Originally posted by shadenis

Originally posted by star.buck

Originally posted by shadenis

Sorry but bioware has gone downhill with there last games.

 

BG - great

BG2- awesome

neverwinter nights - great

KOTOR- great

-Jade empire - bad as RPG , good as action game

-Mass effect- Mediocre in my opinion as RPG, decent as action game with lite RPG elements

 

 

 

There's the issue with that train of thought ;) General opinion is vastly different from yours.

 

Go play BG2 , Icewind dale 2  etc. and then let's see how your opinion will differ.

The fact is , side quests are very uninspiring made , rehashed textures, worlds look dull, the main quest you don't really have allot of choices, the side quests don't affect the story at all.

 When you are talking about general opinions, you mean the sites of gamespot and ign?  People who played games like BG ( one of the best RPG all time made by bioware  ) and planescape torment ( black isle )  hall of fame in gamespot best games if i am correct and by most RPG fans considered one of the best RPG's all time.  Don't forget eastern RPG'S like FF.

 

I was comparing mass effect to these and by that, i will call ME a RPG -lite. Not a bad game but not considered a good RPG.

 

Well I think you lose all the cool points you gained with anyone by thinking that Icewind Dale 2 was made by Bioware. Also by mentioning FF in the same paragraph as Planescape: Torment and expecting anyone to take you seriously.

Waterlily, that actually makes me almost physically ill.  I'd say we should all pause our Blizzard hate to hate on SOE, the cancer of the gaming world, but apparently that's not going to happen because of trolls.

In any case, this is the sickest thing I've ever seen.  Item mall retroactively made a central part of a game in a naked grab for cash. 

I hope these dumbasses see mass desubscriptions as a result of this sickness. 

You know I was almost ready to ease off of SOE.  Maybe they knew what they were doing.  Maybe NGE taught them not to screw up.  Maybe they were actually going to try and make future games better.

No.  They're a cancer.  Those screenshots have convinced me.  SOE is a blight upon the MMO community.  

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Sharajat

Originally posted by almerel

Originally posted by Pappy13

I'll start it off.  For me, it has nothing to do with how many hours you play nor how many lvl 70's you have.  It has to do with why you play.  If you play to reach some milestone - like getting the best gear or being the highest ranked PvP player or completing the highest level dungeon, then to me you are hard core.  If on the other hand you play because it's entertainment and anything that you accomplish in the game just comes as a result of having fun, than you are not hard core, your casual.

 

I generally agree with this. I will add that there is another gamer type and that is elitest. Elitest to me are the ppl who want/need to have the best everything. Hardcore is the player who will go balls out but doesn't neccissarily have to have the best everything to do it.  Then ofcourse the casual gamer. I am a casual gamer with Hardcore tendencies :)

I guess I'm an elitist then. I don't play too much, but I deliberately look to maximize my character.  I do math on my builds, I consider the effects of various stats, I angle towards making the best character possible.  

I just enjoy this.  I don't care what other people do, unless they're in a party with me.

 

It's one thing to try to maximize your stats.  It's something else when anything short of the best will not do.

I dunno, I don't really care what gear anyone in my party has or something, unless they have something stupid beyond all reason (I saw, I kid you not, an 80 with a BWL epic recently.  I was like... uh... what?  Needless to say he didn't really end up coming with us).   I'm not sure how to charactarize this.  People who used to laugh if someone didn't have Teir 6, like our friendly '2 warglave' rogue who posts?  I really think they're like 0.5% of the population.

Originally posted by Cabe2323

We don't have anywhere near enough data to suggest what impact lesbian couples have on children.  There haven't been enough couples to study and they haven't been studies for near long enough. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Alan_Rekers

http://www.narth.com/docs/RationaleBasisFinal0405.pdf

(Edit to add link to his research)

As I said he is quite qualified:

George Alan Rekers, M.B.A., Ph.D., Th.D., FAACP is an American Distinguished Professor of Neuropsychiatry & Behavioral Science Emeritus at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine. He received his Ph.D. in human developmental psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles, his Th.D. from the University of South Africa, and his MBA from Southern Wesleyan University.

While Dr. Rekers is considered controversial he is well educated and has done research showing the exact opposite of what your studies showed. 

Which is right?  I have no idea because we don't have enough data to support either. 

 

 

Here is another link showing similar answers to what I have given you:

http://www.aplaceofourown.org/question_detail.php?id=421

Look at the "Expert" answer.

 

http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/fathers2.htm

Here is one last one.  Running out the door to go home from work.

Haha, wow.  I hope you weren't expecting me to read that. 

Campbell and colleagues conducted a 1980 study of family foster care, which found that in
16% of the “worst placements,” the foster parents had psychiatric problems, compared to none of
the parents having psychiatric problems in the “best placements.”14 In their 1984 journal article
entitled, “Correlates of effective foster parenting,” Jordan and Redway similarly concluded that the
characteristics of successful foster parents include “willingness to learn, ability to request and
receive help, warmth, acceptance of children and their behavior, a high tolerance of frustration,
excellent communication skills, and good physical and emotional health.”15 Orme and Buehler’s
2001 review of research related to foster family characteristics that affect children’s social and
emotional adjustment pointed to research indicating that the parent’s mental health is among
“family factors that likely contribute to children’s social and emotional adjustment.”

However, individuals with homosexual behavior have repeatedly been found to have a
significant and substantially higher prevalence of psychiatric disorders and substance abuse in
studies with large probability samples of the adult population. If foster children are placed in homes
with a homosexually-behaving adult, those foster children will be exposed to additional stress with
the impact of the significantly higher rates of psychological disorder (particularly mood disorders),
suicidal ideation, suicide attempt, suicide completion, violence, substance abuse, and HIV/AIDS in
homosexually behaving adults.

Notice the incredible lack of citations on the second paragraph, as well as an incredible lack of study into whether these same issues effect couples in a stable relationship.

The entire thing is basically one big correlation argument.  X is correlated with Y, therefore with no adjustments, we should prohibit X because of Y.  Oddly the same argument totally excludes placement with lower income families, with Pentacostal Christians, with black people, with hispanics, with... you see why we do not apply this logic?  

At absolutely no point does he ever examine any studies of what actually happens to children of homosexual couples - because they kibish all his silly arguments.  The kids are doing fine.

Fallout 3.  I'd vote Mass Effect, except for 2 reasons.  One, Fallout 3 had a lot more important decisions and a more interactive world, even if the plot was weaker.  The ability to interact with a world and decide, on your terms, what happens, where it happens, and where you go is more important to the concept of an RPG for me than a good plot.

The second is Mass Effect released in 2007.  Call me a purist like that. 

I'll go ahead and put down money on 20 year minimum.  I think by 2015 they might have to start merging servers because of declining population, especially in the wake of their predicted 2012-2013 release of their new MMO. 

Shutting down in 2024 is not beyond the realm of possiblity, though I think they might go reduced fee or bundle it with their new MMO, which might keep a minimal population through 2030 or more (possibly lifetime subscription for everyone who paid for 3 or more years of WoW?).  UO is alive 11 years, thinking WoW couldn't go double that is silly.  

I think with their new MMO they'll build specifically with future compatability in mind. 

Originally posted by Scot

So there is only one type of Server on Aion? Not zoned pvp and open pvp servers. No rp servers?

They only plan to have one form of server on the PvP/PvE question.  They'll have the open PvP in the abyss, and then the limited PvP in the form of portals in other areas.  BTW, if you kill an enemy who came from those portals, they said it will send him back home, so griefing will largely be impossible.

I find this model of PvP interesting - it removes the obnoxious griefing aspect, but does keep alive the concept of constant war (there's no /dancing with people of other factions).  

No word on RP/non-RP servers afaik.

Originally posted by almerel

Originally posted by Pappy13

I'll start it off.  For me, it has nothing to do with how many hours you play nor how many lvl 70's you have.  It has to do with why you play.  If you play to reach some milestone - like getting the best gear or being the highest ranked PvP player or completing the highest level dungeon, then to me you are hard core.  If on the other hand you play because it's entertainment and anything that you accomplish in the game just comes as a result of having fun, than you are not hard core, your casual.

 

I generally agree with this. I will add that there is another gamer type and that is elitest. Elitest to me are the ppl who want/need to have the best everything. Hardcore is the player who will go balls out but doesn't neccissarily have to have the best everything to do it.  Then ofcourse the casual gamer. I am a casual gamer with Hardcore tendencies :)

I guess I'm an elitist then. I don't play too much, but I deliberately look to maximize my character.  I do math on my builds, I consider the effects of various stats, I angle towards making the best character possible.  

I just enjoy this.  I don't care what other people do, unless they're in a party with me.

Originally posted by Cabe2323 

First off those studies do not speak about the issue that I was speaking of.  They do not specifically mention anything about Teens, Teen Pregnancy, Teen Sex, or anything else that I was mentioning. 

Secondly I think I will listen to my 4 years of Psychology instead of your "Internet articles".  Everything we learn in psychology states that females who do not learn appropriate male to female relationships and that lack proper male love in their early lives will seek out inappropriate male attention outside of the home. 

This leads to earlier sex, teen pregnancy at higher rates, and ultimately can lead to destructive life choices. 

As I said before this isn't a knock on Lesbian couples as any "Father Figure" that shows approriate relationships with Women and gives a young girl the approriate attention that she needs will work.  (This can be a family member like a grandfather, uncle, etc or a family friend.  It doesn't have to be a biological father). 

This is a fact of human learning and modeling.  Without approriate relationships to model of how men and women interact, a young girl is more likely to forge inapproriate relationships. 

So not sure why you turned around to attack me.  I am sorry if you feel that this is some type of attack on what ever agenda you support. 

I'll believe your 4 years of psychology, after I see good scientific evidence backing them up.  I don't really care if psychology has taught you that females need an early male-to-female relationship in the home, or if they taught you "penis envy" or Jung's "collective unconscious" or any other psychological theory.  A lack of a model of male-female relationships in early childhood may indeed create relationship difficulties down the line.  Or it may not.  Have the studies been adjusted for demographic differences?  Were they studies of 8 people? 

I'm sorry, but I believe nothing without evidence.  Show me the evidence, I'll believe you.  This is not a knock on any beliefs you have, but if your beliefs lack evidence, then you must accept they are just a hypothesis on what may be occurring.   And if I have studies saying one thing, and your speculation saying another, it is no mystery to me what I will believe. 

I am certainly not hypothesizing that your 4 years of education were wrong, incorrect, whatever.  I do believe that the studies that lesbian couples raise healthy, well-adjusted children are numerous, and correct.  I would need significant evidence to alter that belief, since the studies are in agreement, numerous, and have large sample sizes. 

Certainly if studies cannot detect these differences that you are sure exist, this is either a significant knock on the theory, or significant evidence that lesbian couples provide sufficient insight into relationship dynamics that the development of the child is not impacted - i.e. there is nothing fundamentally dynamically different between relationships with a male-female couple and a female-female couple.  Since I've seen enough studies on the impacts of single-parent households, I know which one I'd lean towards. 

Originally posted by Superman0X

Originally posted by Sharajat

Originally posted by Superman0X

Originally posted by abyss610

hasn't blizzard also been talking about adding cash shops too?

 

Yes, Blizzard also added a cash shop with the last expansion.

 

Blizzard would be most surprised to hear this.  Someone needs to tell them about the cash shop they added to the game

 

 

Blizzard already knows about it, so does everyone that got the expansion.. If you have it log on and check the buttons... (this is old news)

Haha.  Not there.  Nice troll attempt, but sadly defeated by absolute ignorance.  2/10, nice try.  Next time try to think a little, and make it a bit more subtle.  Yours was too stupid.  Preferably you should know at least a little about the game you are attempting to troll.  A bit of the terminology.  Also, when referring to things that blatently don't exist, I'd suggest referencing future plans, or things that a friend definitely knows they are implimenting.  Say you have screenshots of a beta build, or have a video, or have seen it. 

Originally posted by Wizardry

My definition of hardcore is staying offline for 5 months ,then logging on to find i have the best player in the game

No seriously ,i would love the idea of staying offline for a year then come back and i have 10 trillion gold,man wouldn't that be an accomplishment?hint hint cough EARTHRISE.

I think of hardcore i think of a diamond,NO not a baseball diamond silly.

Oh sorry we are talking about hardcore pertaining to WOW?umm hmm...you mean the game is unjustifiable without implecating terms such as L33t Raiding,i ownzz j00?

Are people not playing the game because it is fun and does not need any terminolgy associated with it?Remember those 1>50 quests? go fetch me 10 bear skins? ya man those were the fun old days.

Hardcore in wow is when you grab your little dwarf and try to jump one of those wooden[fake looking wood]fences but fail and rap your n..s on the pole,now that is hardcore.

You know, it's funny he even has a troll as his avatar.

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Sharajat

Now we are getting somewhere.  Ok, the hunter.  You don't lay down the trap when you pull.  You lay down the trap well ahead of the pull so that if the mob resists you immediately drop another one.  I don't think I've ever seen a mob resist twice in a row.  The priest NEVER waits for the shackle to break.  You reshackle every 10 to 15 seconds regardless.  It only takes a second and requires very little mana.  Then you still have Paladins that can fear although that's a bit risky if they run too far and reset it, but it works in a pinch if the Hunter or Priest screws it up.  And you don't need 3 CC's you only need 2 because 1 mob is being DPS'd down and your off tank is tanking 1 add while doing double duty by hitting Moroes from time to time so that in case your main tank loses aggro, the off tank picks it up just enough for the main tank to get it back.  You won't need more than 2 healers if the others do their job unless one of the healers is a bit weak.

Yes.  It was a pain in the ass.  I told you I was on shackle duty.  As for the mob being DPSed down, most needed to be tanked at the same time.  Our kill order was usually holy shit (yeah, you could let the priest run around), goddamn shadow dickhead, and then the fury guy (pray you got the prot moron).  Nevermind the obnoxious holy pally cleansing shackle...

You seem to think we never got Moroes down.  No, we cleared Kara.  ZA too.  We never had much success in SSC or TK because we could never get 25 competent people (I actually quit for a while I was so frustrated with trying to get a raid on SSC going).  

I'm just saying it was a shittakular introduction to raiding, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to reevaluate what happened to other guilds who went thro

You got lucky.  If you get bad drops, it's nearly impossible to complete no matter what your gear.  It's a crapshoot.  I've downed Prince maybe 10 or 15 times and at least half the time it took more than once and we had good gear by the time we were farming Prince.

Oh yeah, bad drops are bad drops, but and there's no question we got lucky that first night (I think that kill we had to move... once... maybe twice (it's been a while).  I still maintain the fight was easy.  Phase 1, take a nap.  Phase 2, run in, run out, healers have to pay more attention.  Phase 3, cross fingers, blow cooldowns, and dps like all hell.  

I won't argue with you on the order, it could have been that way and been just fine too, but we never had any more trouble with Moroes than any of those others in the first half of Kara even without the gear.   Curator and beyond we definately had more trouble with if we didn't have the gear.

I still don't get curator.  Once we bitched the DPS out to actually have the damn macro (turned out two of them were convinced they were Captain lightningfingers and could click target (not even tab) we cleared him pretty easy.  Yeah, you needed some gear, but we had gear.  Other guilds told us it was a long, hard battle to clear it.  We met him for the first time on our second raid night of the week, we had him down next reset.  He wasn't that hard. 

I misunderstood what you said.  When you said "everything from Moreos to frikkin Nightbane easier than downing Moroes without epics".  I thought you meant everything in the instance, not just till you hit Nightbane.  We actually rarely did Nightbane in order, we almost always waited till last to do him because he was such a pain.  I thnk that is where we got off on the wrong track.  I thought you were saying that Moroes was the toughest in Kara.  My bad.

Yeah, sorry.  Nightbane was tougher, no ifs, ands, or buts.  It wasn't even gear, that fight was just TOUGH.  I still maintain that Nightbane was the proper final boss of the instance, Prince was just Russian Roulette.  

Well maybe the reasons we ran Kara were different from yours.  We didn't run Kara to teach people HOW to raid, most of them were already used to doing MC or Onyxia or AQ20 or something that came way before Kara.   Rather we ran Kara with people that didn't have the gear for raiding at lvl 70.  We would take 7 or 8 with decent gear and then maybe 2 or 3 with nothing but greens and gear them up in Kara.  And we didn't have just 11-14 members, we had 30 or 40, so we would run 2 or 3 Kara's lead by 2 or 3 different people.  Everyone loved going to Kara because of the badges so even if you didn't need any gear it was still fun and you got something out of it.  Let's just say we agree to disagree.

Um, we had to teach people how to raid.  We unfortunately only had people who could Raid Ony, MC, and AQ 20.  We learned what most of us had suspected - half the raid was dead from the neck up during most raids (actually we learned this on Razorgore... on razorgore... on razorgore... gods almighty).  We had two Kara groups, only one of us was lead by competent people, and one of them was lead by a self-rightous dickhole, so we were downing Curator and Aran (yeah, we got both same night) while they were wiping on Moroes.  Then they split us up to stop the tension so we didn't have A group and B group and I got to go help the B people with moroes because I was the best holy priest and could shackle, and their healers were about as useful as a sack of bricks.  

So then A group could no longer progress past Aran, because some people COULDN'T STAY STILL IN FLAME WREATH.  Once the raid leader in group A started punting anyone who wiped the raid twice on flame wreath (this was controversial because our guild had a strict 'help eachother out, no one can say anything bad about anyone' policy, which kind of breaks down when our screens are exploding in WTF FLAME WREATH) that got better.  Meanwhile I was leading the other raid, while arguing with the dick raid leader who was absolutely convinced he could do Moroes (hint: They had been there 3 weeks).  I actually, somehow, got them past Curator.  Our stopping point turned out to be Illhoof, for no apparent reason, until I worked out that I was the only person who knew how to switch targets out of our 3 healers, and that therefore I had been doing every bit of non-tank healing in every encounter except for curator where the druid had been trying to throw hots around. I still lack any explanation for this. 

Then I informed the other raid leader that unless he got me the hell out of there I would personally tell each and every person in that raid exactly what I thought of them.  My leaving resulted in them being unable to clear Curator (though they somehow got Moroes down after 4 wipes, I blame black magic).  This lead to another hissy fit, and about 8 people leaving the guild.  

About a month after this point we somehow had enough geared people to down Gruul and lurch our way into SSC (strangely, eliminating the other raid leader and his pals sped up progression significantly), where I promptly learned we had not eliminated enough deadweight, as I sat in the water and watched 15 people similtaniously go flying about 4000 yards.   Eventually, after watching our hilarious performance on that fight (protip: Not actually that funny) I decided I had better things to do with my time, like bowling, or watching paint dry.  

Rejoined about a two months before WotLK released, and I am now with a different guild.  Got to at least see some Hyjal, some BT (not much BT).  I was hilariously undergeared, but a friend in the guild vouched for me (she knew me from my old guild).  We had a guild we were 'allied with' and we could do both instances (or at least could after the nerf, I think they were stuck on some encounter before Illidan pre-nerf).   We too are all friends.  And if one of our friends has had too much to drink, or needs some rest, and can't follow simple instructions, we suggest he gets some extra rest.  So far, we've had two members quit, but about 10 more join, and we're enjoying ourselves quite a lot in Naxx.  We also raid two nights a week, and we damn near have the place cleared.  No, I don't have 18 warglaves and all the PvP gear or whatever that other poser (oops, I meant poster) who  plays a rogue has.  

 

Originally posted by Superman0X

Originally posted by abyss610

hasn't blizzard also been talking about adding cash shops too?

 

Yes, Blizzard also added a cash shop with the last expansion.

Blizzard would be most surprised to hear this.  Someone needs to tell them about the cash shop they added to the game

Originally posted by Somniferous

Originally posted by Mazer14

Realistically:

DF: Most potential to be a good game but with most potential to flat-out fail

Aion: Korea grindfest (BUT YOU CAN FLY!)

Simply put, as of now DF is 10x as interesting and exciting TO ME than anything Aion is promising. I may give Aion a try in hopes it may surprise me but I just don't see anything aside from pretty graphics in this game.

Yes, subjective opinion. Deal with it. I feel like a tard for even reading this thread.

 

Darkfall is interesting because it's a long shot, and it's different.

Aion is a gauranteed success, but boring. There are tons of people that like to play Asian grinders, and they flock to the next one with pretty graphics.

Game may be many things, but a game with in-game quest cutscenes where you can hit max level in less than 2 weeks if you are playing hardcore is not a 'grinder.' 

Originally posted by Zindaihas

Originally posted by Cabe2323

Originally posted by gnomexxx

Originally posted by Ampallang

Its been awhile since I was reading on the topic of child mental health but I recall that those children missing a father had a much greater incidence of criminal childhoods, poor grades and the like.  The lesbian couples may be in for more than they bargained for with children.

 

Actually, the studies I have seen have shown kids coming from lesbian couples to turn out just fine compared to traditional parents.

It seems that generally speaking, the only kids really having problems these days are kids from single parent households.

 

Girls without a father figure (Notice "Father Figure" doesn't have to be their direct father but does need to be a male figure) are more likely to seek out male attention at a younger age and also in a riskier fashion.  They are more likely to partake in life choices that leads to more unsavory lifestyles (Stripping, Porn, Prostitution, etc). 

As I said it doesn't have to be their actual father but there does need to be a healthy male figure in their lifes.  They need to see healthy male and female relationships to learn how to build those relationships themselves.  Lesbian Partners don't quite cut it in that regard (no matter how "Masculine" one partner might be). 

 

That is true.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070928215535.htm

www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20051012/study-same-sex-parents-raise-well-adjusted-kids

You'll excuse me if I find your value of 'true' questionable.  Science doesn't seem to be saying the same thing.  Could be reality's well known liberal bias kicking in.

Of course you're not the only one who finds facts objectionable.

www.samesexmarriage.ca/advocacy/PDH090507.htm

So consider yourself in good company - others have found facts quite inconvienent in pursuit of the truth as well!

 Hype?  Bioware, bioware, bioware.  The last time a big name company moved into the MMO business it was... Blizzard.  

Hell yeah, there's some hype.

Originally posted by sortec

Hmm... Searching through SOE online support, I find limited information regarding this.  I do know, that there were special exchange servers in which they allowed for people to buy items with real cash.  I think there are only 2 out of the entire server list that allow this.

 

However, this seems a bit different.  The exchange server allowed you to buy items from players for real money.  This seems to allow you to buy items direct from SOE.  But what they dont tell you is if this "feature" is only on the exchange enabled servers or on all servers.

 

This will be interesting to follow....

 

Only if you play SOE games.  I avoid those like the plague.    

Haha, but remember, SOE is still better than Blizzard folks.

Originally posted by Tyrranosaur

I'm enjoying it, but then, I have been playing since February 2005 and only have 1 level 70, and I decided to wait a month before getting WotLK, which helped reduce competitive crowds for slow respawns.

Bottom line, I'm a casual player, and while I am still annoyed that I will probably never see the inside of most dungeons due to my time constraints (I have 4-6 hours a week at most to play, and to really see all of that you need 4-6 hours a day, obviously) I'm finding the expansion to be a lot of fun. But again, I haven't burned out on it as badly as many others have...

My wife, who has 4 level 70's and spent approximately 2/3rd of 2006/2007 playing this game is already done with WotLK and sick of the whole game. So.....I guess she got her time to money value?

 

Actually, they've really made it much easier to do a dungeon in an hour or two.  Most can be done in an hour or less now.  There is just no Shadow Labs or Botanica that has endless waves of trash and nonsense.  Most are around the length of Black Morass or Mechnar.

They just really cut down on the trash.  The boss fights are still mostly difficult, but it's often 3-5 trash pulls between bosses now.  7-10 is REALLY pushing it.  There's nowhere like shadow labs where it's 15 trash pulls to first boss, 10 to next boss, 10 to next boss, and 10 to final boss.  In fact one instance you walk out of a boss room straight into another boss fight.  

It's pretty cool.  The less trash makes the pulls much more interesting, and the instances themselves can now be seen much quicker.   There's still a few that take a while (Oculus is a bitch, until you learn it, period, the end) but overall I'd say that you should venture into a few to test the waters, so to speak.

Yes, if your wife is a hardcore player she's in trouble, and when I was in college I admit I would have been frustrated as hell with WotLK (they've taken out all the filler that used to make instances take forever) but now that I have a job, I'm finding it very easy to play WotLK for a few hours each night and on the weekend and still maintain decent progress.  

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Sharajat

Sure, but what was harder than moroes?  I mean you had to CC/DPS down 3 adds, while 2 tanking the boss, and dealing with that goddamn soft-enrage garrotte.  Yes, easy sauce if everyone is heroic geared or something, but if you're entering it a month or two after TBC came out, actually quite difficult.

Next challenge is... caretaker?  Hah.  Nowhere close to as tough, if you can do Moroes, you can do that easy.  Netherspite, Prince, Illhoof, all as easy as Moroes or easier (assuming you have better, gear, which is pretty much a given).  Nightbane was just a bitch because I was a healer, and it was one of those screw the healer fights. 

 

CC/DPS should not be a problem since you have so many different options and garotte can be removed several different ways although most are cooldowns so if they get it again sometimes it can't be removed, but a good healer can easily keep someone with garotte up.  2 Tanking Moroes was a bit hard since most tanks aren't used to it, but more than anything it's communication.  Did you use Ventrilo?  If you don't use voice-chat, then yes I could see where it would be a nightmare, but with Ventrilo, Moroes was one of the easier fights in my opinion.  Mana should not be a problem.  Healing should not be a problem as long as you keep everything CC'd that is suppose to be CC'd.  Moroes is not a problem in that he doesn't do anything really nasty unless he get's loose from the 2 tanks.

Nightbane was tougher.  You had to have a REAL tank for Nightbane or he'd be killed before you could heal him.  Even then it was tricky because he would land on you and crush you if you didn't have shield block up.  I usually would drink 2 or 3 mana pots for that fight alone.   Prince was tougher although it was a crapshoot depending on how the mobs landed, if you got lucky it was a piece of cake, unlucky and you are screwed.  Netherspite was tougher if everyone didn't know their rotations in the beams.  A couple times we had Netherspite down to about 20% and he'd be healed back to nearly full health because someone wasn't in their beam.

You're a healer, that's probably why you see things the way you do because garotte is a pain if people don't know how to remove it.  Stoneform will remove it.  Iceblock will remove it.  Bubble will remove it.  I think there are others, but can't recall at the moment.  And yes I've been a healer as well as a DPS in Kara.  I don't know what your group was doing wrong, but if Moroes was the toughest boss for you, then you were definately doing something wrong.  I can't remember wiping on Moroes more than a couple times.  Hell for awhile you could even reset Moroes if things started out badly by just running out of the room.  We took people with greens on all the time into Kara and wouldn't normally have a problem up to maybe Curator.

Yeah, you needed THREE CCs to work.  How much fun was it first time one ran into a hunter trap, and trap resisted?  Hunter ended up kiting the damn thing around the room a few times.  And the shackle?  Shackles broke all the goddamn time, LONG before their timer was up (I did shackle duty on that, and sometimes it would break in 10-15 seconds).  That means you had at a minimum 3 competent CC and 2 competent tanks, and 2 good healers (or 3 competent ones, if you were 3 healering it). 

Yes we used Vent, no, I have no idea what you're babbling on about.  Prince was harder?  We downed prince the first night we met him.  Took us two wipes to learn the fight, then he was farm status (except for butt meteor locations, those were funny). 

And we knew what we were doing.  Moroes was just cruel to guilds learning raiding.  I have no idea why he wasn't AFTER Opera (an amazing, fun, great event that would have been a good way to introduce people to the fun parts of raiding).  Should have been Attunman, Maiden, Opera, Moroes, Caretaker, then the last half.  Having most people encounter Moroes second was just silly. 

And yes, I said it was all easier than Moroes UNTIL Nightbane, if you were paying attention.  Nightbane was quite a bit harder than Moroes, and obviously the REAL raids had much harder fights than that.  

My point was that Kara was a shit introduction to raiding.  Second hardest encounter to learn a non-optional second encounter (at least Netherspite, which could also be wiped by one moron (and was also easier than Moroes) was optional), and then the kicker.  You have 11-14 people you've been raiding with, made friends with, joked with in Vent, and oh hey, now you're thrown under a bus because you need to recruit a good 15 more people and gear them up to go to SSC and TK.  Idiotic.  Sure, the hardcore raiders easily cleared Kara then started real raids, but as an introduction?  Fail.  Pure fail.