It's good to see the staff are responsive to the communty's concerns.  A suggestion would be to have 2-3 people perform each review.  I know it is challenging to find 2-3 people that can write in an articulate manner, but if that were possible, the average of the scores could be reported rather than a single reviewers response. 

Anyhow, just a thought.
Cheers

Originally posted by brad813

How can someone hate Aion and City of Heroes?  For the time periods they were made, they were two of the best games in their respective genres.  I would even argue that Aion is the best MMORPG out there, even over WoW(too commercial).

I don't know, they just didn't appeal to me :-/ To each their own I suppose. 

Short list:

1. An IP I know (Star wars for example)
2. Story that gets me immediately immersed (guild wars for example even though i hate fantasy)
3. Friends already playing (was what caused me to try SWG, eq, eq2, COH, guild wars, etc etc)
4. I also tend to lean toward Sci-fi but so few out there compared to fantasy.

I didn't say company because take NC-Soft for example, love GW, hated Aion & COH. 

Long List:

Mainly, if it is an IP I know, or if the developers do such a good job to get me quickly immersed  in a game without extensive reading of some half-baked story (guild wars for example MMO or not).  I want to know there is a good reason I am killing 10 rats for example. 

The first MMO i played was SWG, and SW IP is probably the only reason I would have ever started playing MMO's.  Not a big fantasy fan, though I played the paper and pen D&D growing up.  I do like guild wars and I have tried nearly every other MMO on the market, but guild wars is the only fantasy game I seem to go back to. 

I like to RP, but I have no idea what two elves or orcs would talk about...you know, chitchat.  We have the lord of the ring movies to give us some ideas about how an elves would interact, but other than that, I have no idea how to make small talk with another elf.  I often cofuse the elves of the movie Elf with fantasy roleplaying elves (not really compatable).  Though, an IP I've known since I was a kid (Star Wars), well I can RP and understand how to act like a jedi or storm trooper, etc.  In guild wars, i just look at it as more of an action adventure game and don't group because I am not in a guild and hate PUGs.  I enjoy just PvEing by myself trying every profession as I think the devs got a lot of things right in that game, especially the skill system and story element. 

Another example is Aion, i bought the CE pre-order based on hype, thinking it is from the same company as GW, i would give it a shot, but absolutely hated it (same with WoW, Eq, Eq2, etc etc).  Where guild wars got me immediately invested in the story, I cannot even begin to tell you what the hell the purpose of Aion or WoW is.  I know the world in Aion is cracked in half and there are good and bad people with wings, but that is about it.  I liked the fact that guild wars had an end to each of the campaign's stories, though I know some do not like that fact.  PvP in GW is also well done though I am not a big PvPer I felt at least I could do it and have fun. 

Thought I would like EVE but started too late, the core players were already too entrenched and just didn't feel like trying to catch up and had a hard time just being a starship with no ground avatar.  I had a lot of hope for FE, but tried beta and for some reason it reminded me a lot of Pre-CU SWG, and having now tried so many other games, found it lacking (just as I would pre-cu SWG if it was just released , probably), though I hope after a year or so FE improves and maybe try again then. 

Originally posted by Kuro1n

TL;DR, read the first part.

The more users the more the cost... theres a average amount of bandwidth every user will use every month and except for that you need to protect your server against stuff such as DDOS atks and such things, you also gotta have GMs and other staff taking care of exploiters and ppl abusing different things as well as a small group of developers to fix bugs. ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC.... Theres a neverending list.

Yeah, I figured there were a lot of costs that are hard to put a nail on so that is why i guessed $2 million a month to maintain for about 88k players or so.  I have no idea really, but it must be rediculous, and I suspect any profit made from th $14 a month must fluctuate as well as players come and go, expansions are created, etc.  Anyhow, interesting topic I think. 

I was going to start a new thread but low and behold I googled my question and found this thread already started. I am not in the gaming industry so have no idea what various investment or monthly direct costs would be, please help out. I also do not have an MBA so those with business or economic degrees, I am assuming there is a more specific formula to calculate this.

ROI = Vf-Vi/Vi

where Vf equals money saved/earned and Vi equals your initial investment.

So let's consider this, please change the numbers and recalculate if you know more accurate numbers. Using Tabula Rasa's rumored $100 million price tag (may only be $20 million, lol, who knows). In 2007-8 it was estimated there was 88k paying customers (see article below). We'll estimate that 200k bought the game initially. Obviously, these are gross assumptions, but it is a starter, as players come and go, some paid a month or two, and more may have purchased it originally, etc etc.

Money going out:
Initial Investment:                                                                                                                         $100,000,000
Monthly cost to maintain, server upkeep & hosting, pay support, devs, etc                     $2,000,000
 

Money Coming In:
Initial Sales: $50 box, say $25 directly back to developer: 200k*$25 =                             $5,000,000
Monthly revenue from subscriptions: 88,000 * $14 =                                                           $1,232,000
 

Therefore the game would be bleeding money of over $700,000 a month with the possibility of never paying for itself, that is why it was shut down. Even if the monthly maintenance was closer to 1 million (based on Frotus' estimate), it would take over 400 months to repay the $100 million dollar initial investment. So essentially, what we need to know is what it costs to maintain a game monthly including the cost for hosting, server maintenance, customer service, development team, keep the water in the crapper flowing, etc.

I am guessing those in the industry have done the math and have estimated that each players costs X amount per month (Frotus's estimate is $10 a month per player), and thus $15 has persisted because a player pays for themselves and provide some profit back to the company. It is when that is no longer true that servers begin to close and or the game dies. In the Tabula Rasa example, though I am sure my numbers are incorrect, it had to be something to that effect to cause them to let the game die.

Obviously, companies can save direct costs by reducing the number of devs, close servers, reduce CS, etc to increase profit margin, and so every game will very as to the exact number of players needed to maintain itself, but I think this gives a rough estimate. Another wrench in the monkey is that some players may have multiple accounts, so though there may be 88k subscriptions, based on 75k players so one player leaving actually reduces the revenue multiplier by a factor of more than 1. Anyway, I acknowledge my numbers are crap so don't flame me for it, if you know better please offer more accurate estimates. I think it is an interesting question and it would be interesting to know what the range of subscriptions must be to maintain most games.

http://www.massively.com/2008/02/21/q4-2007-ncsoft-s-subscription-numbers-and-tabula-rasa-s-financial/
 

Originally posted by Dienekes

 

Originally posted by rshandlon

 

Originally posted by Bane82

 

---

Originally posted by rshandlon
I don't know if anyone has followed the debacle at Perpetual, but that may cause a major snag in Bioware's MMO plans.  They are using Perpetual's game developing engine and with the problems currently involving that company, it may cause Bioware to rethink the whole idea in the first place.  It would not be wise to use development tools from a company who's future is debatable.
We have not seen any comments from Bioware about the issues at Perpetual, but I imagine sometime in the near future we will.

---

 

I don't know what game engine perpetual is using. But it's been said officially already that Bioware's MMO is using the Hero engine. Even the website for the Hero engine mentions this. I've taken a look at the Hero engine website and from what it seems, the hero engine is actually pretty awesome. (maybe not as good as the infinity engine, but still pretty good) In fact, from what I've seen of the hero engine, it looks incredibly dynamic and very intuitive. It looks to work a lot like 3D studio max and anyone that knows a thing about 3d animating knows that 3D studio max is incredibly flexible and very intuitive.

If the hero engine is anything like 3D studio in terms of it's intuitiveness, I expect MMO's of the future to come out at a lat faster rates than before.

Yeah, I noticed my mistake after I had posted it. But did not notice I had made it till was reading about the HeroEngine today in another post.  I am glad I never said I was perfect......lol

 

But, it did make me feel a bit better about Bioware's plans after I realized my mistake.  I had remembered originally that the game engine had to do with "Hero" something and just connected it mistakenly to the Gods & Heroes game engine.

But, again if you read the following link you will notice that Bioware did indeed lease the Perpetual Platform for an upcoming MMO they are working on.

www.perpetual.com/press/

 

I am not sure what is happening though, since they also leased the HeroEngine for an upcoming game.

 

Perpetual's platform is a service platform for Customer Service.  Billing portal, logs, forums, customer support e-mail and chat that kind of thing.  It is completely independent of graphics engine which BioWare as we all know is using the HeroEngine.

As I know it Perpetual's initial product was their service platform so just because they shelved Gods & Heroes it shouldn't have an effect on the rest of their products.

As for my opinion...can't really say but I would guess that it will be NOT: NWN since I assume Atari and Obsidian retain the rights as well as a KOTOR MMO since again Atari and Obsidian retain the rights after KOTOR II.

My biggest concern is EA's MMO track record.  I see 2 scenarios:

Warhammer takes too long and BioWare's MMO catches up in development and Warhammer is shelved OR Warhammer is released and is a huge success in which case they shelve BioWare's title in order to "apply valuable resources elswhere" as they are famous in saying.

I guess there is a third option: Warhammer is released and bombs and they use BioWare's product to make up for it.  *shrugs*  Only time will tell.  :)

Either way I think EA has purchased BioWare for their single player game experience and not their MMO experience which has me worried.

Lucas hasn't retained the IP this long by letting others think they have the right to anything besides what he specfically states.  If he so chooses, I am pretty sure he can let anyone do anything with any part of the storyline from his IP.  I doubt any MMO based on the kotor time frame would even come close to either kotor 1 or 2 in terms of replicating the single player game.  Kotor 2 had a lot of the same elements as 1. 

I can't imagine Lucas and Bioware would team up to do anything else besides a SW type MMO, maybe indiana jones I think someone else mentioned, but how many indiana jones characters can one virtual world have running around at the same time all figthing for the same trinket.  Maybe just wishfull thinking on my part as SWG was my first MMORPG and it still breaks my heart to see the lost potential in that one. 

The original trilogy on betamax, then maybe he would have a clue as to what the hell he was supposed to be making. 

Originally posted by miagisan

Those who still hang on to old SWG are like those who stalk their girlfriends 3 years after they broke up with you....it's just creepy.

 

Do you really think that your actions will truly affect SOE's direction they take SWG? Nope.....none what so ever. If 200k people cancelling hasn't, whats website with sayings that we ALL know by heart by now going to do? Nadda, zip, zero, zilch.

That is funny!

Was just reading another thread and someone mentioned that TR does not have 24hr GM support, can anyone confirm that?  That may be my problem as I usually play late night on the east coast.  Anyone know the hours if that is true?  
thanks

Originally posted by Gorair

yeah , honestly this one thing will probably be why i dont go past my 2nd month of paid time . The spammers disrupt the channels where they are all but useless and it has taken gms an average of 2-5 hours to remove one , and within 5 mins another replaces him to have another hours long session of spam.

With no way to stop them and no 24 hr GM support after hours the spammers rule all chat channels making anytype of conversation impossible unless you spend more time updating and managing your ignore folder ( which has a limit btw) than the GM''s spend watching out for these guys.

 

Not to scab the thread, but there is not 24 hour GM support?  No wonder why I never get responses.  I usually play late night on the east coast.  What kind of hours do they run if you dont mind me asking?

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by Rintintin

Hi All,

I've mentioned this in previous discussions, but once again customer service in TR continues to suck.  The Crucible on Ligo has spots that if you fall off a rock bridge etc, you get stuck and the /stuck command will  not be able to move you far enough to get you unstuck.  For an hour I waited after petitioning a GM and was never helped.  After an hour I just logged out and cancelled my account.  I cannot pay $15 a month to sit around for hours not being able to play because of bug in the game.  I am sure I will get the typical response email a day later saying they tried to contact me in game but I was no longer logged in. I can't believe I waited an hour, I feel abused. 

What kind of experiences has everyone else had with CS in this game?  Good, bad, or otherwise?

Stuck 2 times somewhere where i could not get out (/stuck didn't work) all i did was relog and i was back on a roll again. Futher more only reason why i petition is to report goldscammers. So i don't have any REAL exp. with GM's, kinda never need them in any mmo i ever played.

How long did you wait before you relogged?  Did you play another toon etc? 

I tried just about everything I could think of including logging out etc.  Using the /stuck command moved my character, but not far enough to get me out of the area I was stuck in.  The area i was stuck was weird because i could run through some rocks, and I could even see some flare gashers but could not target them etc.  I even took off my armor and called a reinforcement riflemen to aggro some near by flare gashers and they would kill him, but would not aggro me and I could not lockon to them.   

Yeah, there were times SOE made you wait up to an hour, but that was back in its glory days when subscription numbers were up.  I was once stuck in a cloner from that old bug in which you could get so much fatigue you couldn't be revived lol. 

I think the emails that the CS in TR send us are complete BS, I don't think they tried to contact me in game.  If petitions are particularly heavy, then they should let you know it may be a while or a time frame which to expect help. Regardless an hour is too long to make anyone wait. Even if I ever planned on logging back in, I will still be stuck in the same spot and who knows how long it will take the next time. 

They should add a slash command to kill yourself so a player can get themselves out of those situations. 

Hi All,

I've mentioned this in previous discussions, but once again customer service in TR continues to suck.  The Crucible on Ligo has spots that if you fall off a rock bridge etc, you get stuck and the /stuck command will  not be able to move you far enough to get you unstuck.  For an hour I waited after petitioning a GM and was never helped.  After an hour I just logged out and cancelled my account.  I cannot pay $15 a month to sit around for hours not being able to play because of bug in the game.  I am sure I will get the typical response email a day later saying they tried to contact me in game but I was no longer logged in. I can't believe I waited an hour, I feel abused. 

What kind of experiences has everyone else had with CS in this game?  Good, bad, or otherwise?

Originally posted by JestorRodo

Originally posted by Rintintin

This is unfortunate for the gaming community because there are not many other franchises that could drawn a huge crowd like STO could have. I am not even a fan, but was looking forward to this based on its potential. 

Hopefully whoever owns the rights to the IP lets someone else develop the idea.  What better storyline for both PVE and PVP battles can you think of?  If done right anyway. 

 I have to agree with you RinTT as long as its not SOE.

Yeah, SOE has a habit of picking up cast-offs.  That would be unfortunate. 

I don't agree with the OP that recent games are WOW clones.  Other than the fact that they are called MMORPG's and to be called so, there has to be some similarities, otherwise they would be called something else like a FPS, or what ever. 

The OP does have some good ideas however, I particularly like the skill system, I hate to bring up the bane of my and probably some others' existance, but SWG pre-cu had a fun skill system because you could change and mix and match.  It had it's faults but could be adapted and improved for a new game.  I really hate being stuck in a profession/class what ever. 

The open ended quests was also a good idea I thought. 

This is unfortunate for the gaming community because there are not many other franchises that could drawn a huge crowd like STO could have. I am not even a fan, but was looking forward to this based on its potential. 

Hopefully whoever owns the rights to the IP lets someone else develop the idea.  What better storyline for both PVE and PVP battles can you think of?  If done right anyway. 

Originally posted by kjfett

 

Originally posted by Krileon

Originally posted by Aargh

Originally posted by Liliane

 

Originally posted by Aargh

 In fact... I'm gonna build my own Sci-Fi MMO... Who's with me?

 

So, You have about 30 Million dollar extra money, because that is what it takes?

Are You possible 7 years old who thinks he can lift building with one hand?

Whoa... What?  30 million?  Well, forget the blackjack and forget the game.  I'll just go with the hookers.

You don't need 30million. I've been developing my MMO with $4,000 just to purchase the software needed. It'll cost more later down the road, but presenting a nearly completed MMO to a banker is a guaranteed loan. Yes loan. Investors are bad. They like to "presuade" game changes.

So do bankers.  Screw the loan and the investors.  If you don't have the capital or the ability to get investors involved that can't control what you do, you shouldn't be getting into it.  Furthermore, one guy isn't going to make an MMO. You need employees.  Employees need paychecks, benefits, unemployment insurance.  not to mention the hassles of creating and running a business that is seperate enough to protect your personal life and still generate revenue.  Ohh, and don't forget to pay yourself.  See..suddenly that 4 years worth of work takes a lot more than $4K and a loan from the local Bank of America. 

 

Buying the software isn't even the first step in that marathon and if you think it is.....you are in for a rude awakening and a lot of disappointments.

"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world."

— Arthur Schopenhauer

Originally posted by boognish75

  Well, lol,

  I dont think the mmo era is dying, it is in fact growing as a trend, what is dieing is the heart and authenticity put into games as well as the mmo veteran crowd is simply growing up and out, As I am growing older i feel that the heart is gone from mmo makers, remember how eq , and earth and beyond were experimental, and an experience, we the mmo crowd were smaller back then and the horizon of mmo's were new back then as well. As i see new games coming out it just doesnt feel like it was made with heart and m,agic anymore, its hard to actually do that when the companies are trying to make every stinking game cater to the flood of players which makes the games have a little bit of everything to cater to everyone but not enough of any one of the things to make it special, as the masses pour into any scene the heart and soul seem to leave and watered down mediocrity seems to come into play.

I think part of it is that the novelty of the experience wears off for us old timers.  It's the same with anything, as you get older you look back at how much more magical things were in the "old days".  Don't get me wrong, I fully enjoy the comforts of modern society.  I think as we mature (if that is possible for gamers) as gamers, we expect more depth and complexity to games.  But lets face it, for the most part, most recent games are as complex, in their own way, that the earlier games were. 

Originally posted by DocSavag

It depends on whether you are sailing into the wind or not but generally you can get from one end of the map to the other in about 20 minutes or so. The open sea is more of an abstract than a virtual representation of the world.

For me the game is fun and interesting and I'm excited about the launch. There are things I wish were better but that is true of any MMO i've ever played.

I really like the ship combat and the economy is different than most but I think it has potential.

And as someone pointed out you don't really have to spend any money to get into the Open Beta to take a look. So I say give it a try.

If it took longer than 20 minutes to sail across, then the poo poo'ers would complain that takes too  long to get from point A to point B.   These same people will find something to complain about in every game, makes me wonder why they even bother   Hateful people bore me.  How about channeling some of that negative energy into climbing the stairs out of the basement and getting some physical activity.