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All Posts by Boneserino

All Posts by Boneserino

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609 posts found

Crafting is a tough issue for devs, I think, almost comparable to the issue of implementing PvP in a game.    The reason I say this is because many players do not have a desire to do crafting in games just as many do not wish to PvP.  If you create a crafting heavy game, what you end up with is EvE essentially.    A bit of a niche game.


Fallen Earth was the game that changed my insight.   I just remember how funny it was when people learned that gear did not drop and also when you told them, sorry there is no shop that sells guns.   Many were completely shocked.    I remember we had one kid in our guild who simply would not craft and was constantly begging for stuff.   Luckily we liked him, so he got what he needed.   But only when we felt like giving it to him. 


Still most people crafted so the economy consisted mainly of rare mats.   And the brilliance of that game was that the rare ones were in the PvP zones.   So right there you create meaning for PvP.    Very similar to EvE as well I might say.   And I prefer the idea of PvP for resources rather than territory.    I think it balances things because you don't have some trying to control everything, just what they need.  


I honestly think this is what is really missing in most MMO's today.   You can't just have PvP and fight over a castle just to say woohoo!! we own the castle!   Owning that castle has to have some meaning,  such that it provides something you need and you must fight to get it.    Crafters are the suppliers,  Fighteres are the gatherers,  and since you need both to create things in the game you now have balance.   I think it may even reduce the ganking effect, since PK'ing for sport would would be a waste of time, when there are other more important goals in the game.


In any case, it seems most of todays games have gotten away from both of these, and gone the the straight , level, and kill for loot, route.  nothing in those games seems to have any meaning, other than waiting for the ding and the next piece of gear to drop.  No wonder we get bored of them so fast.


Crafting, economy and PvP all in balance and I think you have the game most people would love to play.

Originally posted by Foomerang


Originally posted by svandy
I know exactly what I want -
For reference, when I say a real MMO I mean:
  • Meaningful group play, typically achieved through "the trinity" Open world, minimal if any instancing to include dungeons Actual travel time, no just porting all over the damn place Varied progression goals after max level that are MEANINGFUL (could list ideas forever). In fact, if they could do away with "levels" entirely that would be great.


Might as well say you want exactly a good game. Saying things like "meaningful" "varied", or "minimal" actually doesn't tell me anything. You say you could go on forever about this stuff but its so vague whats the point?

I think folks like yourself have it boiled down to a science with what you don't like. But when it comes to what you do like or want, its so random and doesn't really mean anything. According to your criteria, your dream mmo is WoW with no teleports and no instances. That is about as broad a stroke as you can make.

But I'm sure you can pontificate endlessly about all the little things you hate about every mmo that is out right now.

I've seen posters here dismiss an entire game because the grass was waving in unison instead of randomly. Then turn around and say "I want to be immersed." I see that crap all the time.

Bitter vets that make post after venom filled post, lashing out at everyone, blaming them for the decayed state of the genre. And then in the same breath, yearn for community and social tools in their games. Like some magical game system is going to force them to no longer be a mud slinging, jaded gamer.

Most of the problems I see people having with mmos isnt the actual game, its themselves.

Think about your true mmo epiphany, that mmorpg which opened your eyes to possibilities and made you feel like you were part of something bigger than just a video game. Whats changed since then? Your expectations. Period. You had none when you went into your first mmo all wide eyed and noobish.

Imagine if you carried your 1000 page tome of required features into that first mmo experience. You wouldve uninstalled in a day. Bug ridden, laggy, down for maintenance all the time, static npcs, barely any content, low rez, horribly imbalanced, dead landscapes, terrible animations, with clunky combat.




OMG! exactly what I wanted to say only I couldn't have said it half as well.


Completely agree!  


Least grindy, most fun does not sound like an MMO at all!


At least that is what I hear on these forums. 


Isn't it a MOBA that you are looking for?

I am not the "adrenaline junkie"  type of player.     And damn, that vid gave me a headache after 20 seconds with all that jerking around of the camera.     Nauseating.....


You should have checked Greenreens profile before you posted that.   She has some interesting comments on Darkfall.

I've played every sub game in the list released that had the features I wanted and none of them fit.


So the games had all the features you wanted but still didn't fit?   That probably means that once you had those featrues you started looking  for other things the games didn't have.    That plus you limit your choices by merely looking at games with a specific payment model.


I mean you pretty much set yourself up to fail, didn't you.   Why are you surprised?


Anyway isn't AA your game?  I know it is supposed to be F2P but it sounds like it has the PvP crowd excited. 


And I am in your boat sort of.   I haven't found any games I would subscribe to either.



Apraxis and Waterlilly have the right idea.  


The bar analogy is a good one.   The difference between an MMO and a single player game is obviously the people.   If you go to a bar and lots of your friends are there and you have a good time drinking , talking shit and basically doing the same thing every time. then of course you will keep coming back to that bar. 


But if your friends say, hey Bar X is cooler than Y, I am going over there, then chances are you will either stop going to X or head over to Y where your friends are.


Part of this is game design and part of it just human nature now, I think.   People are just less social online now,  more interested in getting the gear, than in how they got the gear.   Most people will only group, because they need to, and not just for the comraderie of doing something together.   I don't think forced grouping is therefore the answer.


I like Apraxis idea of less people in a world.   A smaller community I think makes it less likely that people will become asshats, because in a small community you are likely be singled out pretty fast.


Also I just think games need to create worlds where people actually want to do things with other people.  Like bars.   Give them good atmosphere and good friends and they will stay as long as both these things are there.


And PvP has nothing to do with any of this.   That is a whole 'nother animal.


The only WoW I played was the free trial, where I think you could level up to 20 or something.   And frankly that was all the WoW I needed.   It was a fun experience, but I kept shaking my head and thinking the whole time,  "why is this game so popular??"


If you had played all the games that came after WoW first, and then went and played WoW, you would call it "just another all the games that came after it clone"


The game was popular simply because it was popular.     In other words, you played it because everybody else you knew played it also.   And that made it hella fun.    But as a game WoW is and was no better and no worse than many of the games that came after it.


Everyone that played it just burned up their enthusiam for MMO's, when they realized  the sad fact that no other game would ever have that level of popularity again. 


And thats where we are today.

Originally posted by rojoArcueid
Originally posted by Torvaldr
  • Monthly Sub - I knew my game clock was ticking and that put a lot of incentive on playing this game whether I felt like it or not. It's not the money but the fact that I'm renting a time slick and it feels like I'm wasting it if I don't take advantage of that. Thus my other games got pushed to the side. I don't like that setup. I want to game in the world I want when I want.

Based on this statement i would be more inclined to subscribe to mmos if i could freeze my subscription manually when i know i wont be playing, knowing that my remaining paid time will be there waiting for me to manually resume it again on my account.


This needs to become a thing, IMO.

The sub only guys still refuse to acknowledge this type of behaviour exists.   In fact they try to make the argument that subs are more likely to retain players.  I think the opposite is more of a truth.


I agree with you rojo, the sub model needs to change into more of a pay as you play model versus just a monthly fee.  Then this player would likely still be playing the game despite the faults he mentioned.

Money is only part of the reason here..     Sub games make money, as do F2P games.

The question as always  is, which payment model is going to be best financially for  any particualr MMO.

I agree there are still plenty of people that love the sub payment model.   It has some advantages, mainly the one that each player has access to everything, hence level playing field.   That matters a lot to some people.


But to others and I would say this is the bigger majority,  people like to have choices.   I would like to try this game and not have to pay for it, is a big one.   Oh and I might like to buy a few things that make me look cooler or give me better game features.   Point is, the consumer has more choices with F2P and generally they like that.

With sub it is pay your 15 bucks and take it or leave it.   Thats where the sub problem comes in.  Most people will say, I got to max level and now have nothing to do, your game sucks , I am not going to pay anymore.  

Unfortunately despite what the vocal minority keeps saying about gladly paying 100 bucks a month for a good MMO, I just don't see that happening.     I think companies and devolopers know that in these times, they will be lucky to hold a customer to single game for 6 months, and year would be rare.  They need to constantly be getting new people into games because they know very few will hang around for years.   And a sub payment model tends to discourage people from trying, because of the big upfront cost.

I am against gear drops altogether.

All gear in an MMO should be crafted.   Otherwise what is the point of crafting?   And  where is the economy? 

All people do is run around camping  mobs that drop gear.  Rinse and repeat.

But hey thats what keeps everybody happy, chasing that shiny bauble on a stick.

Why would a PvE player play this game?


And it is not ganking.  It is PvP.    If you do not like then you do not have to play it.

Originally posted by Thornrage

The Repopulation does not have quest hubs in the WoW or Lotro sense. You are mailed your quests and you can turn them down. Also you can pick which type of quests will be mailed to you.

There are crafting stations (the crafting in this game is insane) and vendors will buy what you harvest off the local wildlife.

You can virtually be any kind of person you want to be in the game. Even non-combat characters such as an entertainer or an engineer.

You can mix DNA of different wild life and create something new.

There are no levels. It is a skill-based game. The more you do it, the better you get.

A lot of potential with The Repopulation

Tell us about it when there is an actual game.

I agree with you Distopia.   When I played FE we had a small but very fun guild and that is what made the entire game fun.  


I think what newer MMO's meed is something that gives other players the feeling that they need each other, and not necessarily just to complete dungeons. 


Building to strive for.  Special gear that requires  the help of different professions or gatherers.  That sort of thing.   And of course ongoing content that pushes you to further enhance your character.

 But of course that still can't last forever.  Is there anything gameplay wise that could hold your attention for years despite having maxed out all else out in the game?  

I definitely feel this would have to be group content, because it is a truth that MMO's are best when people who have never met come together and become friends in a game, simply through gameplay itself.

Originally posted by Distopia
IF you never experienced it what games like SWG had is hard to put into words, every day was a new experience at "end-game".

I never did experience it unfortunately, ( I was playing E and B and when it ended, heard all the bad stuff about SWG) but I think I know what you are saying.   Fallen Earth was a bit like that for me,  I would have loved to have tried SWG in hindsight.

Originally posted by Slackker

Generally "end game" is raid content, although not everyone cares about raiding. I still believe EverQuest was the best when it comes to that, but is obviously dated now. Kunark was good, Velious was amazing, and I enjoyed POP flagging. Can't say much after those, aside from Discord was a disaster.

For me, raiding is pointless now. Most raiding guilds want you to talk to them in vent, something I reaaaally don't want to do - I have a hard enough time putting up with some people on-screen, I don't need to add voices to annoy me further.

My end-game at this point in life is different. Content requiring a couple groups is large enough for me, and I find myself gravitating to 3-4 person encounters that are designed for full groups. I find challenges in different ways, rather than raids.

As for what raiding SHOULD be? I'm not sure the content itself is the most important part. Just make it a little challenging, and try to develop encounters where skill matters over numbers. Raiding is mostly about the guild you're in, though. Some of my fondest raid moments were with good people who may not have been the best players. Wiping a few times, even if you don't win that go-around, can be more fun than crushing a raid boss with a group of skilled players who are more prone to prickish behavior.

Edit to add: I think longevity is a problem because there are too many options. When the genre was in its infancy most players either loved the game they were playing, or had already tried the few other options and decided their game was the best fit - even if they didn't love it. Options are good, but they can also water things down.

Nice post. 

I agree, the few times I tried raiding some was fun, some was not , but generally it was a very time consuming process.   And most of that time was not made up for in fun.    I also agree that I am not into the whole  vent communication thing.   Nothing against those that use it, but that is sort of an immersion breaker in a way for me too.

When I play an MMO it is mostly about experiencing new things.   I really have no desire to continuously run the same dungeon just to get a slightly better piece of gear.

Is this all there is to endgame in an MMO?

Originally posted by MacShwangus
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by MacShwangus
I could. Both of these games made mob exp give a miniscule fixed amount to discourage people from doing it. I'd prefer to grind in a game that didn't intentionally make it boring. 

Yes that is the definition of grind.   Thank you Captain Obvious!



Actually mobs in eq gave scaling exp depending on how hard they were. Which meant the harder the mob, the more exp it gave. So it pushed you towards more challenging mobs and zones. A lot were downright brutal and required a full group. It wasn't designed to be boring.

ESO on the other hand...90% of the mobs are slightly weaker than you. There's no need to group for it. No incentive to fight challenging mobs as the exp difference is barely noticeable. You can plow through them without a notion of being killed. Not very exciting.

Not sure why people only see the latter.

Well then, you be sure to let Zeno know exactly what the right level of exp for grinding is, because I am sure they never gave it much thought. 


Hmm do you think the fact that it is a sub game might have anything to do with this?   Or perhaps, just the fact that most Elder Scrolls games are like this? 


Its a mystery why the level of grind was not set exactly to your liking.  Clearly a huge oversight on Zenimax part!

Just curious because longevity seems to be a big deal with many posters here.

And what should endgame content be?

I need educating because when I max a character I generally find that is end game for me.   What more should I be looking for?

Originally posted by Giffen
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by reeereee
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by MacShwangus

I was hoping for something like Everquest. Where questing didn't account for 90% of the pve experience. I can't argue with mmo's being "heavily and traditionally quest based" though. That's true all the way back to the first mmo, World of Warcraft.

Oh, so you want a game that is grind only! 


Well why didn't you say so?


That is every MMO. 

I dunno, though gw2 did a good job of having no quests and not feeling like a grind.

Peeps!  My point is if you don't like quests then grind.

If you don't like grind then quest.


And if you don't like option 1 or 2,  then don't play MMO's.

Most quest hub based games force you to quest by lowering the mob XP so much that you can't advance at a reasonable rate without following the canned "content" that the devs put in via quests.  Many even hard lock zones behind quest-walls where you can't advance without completing some storyline quest.

Thanks again Captain Obvious.

Originally posted by OminousDawn
Originally posted by Reizla
Originally posted by battlesam
Here's my 2c from a long time DAoC, WoW, WAR player.

Stopped reading there...

ESO is totally different than those 3 you name. ESO was build to be a PvE MMO all around questing, while the ones you played are made with PvP in mind.


Judging by his post, he clearly believes its the other way around.

These PvP'ers will be the death of MMORPG's.  They don't understand them, and as such, do nothing but complain about them.

It's so bad, I had to make a sig about it.

Well that is a flame post if I have ever seen one, but I totally agree.


To them it is all about killing the other guy and not much else matters.

Originally posted by MacShwangus
I could. Both of these games made mob exp give a miniscule fixed amount to discourage people from doing it. I'd prefer to grind in a game that didn't intentionally make it boring. 

Yes that is the definition of grind.   Thank you Captain Obvious!



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