Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Brenelael

Ok I seem to notice that people in this thread seem to be seperating 'The City' and 'The People' into two seperate groups which is both right and wrong. The USA is what is called a 'Representative Democracy'. This means that we vote for people to represent us in government. These people in turn represent us by determining the laws that we all abide by. Sometimes Laws are considered controversial enough that they are put to a direct vote of the people. Either way the people have a direct or indirect influence on every law passed. They affect laws directly by voting on them and indirectly by voting into office those that vote on them. If you have an issue the best way to get heard is to talk to your representative directly and if that doesn't work try to get someone else into his/her office that will 'do the right thing' at the next election. This needs to have the majority of 'The People' backing it though to succeed. Also most municipalities have 'Town Hall' meetings so people can gather and complaints can be heard directly by the entire elected City Council all at once.

 

The upshot of all of this is there are many ways to change what you feel isn't right without breaking any laws. People like these lemonade sellers most probably don't even vote much less know how government works or they wouldn't have tried this bonehead stunt in the first place. They have to realize that this Law was put into place either directly or indirectly by the people of Washington D.C. themselves. That is after all how our government works.

 

Bren

As I stated, the City is its own entity that can be told what to do by the people.  When I say "City" I am also including the Representatives (City Council) as they are a part of the City when they are voted in by the people.  This distinction protects the people from true mob rule and Anarchy by allowing a separate entity to govern while still allowing the people to have a voice as to what gets done by the governing entity.

As to the rest, I agree.

That's the whole point of a Representative Democracy. The people indirectly still govern but it's by proxy(the elected Representative). If the people don't like what their Representative is doing for them they have several options. They can voice their concerns to them directly, they can voice their concerns to a 'Town Hall Meeting' or they can simply replace them with someone they think will do a better job representing their interests. All of which is perfectly legal and is the right way to bring about change. Going out and getting arrested because you don't agree with a law is just plain stupid and does absolutely nothing to change it.

 

Bren

Exactly.  That is the proper channels that I was talking about.  The same proper channels that devilicious claimed were "nonsense"

 LMAO! They are nonsense. Have you ever tried to use them? Have you taken on an active role in your community? Have you ever been elected to do anything? You learn these things the hard way. Corruption is at all levels of our government. City, state, Federal- It doesn't matter.  The only things you can change are for publicity stunts and the things that don't matter. Try to make a real difference and you will will get nowhere because that is the reality of how it works. Our judges are bought off, our regulators bought off, Hell even the EPA is bought off.  It is a joke.  I really do think that our elected officials should be forced to wear their sponsors on their uniforms like Indy car drivers so you get the real picture of who they work for.

Been there. Done that. Burned that shirt.

... Your cynicism speaks volumes of your intentions.

Fact remains, the proper channels are there for a reason.

 LOL! I have volumes to base my cynicism on. Yes, the proper channels are there for a reason. The reason they are there is to give the illusion that you have a chance in hell of making a difference, but that is it. The truth in politics is that it isn't about what the people want, not at all, it is about " getting yours" for those you put you there and giving yourself more authority over others.

 That was a  hard lesson learned for this once starry eyed hopeful girl that thought I could actually help people when they elected me. All I learned from that was that no matter how you try there are some things you are just powerless to change, and if you try too hard, and actually gain a chance in making a difference, you won't last long.  Sure, I could get some city beautification projects done, but dare try and help the unfortunate and you will get boxed in.

I would love for you to tell me about my volumes of intentions, since you seem to better understand them than I do. Tell you what,  you go out and try to change something that matters. I dare you. Then come back here and tell me about how my " cynicism speaks volumes" I would love to hear your first hand account on how you were able to make a difference, and how well the system worked for you. Of course pick an item that is very popular with the general population, something that is pretty obvious that most people feel is wrong, something important like I did, and see how far you get. Don't you dare back down either when they tell you," If you don't play the game you won't get anywhere" either. Even when you stay the course you just get burned. Give it a realistic, honest effort and then tell me about the " proper channels". LMAO 

 Kids do drastic things like " getting arrested for selling lemonade" because they feel they have no other way.

Originally posted by mrxennon

And if the police had ignored these guys selling lemonade to the public, and then reports of people being poisoned or even worse because the police hadnt done there job.  Your reaction would be?

 

 

just saying

 At that point there would be victims, and they would be criminals. Hate to break it to you- but healthcode inspections, permits, and licensese do nothing to protect you if someone wishes to cause you harm. How you like those you tube videos of dudes putting their balls on your sandwiches before they deliver them? How bout look up the FDA lists of things they have found in your hot dogs? Bandaids, human fingers anyone?  Do you really know what that guy who made your salad dressing put in it?

Employees at a local pizza place here claimed they witnessed their boss, yes the owner of the place, whacking off on the pizzas because he didn't like the customers. But yea they had all of the required inspections, permits, and licences, so you should feel safe now. LOL

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Brenelael

Ok I seem to notice that people in this thread seem to be seperating 'The City' and 'The People' into two seperate groups which is both right and wrong. The USA is what is called a 'Representative Democracy'. This means that we vote for people to represent us in government. These people in turn represent us by determining the laws that we all abide by. Sometimes Laws are considered controversial enough that they are put to a direct vote of the people. Either way the people have a direct or indirect influence on every law passed. They affect laws directly by voting on them and indirectly by voting into office those that vote on them. If you have an issue the best way to get heard is to talk to your representative directly and if that doesn't work try to get someone else into his/her office that will 'do the right thing' at the next election. This needs to have the majority of 'The People' backing it though to succeed. Also most municipalities have 'Town Hall' meetings so people can gather and complaints can be heard directly by the entire elected City Council all at once.

 

The upshot of all of this is there are many ways to change what you feel isn't right without breaking any laws. People like these lemonade sellers most probably don't even vote much less know how government works or they wouldn't have tried this bonehead stunt in the first place. They have to realize that this Law was put into place either directly or indirectly by the people of Washington D.C. themselves. That is after all how our government works.

 

Bren

As I stated, the City is its own entity that can be told what to do by the people.  When I say "City" I am also including the Representatives (City Council) as they are a part of the City when they are voted in by the people.  This distinction protects the people from true mob rule and Anarchy by allowing a separate entity to govern while still allowing the people to have a voice as to what gets done by the governing entity.

As to the rest, I agree.

That's the whole point of a Representative Democracy. The people indirectly still govern but it's by proxy(the elected Representative). If the people don't like what their Representative is doing for them they have several options. They can voice their concerns to them directly, they can voice their concerns to a 'Town Hall Meeting' or they can simply replace them with someone they think will do a better job representing their interests. All of which is perfectly legal and is the right way to bring about change. Going out and getting arrested because you don't agree with a law is just plain stupid and does absolutely nothing to change it.

 

Bren

Exactly.  That is the proper channels that I was talking about.  The same proper channels that devilicious claimed were "nonsense"

 LMAO! They are nonsense. Have you ever tried to use them? Have you taken on an active role in your community? Have you ever been elected to do anything? You learn these things the hard way. Corruption is at all levels of our government. City, state, Federal- It doesn't matter.  The only things you can change are for publicity stunts and the things that don't matter. Try to make a real difference and you will will get nowhere because that is the reality of how it works. Our judges are bought off, our regulators bought off, Hell even the EPA is bought off.  It is a joke.  I really do think that our elected officials should be forced to wear their sponsors on their uniforms like Indy car drivers so you get the real picture of who they work for.

Been there. Done that. Burned that shirt.

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Scalebane

Whats funny is those morons that got arrested probably think the people watching it give a damn or something, they don't.  it's just something to watch and make fun of later on haha.

 LOL! Yes it was a half assed lame attempt at a protest, and they just messed up their criminal records for a stunt they really did not pull of very well and that will not result in anything other than humiliation.

There is nothing we can do to change the oppressive laws in this nation. It has gone on too long and too far to have any hope of " liberty and justice for all". Was a nice dream.

Green:  Sensationalism.  These cities' "oppressive" laws were voted in by the people.  The people told their cities what to do and the cities did it.  So, you are mad at the people.

 Unjust laws are still unjust regardless of if they were implemented via Mob rule. Failing to protect everyones right to justice and liberty is no better than anarchy.

If a law is blatantly  infringing upon basic Liberty, it should be broken, and broken by the masses until they correct it.

"The People" is mob rule.  The majority of what the people want is what the people get.  THAT is how city and state governments work!

You can't argue for "the people" owning a city and not believe in mob rule.

Green:  That is false.  No liberties are being broken.

 Liberties are being taken. The government exists to protect the indivuduals rights from the mob.  The poor are having their rights taken from them to appease the mob. When you make a law that prevents those with less resources from doing for themselves their liberties are being infringed upon.

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Vato26

Due to their sheer stupidity, I hope the judge throws the book at them (figuratively) and gives them the maximum fine for whatever law they ended up breaking and being charged for.  Not jail time... but fines.  Fines = the ultimate form of punishment for people who break the law while claiming "This is what you taxpayer money is for?"

 

EDIT:  Oh, and all of the money from the lemoade stand should be seized by the DC police as profits from an illegal activity.

 

"Dissent justifies oppression"

There was no oppression here.  The stupid teenagers didn't do their work beforehand to understand that they needed a permit to sell things in DC.  Then, they complained about the laws because they were too lazy and stupid to not have gotten a permit in the first place.  Then, they got punished for their laziness and stupidity by getting arrested due to breaking the law.

There was dissent... but no oppression.

 I disagree. They were being oppressed. I agree with the officer, their issue is with the lawmakers, not the enforcers. There is no place for victimless crime in a free nation. Sure they were doing a lemonade protest, but I think they should to get their point across. At one time in this nation anyone could sell lemonade. If there was a victim from their lemonade selling that would be different, it is just an unecessary loss of freedom.  If there is no victim, there should be no crime.

Sorry.  This is not the 1900's.  Everyone must follow the rules set forth by the city, state, and federal governments or face the consequences.  If they didn't like the rule, then they need to argue with the lawmakers.  However, not liking the law doesn't mean they can just ignore the law and do whatever they want.

EDIT: a $50 permit to sell lemonade? LOL! Where would a kid selling  ten cent lemonade get $50 for a permit? Oh yea this was intended to keep them from doing so by making it unprofitable. Sad. Another example of ridiculous restrictions on the poor trying to start a business. No wonder we don't see lemonade stands on every corner anymore and people are dying of dehydration.

It's called "Cost of doing business".  Every business has these types of costs.  If they don't want to pay these costs yet still want to do business, then they're breaking the law and face punishment.

Why should anyone do research to sell lemonade? That in itself is absurd.

Sorry.  Laziness and ignorance is not an adequate defense.  To go into any business the owners need to know the laws and permits required to go into business.  If not, then they become lawbreakers.

 No this is 2011 where by now we should realize that ridiculous oppressive laws that are only in place to oppress the people should no longer be tolerated. There is a Huge difference between now and the 1900's. People should be educated in this day in age enough to realize the difference between freedom and oppression. They were not lazy, they knew the rules, they were PROTESTING the unjust law. Sometimes when you disagree with a law, the only way to get it changed is to openly oppose it, and when necessary publicy break it to show the ignorance of the law itself.  The founders of this nation were all considered outlaws because they had to break the laws in order to change them. I believe this is one of those circumstances. If kids started opening up lemonade stands on every corner in this nation, would the government then go around arresting all the children, or come to the realization this law needs to be changed? They were making a point. Did you not notice their childish dress? That was their messege.

Except, this is NOT a Federal government issue.  This is a City government issue.  Protesting is fine.  Protesting while breaking laws is not fine and is illegal.  Which is exactly what they did.  And, now they're criminals.

You are just mad at the City law.  Which, is why you are calling it oppressive.

" The cost of doing business" in the US is a huge part of the reason this nation is in crisis. False.  It is at the core of the problem, not the solution. At one time, desperate people trying to make a life for themselves could do so very easily in this nation, but due to oppressive regulations that is no longer the case. At one time if you needed to feed your family, you could use whatever resources you had available to try and pull yourself up, now they put too many unecessary obstacles in the way so the only way poor people can get started is by becoming lawbreakers.  I am surprised you missed that messge in all of this.  Again, this is a City law, not a Federal law.  You are mad at the City law.  Which, is why you are calling oppressive.

They were taking it to the lawmakers. Look at their location. It isn;t like the lawmakers would ever read their letters or care, no they had to do something drastic, such as getting arrested and videotaping it to get their cause noticed. That was the entire point of why they went there to lose money on lemonade since selling it for $0.10 when it obviously costs more would not be in the best interest of a business venture. LOL

Selling perscription drugs without the proper liscenses is illegal.  Even if it's for $0.10, it's still illegal.  You better go after that Federal law then.  Selling hotdogs at a state fair without the proper permits is illegal.  Even if it's for $0.10, it's still illegal.  You better go after that State law then.  You can't make and sell your own gasoline without proper permits and following the laws.  You better go after those State and Federal laws then.

Again, it's called "cost of doing business."  You view those as oppressive because you hate them.

 " The cost of doing business" IS a huge part of the crisis in this nation. People cannot afford to do for themselves and until we fix that they will be dependant on others to support them in order to survive.

They were protesting in the city, and state where the law was made. They were protesting on public property, and aiming it at all levels of government that are promoting oppressive laws. I am not " mad" or " hate" , I just worry for all of those in this nation who are struggling to survive and oppose laws that prevent them from doing so. It is not a matter of hatred, but rather a matter of humanity. They were just powerless kids, no matter what they do, even this isn;t going to change the law, the best they can hope for is to gain support by making their cause known. Yes, there are other ways to go about it, but them being so few, this appears to have served their purpose. They were sacrificing themselves in the hopes of one day people  changing this. Though I see this as  a futile effort, I applaud them for their convictions.

You are promoting supression through force for victimless crimes. I cannot support that. Who exactly was being harmed by their actions? Is someone traumatized by their lemonade selling? LOL

Green:  No it's not.  That's a sensationalist argument.  The facts speak louder than your words.  The police gave them multiple chances to leave without being criminals.  They decided to thumb their nose at the police.  Thus, leaving the police having to enforce the law.  Therefore, they became criminals.  They had the power... but they decided to become criminals.  They also have the power to go through the proper channels of getting the law changed.  But, they decided to become criminals.

Blue:  No, I am not.  Again, sensationalism and now attacks against me as I was not supporting any form of suppression. 

Facts remain:  They violated the law because they hated the law they were violating.  And, instead of actually going through the proper channels to change that law, they ignored the law and became criminals.  And, you are supporting them

 Don't give me that sensationalism crap, I actually feel sad about this. After working with Homeless and dealing with people that feel they have no options everyday, it really hits home that if we do not change these types of laws that keep people from helping themselves, we are condeming them.  The kids should have been arrested. That is what they went down there to do. That was the whole point. Proper channels are nonsense and you know it as well as I do. They have Zer0 chance of getting anything accomplished through channles or by being arrested either way. They only brought attention to it, nothing more, and not enough that will ever amount to anything.  Like I said, I agreed with the officer, their fight wasn;t with them, it was with the lawmakers. They decided to become criminals to make a statement. It isn;t the first time we have allowed people to be locked up for victimless crimes in this nation and is far from the last.

Green:  That is false.  Irregardless of you cynicism, the facts remain that the system works everyday to get laws repealed or maintained.

I have just opened my eyes to what has happened to our nation and realize the efforts are futile. This is how it is going to be and the best we can do is teach people how to survive in it and help them when we are able to do so.

No, actually you became cynical.  The efforts are not "futile" as you say.  The system works.  Especially on the City, county, and state side of the equation.

I am supporting their convictions to stand up for what they believe in, and  agree that victimless crimes have no place in a free nation. I agree with breaking laws that should have never been laws in the first place. For example, in Dallas here owning realistic dildos are against the law. I fully support breaking that law as well and they can arrest all the self pleasuring women they wish, and we will continue to buy them and become lawbreakers until they remove such ridiculous laws. Some laws need to be broken to prove a point, and I see the lemonade law as one of them.

Blue:  So, we get down to the whole point.  If you don't approve of a law, you can claim that it should have "never been a law in the first place" and are all for breaking that law.  Which means that your idea of laws is a highly flexible one.  You don't like the rule... you won't follow the rule.  Which, is exactly what these teenagers did.  I believe that's one of the beliefs of Anarchy.  "I don't like it, I won't do it!"

If they passed a law stating I could not wear my bikini on the beach I would still do so. If they made a law stating I could not give out halloween candy on halloween I would still do so. If they made a law stating I could not dance in public I still would, and would  be considered a lwbreaker as well. Sometimes it is better to be a lawbreaker than a coward.

No, the proper statement, for you, is, "better to be a criminal with flexible law-abiding rather than an upstanding citizen who actually goes through the proper channels to get laws removed that they do not agree with."

 

 Hate to break it to you, but " Law abiding upstanding citizens" break ridiculous laws every day. There are plenty of ridiculous laws on the books in every state. How many people would you estimate that take more than 3 sips of beer while standing? Would that suddenly make you a criminal just because technically it is against the law? LOL

These kids are no criminals and it is a terrible misuse of our resources and justice system to treat them as such.

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Scalebane

Whats funny is those morons that got arrested probably think the people watching it give a damn or something, they don't.  it's just something to watch and make fun of later on haha.

 LOL! Yes it was a half assed lame attempt at a protest, and they just messed up their criminal records for a stunt they really did not pull of very well and that will not result in anything other than humiliation.

There is nothing we can do to change the oppressive laws in this nation. It has gone on too long and too far to have any hope of " liberty and justice for all". Was a nice dream.

Green:  Sensationalism.  These cities' "oppressive" laws were voted in by the people.  The people told their cities what to do and the cities did it.  So, you are mad at the people.

 Unjust laws are still unjust regardless of if they were implemented via Mob rule. Failing to protect everyones right to justice and liberty is no better than anarchy.

If a law is blatantly  infringing upon basic Liberty, it should be broken, and broken by the masses until they correct it.

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Vato26

Due to their sheer stupidity, I hope the judge throws the book at them (figuratively) and gives them the maximum fine for whatever law they ended up breaking and being charged for.  Not jail time... but fines.  Fines = the ultimate form of punishment for people who break the law while claiming "This is what you taxpayer money is for?"

 

EDIT:  Oh, and all of the money from the lemoade stand should be seized by the DC police as profits from an illegal activity.

 

"Dissent justifies oppression"

There was no oppression here.  The stupid teenagers didn't do their work beforehand to understand that they needed a permit to sell things in DC.  Then, they complained about the laws because they were too lazy and stupid to not have gotten a permit in the first place.  Then, they got punished for their laziness and stupidity by getting arrested due to breaking the law.

There was dissent... but no oppression.

 I disagree. They were being oppressed. I agree with the officer, their issue is with the lawmakers, not the enforcers. There is no place for victimless crime in a free nation. Sure they were doing a lemonade protest, but I think they should to get their point across. At one time in this nation anyone could sell lemonade. If there was a victim from their lemonade selling that would be different, it is just an unecessary loss of freedom.  If there is no victim, there should be no crime.

Sorry.  This is not the 1900's.  Everyone must follow the rules set forth by the city, state, and federal governments or face the consequences.  If they didn't like the rule, then they need to argue with the lawmakers.  However, not liking the law doesn't mean they can just ignore the law and do whatever they want.

EDIT: a $50 permit to sell lemonade? LOL! Where would a kid selling  ten cent lemonade get $50 for a permit? Oh yea this was intended to keep them from doing so by making it unprofitable. Sad. Another example of ridiculous restrictions on the poor trying to start a business. No wonder we don't see lemonade stands on every corner anymore and people are dying of dehydration.

It's called "Cost of doing business".  Every business has these types of costs.  If they don't want to pay these costs yet still want to do business, then they're breaking the law and face punishment.

Why should anyone do research to sell lemonade? That in itself is absurd.

Sorry.  Laziness and ignorance is not an adequate defense.  To go into any business the owners need to know the laws and permits required to go into business.  If not, then they become lawbreakers.

 No this is 2011 where by now we should realize that ridiculous oppressive laws that are only in place to oppress the people should no longer be tolerated. There is a Huge difference between now and the 1900's. People should be educated in this day in age enough to realize the difference between freedom and oppression. They were not lazy, they knew the rules, they were PROTESTING the unjust law. Sometimes when you disagree with a law, the only way to get it changed is to openly oppose it, and when necessary publicy break it to show the ignorance of the law itself.  The founders of this nation were all considered outlaws because they had to break the laws in order to change them. I believe this is one of those circumstances. If kids started opening up lemonade stands on every corner in this nation, would the government then go around arresting all the children, or come to the realization this law needs to be changed? They were making a point. Did you not notice their childish dress? That was their messege.

Except, this is NOT a Federal government issue.  This is a City government issue.  Protesting is fine.  Protesting while breaking laws is not fine and is illegal.  Which is exactly what they did.  And, now they're criminals.

You are just mad at the City law.  Which, is why you are calling it oppressive.

" The cost of doing business" in the US is a huge part of the reason this nation is in crisis. False.  It is at the core of the problem, not the solution. At one time, desperate people trying to make a life for themselves could do so very easily in this nation, but due to oppressive regulations that is no longer the case. At one time if you needed to feed your family, you could use whatever resources you had available to try and pull yourself up, now they put too many unecessary obstacles in the way so the only way poor people can get started is by becoming lawbreakers.  I am surprised you missed that messge in all of this.  Again, this is a City law, not a Federal law.  You are mad at the City law.  Which, is why you are calling oppressive.

They were taking it to the lawmakers. Look at their location. It isn;t like the lawmakers would ever read their letters or care, no they had to do something drastic, such as getting arrested and videotaping it to get their cause noticed. That was the entire point of why they went there to lose money on lemonade since selling it for $0.10 when it obviously costs more would not be in the best interest of a business venture. LOL

Selling perscription drugs without the proper liscenses is illegal.  Even if it's for $0.10, it's still illegal.  You better go after that Federal law then.  Selling hotdogs at a state fair without the proper permits is illegal.  Even if it's for $0.10, it's still illegal.  You better go after that State law then.  You can't make and sell your own gasoline without proper permits and following the laws.  You better go after those State and Federal laws then.

Again, it's called "cost of doing business."  You view those as oppressive because you hate them.

 " The cost of doing business" IS a huge part of the crisis in this nation. People cannot afford to do for themselves and until we fix that they will be dependant on others to support them in order to survive.

They were protesting in the city, and state where the law was made. They were protesting on public property, and aiming it at all levels of government that are promoting oppressive laws. I am not " mad" or " hate" , I just worry for all of those in this nation who are struggling to survive and oppose laws that prevent them from doing so. It is not a matter of hatred, but rather a matter of humanity. They were just powerless kids, no matter what they do, even this isn;t going to change the law, the best they can hope for is to gain support by making their cause known. Yes, there are other ways to go about it, but them being so few, this appears to have served their purpose. They were sacrificing themselves in the hopes of one day people  changing this. Though I see this as  a futile effort, I applaud them for their convictions.

You are promoting supression through force for victimless crimes. I cannot support that. Who exactly was being harmed by their actions? Is someone traumatized by their lemonade selling? LOL

Green:  No it's not.  That's a sensationalist argument.  The facts speak louder than your words.  The police gave them multiple chances to leave without being criminals.  They decided to thumb their nose at the police.  Thus, leaving the police having to enforce the law.  Therefore, they became criminals.  They had the power... but they decided to become criminals.  They also have the power to go through the proper channels of getting the law changed.  But, they decided to become criminals.

Blue:  No, I am not.  Again, sensationalism and now attacks against me as I was not supporting any form of suppression. 

Facts remain:  They violated the law because they hated the law they were violating.  And, instead of actually going through the proper channels to change that law, they ignored the law and became criminals.  And, you are supporting them

 Don't give me that sensationalism crap, I actually feel sad about this. After working with Homeless and dealing with people that feel they have no options everyday, it really hits home that if we do not change these types of laws that keep people from helping themselves, we are condeming them.  The kids should have been arrested. That is what they went down there to do. That was the whole point. Proper channels are nonsense and you know it as well as I do. They have Zer0 chance of getting anything accomplished through channles or by being arrested either way. They only brought attention to it, nothing more, and not enough that will ever amount to anything.  Like I said, I agreed with the officer, their fight wasn;t with them, it was with the lawmakers. They decided to become criminals to make a statement. It isn;t the first time we have allowed people to be locked up for victimless crimes in this nation and is far from the last.

I have just opened my eyes to what has happened to our nation and realize the efforts are futile. This is how it is going to be and the best we can do is teach people how to survive in it and help them when we are able to do so.

I am supporting their convictions to stand up for what they believe in, and  agree that victimless crimes have no place in a free nation. I agree with breaking laws that should have never been laws in the first place. For example, in Dallas here owning realistic dildos are against the law. I fully support breaking that law as well and they can arrest all the self pleasuring women they wish, and we will continue to buy them and become lawbreakers until they remove such ridiculous laws. Some laws need to be broken to prove a point, and I see the lemonade law as one of them.

If they passed a law stating I could not wear my bikini on the beach I would still do so. If they made a law stating I could not give out halloween candy on halloween I would still do so. If they made a law stating I could not dance in public I still would, and would  be considered a lwbreaker as well. Sometimes it is better to be a lawbreaker than a coward.

Originally posted by Scalebane

Whats funny is those morons that got arrested probably think the people watching it give a damn or something, they don't.  it's just something to watch and make fun of later on haha.

 LOL! Yes it was a half assed lame attempt at a protest, and they just messed up their criminal records for a stunt they really did not pull of very well and that will not result in anything other than humiliation.

There is nothing we can do to change the oppressive laws in this nation. It has gone on too long and too far to have any hope of " liberty and justice for all". Was a nice dream.

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by HYPERI0N

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Xirik

I can't  wait till this law is repealed so people can set up a giant flea market on the capitol lawn.

I mean... America is already 3rd world right now right?

 The solution is to solve the poverty problem by allowing people to do for themselves, not just send them out to the woods to starve.

Solve the problem, not just hide it under the rug.

If people are setting up flea markets on the capitol lawn, it is because they have no other choice. Provide choices so they won;t need to.

 

So you are supporting the idea of flea markets springing up everywhere then? With no legal recorse such as a permit system to clean things up legally?

 People can make whatever rules they wish for their own private property.  There is no need for victimless crimes. Public property should belong to all of the public, not just the select few that want to impose their beliefs onto others.

Public property belongs to the city.  As, the city has to maintain and protect that property.  They also must protect everyone on that property.  If they do not, and the people are injured by the property (sink hole, bad railings, pot holes in roads, etc...) then they are liable for damages.  It's the City government, not the people, that are liable.  If it was the people that were liable, then no one could sue for land not being upkept as everyone in that city would own that land.  And, you couldn't sue yourself.

Again, this is a distinction that you are not realizing.

The City is the PEOPLE who live in that city. They pay for these things themselves through taxes. The people ARE liable, that includes everyone in the city. The " city" is not some seperate entity that rules over the people. It is the PEOPLE who live there, all of them.

This is where I have a problem with the way government is viewed. The government is the people, not a ruling entity above them. I see the people and the government as equal, the same.  The people are who decides what is best for that city, but that should not include imposing unjust laws and beliefs onto others, that is when it becomes unjust. That is why the indivudual rights must be protected from the mob if there is no victim. I believe that includes the poor and the few as well.

And yes, If you sue the city you live in, and have paid your taxes, and continue to pay your taxes, you are in fact suing yourself and your neighbors because that is the source of revenue for your city. You and your neighbors pay for every lawsuit.

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Vato26

Due to their sheer stupidity, I hope the judge throws the book at them (figuratively) and gives them the maximum fine for whatever law they ended up breaking and being charged for.  Not jail time... but fines.  Fines = the ultimate form of punishment for people who break the law while claiming "This is what you taxpayer money is for?"

 

EDIT:  Oh, and all of the money from the lemoade stand should be seized by the DC police as profits from an illegal activity.

 

"Dissent justifies oppression"

There was no oppression here.  The stupid teenagers didn't do their work beforehand to understand that they needed a permit to sell things in DC.  Then, they complained about the laws because they were too lazy and stupid to not have gotten a permit in the first place.  Then, they got punished for their laziness and stupidity by getting arrested due to breaking the law.

There was dissent... but no oppression.

 I disagree. They were being oppressed. I agree with the officer, their issue is with the lawmakers, not the enforcers. There is no place for victimless crime in a free nation. Sure they were doing a lemonade protest, but I think they should to get their point across. At one time in this nation anyone could sell lemonade. If there was a victim from their lemonade selling that would be different, it is just an unecessary loss of freedom.  If there is no victim, there should be no crime.

Sorry.  This is not the 1900's.  Everyone must follow the rules set forth by the city, state, and federal governments or face the consequences.  If they didn't like the rule, then they need to argue with the lawmakers.  However, not liking the law doesn't mean they can just ignore the law and do whatever they want.

EDIT: a $50 permit to sell lemonade? LOL! Where would a kid selling  ten cent lemonade get $50 for a permit? Oh yea this was intended to keep them from doing so by making it unprofitable. Sad. Another example of ridiculous restrictions on the poor trying to start a business. No wonder we don't see lemonade stands on every corner anymore and people are dying of dehydration.

It's called "Cost of doing business".  Every business has these types of costs.  If they don't want to pay these costs yet still want to do business, then they're breaking the law and face punishment.

Why should anyone do research to sell lemonade? That in itself is absurd.

Sorry.  Laziness and ignorance is not an adequate defense.  To go into any business the owners need to know the laws and permits required to go into business.  If not, then they become lawbreakers.

 No this is 2011 where by now we should realize that ridiculous oppressive laws that are only in place to oppress the people should no longer be tolerated. There is a Huge difference between now and the 1900's. People should be educated in this day in age enough to realize the difference between freedom and oppression. They were not lazy, they knew the rules, they were PROTESTING the unjust law. Sometimes when you disagree with a law, the only way to get it changed is to openly oppose it, and when necessary publicy break it to show the ignorance of the law itself.  The founders of this nation were all considered outlaws because they had to break the laws in order to change them. I believe this is one of those circumstances. If kids started opening up lemonade stands on every corner in this nation, would the government then go around arresting all the children, or come to the realization this law needs to be changed? They were making a point. Did you not notice their childish dress? That was their messege.

Except, this is NOT a Federal government issue.  This is a City government issue.  Protesting is fine.  Protesting while breaking laws is not fine and is illegal.  Which is exactly what they did.  And, now they're criminals.

You are just mad at the City law.  Which, is why you are calling it oppressive.

" The cost of doing business" in the US is a huge part of the reason this nation is in crisis. False.  It is at the core of the problem, not the solution. At one time, desperate people trying to make a life for themselves could do so very easily in this nation, but due to oppressive regulations that is no longer the case. At one time if you needed to feed your family, you could use whatever resources you had available to try and pull yourself up, now they put too many unecessary obstacles in the way so the only way poor people can get started is by becoming lawbreakers.  I am surprised you missed that messge in all of this.  Again, this is a City law, not a Federal law.  You are mad at the City law.  Which, is why you are calling oppressive.

They were taking it to the lawmakers. Look at their location. It isn;t like the lawmakers would ever read their letters or care, no they had to do something drastic, such as getting arrested and videotaping it to get their cause noticed. That was the entire point of why they went there to lose money on lemonade since selling it for $0.10 when it obviously costs more would not be in the best interest of a business venture. LOL

Selling perscription drugs without the proper liscenses is illegal.  Even if it's for $0.10, it's still illegal.  You better go after that Federal law then.  Selling hotdogs at a state fair without the proper permits is illegal.  Even if it's for $0.10, it's still illegal.  You better go after that State law then.  You can't make and sell your own gasoline without proper permits and following the laws.  You better go after those State and Federal laws then.

Again, it's called "cost of doing business."  You view those as oppressive because you hate them.

 " The cost of doing business" IS a huge part of the crisis in this nation. People cannot afford to do for themselves and until we fix that they will be dependant on others to support them in order to survive.

They were protesting in the city, and state where the law was made. They were protesting on public property, and aiming it at all levels of government that are promoting oppressive laws. I am not " mad" or " hate" , I just worry for all of those in this nation who are struggling to survive and oppose laws that prevent them from doing so. It is not a matter of hatred, but rather a matter of humanity. They were just powerless kids, no matter what they do, even this isn;t going to change the law, the best they can hope for is to gain support by making their cause known. Yes, there are other ways to go about it, but them being so few, this appears to have served their purpose. They were sacrificing themselves in the hopes of one day people  changing this. Though I see this as  a futile effort, I applaud them for their convictions.

You are promoting supression through force for victimless crimes. I cannot support that. Who exactly was being harmed by their actions? Is someone traumatized by their lemonade selling? LOL

Originally posted by HYPERI0N

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Xirik

I can't  wait till this law is repealed so people can set up a giant flea market on the capitol lawn.

I mean... America is already 3rd world right now right?

 The solution is to solve the poverty problem by allowing people to do for themselves, not just send them out to the woods to starve.

Solve the problem, not just hide it under the rug.

If people are setting up flea markets on the capitol lawn, it is because they have no other choice. Provide choices so they won;t need to.

 

So you are supporting the idea of flea markets springing up everywhere then? With no legal recorse such as a permit system to clean things up legally?

 People can make whatever rules they wish for their own private property.  There is no need for victimless crimes. Public property should belong to all of the public, not just the select few that want to impose their beliefs onto others.

Fleamarkets spring up everywhere when the people have no other means to make a living. If we allow them to do for themselves and create better business opportunities, the flea markets will subside.

I look at it this way, the flea markets are a symptom of a larger problem. solve the big problem of people being able to provide for themselves and the  poor working the flea markets will no longer need to do so. Those working flea markets have very hard work. I am sure they would much rather have a more humane job with airconditioning, heating, a bathroom where they do not have to fear going to the bathroom or eating because if they do their goods will be stolen.

Of course I see flea markets as an unsightly irritation, but I also realize they would not be there if they had other means. Solve that, and you solve the problem, not just push them aside and pretend they do not exist. The " out of sight, out of mind" mentality on this is part of the problem, not the solution.

Originally posted by Xirik

I can't  wait till this law is repealed so people can set up a giant flea market on the capitol lawn.

I mean... America is already 3rd world right now right?

 The solution is to solve the poverty problem by allowing people to do for themselves, not just send them out to the woods to starve.

Solve the problem, not just hide it under the rug.

If people are setting up flea markets on the capitol lawn, it is because they have no other choice. Provide choices so they won;t need to.

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Vato26

Due to their sheer stupidity, I hope the judge throws the book at them (figuratively) and gives them the maximum fine for whatever law they ended up breaking and being charged for.  Not jail time... but fines.  Fines = the ultimate form of punishment for people who break the law while claiming "This is what you taxpayer money is for?"

 

EDIT:  Oh, and all of the money from the lemoade stand should be seized by the DC police as profits from an illegal activity.

 

"Dissent justifies oppression"

There was no oppression here.  The stupid teenagers didn't do their work beforehand to understand that they needed a permit to sell things in DC.  Then, they complained about the laws because they were too lazy and stupid to not have gotten a permit in the first place.  Then, they got punished for their laziness and stupidity by getting arrested due to breaking the law.

There was dissent... but no oppression.

 I disagree. They were being oppressed. I agree with the officer, their issue is with the lawmakers, not the enforcers. There is no place for victimless crime in a free nation. Sure they were doing a lemonade protest, but I think they should to get their point across. At one time in this nation anyone could sell lemonade. If there was a victim from their lemonade selling that would be different, it is just an unecessary loss of freedom.  If there is no victim, there should be no crime.

Sorry.  This is not the 1900's.  Everyone must follow the rules set forth by the city, state, and federal governments or face the consequences.  If they didn't like the rule, then they need to argue with the lawmakers.  However, not liking the law doesn't mean they can just ignore the law and do whatever they want.

EDIT: a $50 permit to sell lemonade? LOL! Where would a kid selling  ten cent lemonade get $50 for a permit? Oh yea this was intended to keep them from doing so by making it unprofitable. Sad. Another example of ridiculous restrictions on the poor trying to start a business. No wonder we don't see lemonade stands on every corner anymore and people are dying of dehydration.

It's called "Cost of doing business".  Every business has these types of costs.  If they don't want to pay these costs yet still want to do business, then they're breaking the law and face punishment.

Why should anyone do research to sell lemonade? That in itself is absurd.

Sorry.  Laziness and ignorance is not an adequate defense.  To go into any business the owners need to know the laws and permits required to go into business.  If not, then they become lawbreakers.

 No this is 2011 where by now we should realize that ridiculous oppressive laws that are only in place to oppress the people should no longer be tolerated. There is a Huge difference between now and the 1900's. People should be educated in this day in age enough to realize the difference between freedom and oppression. They were not lazy, they knew the rules, they were PROTESTING the unjust law. Sometimes when you disagree with a law, the only way to get it changed is to openly oppose it, and when necessary publicy break it to show the ignorance of the law itself.  The founders of this nation were all considered outlaws because they had to break the laws in order to change them. I believe this is one of those circumstances. If kids started opening up lemonade stands on every corner in this nation, would the government then go around arresting all the children, or come to the realization this law needs to be changed? They were making a point. Did you not notice their childish dress? That was their messege.

" The cost of doing business" in the US is a huge part of the reason this nation is in crisis. It is at the core of the problem, not the solution. At one time, desperate people trying to make a life for themselves could do so very easily in this nation, but due to oppressive regulations that is no longer the case. At one time if you needed to feed your family, you could use whatever resources you had available to try and pull yourself up, now they put too many unecessary obstacles in the way so the only way poor people can get started is by becoming lawbreakers.  I am surprised you missed that messge in all of this.

They were taking it to the lawmakers. Look at their location. It isn;t like the lawmakers would ever read their letters or care, no they had to do something drastic, such as getting arrested and videotaping it to get their cause noticed. That was the entire point of why they went there to lose money on lemonade since selling it for $0.10 when it obviously costs more would not be in the best interest of a business venture. LOL

Originally posted by Hazelle

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Hazelle

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Hazelle

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Hazelle

Just because something has AI doesn't mean that it has feelings.  Machines (even really smart ones) don't have emotions or desires so you're all perfectly safe from anything you've seen in movies.

Robots can't fear or get angry so it wouldn't object to being turned off or see itself as being something that shouldn't be turned off.  It wouldn't save itself unless it is designed to do so.

1 is the same as a 0 to AI.  On is the same as off.

I have a little robotic dog on my desk top that wags it's tail and nods it's head when I push a button on it's back.  It is wagging it's tail because I push it's back and not because it's happy to see me.  Why do I click it's tail?  Because it's cute and it makes me smile.

1) i disagree. Skynet decided to destroy based on rational and logical reason.

2) But what if it has learned that the whole premise of getting shut off is broken. That it would be more efficient to run 24/7 and than based on your attempt to shut it off it realizes you are actively undermining 100% efficiency?

We are talking about machines that can learn and do not stick to the initial lines of code (so to speak)

3) That dog is all but "intelligent".

Skynet decided to protect itself from being shut off by humans and decided to kill all humans; but, as I suggested above "off" has the same value as "on" when you are talking about an entity without emotion.

100% efficiency has the same value as 50% or 10% or 0%.

It will just run programs and if it does harm it will do so because it's been programmed to do so, much like my puppy that wags his little tail because he's programmed to do so.

Yes but, the whole issue here are machines which can learn. While limited learning capabilities pose no danger whatsoever it will become tempting to make them able to learn more and more. The real risk appear when it can learn too much and maybe even that certain parts of its own initial programming are unoptimal and need to be rewritten.

 It's learning will be limited to its initial programming.  A computer designed to scan rotten tomatos isn't going to try to take over the farm, but it will possibly become more efficient at scanning tomatos.  It's fuction is to scan tomatos and it's purpose is to scan tomatos.  It will have no desire to do anything but scan tomatos.  It doesn't get happy about scanning tomatos.  It doesn't become proud of the number of tomatos it can scan.  It doesn't resent the human that controls it.  It doesn't feel that it can do a better job without humans.  It just scans tomatos.

Again that's limited learning. What i'm talking about is broadening the scope of learning. Why make an AI that simply scans tomatoes while you can make one that can analyse every socio-economic aspect of our lives to get better financial predictions or things like that.

You need to realize the more you allow the AI's to do the more we can gain from it. Until we give it too much which might heavily backfire.

Now it might also not backfire but just ending up controlling us. Scenarios "a la Metal Gear Solid". Where some guys think AI's being able to monitor every aspect of our lives is a good thing, but it ends up indirectly controling us.

Or we might say stop before that.

Computers are tools designed to perform a function and in order for any tool to exist there has to be a need for the tool to exist.

Bad programming, bad maintenance, or faulty equipment is the only way that a program can fail and none of them are the computer's fault - it just runs programs - good or bad.

 Have we not learned anything from technology? The more complicated we make it the more things that can go wrong.  Hmm let's see ... DOD hacked, Senators hacked, No antivirus exists that is even anywhere near 90% effective, it is impossible to secure the internet- how the hell could we secure something we make that can think faster than we can? Programs can fail if someone tries hard enough to break them on purpose. Just ask mac.

http://www.macworld.com/article/132733/2008/03/hack.html

Not to mention that this AI  would eventually be used for breaking into things,including other AI robots..

Texas Laws:

~The entire Encyclopedia Britannica is banned in Texas because it contains a formula for making beer at home.

~Clarendon : It is illegal to dust any public building with a feather duster.

~Dallas: It’s illegal to possess realistic dildos.

~LeFors: It is Illegal to take more than 3 swallows of beer while standing.

~Mesquite: It is illegal for children to have unusual haircuts.

~ Port Arthur: Obnoxious odors may not be emitted while in an elevator.

~ You can be legally married by introducing       

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Vato26

Due to their sheer stupidity, I hope the judge throws the book at them (figuratively) and gives them the maximum fine for whatever law they ended up breaking and being charged for.  Not jail time... but fines.  Fines = the ultimate form of punishment for people who break the law while claiming "This is what you taxpayer money is for?"

 

EDIT:  Oh, and all of the money from the lemoade stand should be seized by the DC police as profits from an illegal activity.

 

"Dissent justifies oppression"

There was no oppression here.  The stupid teenagers didn't do their work beforehand to understand that they needed a permit to sell things in DC.  Then, they complained about the laws because they were too lazy and stupid to not have gotten a permit in the first place.  Then, they got punished for their laziness and stupidity by getting arrested due to breaking the law.

There was dissent... but no oppression.

 I disagree. They were being oppressed. I agree with the officer, their issue is with the lawmakers, not the enforcers. There is no place for victimless crime in a free nation. Sure they were doing a lemonade protest, but I think they should to get their point across. At one time in this nation anyone could sell lemonade. If there was a victim from their lemonade selling that would be different, it is just an unecessary loss of freedom.  If there is no victim, there should be no crime.

EDIT: a $50 permit to sell lemonade? LOL! Where would a kid selling  ten cent lemonade get $50 for a permit? Oh yea this was intended to keep them from doing so by making it unprofitable. Sad. Another example of ridiculous restrictions on the poor trying to start a business. No wonder we don't see lemonade stands on every corner anymore and people are dying of dehydration.

Why should anyone do research to sell lemonade? That in itself is absurd.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by deviliscious

What did you guys do?!! I take a vacation from the internet for a bit and come back and you guys got us kicked out! See what happens when I leave you to yourselves for a bit- you set off to destroy the world!  See what I mean about men? You guys can't even manage to behave yourselves enough to have civil discussions without getting thrown out. THAT' is a fine example of men do when women aren't around.  You guys really need to start using both sides of your brain before you destroy the world.

Sad. Really Sad.  * sighs* R&P on here was far more entertaining than other sites. I'm going to miss it.

 

This section of the forums is moderated. you are not allowed to bash men here like you did in R&P.

 

 Mwahahahahah! I was bashing men in OT much worse than I ever did in R&P long before R&P ever existed. It's not My fault men can't PVP with that tiny section of the brain they somewhat use ( if you call that actually using it).

So.. After they brought the Wildy back, I resubbed to Runescape, but I just can;t take the repetition. It is so insanely repetitious and boring, it is really hard to even bother to log in.  The worst part I think that pushes me away is I had already maxed my character, now you come back and all their updates want you to repeat content when this game has no enjoyment in replayability. Repeating what we have already done makes the game worse not better.  I guess I just do not have the heart to repeat the same boring tasks that I hated the first time I did them, that and they always expand on the things I hated most in the game .. like capes. I dropped my first 99 skill cape the day they came out because I thought they blew chunks. I hated capes to begin with then they went like cape bizirk instead of implementing " fun factor " updates.  I hated pets when they had cat quests then what did they do? Add an entire skill about pets. UGH... runs back to FPS  games until Guild Wars 2 comes out.

What did you guys do?!! I take a vacation from the internet for a bit and come back and you guys got us kicked out! See what happens when I leave you to yourselves for a bit- you set off to destroy the world!  See what I mean about men? You guys can't even manage to behave yourselves enough to have civil discussions without getting thrown out. THAT' is a fine example of men do when women aren't around.  You guys really need to start using both sides of your brain before you destroy the world.

Sad. Really Sad.  * sighs* R&P on here was far more entertaining than other sites. I'm going to miss it.

Originally posted by punkrock

lol first let me ask you what is so scary about it??

 I am Hopi and a Libertarian. Should I explain more?

The concept that anyone has the right to rule over another is disturbing enough as it is. As for your ideals, that is quite terrifying.

My belief is that mankind was supposed to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it voluntarily. Force should not be used for anything other than self defense. I believe as free people we each have our own path in life, and our free will of choice guides us through that path, it is not up to another to choose your path for you. 

What made you decide that force would be a good way for people to live?