Originally posted by Drakynn

Originally posted by LordOfTime

Next time you write an editorial/list...

Please actually write something original, rather then just trolling the forums and picking the most vocal troll topics and then making them sound like legitamate concerns through pseudo-well written prose.

You are welcome to your opinion of course,but I found that the article was very balanced.For a start the author made it clear these are only concerns based on little information and pure conjecture.This is different from the majority of negative forum posters/haters who express these things as set in stone,solid and undeniable fact and the doom of the human race.

 

 Even as someone who is keeping his eye on SWTOR, I found in the most part the post to be a pretty realistic list of concerns (except number 1, anyone who thinks SWTOR is a "Wow Clone" needs to wise up that Themepark based MMO's "just aren't their bag baby").

Originally posted by Seero

Originally posted by Tarka

Really?  So using a completely inaccurate term to describe something is missing the point?  "WoW Clone" cannot and should not be used to describe an entire sub-genre in the MMO industry.  To do so would contradict the very meaning of the words, and as Jon Wood put it "distill the entire industry down to one game". 

You cannot use a SPECIFIC description to describe an entire family of products. 

"Themepark" concept based MMO's = correct, the all share similar characteristics which categorise them as MMO's based on the "themepark" concept.

WoW Clones = Incorrect.  Aside from WoW itself, no other MMO is based in Azeroth.  No other MMO has "Taurens".  No other MMO has a "Lich King".  The very fact that these "themepark" MMOs have noticable differences defines that they cannot be clones.

Its like saying Mortal Online is an Eve Clone.  Or saying that a Ferrari is a "Ford Clone" or "Mercedes Clone". Its complete nonsense.  You cannot just redefine the English language to suit your own interpretation.

People are far too literal with some things. Your alternative examples as to why "WoW clone" is an inaccurate term are simply ridiculous. Mortal Online is far too different from Eve to call it an Eve clone. And I'm not redefining any language here, good sir. I'm not really sure what that term means. If you really want to go down that road, "themepark" is a horribly inaccurate way of describing any game. Can you honestly say that when someone says "WoW clone" you have no idea what they are referring to? It is a term - much like "mob" or "aggro" - that the gaming community has invented. It might not be to your personal liking, but I do not believe that is the point.

Ah, so on the one hand you are prepared to argue that MO is sufficiently different to Eve so that it cannot be classified as an "Eve Clone" and yet, on the other you are perpared to ignore the differences between other games so that you can comfortably call them "WoW Clones"?  Doesn't that sound a little hypercritical and biased?

The point is that the word "Clone" has a specific meaning.  It's not ambiguous or vague, and therefore cannot be used as a vague term description for an entire family of related and yet different products.  The simple fact is that something is either a "Clone", meaning that its to all intents and purposes identical (i.e. exact duplicate), or its not.  There is no middle ground.  To imply that there's another meaning for the word is just plain wrong.  And if the intention IS to convey a different meaning then the use of the word is wrong.  Which is entirely the point.

Would you say that a Ferrari is a "Ford Clone"?  No.  Likewise, if anyone tried to suggest that a Skoda was a "Lambourgini Clone" they'd be laughed out of the showroom for being a complete moron (no offense intended to Skoda loving readers).

Its got nothing to do with personal liking, but its got everything to do with misusing the language just to suit your own interpretation of it.  Dictionaries exist to ensure that the meaning of words exist and are understood.  Therefore to misuse a word just shows complete ignorance for the language and the subject matter.

The site and forums are owned by ND.  They police them how they like, they are allowed to.  It's theirs. 

Lets suppose that one of the guests at a party at your house began to insult YOU in front of everyone.  Not just once, but twice. You'd expect them to retaliate and throw you out on your ass.  And that's exactly what they've done.  Yes, they should have "thick skins" but it seems you over stepped the line between was is acceptable and what isn't.

Take responsibility for your actions OP, and don't whine when people take offense at your stupidity.  Next time, perhaps give a little thought as to how your remarks can be taken personally.

Originally posted by generals3

I think "wow-alike" would be a more correct term. A game that just looks/plays alike. Something you can only judge once you played it. (and isn't necessarily bad)

But what i noticed is that actually MMORPG's often play alike even with some differences which in other game genres for the games not to play alike. Heck in an RTS a small difference can make two games totally different gameplay wise (depending on what the difference is). (take this word from a RTS player :p)

Also i think many people tend to compare MMO's simply because an MMO offers many more possibilities than other game genres. Try to think of 10x original FPS concepts, i dare you. And if the genre simply doesn't allow people to think of a billion original concepts (so to speak) people won't be too bothered of certain similiarities . I mean, the only big difference i know between BC2 and MW1 is the fact in BC2 you can use vehicles yet i enjoy both a lot and consider them "different" . If those were MMo's people would already scream "clone!" .

 Agreed.  Although even terms "Wow-like" or "Wow-ish" have their limits dependant on how they are used.  However, they are more generic terms than "Wow Clone" and thus can be used to accurately describe more than one MMO in a particular sub-genre of the industry, whilst at the same time inferring that there are indeed differences between the products.

Originally posted by Seero

It's really a lot more simple than you guys are making it. The term "WoW clone" is a simple, easy-to-understand term to refer to a game that follows the generic MMO model. Were there games before WoW that used the same or similar mechanics? Yes. The reason for the term is simply that WoW is, by far, the most successful MMO of that type, so naturally people will use that as the standard.

Some people think using such a term is ignorant. This simply isn't true. As "1337" as you are trying to make yourself, you are completely missing the point. 

Really?  So using a completely inaccurate term to describe something is missing the point?  "WoW Clone" cannot and should not be used to describe an entire sub-genre in the MMO industry.  To do so would contradict the very meaning of the words, and as Jon Wood put it "distill the entire industry down to one game". 

You cannot use a SPECIFIC description to describe an entire family of products. 

"Themepark" concept based MMO's = correct, the all share similar characteristics which categorise them as MMO's based on the "themepark" concept.

WoW Clones = Incorrect.  Aside from WoW itself, no other MMO is based in Azeroth.  No other MMO has "Taurens".  No other MMO has a "Lich King".  The very fact that these "themepark" MMOs have noticable differences defines that they cannot be clones.

Its like saying Mortal Online is an Eve Clone.  Or saying that a Ferrari is a "Ford Clone" or "Mercedes Clone". Its complete nonsense.  You cannot just redefine the English language to suit your own interpretation.

Originally posted by Ozivois

"WoW clone" is just an ignorant person's way of insulting the MMO's that people play.  WoW was just another link in the chain of MMO evolution, just as these newer games are subsequent links.  And just like Natural Selection works in nature, some mutations of the MMO gene pool will succeed to nurture future development along those lines, other mutations will miserable fail and die off, becoming extinct.

 A very good analogy.  Bravo. 

Originally posted by Tazlor

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by Tazlor

everything is a WoW clone.  they're MMORPG's, how different can you make them?  they're all going to have a lot of the same ideas.  people just over use the term.  everything is a WoW clone, you use a sword and you're copying WoW.  "WoW cl0n3!!  they have a priest just like WoW!!!!"

basically if the game uses any ideas from WoW it's a WoW clone.

 So wrong on sooooo many levels

then explain how?d

 Firstly, read the link in my sig to identify why the use of "WoW Clone" is grossly inaccurate.

Secondly, WoW wasn't the first to use "fantasy" (swords and sorcery)  type concepts in an MMO game.  So, just because other games use the same concepts, DOESN'T mean that they are cloning WoW. 

Thirdly, look at the following:

• "This game uses concepts like those found in WoW"
• "This game is a clone of WoW"

There is a difference in the English language between the words "like" and "clone".  The former makes reference to a certain particular concept that is similar (but also infers there are noticable differences as well), whilst the latter states that the two are EXACTLY the same in all, but minor, ways.  The point is that two sentences do NOT convey the same meaning.  To imply otherwise is to bastardise the English language and show complete ignorance to both the subject matter and the language itself.  And no, that's not swearing.

Perhaps people need to start using a dictionary a little more.

Originally posted by Tazlor

everything is a WoW clone.  they're MMORPG's, how different can you make them?  they're all going to have a lot of the same ideas.  people just over use the term.  everything is a WoW clone, you use a sword and you're copying WoW.  "WoW cl0n3!!  they have a priest just like WoW!!!!"

basically if the game uses any ideas from WoW it's a WoW clone.

 So wrong on sooooo many levels

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by reploidx

from what i gather what everyone is saying on here, everything that comes out is a WoW clone. Though technically we should be calling it an EQ clone.

 Actually EQ Clone is incorrect for the same reasons that WoW Clone is.  The correct phrase is Themepark MMO, simple as that.

I can accept that. But does it matter? If we say "WoW clone", and everyone knows we mean the same thing as "EQ clone" or "Themepark MMO", does it matter? Are people offended by the use of WoW's name, when in fact it's true?

 Firstly, it DOES matter if you want to convey accurate meaning.  Calling something a "clone" when it actually differs in many respects is, by definition, grossly inaccurate. Also, making reference to similarities to WoW is one thing, but calling a game a "Clone" is entirely different.  If you're going to be accurate, use the correct and accurate descriptions otherwise your words just lose all meaning and context.

Secondly, do you refer to all "sandbox" based games as "Eve Clones"?  No.  Why?  Because whilst games like Eve, MO and Darkfall may all be sandbox based games, MO and Darkfall are certainly NOT Eve Clones. Lets take Perpetuum as another example.  Its interface and mission system are VERY similar to Eve.  But do I call it an Eve-Clone and REALLY mean it?  No.  Why?  Because again Perpetuum has its own attributes and qualities, just like MO and Darkfall.

Finally, Ferrari's and Fords and Mercedes are all makers of cars.  Are Ferraris actually "Ford Clones" or "Mercedes Clones"?  Nope.

The whole point is, if you're going to attempt to encapsulate an entire concept into a small decriptive term, then make sure it attempts to accurately describe it.  WoW is a themepark based MMO.  AOC is a themepark based MMO.  AOC is NOT a "WoW Clone".  Eve is a sandbox based MMO.  MO is a sandbox based MMO.  MO is NOT an "Eve Clone"

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by reploidx

from what i gather what everyone is saying on here, everything that comes out is a WoW clone. Though technically we should be calling it an EQ clone.

Pretty much right. Not everything, but the what's coming from the major companies that have the money to really make an MMO. Darkfall, Mortal Online, some of these guys are trying to break the themepark formula, but they lack the funds to make a quality game overall.

The main gaming companies are all making level grind games, which as explained already, leads to a game that plays just like other themepark MMOs, at it's core.

 fixed it for you

Originally posted by reploidx

from what i gather what everyone is saying on here, everything that comes out is a WoW clone. Though technically we should be calling it an EQ clone.

 Actually EQ Clone is incorrect for the same reasons that WoW Clone is.  A more accurate phrase to use in order to categorise these games is to label them by their very sub-genre:  Themepark styled MMO.  Its that simple

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Some of you are trying really hard to not accept what we mean when we say "WoW Clone".

 That's because the term is actually grossly inaccurate compared to what you WANT it to mean.

What people call "WoW Clones" are nothing more than themepark MMOs in general.  They aren't clones and they certainly don't take place in azeroth.  So the term "WoW Clone" is so inaccurate that it shows the person who brandishes it to describe a game as being completely ignorant.

Just because a game has a quest system, PVE, storylines, multiple predefined classes, etc, etc, etc, DOESN'T define it as a "clone" in any sense of the term. 

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Cyphers, before WoW became such a huge hit, they were called EQ clones. Even AC was called that simply because they had levels, which at this point seems like an injustice (although slight), in my opinion. But WoW's success put them at the forefront, so now we all say "WoW clone".

True, but I didn't notice it happen as much as these days where MMO's are being called 'WoW clone' for any excuse and the merest similarity possible.

Besides, I also find it odd why the 'clone' tag isn't used as much in singleplayer games as it is with MMO's.

 Agreed.  Personally I detest the phrase because it is grossly inaccurate, and to purposefully use it to describe a game shows a complete lack of understanding and appreciation concerning the very essence of the MMO in question, whether that was the intention or not. 

The mere fact that a game has differences to WoW (e.g. it is NOT set in the same gameworld) means that by very definition it ISN'T actually a clone at all.  The definition of the word "clone" is that to all intents and purposes two items are identical in pratically every way (barring any defects).  Of course, that doesn't stop people from generalising and distilling the concepts used in the game to the point whereby the game loses its very unique identity.

I think Jon Wood said it best:

"#1 WoW Clone

By far the most over and misused word in the MMO dictionary. In theory, the term WoW Clone refers to a game that so closely resembles World of Warcraft that it could have been grown from its very DNA.

In recent years, this term has been applied to almost every single P2P MMO either in production or released. It is applied to any game, it seems, that makes use of: an RPG style user interface, quests, level progression, guilds, instances, zones, swords, the list goes on.

While World of Warcraft does indeed make use of all of the above mentioned elements and more, the fact of the matter is that they were not the first, and they will not be the last. Many of the elements that are pointed to as evidence of a WoW clone are rather fingerprints of the genre as a whole. Quests, for example, have been an integral part of not just MMOs, but of RPGs from the very beginning, the same goes for concepts like level progression, guilds and the fantasy setting. While Blizzard may have created a formula that improved the way that these elements are presented, World of Warcraft remains just a stepping stone in the overall evolution of the genre.

It is certainly easy to understand a desire, amongst players and developers alike, for change and innovation within the genre, but labeling each and every new MMO release a WoW Clone in the way that some people have been serves to do nothing but reduce the entire genre (both pre and post World of Warcraft) to a single game.

It isn’t necessarily a departure from the conventions of the genre that people are looking for so much as it is a bit of obvious innovation."

The point is, people use the term "WoW Clone"  when in actual fact they actually mean that the game is a themepark game.  And whilst WoW and AOC are indeed a themepark type games.  AOC is not a clone of WoW.  Its like saying Ferraris and Fords are all cars, but a Ferrari is not a Ford clone by any stretch.

Originally posted by J0K3R_3D

So glad to see the negative/concerned views on their current implementation of companion characters. Just FYI, so far theyre planning on giving complete freedom with them. Meaning theyre in PvP and Battlegrounds. Meaning you'll have a team of (so far) 4 players and 4 pets or more if they have raids. Meaning "/roll on this item for my pet" (yes they use the same loot players do). ............. EVERYWHERE!

Again, glad to see its mentioned in the article as well as many replies here. I definitely think this stands to ruin the game as a whole. Probably a good reason they havent had the balls to show any footage of them yet.

 Even as someone who enjoyed the use of companions in Kotor 1 and 2 (who can forget the fantastically sarcastic HK47), I wouldn't shed a tear if their interaction in the game was largely removed in favour of encouraging more interaction with other npcs and grouping.

Originally posted by NovaKayne

Based on what I have seen in the videos so far the End Game is gonna suk!

I mean come on....  Just higher levels and more powers of the same you see in those vids?  Puh-Lease!  Who do they think they are kidding? 

Story?  You want me to actually PARTICIPATE in the story line?  Who died and made you king of the MMO world? 

Why the hell would I want to spend my time running around in a Star Wars environment listening to scenes where they are talking to me and play this game only to get more powers to do more of the same walking around and listening to the game talk to me. 

I mean seriously, I could go outside and ride my bike or play sports or go see a movie if all I wanted was entertainment!

 ROFL, you know for a moment, I ALMOST believed your sincerety Lol.  

This is probably old news to a lot of people but I thought I'd post it....

It has been confirmed that SWTOR's planets will be continuous "open" worlds like WoW has with a relatively small percentage of instanced dungeons. 

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http://www.tentonhammer.com/events/e3/2010/swtor-ohlen-interview

Next question from a reader is will I be ushered along a storyline and have very little room to sway or can I sway off and go in a different direction?

James: Our game is very open. We’ve developed several worlds, and each of those worlds is wide open, huge worlds with many square kilometers and you’re able to explore those worlds any way you want, just like your standard MMOG. We do have a class story that drives you through the world and that class story is personal to you and it takes you from the beginning of the game to the end of the game. If you want to take a break from your class story and want to do some world quests that are not a part of your class, you can definitely do that. In fact, the majority of the content is that in the game. So, it’s not like you’re just going along you class quest like a solo quest throughout the entire game, there’s a lot of room to go off and do whatever you want whenever you want. Also, within your own class quest, you can make choices and those choices impact on how your class quest unfolds. There’s a lot of room for choice; it’s not a linear game by any measure.
 

"TTH: Will the worlds be instanced, where only myself and my party can enter or will it be an open range for everybody on the planet?

James: Just like I was talking about earlier, these worlds are huge public spaces. When you go to the world of Coruscant or Tatooine, you’re going to have a huge world to explore with many square kilometers and it is all public space. You’re going to see all the other players that are part of your shard running around doing their thing, and there are phases within a world and those phases are often where class events take place, but that’s a very small percentage of the space. It’s not a heavily instanced game. We are using instances, which we’re calling phasing, to do a lot of our storytelling, but it’s a massively multiplayer game. That’s what people are signing up for and that’s what we’re giving them."

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http://www.gamesradar.com/pc/star-wars-the-old-republic/preview/star-wars-the-old-republic-developers-tell-all/a-20100326133812999003/g-20081021163120143024

“Our public areas are part of one contiguous world,” Ohlen says. “Not just our cities – 90% of the game, actually, will be a public area where you can run into other players.” He says the number of players per server will be comparable to World of Warcraft’s, some of which are home to 30,000 players at once."

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"The worlds are open WoW style, where they are separated by zones, with seamless loading time between them all." - E3 Toro-aid June 2010

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So, take what you've seen so far in the videos with a "pinch of salt" because it seems that we ain't seen the entirety of each world.  Not by a long shot.

The class appears to be similar to hunter / ranger classes found in other games, with the obvious GW2 graphical flare added.  To me (and only to me) there's nothing new here, however that isn't necessarily a bad thing.  The class looks fun to play simply because it emulates whats been done before.  Why change the formula a great deal if it works?  What's been shown isn't enough to really get me stoked, but others obviously like the class.  Which is no surprise really.  Hunter / Ranger classes are usually fun to play in any game.

Originally posted by Edli

2) Companions

I just don't get it. Why should we have companions in a multiplayer game. I liked em in kotor and other single player games but in a mmo? I always wanted those companions in kotor to be real peoples. The companions are supposed to be the other players or friends in the game. The single player games emulated that in an artificial way but in a mmo is not needed. Just a bad decision for me.

 Hopefully Bioware will understand this and ensure that they don't impede on any encouragement to group up with people.  If they don't, then this could spell the downfall for the game.

Originally posted by lkavadas

All you have to do is watch this boring ass combat video to deduce SWTOR is just more of the same.

And as others have said, the graphics suck.

Next time perhaps you might consider actually contributing a post that is both constructive and relevant to the OP, rather than using it as a vehicle to troll and make wild assumptions based on such a small amount of evidence.

This game obviously aint for you.  Leave it at that and move on friend.

Originally posted by Riboflavin

     There are many examples of the games I had listed, that I didn't mention, but overall, sandbox or not, they had something to do. If you release a game with lack of content like MO, or content you cant get to like darkfall (because you will just be slain over and over with everything you earned taken), or content that is broken like vanguard (and no new content promised to come), then the things to do are gone. People cant picture themselves doing it anymore, the fantasy of the game is smashed. Hardly any mmo truely dies, there will always be a minimal playerbase willing to stay, but the majority of people need a constant struggle to overcome (having all your items taken so you can reget them doesnt count). The need to progress is key. Whether its crafting that unique item that is hard to do, conquering that huge dungeon only a few guilds can do, playing a rare class combo that is very useful but hard to level to, wearing that piece of armor that took 40 people to get, people want to feel like they accomplished something, and have things left to accomplish. If everyone has the same armor, everyone max level/skill, everyone has beaten the instance, people arent going to continue to play for the sake of playing. The game needs to be big enough for people to pour thier effort into.

 Gets no argument from me. Repetative activities without progression or are considered too slow in progression, are considered boring and meaningless.