Originally posted by Shaman4Left

Originally posted by Gabby-air

People probably gonna flame me but i have to say, wow had one of the best rogue class.

 

WoW does have the best rogue class, dont be afraid to say it, who cares with these Jacknobs think. Their in their moms basements sexual releaving them selves to anime porn any way.

If you play a rogue in WOW, you'll be even more hated (in game) than a Wow player on these forums...

If that doesn't strike a bell ... :)))

Hi, as Blizzard said they didn't want to launch in a prolonged weekend (Thanksgiving - family business), it is rather clear that patch 3.3 will be launched next week.

Expect the usual fuzz the first few days ... but I wonder who will level a last time a new class/character before Cata will be launched...

I am expecting a LOT of the new automated PUG play in this patch. Doing dungeons in the clustered servers, so I think of leveling a tank class from the very start. I also want a lazy ranged dps huntard to play in the raids later on, but I'll probably wait for that one to have a human hunter (although I'll miss out the new end game in Cata in that case - damned dilemma's).

I guess some will also level a new class typical for the leveling dungeons/and or/ Battlegrounds.

I guess it will take a few weeks before everyone will become accustomed to the new mechanics and let's see how popular the new LFG tool will be with the cross servers. As I play almost exclusively on the Blackout BG clusters (EU), I am lucky: 17 servers would give a several hundred people within a 5 level bracket.

So who else wants to see all the landscape a last time before that dragon destroys most of it?

Originally posted by aleos

 WoW may be a successful money making program for blizzard but it has managed to halt the progress of interactive virtual worlds for pre WoW gamers such as myself. Only time will tell when MMO devs find their balls and make a game worthy of being played again. Once they realize that World of Warcraft brought absolutely nothing to the table maybe they will. 

Just how silly these words look when you focus in on that "... managed to halt the prgress of interactive virtual worlds ...".

Just one little example....

So WHICH game exaclty had phasing before WOW (non instanced, non pre loading real time world changes for good or temporarely according to what you do in game ?).

So WHICH game did bring in at least a 20 miilion new MMORPG players into the field all by itself?

Your AoC wouldn't even have  got development money without the return on investment Blizzard showed.

Oh and BTW I played already Ultima OFF line 25 years ago, so don't tell me those programs had ANYTHING over WOW in game play value and huge different playing options.

It is NOT because you ran around a closed up fake 2D/3D world with inivisible walls everywhere and ... a mine in it, with a vendor ....you are " in a progress to interactive virtual worlds ...", because of LACK of designer's views back then and LACK of gameplay.

It is the same as saying Pong indeed was responsible for Mario and Donky Kong.

Originally posted by peteski123

OP is obviously a WOW fan who thinks WOW was the be all and end all of mmo's..  wow just copied other MMo's at the time so what difference does it make if wow was around or not?

You should all crawl on your bare knees for 10 miles just to be thankful WOW brought MUCH needed developpers money to this PC industry which was quite quickly dying in 2004/2005.

You want to view what the MMORPG niche like market looked like if Blizzard's WOW hadn't exist ?

----> http://www.grognard.com/

A Nice niche market like the board and the "pure" PC wargames market.

A market where 10K units sold is considered a hit and where the amateurish programming style is still King.

Oh very lively alright but with http://www.hpssims.com/  and http://www.matrixgames.com/

just shows the state this industry WOULD have been in without the MILLIONS of new MMO players brought in by Blizzard

Originally posted by Katilla

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Fantastic Coffee.

There is more animation in that dog than in the complete animated avatars of Aoc, War and Aion combined. :))

Does it also bark and yell "Hi-YAK" ?

:)))

 

maybe you should pay more attention to the avatars in Aion then....

Do they more than yell "Hi-YAK" perhaps ?

Originally posted by Shaman4Left

The game it`s self should not be designed for soloing, mmorpgs are all about communites and playing with others, I think mmorpgs should have solo classes, like in EQ had solo classes such as the necromancer/beastmaster etc, but the game it`s self was not designed for solo. If people want to solo there should be class options for them to do so, but developers should never design game content with soloing in mind.

Define soloing.

Selling and buying on an Auction House is enough for some people to game in MMORPG's.

F R E E D O M of choice in playing options.

Go solo is just one of the many things to chose from.

Perhaps take a course in game design first.

These posters on mmorpg have lost about ALL reality check in gaming.

Like I said WOW not only was a blessing for MMORPG investment money and the complete MMORPG industry.

It was a MUCH needed boost to support the dying platform of PC gaming as a whole.

The big companies NO longer suppported the PC platform to launch their big franchises.

WHY ?

Simple the average HIT on the PC was down to 200K, while consoles sell the same titiles up into the millions.

Reason: piracy: in a MASSIVE way.

Out of the blue came WOW who brought subscription based games from 100/200K to mulitple MILLIONS, bringing in the ONLY game that brought over 1 billion dollars yearly revenu ever ... for multiple years.

So at least it proved to INVESTORS not ALL gamers were gaming on consoles and there WAS a market for PC gaming into the MILLIONS (just like consoles).

----- > For those calling me names: here are some very interesting questions . -----

----> How MANY copies you think would have been sold of >AoC, War, Aion if WOW hadn't existed?

----> What would have happened to the PC gaming if Blizzard changed its policy and ... had launched WOW  purely on consoles ?

---- >Gaming without PC's impossible ? >>>> LAUGHS: Look at Japan, the PC platform is down to peanuts over there.

Blizzard didn't even find it worth to invest in the Japan PC market  and still didn't launch WOW over there. Meaning the PC gaming market in Japan has become so small it is no longer worth of launching WOW. Think about that for a second...

I am amazed how silly this site has become when even mentioning WOW's succes and its influence on the INVESTMENT market on the PC asa valid gaming platform.

Your COD is only still there on the PC, tx to Blizzard. if it wasn't for Blizzard who proved there was STILL money making on the PC gaming platform .... those games would only be available on consoles.

Read the PC gaming magazines the last 4 years and how they complained the PC gaming platform was more and more neglected as a valid alternative.

---- > Imagine how much WORSE the situation would have been if WOW hadn't brought in MILLIONS of western PAYING PC gamers.

Originally posted by cyress8

 

Holy crap, this post here should clearly show zorndorf is off his rocker. He truly believes no one would invest in PC gaming if it wasn't for WoW even though we had great games releasing and still in development at that time. Hell, he believes mmo games had a 100% effect on genres that aren't even MMO games.

 

Numurous articles in PC game magazines mention this massive effect WOW had on PC development money.

WOW has a revenu of ... 1.2 billion dollars on a yearly base.

Not one other game - EVEN on cross platforms comes even close.

The last one that broke ALL records on the multi platform was CoD: Modern War 2, which could assemble around 500 million dollars in it is launching week, ....

... but WOW does add 1.2 billion ... each year ... on just ONE platform : the PC (well incl 3% Mac's).

---- > PC development was in CLEAR crisis since 2003. No one was even interested in investing in these pirated copied things until Blizzard showed an incredible gold mine was there with PC based mmorpg's with MILIONS and MILLIONS of active subscriptions.

Even 3 years ago, the PC version of games were postponed BEHIND the schedule of consoles. Only in the last 2 years we see the PC gets a decent treatment again.

You should ask yourself HOW much would be invested in a pirated industry without those 1.2 billion revenus Wow brought in the PC game industry.

Fantastic Coffee.

There is more animation in that dog than in the complete animated avatars of Aoc, War and Aion combined. :))

Does it also bark and yell "Hi-YAK" ?

:)))

Originally posted by Goronian

Originally posted by Teala

What if questions are moot.  It didn't happen that way so there is no sense in talking about it.   It is a waste of time and effort.

It's a good excercis for your gray matter and an interesting point to discuss.

What is moot is going into threads and simply posting, that the thread is moot, thus wasting your time.

The answer to the OP is very easy and very frightening.

... Simply there wouldn't be anymore PC games (except free to play browser goodies) since 2006 ...

Blizzard single handedly helped survive the much plagued and pirated software of PC gaming.

You would all be playing on consoles.

Was the massive money making of WOW that important in the history of PC gaming?

YES, it clearly was. No one would invest any further in PC gaming because of its pirated status as of 2005/2006. Forget the intrest in MMO's these days: you would ALL be playing Mario#27 as a fantastic liniair jumping game :)))

And btw UO was a TERRIBLE game as ... a game, so it would NEVER have gottten further than a handful of players anyway so that wouldn't have helped the PC gaming at all.

I think the ST Lore is one of the best Lores to implement in present day technology limits  of an mmorpg.

Why ?

- "Beam me up Scotty" is the TV series alternative for ... creating instanced jumping to other "places". No long travels to other places etc ...

- The limited "plastic" adventure rooms where ST is known for allows for the Cryptic engine (seen in CoH and CO) to "make it so" without much hastle.

- The "away teams" that always included the captain and main heroes themselves are cut and paste stuff for the heroic acts seen in MMO's. In fact thinking of it ST the TV series lacks ANY credibitlity already in its core design. BUT its suits an MMO perfectly.

- Hyper speed between solar systems allow (again) for instanced MMO designed zones (great for graphics loading).

- ST is the first modern designed MMO where space combat/life and planet combat/life will be combined.

- Expansions can include as much new planets and solar systems as you can dream up, each with their own graphics even.

So Cryptic has ALL the cards to own the adventurous SF stuff at the moment.

No one doubts that if Blizzard would have owned these rights, ST would be the next big MMO with multiple millions of players.

So I am very curious to play it.

At least it isn't a Korean copycat.

Patch 3.3 will come probably next week.

Here is the update why: http://www.wow.com/2009/11/23/patch-3-3-not-released-tomorrow-zarhym-hates-cranberries-and-az/

They don't want to publish such a huge and important patch in the week of a long Holliday weekend in the US.

Which means it will publish next week for sure.

Oh and don't mind the troll above. Here is a nice short overview by good ol' Coffee http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/259228/WoW-33-in-pictures-featuresbossesuiweaponsevents.html

Enough content and new mechanics (cross server dungeons) to make it through the winter :)))

Originally posted by Xasapis

You're assuming too much I'm afraid.

First of all, they never claimed that they achieved 2nd place, let alone brag about it. They stated that they aim for it, big difference.

Secondly, I hope you realise that you are as much to blame as the people that started the 3.5M rumour. Your constant repeating of this number only adds up to its circulation, at least on this site. Bottom line, if you don't believe it to be true, stop advertising it.

Third, their financial records are their own. They operate outside the US, hence are not governed by the same restrictions like other US firms. They are probably governed by different restrictions however. In any case, Turbine hasn't released any subscription numbers, as far as I know, and noone jumped onto their necks to blame them for that. It's their prerogative to disclose or not any numbers.

Lastly, you should at some point remove the tinfoil hat regarding the xfire numbers and finally admit that xfire can predict trends (with some level of inaccuracy), but not absolute numbers.

First: When you annouce the "AIM for 2nd place"  in your world wide press conference at launch and ... do NOT confirm officialy with numbers and dates in audited documents you simply ADMIT you coudn't achieve the goals.

Second: The fact they launched the game based on never confirmed rumours shows a policy of this Korean based company.

Third: Sorry but their financial records are NOT their own. They are a Korean publicly stock traded company which means they can NOT operate as they please. Apparently they are not bound to strict western based NY stock laws, which shows in their spreading of sales "assumptions" on their web reports (which can not even be confirmed as "true").

You are right about Xfire. It shows trends but not absolute numbers.... THESE DAYS.  

But this trend was only started when Xfire began selling games through their website (around 6 weeks ago). Of course NCSoft jumped on it as first MMO to sell through Xfire and so games not sold through Xfire can no longer be considered on an equal base , so the Xfire "hitparade" became a charade in the last weeks. This does NOT distract from the fact that only Aion of ALL the recently launched games had a clear over representation on Xfire (NOT viewed with the other recently launched MMO's like Lotro, AoC, War, Tr etc). Proof of overrepresentation is still there to view if you compare the Aion Xfire number with games (and confirmed subs) like Eve.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Yes, seems like the pissing contest moved from the 1st place to 2nd place. Some people have to play the most popular game it seems, regardless on whether they enjoy it or not.

That's what happens when you have a company like NCSoft that wants to BRAG about being the second most played MMORPG and doens't deliver ANY proof in their official statements (like their competitors do).

When I call a press conference to announce a (2nd) record subscription base, I better beat and confirm.

3.5 M Asians: NEVER confirmed just a rumour. Second most played mmorpg: NEVER confirmed just a rumour.

And in between a Q report with non-audited and "assumptions" that aren't even supposed to be ...correct and IF correct (sic) they could ... be wrong and not worthy of basing anything upon it .(SEE the references of my post above).

WOW. Amazing some people still try to defend this kind of NCSoft attitude. Curious how this kind of behaviour is showing in game too. Bots anyone ?

----> This kind of behaviour will backfire in the long run on NCsoft: for instance I will be very interested in their 4rd Q financial results (even WITH the non audited stuff in it).

Tampering with the Aion Xfire loggings is one thing: AUDITED financial info is another story for their future.

Originally posted by arenasb

Pretty nice. As someone else said, not sure if I came back for this if I could stomach leveling something from level 1 again.

That will be a real challenge when you can :

- Level by doing PvP in the BG's.

- Level in a complete new redone Azeroth 1 to 60.

- Level by doing dungeons in the new cross server dungeon mechanism.

So allowing you to group or solo level in 24/7 in whatever mood you"re in.

With at the end a nice new Guild leveling system, a brand new rated competition in the BG's (à la Arena) and a new end game "Path of Titans " leveling system.

Jesus that must be a real touch choice to make ....

Originally posted by Raztor

Originally posted by tryklon

 Here you go, some numbers like WoW fans like. Ofc, they will always refute them in relation to Aion, but gladly accept them in respect to WoW... =P

 

The market share: www.xfire.com/genre/mmo/massively_multiplayer_online/

The MMOData studies: users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/1m-12m.png

 

(since Runescape is a browser game XFire cant acknoledge it ofc)

This bit made me laugh from MMOData:

 

"I estimated Aion Asia numbers on 2,5m as NCSoft does not want to confirm the 3,5m and they do not release subscription numbers anymore in their quarterly reports."

 

Yea... very reliable. Sorry, but I was talking about official data. NSoft released the sales figure earlier (somewhere around 700 or 800k  or something like that). That is the only official thing we can take for certain. Until the Xfire numbers get stable for Aion, it's too early to use that as an indicator of subs. 

 

For now, EvE remains the second most popular MMO in the Western market. When we get a subs number from Asia (a sub is an account that has been paid and played for in the last 30 days), then we can have a better idea of of where we stand.

 

Of course, because simply the Aion fans can't produce ANY evidence of official subscriptions for Aion. Not in the East and certainly not in the West.

1. NCoft organised a BIG press conference a few days before the Aion West launch, announcing they would go for that second place in western MMO land.

2. Clearly the target was set as only few months before the makers of EVE announced they had 300K subscriptions.

3. We are now 10 weeks after the launch of Aion West .... and not even a communication of NCSoft concerning subscriptions.

4. Surely with a sign that 65% of XFire players already no longer play the game (coming from 81K playing time to 28K playing time on Xfire), Aion is not holding its players in the first 2 months after launch. And as Aion is SOLD through Xfire (and not games like WOW, EVE, WAR), the top Xfire charts between these games are worthless these days for Aion.

5. Surely with a .... 88th place for Aion today on amazon.com for .... PC(!!!) games Aion is dead on dealer shelves. You really have to track this game now DEEP into those selling charts.

So by lack of ANY official subscription numbers of NCsoft , Aion West clearly failed to obtain those 301 K+ subscribers to beat EVE.

Case solved.:

EVE is still by far the 2nd most played MMO in the western (lucrative subs) market.

-----------

Oh and btw. Blizzard confirmed officialy its 11.5 M and 11.6 M player base in 2009, TWICE this year. In May on their first Q report of 2009, quoting Mike Morhaim himself in the official transcript of the press conference and a second time in June with the presentattion of the 2010 Guiness book of records presentation.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/136299-activision-blizzard-q1-2009-earnings-call-transcript?page=6 (can be downloaded in audio on the Actvision Blizzard website too).

That's what makes the difference between confirmed official AUDITED WESTERN stock rated company reports and press conferences and a Korean firm that drives on rumoured free internet café playing sessions.

Here is what NCsoft said in little text when they "announced those famous Aion box sales" ...

"The financial results for 3Q of 2009 have been prepared on an un-audited basis,and may be subject to change during independent auditing process.

Some of the information and data in the material have been prepared based on assumptions. (sic)

There can be no assurance that the assumptions used by NCSOFT are correct and even if they are (sic)..., that the effect of such assumptions on NCSOFT’s business and results of operations will be as projected.

Therefore, NCSOFT will not be responsible for individual investment decisions based solely on this material.
? Consolidated subsidiaries : NC Interactive(100%), NC Europe(100%), NC Japan(60%), NC Taiwan(85%).
2"

----

------ > I think if the obove text was to be published in a New York stock rated company report, they would have the Feds on their necks within 14 days for spreading false information...

That's the difference between western stock rated companies and Eastern ones....

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

 i would say EVE also if were just talking about the west. I'm sure Aion had a pretty good start but its lost a lot of players after the free month was up. I don't think Aion will suffer as bad as WAR and AoC, but I highly doubt it will keep good numbers once TERA comes out. 

 

heh aion still well above anything else in the west my friend. The game itself isn't broken like war and aoc were.

Proof ?

Where are those official paid subscription numbers of Aion in the East ????

Where are those official subscription numbers of Aion world wide??

Nowhere to be seen

And ... even 2 months after the western launch NCsoft doesn't publish any subs numbers in the West. AoC did, War did, WOW did 2 monts after launch ....

As for Xfire .... They SELL the damned thing througn Xfire, so those stats are worthless now.

14NA/18EU servers (not even full) means they are WAY BELOW the Korean number of players (400K on 42 servers)...

NCSoft being quiet on the subject means .... they didn't reach that 2nd place in the west.

Not by a long shot.

Aion fans: PROVE it or shut up the lying .

oh and btw : 300K subs for EVE WAS announced officialy....this year. Just like the 11.5 million of WOW. Official.

So where is that official NCSoft statement of subscribers ?:)))

Originally posted by Precusor

WoW didn't bring anything new to the MMO world.

How about 100  web pages of new things.

Let's start with phasing: Non instanced, non preloading of world changes. In both forms  - temporarely and forever.

You'll already need a full page to describe this dual technique.

Originally posted by Xasapis

I'm going to dare speculate on how NCsoft could pull this off. First of all, the game is based on cryengine 1, although a modified version. Lets say that after NCsoft saw that the game was a financial success in the west, decided to invest more money on the engine (due also to the threats from FF upcoming MMO and Tera) and purchase either cryengine 2 or modules that allow the improved graphics. I could be wrong, but I think that modifying a graphics engine should take less time than building it from the ground up.

Of course this whole thing could just be a huge hoax, cooked up to retain subscriptions. But I guess I'm still optimistic towards the gender and prefer the bright instead of the dark version of this story. Besides, what does it matter if the video will become a reality or not in the future? It's not a reality now and people should be playing what entertains them now, not what might entertain them in the future. My opinion of course.

First: You ARE talking about a company which couldn't even write their own protection program ... Right ?

Secondly: WHO says so they are "succesful in the west". 970K "sold units" to what ? players, not a chance because they sell to retail in their bookkeeping.

......Here let me help you what they WROTE about their succesful Western launch in the small words in their financial report....

I quote :

"The financial results for 3Q of 2009 have been prepared on an un-audited basis,and may be subject to change during independent auditing process.

Some of the information and data in the material have been prepared based on assumptions.

There can be no assurance that the assumptions used by NCSOFT are correct and even if they are, that the effect of such assumptions on NCSOFT’s business and results of operations will be as projected.

Therefore, NCSOFT will not be responsible for individual investment decisions based solely on this material.
? Consolidated subsidiaries : NC Interactive(100%), NC Europe(100%), NC Japan(60%), NC Taiwan(85%).
2

So which part says Aion is succesful in the West ? Assumptions ? or the 14US/18EU half filled servers these days and the out of top 70 Amazon PC sales charts ...

Where are those western subscriber numbers btw ... the game is out for two months now.

Originally posted by Xasapis

It is a personal preference of course, but for me Aion and LOTRO stand out as my top favorite MMOs at this point in time.

Emphasis on "personal preference" and "this point in time".

Then, frankly, you are not even honest with yourself.

Gaming options don't even matter apparently. Future of MMO's in the hands of a Korean copycat and then take a dive quickly behind another scapegoat to hide behind their fans.