Originally posted by DragonOak

Originally posted by Snorf

well just because you havent run into any bullies in LOTRO means there are none? I have yet to find a single PUG instance in Lotro where it doesnt happen.

Actually I see you as one of the bullies, and my time playing EQ I can remember a stunt or two you pulled there with those very same idealistic attitudes of how self important you are.  Perhaps since you left the LoTRO, and many of those of like mind left also, we don't see that bully attitude much anymore.  Some may even say that there is a correlation between the bullies and the exodus of Snorf and others?  You tend to portray those very same attitudes on these forums.  Anyone that enjoys this game in constantly belittled for playing "a dumbed down version of WoW" or a "single player" MMO as you like to say.  The point is these people enjoy the game, stop belittling them for actually having fun.  And stop taking it out on the game and the people that play it just because some minstrel ruined you day that one time, OMGZ!!

Well, you make it look like you know me while you surely dont, i havent played a puller in EQ and hardly ever pulled except fun groups where i was with friends. So - stop telling the forum readers lies that you know me. And i am for sure not known as a "bully" rofl. Quite the opposite would be true.

 

And that MMO players are mostly introverted, socially limited individuals is just your own strange reality. Probably taken from yourself /shrug.

Ok, just a little review of psychology.  There are two types of people, extroverted and introverted.  Do you know what those terms mean?  Since this definition of personalities only has two types, it is not calling either better or worse than the other.  And again you use the term socially limited, which is NOT the term I used.  Socially isolated is the term is used.  So back to the review, introverted individuals tend to be shy, less outgoing, and less involved in typical social encounter, and thus making them socially isolated.  On the flip side of the personality type of the extroverted, we find a person that actually seeks out social interaction, which is mainly focused on face to face encounters, not gaming.  Now if you would like I would be happy to find a study or two that indicate most gamers are of the introverted personality.  So therefore, it is not about my "own strange reality" it is about reality.  Your denial of even the most basic terms of personality studies in the field of psychology just go to show your own personal lacking in the expertise of social exchanges among groups, thus implying you are a bully.

So you had a summer course in psychology... not bad - maybe try another 10 semesters before writing such nonsense. Socially isolated is even a worse insult than socially limited. So by rephrasing your bullshit i actually did you a favor. Now you embarrassed yourself again.

The garbage about the sleeper i never got your point in that. What exactly is your problem with the sleeper encounter? its just an encounter. Which i never played since my guild never focused on him.

My problem is that if a game, albeit EQ or LoTRO, does NOT fit your vision it must suck.  And to continually point out that anyone that enjoys any game outside of your vision must be lacking in skill, aptitude, or knowledge is your failing, not mine.

And what exactly does that have to do with the sleeper encounter? And i never said lotro sucks - i say its not what tolkines story deserved. An easy mode mainstream soap opera wannabe MMO with no depths.

Reading this forum i see alot of very mature discussions going on, where LOTRO failed expectations and where it scored.

Except for you continual chiding of anyone that actually enjoys a game that you do NOT play or have NOT played in some time.

True i havent played much LOTRO but i watch my nieche playing it, she is 9 and has fun - totaly fine with me. I dont tell her "ooohooo this is a boring game" whats your point again?

Why you so sensitive about your game being critisised is beyond me.

I am sensitive about anyone that attempts to derail a consumers enjoyment of a product based on intimidations and focus on negative remarks towards the product and the consumer that enjoys said product.  Again implying that you are a bully.

Lol read the forums, whenever someone writes LOTRO is weak in this or that aspect you jump in and start a holy crusade to defend your precious game. The holy crusading bully here is you man.

 

Do you enjoy embarassing yourself as a fanboy?

Just because I enjoy something you don't makes me embarrassing myself as a fanboy?  So I guess it would be more relevant if I spent my time on the EQ boards bashing that game in order to legitimize my enjoyment of LoTRO?  But then again that would just make me a "hater" wouldn't it?  So in turn, do you enjoy embarrASSing yourself as a HATER?

Look, i have written down pro's and con's of LOTRO that i see. From an experienced point of view. To judge a product you need to find pro's and con's. Again, all you did was bashing my con's and writing an embarrassing onesided list of pro's which makes it clear you lack the neutral view but only see it as a fanboy.

This game has disappointed alot of players who demanded it to be more than just the other MMOs out there. Of course these people want to discuss why - so why dont you let them?

On the other hand it has pleased a LOT (number 2 in the US market) of players that are tired of the same ole same ole grind of those other "more demanding" MMO's out there.  And for people that want to discuss their disappointment in the game, I have no objections in the slightest as long as they do it without putting down the players that DO enjoy the game.  And that is why I tend to call out certain Jack Asses on these boards, because it is NOT about discussing it is about criticizing those that do enjoy something they do not.

 This other hand is by 2/3rd people who either only know WoW or not any other MMO. These people would love pac-man online too if you write tolkien above it. 10 years ago i would have praised lotro as the breaktrhough in gaming. But with the knowledge that almost every other MMO out there has more gameplay depths, more teamplay and more complexity this makes LOTRO look like a wannabe game with good graphics. And there are many threads (you all know them, you crusade in them) where people wonder why LOTRO is no fun for them - and the answer is: because they are used to better gameplay and miss the thrill and intensity of games with deoths.

So keep trying to call me bully, its just rubbish. Keep crying like a baby everytime someone says LOTRO lacks this or that. Its your own forum reputation you ruin.

snorf

 

well just because you havent run into any bullies in LOTRO means there are none? I have yet to find a single PUG instance in Lotro where it doesnt happen.

And that MMO players are mostly introverted, socially limited individuals is just your own strange reality. Probably taken from yourself /shrug.

The garbage about the sleeper i never got your point in that. What exactly is your problem with the sleeper encounter? its just an encounter. Which i never played since my guild never focused on him.

Reading this forum i see alot of very mature discussions going on, where LOTRO failed expectations and where it scored. Why you so sensitive about your game being critisised is beyond me. Do you enjoy embarassing yourself as a fanboy? This game has disappointed alot of players who demanded it to be more than just the other MMOs out there. Of course these people want to discuss why - so why dont you let them?

snorf

What DragonOak describes is a completely different phenomenon and happens in every game. In LOTRO it seems even worse to meet the bullies who know it all better than you, because so many people loose their temper over people that dont know thei chars group ability that they try to step forward and lead the damn fellowship to get the job done.

This was usually easy to avoid as the so called bullies or elitists have just been avoided or, if they where good at what they did, gathered a bunch of players around them to start a raiding guild with the focus on beating whatever the game has on the plate.

Yet it has nothing to do with the minstrel who had not grouped in 40 levels and 5 people suddenly depend on his group skills. It is not BECAUSE he is an idiot it is because the game allowed him to get this far without training his group abilities.

The end result is the same. Frustrated fellowships. -> more solo players -> less group skills in the community.

And wether someone plays golf or an MMO is their own business, i cant follow the fanboy there at all. Are you saying MMO players are social incompetent isolists per definition, or what did you try to say with that pile of crap above? 

Snorf

When WoW came out it was the most solo friendly and fastest fantasy MMO on the shelves.

It seems that Turbine knots some of the success WoW had to this architecture.

So they made again the most solo friendly and fastest MMO on the shelves and wait for the success.

In LOTRO you dont have to group up to 40+ even there its alot of solo content now with new books released.

The funny part is that more solo content causes more people who dont have a clue about their group skills, ruining PUG fellowships regularly and causing the victims there to demand more solo content again because in PUG's they find so many idiots who dont know their class'es group abilities. So people suffering from this effect become soloers often. Joining the club in the long run.

 Actually LOTRO isnt a MMO but a MSO. (Massive Singleplayer Onlinegame)

Snorf

Originally posted by madjimbob

Hi propably the most ask question on the froums.  I'm playing Eve online atm and loving it, but I wouldn't mind a game that was a little faster pased and a fantacy setting just to brake up the quiet times in Eve.

Like WoW but got board as it was only about improving your character, there wasn't much more to it than that.  Which has always been a proplem with blizzard RPG's Diablo was the same and the same simptom is seen in WoW. 

Like DnD online but hated the Eberon setting, it should have been The Forgotten Realms setting. The PvP sucked along with the clostrapoic feel of the game world lots of quests but again not much more to do than just improve your character.

Loved Neocron but don't think it's running anymore, and if it was must be very dated.

Loved Star Wars Galexcies till they messed it up by making Jedi a starter class and balancing it with other classes. Loved the idea of building your own settlements and equipment production etc. but  all the grinding to lvl got a little boaring after a while.

Basicly I want more from a game than just trying to make the biggest, hardest, character I can, to then go fighting in arena style battles. That gets lame very quickly and games like WoW, DnD, Guild Wars when boilded down ammount to that.

So with a bit of background on what I liked and didn't like would I like LoTR online.

From the very little info you give us its almost impossible to answer your initial question.

LOTRO might work for you, as its alot faster than EVE. In LOTRO you progress your character too more or less - its a simplified WoW clone from that point of view. The difference is the epic book quests that you can unlock - maybe you will like that.

Else i'd suggest Tabula Rasa. SciFi again but not like Eve.

Tfy the trial and enjoy ;)

Snorf

Originally posted by Lonestryder

Good tidings, all.  After playing EQ/EQ2 for 3 years, and after a particularly frustrating evening of grouping with people who have no idea how to play their classes, I logged out, deleted all my characters (lvl 80 dirge - bard - and one 73 assassin) and cancelled my subscription.

So now I am looking for another MMO.

Here are some questions I have before downloading the trial and making a go at it.

Classes: I have always played a bard in RPGs and MMOs alike (EQ1, 2, Vanguard and Oblivion). Which class is most similar to that?  I'm more interested in subtle classes that add to the group and are challenging to master (but all the better for it).

Depth: I am looking for a game with depth.  Depth in gameplay, in class ability, in exploration, in tradeskilling, etc.

Diversity: I like diversity between the classes - enough said.

Story and lore: I am a HUGE Tolkien fan and enjoyed reading the books.  The literature is some of my favority of all time.  That said, I also enjoy a game that has an overarching purpose, a story that drives the gameplay and gives meaning to my existence.

Challenge: I like challenging gameplay.  I enjoy pitting myself against difficult encounters and a harsh environment. I am goal oriented and like to "work" for what I have/want.

Immersion: I want to be immersed.  I'm a professional by day, but a gamer by night.  I like to get lost in the MMO world, have fun with friends, and love grouping up to go against the challenging content to progress my character.

Class abilities: I like to play a class that is difficult to master.  I take pride in taking a difficult class and making it shine.  I tend to be a quick study, and enjoy taking the extra time to learn the little things that make a class shine - especially in groups.

Fun: This is subjective, of course.  I love to have fun (who doesn't?).  However, fun for me is getting involved in the game and the story and working through it with like-minded people.

That pretty much covers it.  My hope is that this game can provide that for me, and that the good people on these boards will chime in with responses that will give me the real scoop.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this.  I look forward to reading the responses.

Lonestryder

Hehe, i had a smile on my face when i read your posting with your expectations...

To me it seems to be the opposite of LOTRO.

Examples:

Diversity: Compared to Vanguard and EQ2 there is no such thing in LOTRO. You have 7 classes which can be modified very little by activating certain traits. In 90% of the cases you will not notice a difference at all tho between two level 50s of class X and if you notice a difference its probably gear not traits.

Challenge:

LOTRO is the least challenging MMO out there. It is not designed as E-Sport game but as a middle earth sight seeing tour.

A Class that is difficult to Master?

Nothing is difficult to master in LOTRO. There are a few grinds that take a while, and a couple of raids / instances that require a little  teamwork - thats it.

Immersion...

hmmm this is difficult to answer:

To me personally there is no immersion in LOTRO as i take nada influence to the story of middle earth at all.  Whatever my main does, my alt does it too. (Talking about the book quests)

There is no theme, no plot, no story running in the background that i feel part of. I unlock a few movie sequences for certain mouseclicks is all.

You dont change the frontline with the darkforces either if you win small battles or loose them. The world stays static.

BUT:

I know some people feel involved into this sort of interactive story telling - and feel part of the story. They can ignore better that this story is not really happening than i can. So: Try it and see for yourself if you feel involved or not.

Anyway: These are all my thoughts and they must not be yours.

I suggest you try it out (trial?) for yourself.

Keep in mind 2 things:

a) LOTRO is for casuals, from your description you seem to spend alot of time in your MMO's and this can kill LOTRO for you quick. So reduce the time.

b) Use your own imagination to create missing depths. Perhaps try real roleplaying. The game depths is simplified to the extreme for casual gamers and playability of casuals.

If you manage to find a nice kinship and good people, you can have alot of fun in LOTRO - you need to adept your playstyle tho. Good luck.

Snorf

PS: I think the human only class is closest to what you are looking for it is the group supporting class in lotro. (Duno the english name, in german its Hauptmann and it can only be played as human).

Have fun and enjoy ;)

pro's and con's are very individual choices here, as many have to do with taste and playstyle.

here are my pro's:

- nice graphics.

- extremely easy to learn UI. (mostly)

- tolkien background.

- nice atmosphere in many places, i like how the screen turns darker when you are near a bad ass enemy.

- funny musik system.

- The offer of an LTA.

- very casual friendly.

- runs ok on normal computers in high settings.

- crafting results can compete with loot.

- friendly and most of the time nice community.

- fast and friendly customer support.

Here are my con's:

- extremely flat learning curve. Once you understood the easy UI you just sail to 50.

- rotten animations, as good as the world graphics are, the animations suck. Destroys alot of the nice atmosphere.

- easy mode MMO. Almost no true riddles.

- (almost) No Character diversity - everyone is a carbon copy of his/her neighbour with same class/level.

- not enough classes.

- no epic raids with 80+ players involved.

- no underwater world.

- no group crafting.

- (almost) no consequences for bad playstyle.

- "story-in-a-can" system, butchering the epic background story into chunks of story for everyone.

- almost no level cap content.

- extremely simplified crafting system.

- pv(m)p is a joke.

- inconsequent travel system. (no magic but wtf is fast travel?, a horse on lightspeed?)

- no innovative ideas compared to old school MMO's - nothing new here. (Which was the biggest disappointment for me, since the old MMO's where good but are old now!)

- 100% linear gameplay - you dont choose where you go in this game, the game chooses where it wants you. Playing an alt feels 100% identical.

- no dependant economy. By now almost everyone who has more than 1 houer per week to play has at least 3 grandmaster professions - many will have alot more spread over all their alts.

- no fear factor. You dont have to worry that anything you do gets you into trouble other than maybe a 5 minutes walk back to the frontline.

- EU players are second class players. (No Lore book access, no direct contact to the turbine devs. more expensive monthly fee)

Bottom Line

For me its a nice and fluffy game for a while. It's not enough of a game to become a hobby. Best played with a second or third MMO. So you can switch between serious and fluffy gaming.

In many aspects it was a pure disappointment since it simplified well balanced game mechanics from other games to a degree where it is not funny anymore.

To me LOTRO is a wannabe MMO that gets boring quick unless you find a good kinship. With fun people every game is fun. Even chess or marble games. This fun factor has nothing to do with the game tho.

Snorf

Originally posted by DragonOak

 

Originally posted by dragonace

 

Agree with you on EQ.

 

 

Heh,  I remember you needed a group to even do Crushbone... actually that little hill just outside of Crushbone. (I think that was the name).   If you played a magic-using character... being grouped was a good thing from level 1.   Since you had to sit down with that book in your face to regen the mana... it wasn't very safe to do solo.

 

So yeah, EQ was definitely group centered when it first came out.   But then they went overboard with the raiding... then they went the opposite direction and went overboard with the soloing.   So yeah, it's not very group centered now.   However, I think that DragonOak was making the case for when it first came out, or at least it's first couple of years.   I played it exclusively from launch to Luclin...but then I stopped having fun... so went searching for a new MMO. 

 

LOL, I remember the hill outside Kelethin, I got lost so many times just trying to run. Thanks for bringing back those memories, those were some good times.

I stopped playing after the release after DoN, the Neriak forest revamp and the instances where you got to relive Naggy raids, but actually got to play as Nagefen.  Those were a blast and they AA experience was great.  People were doing pick up groups again, for me it was bringing life back into the game.  But then the "I did it the hard way and walked to school in the snow crowd" started screaming the experience was too good and they needed to nerf the experience.  And of course these games have this tendency to listen to the vocal few over the MANY that was enjoying the new content and having fun again.  And the nerf came so I quit and never looked back.  Never even logged on for old times sake, and vowed to never play an SOE game again.

And now people celebrate the games where everything is handed on a silver plate, wondering how people can complain that there is no challange at all.

Wondering why people ask why to raid if the same reward can be gained by logging in one of their Grandmaster alts and just craft a similar item. Debating with those who miss the teamplay of MMO's where not the individual but the team achieved something. All Goddamn elitists with no life, right?

Solo play is not what most people want who know the fascination of achieving something in a good team. Solo play is what those want who dont know it better. LOTRO is the result of listening to the whiners of other games not the majority. And no LOTRO is NOT a success, with this license it could have had millions of subscriptions in the first year - with this world famouse license it could have taken the throne from WoW in fantasy MMO

 but instead, where is it? not far ahead of games with totally unknown names and for sure very far away from its first million subscribers. So dont tell me LOTRO did the right thing, commercially seen LOTRO is a disaster if you compare expectable potential with real outcome.

LOTRO is a niche game, the "hand it on a silver plate niche".

snorf

LOTRO is most solo friendly already, i called it MSOG (Massiv Single Player Online Game)  when i saw it first.

And the reason is by design, there is no big plot you take part of (or influence on) but you just unlock some video sequences of a story not really happening.

It is a middle earth theme park designed to reach the masses as easy as possible. No teamwork required to progress and the few exceptions where teamplay IS required cause problems because people are simply not used to need someone else to reach their "heroic goals" in middle earth.

Go to their official forums and read the discussions about "need/greed" looting - its obvious to me that the core player base of lotro does not understand the concept of teamplay in an MMO.

Bottom line?

Yes give this game more solo content!

Actually remove all team content!

Automise the auction hall and let people group with their own alts!

Add a yahoo or msn chat window to the UI so people can chat with each other while playing their single player game!

Once all this is done: Unplug the servers and grant the license to a dev team that wants to write middle earth online.

Snorf

Originally posted by Saurfenion

My first real mmorpg was Dark Age of Camelot which i started back in 1999 (damn that feels like yesterday) and was my introduction to the MMORPG genre.. In the end i think i played that game for about 2 years without any breaks.. But eventually got bored of PvPing and needed something more PvE orientated..

After some game hopping I ended up at Horizons: Empire of Istaria which I again played for about 1.5 year.. Sadly enough the company behind it was one big mess.. And after 1.5 year of fun I gave up and saw no future anymore for the game..

After game hopping heavily I eventually returned to DAoC which i played again for about half a year, but in the end it just wasnt al that anymore (compared to what it was in my memories)..

Eventually I ended up playing World of Warcraft for about 1 to 1.5 year until I got really sick and tired of the endless grinding.. I loved 1 - 50.. But after 50+ MC runs and seeing the game added nothing more then more and more grinds and big raids.. I left it, because it felt like a job instead of a game I played to relax..

Again I started to game hop heavily because really nothing could keep my intrest again.. Everything felt unfinished, unpolished or just not my type of game..

And finally I played Dungeons and Dragons Online from Beta up until now, which is already again over more then 2 years, although I did have some breaks from that game like when i played LOTRO..

During my game hopping sessions I have had subscriptions on: Asheron's Call 2, Everquest 2, Final Fantasy XI, Lotro, Lineage II, Ryzom, Shadowbane and Tabula Rasa.. But most of them only for 2 or 3 months..

Ps. My girlfriend only played WoW (and kept playing when i left for DDO) until we both tried out LOTRO .. And lately she is back playing RPGs on her console..

Pss. Up until WoW i could discribe my game style as a hardcore grinder trying to get  the best gear and stuff before anyone else.. But after that my irl changed so much i really didnt have the time nor the intrest in that way of playing anymore.. This was also one of the reasons i love and loved DDO so much.. I could logon play abit and log off again.. And could still compete and play the best I could without having to feel the grind like i did i games like WoW..

Go back to LOTRO yes - but use it like you used to play DDO - to log in here and then or maybe find a kinship that does events together twice a week or such - just limit the time you spend there deliberatly.

Give Vanguard a try - you havent listed it above and maybe you know it from a past game hopping period but that game has advanced good - there are still bugs but its very polished compared to what it was 12 months back.

I think the LOTRO + Vanguard combo could satisfy both your casual relaxing demands (LOTRO) and your high complexity grinding demands (Vanguard).  Without getting burned out in any of them two to quick. Of course you could just as well wait for the next big MMO's to release but lets be honest, they will need their time to grow too.

I suggest this combo because you seemed to have liked Horizons alot which i think is pretty similar to Vanguard. Whereas i put DDO more into the corner with LOTRO.

I for myself enjoy the Tabula Rasa Vanguard combo at the moment, Tabula Rasa is my relaxing game for when i only have 1 houer to play and Vanguard is to dive into a world for a complete saturday or sunday in a 10 houer session. (sadly dont often have the time for that hehe)

snorf

Originally posted by Saurfenion

Yes I know about that update.. Problem was that our "main" characters wasted all the lvl40+ content  (that was available back then) by the time they brought out Evendim.. So it had no use to go there.. But had nothing to do around the low 40's either.. So i just made a new fresh character to start from lvl 1 again ;) so we didnt had this problem anymore.. But got tired of trying to finish every deed...

And although its perhaps not needed.. Im the type of player that tries to get everything possible (no mather how small it is)..

Ofcourse there will be new content now so im just running the patcher on both pcs :P and prolly will see tomorrow if im enjoying it again.. Like i did back in beta.. I guess the lack of other mmorpgs makes me wanna try it again ^^..

Did you GF wanna play this because its LOTR or is she fascinated by Fantasy genre in generall?

Did you ever try a SciFi MMO?  

Its hard to answer your initial question without further information, from what you gave us i'd say stay away from it since you seem to "seriously" want to play an MMO  in what some would call "hardcore style" - its a game designed for casuals. Dont forget that.

Snorf

Everquest - the Queen of MMO's.

Remember when i sold banded armor in Kelethin convincing people that it was better than the heavy bronce stuff they got from Unrest.

Remember when my guild almost lost everybodies corpses in the Plane of fear.

I started with my best friend who played an Enchantress and I tried a Cleric. She kept casting Mesmerize and i kept wacking the mobs. She said: duno but this spell has no effect at all!  (later she was one of the best crowd controllers on the server)

Everquest created a real world, in no other oninge game has it felt so differently to start as another race. Starting a dwarf or a human or a barbarian REALLY was different in the beginning. Halas, Qeynos, Kelethin, Kaladim, Neriak, Freeport, Ackanon - they where all places with their own flair.

Almost all races had their own language, it was never used much as a gameplay feature but it was fun to use for roleplaying.  The whole game took advantage of being an ONLINE game: Player interaction was encouraged: selling buffs, meeting in the bazaar tunnel, trading crafting items asking for ports here and there, asking for clarity, finding someone to res your sorry corpse... And downtime, yes - downtime in which you chatted and made friends.

And what we get today?

We are FORCED to play a stupid introduction tutorial the EXACT SAME WAY everyone does. And after that we are pushed to the main town, quest givers lead us the way. To make sure we wont miss any out they are markered on the map. It is so sad that games like WoW and LOTRO completely destroyed the genre for me. Simplifying the amazing complexity of games like Everquest or DAoC to a degree that isnt funny anymore. Less and less diversity, less and less freedom of playstyle, more and more tethered to how someone else wants you to play the game.

oh well, the memories :) of the good old days when games where made by  artists not an industry.

Originally posted by bstuart

offical forums are one of the reasons you pay for a game there is no excuse for nc soft not to have them for TR the only reason is that they know they produced a shoddy game and dont want to see the coustomers complaining about it

plus starr long's  massive arrogent Ego wont allow him to see that people are complaining about the game and its not all joy and sunshine like the lies he constantly puts out

about TR:

I only tried the TR beta and i will wait to buy it for a while because it felt pretty unfinished to me. Guess next winter will be a good time to have a look at it again. But its definitly not a bad product and will get its chance in a while from me.