do you feel game designers have to intentionally make boring game play to influence players to purchase out of the store?

Originally posted by jpnz

I can grind for 5 hours or I can work at my job for 10 mins and use that money to avoid the grind.

Hmm... I wonder which one I'd choose; 5 Hours vs 10 mins

Tough choice....

Hmmmm ...... play a game I don't really enjoy or pay someone else to play it ... tough choice?

Originally posted by Krimzin

 


Originally posted by Aori

Originally posted by Krimzin I can only speak from my own opinion. People who buy gold are typically people who have disposable income. Someone who has disposable income typically has a good job so it limits the time they can play. They still want to keep up but don't have the time to farm gold and raid. So they buy gold to save time. I get it and could care less if they do. They work for their money and should be able to spend it how they like. I would rather someone work and buy gold then to be unemployed and have massive amounts of gold. Gold Buyer > Deadbeat any day of the week. Again.. Just my opinion.
Yes it is your opinion and it isn't correct. I've had contact with many people who squandered their real cash for money. Some failed to pay rent, some had to use savings, others had to "pawn" their account. I've even known people who were suits that got landed in to trouble from dumping 10s of thousands of dollars in virtual goods.

 

Many people don't have the money to spend on it but like what it does for them.


 

First off, How can my opinion be incorrect? Its my opinion. Get over yourself.

As to my point.

It doesn't matter if someone has a good job or not, poor judgment is poor judgment.
If you make 10k a month and spend 9k on stupid shit, then your a fool.
If you spend $20 here and there to buy gold, who cares. I spend $20 at lunch most days because I refuse to eat the garbage at most fast food places. Does that mean I have poor judgment.. no, it means that I watch what I eat and don't mind paying for it.

What you are posting is a matter of semantics.

You think your opinion is the only one that's right and everyone else is wrong.

I don't think people despise you for your money. Good for you. They probably despise your self entitled attitude, bragging, and all around conceded attitude. Truth is there are plenty people out there probably smarter than you and not as smart as you. Having money usually doesn't mean you are smart, it means you kiss butt well. Money doesn't make you are likable person. But that is okay, I think you like yourself enough to make up for it.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
 
Originally posted by dave6660
By paying to skip parts of the game you don't like or to avoid long / boring grinds you are indirectly advocating that design.  Wouldn't a better use for your money be putting it toward games that don't have said "features"?

Not if said games don't have the game mechanics or IP/setting that i like, and the F2P have them.

Plus, i don't see games that do not have grinds. It is actually good to let the players decide what to avoid, instead of having a one size fit all design.

 

Nariusseldon didn't refute any point you made. He actually strengthened your argument unknowingly. If these so called "casual" players would stop playing games that don't meet their desires that they have to go so far as to go outside of the game with real money and buy things to make it playable, the "F2P" of today wouldn't exist, which is designed with long grinds just to make you buy things. What fun is a poorly designed game? If you are the majority as you say, and didn't pay for games that you felt are so poorly designed you have to do this, games would be designed to meet your needs.

Instead people buy games they apparently find tedious, boring, too challenging, whatever ever reason they feel they have to pay someone else to by pass parts of the game you pay to play .... creating the FTP market. I bet developers ever imagined people would pay money for something that didn't exist. I bet they are laughing all the way to the bank. They probably though people wanted fun games to enjoy their time in, who would have thought.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Impatience to have or attain "things", and/or a need to be competitive or superior to other players as soon as possible, is typically the motivation behind it in my experience.

I've seen and discussed a lot of different explanations, excuses and rationalizations for it, but many of them only work if you look at them superficially. The moment you start thinking about what's being said, and the implications behind it (sometimes those implications are spelled out as well, making it easier to connect the dots), the picture becomes clearer. Again, in every case, it's boiled down to impatience or that need to be competitive.

The "more money than time" argument comes up a lot. It surely works great as a personal rationalization of why it's "okay" to the individual doing it, but it is hardly a sound explanation in any other way. What it really boils down to is someone wanting something faster than they'd be able to get it otherwise. The only value they perceive is having a "thing", whatever that "thing" may be.

They don't perceive the gameplay required to get it as part of the experience - it's just something getting in the way of what they want. Saying "I don't have the time to spend getting it otherwise", is really saying "I don't have the free time to get it as quickly as I'd like to, and I don't have the patience to get it by playing the game as it's designed" -  only they never mention that italicized part. Of course they wouldn't. It puts the onus on them, which is precisely what they don't want. First rule of defending indefensible behavior: always shift the blame and responsibility of your actions to someone or something else.

People will say "well, it takes far too long to get anything done in this game! The designers are idiots!". Again, an argument that - on the surface - seems to make sense. However, it's easily dismantled with a simple question: Too long compared to what? There is no objective, all-encompassing "rule" of "how long any thing in a MMORPG should take". What's "too long" for one person might be just fine for someone else. So, too long compared to what? Well, too long compared to what the individual making the argument would prefer, of course. But they can't acknowledge that. They can't say "It takes longer than I'd like it to", because now they're acknowledging that it's a personal quip, and not a universal issue. And, when you're trying to justify behavior such as buying in-game money, you have to make sure the blame and responsibility lands on anyone but yourself. So, they argue it as a "universal truth" and blame it on the game/developers, hence justifying their engagement in RMT - at least to themselves.

As another example, often times, people will defend buying in-game money by saying "well, the game is so horribly designed and dragged out, that it forces you to buy money just to be able to play it". This is, again, someone freeing themselves of any personal responsibility in the act, by putting the blame on something else (the game/developers). And, for good measure, they'll often say the game "forces" them to buy money. Yep, they play the victim card. So, not only are they justfied (in their own minds) for what they're doing... they are the victim. The game is forcing them to buy that in-game money. It's the game that's the problem. Not them. Of course, this, too is nonsense. It's just another example of how people will spin rationalizations to excuse their own behavior in a situation and avoid any personal responsibility in the matter.

Buying in-game money in a MMO - specifically where such activity is prohibited (a detail so many love to conveniently ignore as though it doesn't apply to them) - is a choice made by people who aren't so much interested in playing the game, as they are in obtaining "things" as quickly as possible. No matter the excuse, explanation, rationalization, justification or spin-doctoring... it boils down to impatience. Nothing more.

 

The same reason everyone will ignore this great response because they don't want to see the ugly truth. The "casual" player argument boils down to usually impatience, greed, laziness, and unwillingness to learn to overcome challenges.

I wouldn't play a video game if I found parts of it so broken I had to bypass them by going outside of the game to skip them. That is my argument. I wouldn't play the game at all if it was designed so poorly I felt I needed to do this.

I played an MMO once (not naming names) that I found the task of collecting materials so boring and unnecessarily long that I decided not to play that one. I put my money towards games that have features I find fun. Games that are not my cup of tea I don't play. Simple as that.

I find what you are doing illogical. I think I will purposely try to entertain myself by raking leaves yet I don't really like raking leaves so I will pay someone else to do it.

Would someone that buys gold explain to me why you would continue participating in something clearly you do not have time for, find too tedious/hard, and/or boring? It sounds like a disorder, you may need to go get help. I would go find a game designed for my life style instead of cheating in a game that was meant to be played for fun. If you aren't playing it, you are in the wrong game.

Originally posted by Deathenger
because grinding resources/farming ad-nauseum sucks. I have bought gold many times. flame away

I wouldn't play a video game if I found parts of it so broken I had to bypass them by going outside of the game to skip them. That is my argument. I wouldn't play the game at all if it was designed so poorly I felt I needed to do this.

I played an MMO once (not naming names) that I found the task of collecting materials so boring and unnecessarily long that I decided not to play that one. I put my money towards games that have features I find fun. Games that are not my cup of tea I don't play. Simple as that.

I find what you are doing illogical. I think I will purposely try to entertain myself by raking leaves yet I don't really like raking leaves so I will pay someone else to do it.

Yes the first time through is great but a good game can still be good with another go at it. The rose colored glasses argument is tired and false. Game companies wouldn't resell remastered old games if that was the case.

It is a shame new generations will never be able to play Everquest or World of Warcraft as they were originally and arguably to some better than the current versions. MMOs drastically change from expansion to expansion, unlike standalone games such as Zelda where my 9 year old son can still enjoy the way it was intended. I will note and he does!

It is similar to making work of arts such as a sculpture from Michael Angelo and over the years rip an arm off, add a gun, remove the head in place for another head etc. I find that sad because I consider some of these original MMOs work of arts lost forever.

I feel developers when expanding upon their game should leave one server behind with the original game on it for those who want to enjoy the game in that state. When another expansion is released leave one more server available with the game + 1 expansion, and so on and so on. The developers could make money with this design scheme. Players who decide to play on these servers could pay to transfer off of them once they decide to and venture on to the next version of the game, be it live or another legacy server.

The developer could even charge a gold membership for access to the live game and the legacy servers. This would allow people to enjoy the game at different times in history with the option to move to live when you choose of course with a cost.


I haven't played live WoW or EQ in about 5 years now I believe because I didn't like the current version of the game. If this design scheme was in place, I would be there playing now and you know what? Would probably have a live character as well to play around with.

Originally posted by Regnor

EQ was the first graphic 3D D&D style MMO, that can't be questioned. Sure, there were other things that preceded and influenced it, and it was somewhat derivative by admission of its creators who were MUD fanatics and D&D players. But it was the first of its kind. WoW certainly was imitative and derivative of it. The point in this discussion is that Blizzard, while a great polisher and producer, is not the most original company in the world. That's ok, they still make fun games, but let's be honest. Even Diablo was not their idea. David Brevik brought it to them and they made it real time because that's what they did at the time RTS, and another franchise was born. And tell me, just what has WoW delivered in the way of innovation? Instanced dungeons were in Anarchy Online, EQ2 was quest driven. What, then, Pandas??

So I join those who are skeptical that Blizzard has what it takes to deliver an original blockbuster. They're like Microsoft, they are huge and able to capitalize on trends created by others. That's not such a bad thing, it's just not very exciting.

Everything created is always influenced by something in the past, be it little or a lot. That is life. End of discussion.

Originally posted by Grailer

For CC to be required you would need mobs that hit so hard that they cant all be tanked at once .

 

Just saying .

 

 

Exactly, the developers have made group monsters too weak or the players too strong .. either way it needs to be corrected.

Originally posted by Mendel
Originally posted by Saydien

Progressing in such a game design sounds even harder. I'm nobody wishing for easy and quick progression but a shortage of people to group with that is the result of game design once the flow of new players decreases, should not be an issue. If a new concept is made then this difficulty should definitely be taken into account.

This is precisely why the OP's idea won't work.   It works great for everyone who enters the game in the first generation, but the subsequent generations simply don't have anyone to 'progress' with.   After the 3rd or so generation of new players, the game dies due to attrition.

I do agree with the OP about the pointless leveling.  It's almost like a prerequisite to see if the player wants to really play the game.   But a gear grind is almost as pointless.   I don't know if I've seen a good solution that removes the repetitive grinding for levels, faction or gear and still retains a degree of progression and accomplishment that are the 'rewards' of RP games.

There could be ways to encourage people to re-run these older dungeon levels. The person with a higher gear set when entering a different lower level would have their gear stats reduced to match the level of that dungeon. When running lower tier dungeons the person would have a chance of their needed gear set dropping just as they would at their dungeon level. No content level would be harder than the next and with gear downgrading it would still be challenging. Everyone would already have all their skills at every gear level because there is no leveling.

 

This way all content in the game is always relevant to everyone. The person at dungeon level 10 may have enjoyed running one of the dungeons at level 1 and so on. Also please do not forget I did mention a variety of different content to obtain your sets; solo, 5 man, 10/15/20 man raids, and PvP content. PvP would never be imbalanced because of gear. If you enter a PvP dungeon level 5 and you are working on dungeon level 9, your gear would be downgraded to match gear of that level temporarily. You still would be recognizable higher because of the looks of the gear but that would be it.

Leveling in current MMOs is pointless. The developer designs all this content that is just rushed through to get to this magical "end game". It has gotten to the point that the developers make leveling so fast and pointless you may ask yourself when playing why does it even exist?

Players get to the end game in no time and begin the "real meat and potatoes" of the game. Players begin to play through small 5 man dungeons and larger raid content to gather equipment to improve their characters. After doing so the player usually sits around bored waiting for the next patch to role out some more dungeon content.

 

Why not remove leveling in the traditional sense? If it isn't going to count for beans, "pretend" to remove it. Developers need to trick the user into believing they are always playing epic end game encounters. Here is where my ideas come into play.

 

Leveling is no more, you start the game in a world were all monsters are relevant to your level. You are in this tier until you gather a certain set epic set of dungeon gear and are keyed after completing a set amount of content. After doing so you are able to cross the portal/door/path or whatever is currently locked preventing you from progressing to the next tier. The next tier there will be similar requirements. This is the overview of what it takes.

There will be several dungeon sets needed to reach those final epic 5 man/raid dungeons to get the epic set of dungeon gear. Before stepping in dungeons though you will need to perform multiple quest in the world or fight named monsters or PvP or find crafting material to create  a decent set of  starter equipment (1st Gear Set). I want multiple of ways of obtaining the same thing so everyone can do what they like to gear up.

Once you have the 1st Gear Set, you will be eligible to enter the 1st dungeons (5 mans, 10/15/20/25 man raids, goal oriented PvP (Both sides will basically have elite mobs you have to keep alive to complete the instance zone. The NPCs through out the instance zone will engage the other NPCs and you!, only one side can win.)  Over time you will have to complete a number of dungeons/arenas/instanced zones and build your 2nd Gear Set to be eligible to enter the 2nd dungeons/arenas/instanced zones etc.

I don't want it linear, you have to complete many of these 1st but not all and obtaining your gear sets will not be a quick task. All content will be elite in nature, some more difficult than others. The chance for gear set items to drop will be relevant to the difficulty. There may be even some long quest chains for solo that has a low chance of dropping set pieces.

Only players of certain classes will be eligible to roll on their set pieces and will not be able to all if they have that set piece already (equipped, in inventory, in the bank, etc). Items will be no drop and not for sale.  Only thing money would be good for is repairing your gear and buying potions/food/water for vendors. There would be no item transfer in this game.

There could be multiple dungeon sets 1-25 or whatever to finally getting the epic dungeon set that will allow you to enter tier 2. This tier would be set up similarly. I hope you enjoyed reading. I would rather play end game content all the time if leveling is now pointless.

Lastly, yes this is a gear based game. The required sets are needed for the next dungeons or you would die. The gear is leaps and bounds better than the set before. If you walked into a 2nd level dungeon with 1st level gear, you would be smashed to bits. And on top of this, you can't because to unlock the next dungeons requires meeting requirements including having your set.

You have all abilities and different talent builds available to you at the beginning of the game for your chosen class. You may change your talents when in a city.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by syriinx
weird question, because progression is almost non existent in MMOs these days.   they are designed to be done with progression within a month of casual play.   In newer MMOs people are done with progression fast and surprise, retention is poor.

A month is long enough. For me, of course.

 

Sure if you are playing a single player game. MMOs are about long progression. What is the difference  or rushing to the top and sitting there board and playing for months with things to do. If you mean you don't want boring progression I agree. I would love entertaining dungeons at almost every few levels for groups to enjoy.

An MMO isn't a single player game you play casually for a month and then put it down, it should be years worth of fun to build a community and a world.

Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by Nadia

I'm hopeful for EQNL but also wary that it's more hype than substance

I'm not convinced we will see the feature set (on launch at least) that SOE is claiming

They don't actually claim that those things will be in at launch. They always add "in perspective". And I'm okay with it; overly ambitious attempts for implementation is a death sentence to many software products.

 

What I have problems with: they are going to develop EQ:L after launch, work on bugs in EQ:L and, at the same time, work full-time on EQ:N development. I don't believe they have bodies for that, period. So how is it going to actually happen?

I believe they are taking a page out of the open source community book. Having the players to create your content, beta test it all in the guise of a game is brilliant. EQ Next: Landmark is a community project to help build EQ Next. The players will ultimately be testing and refining the things they create. It isn't open source yet the players will be handed the tools to create.

 

 I left WoW during WOTLK when instances become so boring I couldn't stand it. People no longer CC monsters in dungeons, how sad. That is boring gameplay, also the elite monsters in dungeons do not hit hard enough any longer after WOTLK. 

 

People whined that they didn't have any CC, some classes could off tank and MOST classes had some form of CC. Zerging through dungeons isn't why I play games.

 

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5208542341?page=1

 

Quoting a post of a current  WoW player

 

"They were hard because of multiple factors:

- Classes did not have as many tools as they have today. CC wasn't applicable by half classes
- Damage from trash was too high. I remember my mage being oneshotted in Shattered Halls HC from 100% hp from a single melee swing.
- Because there would be multiple such hardhitting mobs per pack, one needed to be cc'ed. CC was also breaking at anything back then, because there was no "smartcasting" to avoid AoE effects hitting cc'ed targets.
- They were tuned high for the gear available till that point in one's progression path.
- Tied to the above, gear inflation wasn't so large back then. Even overgearing 5man heroics with Black Temple gear didn't mean that they could be AoE-fested, though it did help in reducing running time to half.
- They were long, sometimes taking almost 2 hours to complete at relevant gear.

Quite possibly more, I can't remember now"

 CC breaking at anything back then "smart casting" to avoid AoE effects hitting CC'd targets? THE TANK MOVES THE OTHERS AWAY FROM THE CC'd MOBS DUH! WTF are you AOEing elites for anyway?

 

CC wasn't applicable by half classes? WTF?!  IF A CLASS COULDN'T AOE THEY COULD MOST LIKELY OFF TANK. MOST CLASSES HAD FINE CC. I use to play with mages, rogues, warlocks, priest, hunters etc that could CC.

 

Damage from trash was too high, mage being one shotted???!!!!! WTF If you are mage you aren't suppose to be tanking  Stop getting agro, assist properly.

 

I wish there was one game where people  could go play to have some fun engaging content like that of TBC or Vanilla WoW.

mod edits

 

 

 

 

That game is horrible now because they removed all grouping aspects from the game. LOTRO had some fun raids in the beginning but now it is a single player game. I am also tired of hearing about the "grind". MMOs are about the journey, not instant gratification for the attention deficient children. If they gave everyone everything instantly, everyone would just quit.

 
 

I think the game was great personally during Vanilla and TBC. It is ashame MMOs change so much the original game is lost from existence. Vanilla does not exist any longer, it is a different game. Game developers should give people servers that stop at certain expansions. When the person grows bored, they can pay for a transfer to a live server if they choose to.

I gave up on WoW when WOTLK was launched. Once you didn't have to CC in dungeons any longer, zergs lost their appeal. Hell I may even try Pandaria if I had a Vanilla server as well I could play on too. Require the person to stay current with expansions to play on Vanilla if lost of revenue they are afraid of.

 

I could see myself playing Vanilla full time and occasionally playing on Pandaria. Blizzard, you may even entice me to fall in love with the current game.

 

1. Vanilla Server

2. TBC Server

3. WOTLK Server

4. Cataclysm Server

5. Pandaria Server

 

 

Lastly, stop double dipping. Either sub for ALL content of the game or F2P and microtransactions. That was another reason I let go of WoW and didn't look back.

Originally posted by Bogoa2000

Being I am a old man who has played WOW off and on for years including Eveonline and many others. You just don't drop subscription based income and have no means of immediately replacing loss revenue. Bills must get paid including payroll. I think many here like a lot of people do not understand how economics work. 

 

Example: gas station primary income is selling gas (volume) but gas is its lowest profit margin. Soda fountain are their highest profitable margin. 

Example: movies theaters give up 90% of its ticket income to box office. It's profit is at refreshment concessions, 100%. 

Stores have all those little trinkets and magazines around checkout . (Change makers) and high margins. 

 

 

This use to be the case but now everything you just said is wrong. Now it is pure greed. Movie ticket prices have went up dramatically and the food/drinks are still high .. why? Greed. WoW still is producing a huge net profit, they want more because of ... greed. That is what is wrong with our country now days, greed.

The gap between the rich and poor is increasing a dramatic pace because of greed.

Originally posted by tawess

*shrugs shoulders*

 

Could not care less to be honest. Mostly because i have played a good chunk of games that are now so top heavy that leveling up is a honest hell. If Blizzard want to sell XP pots all i can say is good for you, now i might actually bother to level up all the chars that got stuck in bloody awful Outlands.

And honestly it is a win/win situation. Blizzard get more money and people get to level more quickly... As for the people that are angry in this thread... You are always angry so nothing changed there.

 

Actually, by this age of the game i do not really care if they sell gear either. It would ofc not be top teir (that would be counter-productive) but anything else is fair game.

 

But who knows, maybe they make the XP pots tradeable ingame. That would solve the issue completley.

Just bend over and take it, it seems you enjoy it. I personally if I played WoW I would want everything included in the game for the monthly sub price. It is nothing to get excited about, if you feel the leveling is too slow which is laughable, then maybe you should hope for in game xp potions that can be bought with plat or quested for .. NOT purchased with real life money after you are already paying monthly.

 

If people would say no, and vote with their wallets then they may start getting their whole games again for the price they already paid.

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