Originally posted by ShakyMo
Joey:

A certain type of acheiver won't like the game.

Those that like to get all elitist going "sorry your gear scores not good enough"

Those who get off on raid guild power politics

Those who like to prove how "goode" they are at pvp by grinding / afking / botting their way to the best gear so they can 1 shot "noobs"

[mod edit], it's the "achievers" who like to have *vertical character progression after hitting level cap* that will be disappointed with GW2. 

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Gw2 wouldn't be gw2 if it had say wow raids. Raids taint everything, the great strength of gw2 is it caters to just about all playstyles except raiding. When you have games with raiding, it always comes first and everything else second.

I played WoW for quite a few years. During those years, I went to a total of *one* raid. Raiding is not the only progression route for level-capped characters. Personally, I prefer vertical progression through PvP at level cap. WoW has that. As does Rift. As does SWTOR. As does Aion. Etc. Those games held my interest for quite a while due to that vertical progression at level cap. GW2 doesn't have that. If I manage to make to 80, the idea of "exploring" a finite, virtual fantasy world will not hold me long term. It's free, so I guess that's ok. Different strokes, right?

As for games with "longevity" and never-ending (or nearso) character progression, EVE is a great example.

Originally posted by Deeter
Why does this game still have a sub fee? Why does any game still have a sub fee? Why can GW2 put out the same quality MMO without a sub fee? I don't understand.

Guess they want to keep the freeloaders out, and ensure a consistent stream of revenue to fund future expansions.

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by Boardwalker

I imagine people will leave in droves once they can no longer advance their character in a *meaningful* way.

Define "MEANINGFUL". That could mean anything. Unles you are telling me that grinding a raid is the only true meaningful way of endgame... in which case I will be irrationally annoyed.

No, I definitely did not mean raiding. My focus is always pvp, not pve. In the years that I played WoW, I think I went to one raid, and that's because my guild cajoled me into it.

I just don't think that only being able to cosmetically "improve" a character at level 80 is meaningful enough to retain people. Sure, those people who like to collect pets and fancy hats might be just fine, but it's just not the type of progression that can keep me engaged.

Glad you like it. A game that you don't like isn't worth playing, am I right?

Personally I find GW2..."ok". The 2 best two things about it are:

1. It loads fast on my machine.

2. It's free, so I can pay a sub for another game and not double my cost.

I think a lot of what you say...

"Im playing the character rather than being an unseen god controlling the character"

" Love is poured into every and I mean EVERY object"

"GW2 is beautiful. Artistic."

...says more about you that it does the game. You're projecting a lot of your own baggage, and some of it borders on hyperbole (which is fine, because it's your opinion, and there's no rule against talking up a game that you love).

" I now play PVP. I N-E-V-E-R play PVP. E-V-E-R. I was openly biased against it and would secretly vote for its complete removal."

I'm the opposite type of player. My primary focus in any MMO is PvP. I consider PvE as a necessary evil. If I could, I would openly vote for PvE's removal (in Rift, I level my characters solely through PvP and love it).

I'm glad you enjoy sPVP. It's honestly more FPS than MMO, but to each his own.  I find sPvP kinda silly, and a big-time spolier for developing my character. I'm level 2 and I can join sPvP and use my profession's level 80 traits/abilities. Really? What's the point in leveling if I can just click a couple buttons and instantly get all my level 80 goodies?? Kinda dampens my enthusiasm for leveling. If I wanted to play an FPS, I'd play CoD or whatever the kids are playing these days.

I look forward to see how WvWvW develops over time. I like it so far, but we'll see where it is a few months from now when more people are 80 and there is nothing left to do except horizontal character progression. I imagine people will leave in droves once they can no longer advance their character in a *meaningful* way.

To all the fans defending the problems with GW2: In the future, you must apply the same standards to other MMOs. If, for example, a new MMO launches that 1) is not GW2, and 2) does not have a working AH, you must not flame that MMO as terrible and a failure.

In other words, for the rest of your MMO gaming career, do not be a hypocrite.

Originally posted by Krytycal

I don't think anyone here is saying that GW2 combat is better or worse, what people are saying is that its combat is not overly different from several other MMORPGs. Yes, buffs/debuffs are called Boons in GW2, resource building/spending is slightly different for some classes, CC is shorter, as is stealth. Additional ability bars are hidden in the form of weapon swaps/toolkits, positioning and dodging is very important, etc. All of this has been done before in MMORPGs, and it probably explains why the OP, who doesn't seem to like the combat of traditional MMORPGs, is not enjoying GW2's combat.

 

As far as MMORPG combat goes, GW2's is pretty good, but if you don't enjoy that type of combat, you probably won't like GW2.

Good explanation. I can see your point and I agree. And don't get me wrong, I like GW2's combat just fine, I just wanted to point out that it isn't significantly better than other games out there, at least to me.

Originally posted by Aelious

 It's deeper than this.  Which heal, utilities and traits you use multiplies the process.  Take into account how many different boons and conditions there are in GW2 as well.  Combo fields... You have a lot of options in combat for every profession.  If the criteria for "best combat" is the amount of things taken into consideration when building and putting you avatar in combat GW2 is really good.

 

I'm not going to argue which game has better combat though because that can come down to preference.  For me I'm finding GW2 to be better because 1/2 my build is done up front and the other half is done on the fly while I'm in combat, fun combat being able to freely move around.

And I appreciate that. But in TSW, you also have similar things to think about: which actives do I use, which weapon combos suit my style, which burst, blast, hinder, and impair abilties do I use, what passives best complement my actives, what sequence of actives best maximizes my combat, etc. Also in TSW can you move around while casting, just like GW2. Add to TSW's list of features that you can use any weapon or ability in the game on a single character because it is classless, and you've got a good argument that TSW's combat, and character building, is as good as GW2's, if not better.

I'm not arguing that one game is better than the other. Both are good, and I plan to play both. But to say that GW2 combat is better than other MMOs is subjective and limited by the number of games that you've played.

Originally posted by wowfan1996

/sigh Tera combat is obviously worse (at least PvP-wise) as you can't cast/shoot on the run. GW2 combat is nearly perfect. I say nearly because the amount of spell effects can be overwhelming sometimes. This is pretty much my only negative observation so far.

When you say "perfect", are you talking about mechanics, or animations? Because that is not true of the mechanics. If it were, then GW2 would not be the only MMO with perfect combat mechanics--TSW would be as well.

Originally posted by APRIME

 If by PVP proogression you mean ppl that PVP alot will have stronger characters than those that don't--nope, you probably won't be spending as much time with GW2.

Yep, you're right, I probably won't. I wonder how many people would stick around if they applied the same principle to PVE progression.

Wow, a lot of fans here. I'm happy for GW2. But anyone who thinks that GW2 combat is better than other MMOs is just plain wrong. Tera is better. TSW is on par. RaiderZ will be right in the mix.

Maybe people are confusing combat animations with combat mechanics, because GW2 certainly does the animations well. That might be the only thing about its combat that is better than say, TSW.

So no, managing cooldowns, being aware of when to use situational abilities, evading when necessary--none of these things are unique to GW2 or make it hands down better than other MMOs in terms of combat mechanics.

I'm happy for you. I'm glad you enjoy the game so far.

For me, I like the artwork, but I find that other recently-released games on on par with anything that GW2 does. So, while nice, it certainly doesn't blow me away.

Until there is some type of meaningful progression in PvP, this game won't even come close to the time that I spent playing WoW, or Rift, or Aion, etc.

Originally posted by kol56

It's just themepark PVP, meaningless and shallow, it's still better than almost everything released in the last 8 years.

It's like a COD match, they are fun for a while.... but i don't think i could be able to play it for years without geting bored.

Years? weeks.

This ^. An MMO without PvP without progression is just an FPS shooter. And that's not a knock on FPS shooters.

Progression n an MMO is a key part of what makes an MMO compelling. Can you imagine if they took progression out of pve? For example, you sign up for a dungeon and automaticallly receive all the gear that you need before you begin. Nothing that you can get in the dungeon will be better than what you already have. After you complete it the first few times just for the sake of doing it, what's the point?

If you're not improving your character in a repeated activity, you'll eventually stop doing it in favor of something that actually improves your character.

I like fighting for the sake of fighting as much as anyone, but not having pvp progression in an MMO it just seems out of place.

Originally posted by teakbois

When it comes down to it, DAoC people PvPed not for progression, but becase it was fun.  Now I don't think GW2's WvWvW can match RvRvR, but if the PvP is good enough people wont care about progression.

Well, I'm not sure who you RvR'ed with in DAoC, but I played for years (and still do occasionially) and I RvR'ed for both fun *and* progression. They went hand in hand for me and my RR10+ toons, and for my guildmates. Perhaps you weren't as hardcore about RvR as I was, but every realm rank and new ability were...a huge carrot for pvp progression that made fighting for the realm that much more enjoyable. To me, believing that most people RvR'ed in DAoC for fun only is wearing rose-colored glasses.

If you just want to jump in pvp and have quick fights just for the sake of fighting, that's great. There are plenty of FPS shooters that suit that style of casual play. However, if you want pvp that is fun, meaningful, and progresses your character in some way, MMOs are the best for that type of play. It seems like GW2 leans more in the direction of FPS shooters in that regard.

Originally posted by eccoton

Normalized pvp could be a bad move especially for hardcore pvp'rs. However, it will open up pvp to a ton of people who are afraid of pvp and only pve. GW2 could be the cross over pvp game.

That's a fair point, but I think normalization is only a short-term fix to attract casual or pve players. Without a meaningful progression, or reward system, the urge to pvp will decline even among those types of players. I think FPS shooters are better suited for normalized pvp action than an MMO like GW2, where players seek to improve/progress their characters.

Originally posted by Vhaln

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and say, I bet this will be the first MMO in years that will grow in population, during its first few months.  I don't think it's all hype, I think the word of mouth on this one is so strong, because so many people are enjoying the hell out of it.

 

That's a pretty shaky limb. I don't see a lot of long-term viability in GW2, especially with the normalized pvp. I expect the population to dip significantly after a few months.

Edit: My personal response is that GW2 is..."ok". It's neither as great as some fans post here, nor as bad as some trolls claim. I don't see it as being that much different than other high-fantasy theme parks, except that it just happens to be the newest kid on the block.

Because I'm only level 16 and haven't seen most of the game yet, I have some general questions about pvp. I've played quite a few sPvP matches, and they're fun for what they are. But because everyone is normalized and I have access to all the final skills/traits for my profession, I'm losing motivation to actually level my character.

To clarify, if my sole focus in GW2 is pvp, and I can pvp at level 16 with all my abilities and gear without leveling or "earning" them, why bother spending any more time leveling in pve? One of the things I enjoy in an MMO is gaining abilities as I level, and then trying them out in pvp. But if I can simply click a button and join a pvp match and instantly have all the abilities of my profession, my primary reason for leveling is gone. 

Am I missing something? I understand that WvWvW is not normalized in terms of gear/abilities, but I'm wondering if there is another reason beyond that to level. Is there pvp gear, or some type of progression, that you can only earn at level 80?

I'm new to the game (never played in beta) so like I said I'm probably missing something. Any info is appreciated.

Not really as impressed with GW2's combat as others are in this thread. Like the rest of the game, I give it a solid "it's ok".

I definitely enjoy the combat enough to keep playing, and it has its own rewarding moments, but I don't see how the system is better than Tera or TSW.