Originally posted by canibusclub

You can believe that if they sell all those boxes that it will not be a failure. There will be people subbed and enough people for them to draw in massive revenue.  

 

As far as failing as the MMO community is concerned? I couldn't give a rats ass what the MMO community thinks tbh. On MMORPG every game is concidered a failure , unless it is WoW.   

 To some (not me), WoW is a failure because it fails to address their own personal requirements.  The point is, "failure" can have many definitions to many different people. 

To address the OP, financial "failure" would imply that the product fails to recoup the costs in develop and make a profit, whether or not SWTOR will be a financial success or failure cannot be predicted accurately at this time.  Chances are though, that the investors will allow for sufficient amount of time before seeing a return on their investment.  Otherwise they wouldn't have invested in it in the first place.

Now, as we all know, just because a product is a financial success doesn't necessarily imply that the game will be necessarily popular enough for the community to consider the product a "success".

Therefore, yes this game COULD "fail" both financially and in terms of popularity.  But, it has just as much chance at being a success too.  Being a well known brand name doesn't guarantee anything.  Just ask Richard Garriott and Brad McQuaid about that. 

The point is that pPersonally speaking, I still think we don't know enough about the product yet to make an accurate judgement as to its long term prosperity.

Originally posted by Reizlanzer

I too have been following TOR from the start, and have still yet to be impressed. However, it is bioware... and bioware typically knows what is best... I'll be honest when I first saw a video of Dragon Age: Origins I thought to myself, "What a load of shit" - but that didn't stop me from buying it what with me being a fan of Baldurs Gate.

 

The fact of the matter is, they couldn't be working harder to turn me OFF of the:

* Storyline component, So if my Sith Warrior kills a ship captain, he is dead right? But if another Sith Warrior let's him live... he is alive? Come on... Why even have that kind of choice if it is going to ruin immersion?

* ALL their meta game content including Ship Owning, Armor Collecting, Space Combat and Partner Collecting.

* Their choppy combat system. People keep screaming, "It's only beta!" but man, never has a game in development a year before release used such an ancient toolset then changed up before midnight launch.

 

But even though I have all these major gripes I can't help but feel like this is going to be a big one. I don't know why, maybe it's because the only time I've ever felt like this in the past was with WoW...

 Storyline Component:  I'm a little unsure as to what you're getting at.  Are you saying that being in a group where not everyone makes the same choice will ruin your immersion?  Or are you saying that the fact that another different group can let the captain live, whereas you kill him, will ruin it?  In the case of the former, I believe it comes down to "majority rules" in group encounters.  In the case of the latter, well, this is part of the inherent issue with MMO's which you just have to live with.  If YOU killed a captain then how are others supposed to do the quest if he is "dead" for everyone?  To expect "one time only kills" for the majority of encounters is unreasonable in an MMO environment.  The game is there for everyone to enjoy, not just a few who happen to kill mobs first.

The simple issue is that when OTHER players see an encounter, it has to be reset so that they can do it.  However, it doesn't have to appear reset to YOU if you have already done it.  The answer lies in utilising technology and methods of putting players in specifically tailored environments to suit their choices.  One way is instancing, another is phasing.  Both of which have been confirmed to be in SWTOR.  At this moment we don't know to what extent phasing and instancing will be used to tailor the environment based on the quests at a player / group has. 

Meta Game Content:  Ship owning is like it is in Kotor, if you had other expectations then you weren't managing them correctly.  People seem to be expecting SWTOR to have AT LAUNCH not only a polished land based game but ALSO the content of another games expansion as well.  This kind of expectation is unrealistic.

Choppy combat system:  Are you referring to choppiness and stuttering in graphics or maybe breaks between each swing? If it's the latter, thats the same at low levels for a lot of RPG's and MMO's.  Remember that THOSE videos are showing low level combat.  Not high level combat.  And the cooldown between swings and casts at low level is indicative of the progression of characters in a lot of RPG's and MMO's.  As you level up the combat gets more fluidic and faster paced.  This is no different.    Play Neverwinter Nights and you'll see that when you start out each swing takes what seems like an age.

Originally posted by Warband

Originally posted by Tarka

Personally I'm bewildered as to why people are so surprised at this news.  People have obviously been expecting far more than what Bioware told us.  Read their original announcement and you'll see that they emphasised that space combat wasn't going to be a primary focus or like JTL in its depth.

Now, IF the concept proves to be popular after launch, then maybe they'll develop it further.  But right now, Bioware have too much on their plate to launch a polished "land based" game, let alone divert resources to incorporating what people are expecting to be a whole expansion into a game that has yet to be launched.

Then the question proposed should be why bother doing it all.

If Bioware didn't have the time and resources to do space combat properly then why didn't they wait until they did in order to do it properly. The QQ comes from the fact people didn't expect Bioware to go the half assed last minute add-on route. If they said they would introduce it in a later expansion where they could do it the justice it deserved then I'm sure most would understand.

Another question should also be asked. Why the vague announcement. Bioware knew full well the large amount of misconceptions produced from such an announcement or at least should of unless were being incompetant. They should have explained most of it in the announcement to avoid this confusion but again they left it very vague.

Your first question is a very good one indeed.  One that can only be truely answered by Bioware and LA themselves.  I think on this one occasion they felt that by even adding this level of space combat they could potentially attract more people.  But it may very well bite them in the ass.  Space combat could be the anchor that weighs down the rest of the game, overshadowing the polish of the land based game with poorly implemented space combat features. 

On the other hand, Bioware may have time and resources available to develop space combat further prior to launch.

As for the vague announcement, if you look at the original announcment carefully you'll see that they tried to emphasise the point that it wasn't going to be a main focus in the game.  Thereby implying that in development terms, there won't be as much focus as there is on the core gameplay.  Yes, Bioware and LA have been cagey throughout this games development, but if the past hasn't taught us anything else, it showed us that we need to learn to manage our expectations a little better.

Hope for the best, but expect the worst.

Finally, remember there is still some time to go.  PC Gamer / PC Action's interview is NOT a review of the final product.  Bioware are notorious for being cagey.  They are only telling us what they can guarantee will be in the game.  Nothing more.  So for all we know, they may already be developing more depth, but aren't willing to discuss it yet.

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by baphamet

i fail to see why it needs to have space combat in order to be an mmo. that just makes absolutely no sense, it has persistent worlds, it has massive amounts of people playing it online, its based off of the KOTOR brand, which never had space combat and didn't need it.

It doesn't need space content (content includes combat) in order to be an MMO.  There is no argument that it's an MMO.

It needs to have space content in order to accurately represent the star wars world on which it's based.  It's not based on the KOTOR brand, it's based on the Star Wars brand.  

SWG and STO both had space and ground combat and were made by substantially worse developers than BioWare and with a lot less money.  Surely BioWare can do better, no?  I really don't think it was too high of an expectation for fans of BioWare and Star Wars to expect a game that was significantly better and more elaborate than those two.

 Ok firstly I beg to differ about the highlighted bit in your quote.  This game IS predominately based on the Kotor Brand.  Yes, that brand is loosely based on the Star Wars franchise, but the point is that Kotor didn't have many (if any) space battles as I recall.  Bioware are designing the game around the Kotor timeline for a number of reasons, one of which is that Kotor was a successful product and therefore they want to use that successful formula as a foundation for an MMO. 

Now secondly, remember that SWG didn't launch with JTL, that came later in an expansion.  The point is that one cannot expect Bioware to put together a highly polished landbased MMO WITH the contents of an expansion ready to go for launch in the same time that it would take other MMO devs to put together just the core gameplay.  No matter WHO the developer is, there is only so much development time and resources to dedicate to particular elements.  People need to remember that and stop to think how long these things take to develop. 

Thirdly, remember that STO is a predominately a space based MMO with a bit of ground based play thrown in, SWTOR is the other way around.  Unfortunately, Cryptic made a balls up of both, but that's a conversation for a different thread entirely.

Developing space combat isn't just a day of a job, like all things it takes time and resources.  Diverting resources to implementing even THIS level of space combat will diminish the resources available to develop the rest of the game.  Would I prefer more "space combat"?  Yes, but not at the expense of potentially releasing a poorly polished land based MMO.

Now, IF the "space based" part of SWTOR proves to be popular then Bioware have a chance to dedicate resources to it AFTER launch.  Not before.  That makes sense.  They need to focus on the primary core of the game and polish THAT before launch.

The good thing about this is that more in-depth space combat can be implemented at any time AFTER launch and people will see that as a nice bonus, but ONLY if the main core of the game proves to be successful and popular.  And that can only have a chance at success if they do it right with the maximum amount of resources and time available before launch day arrives.

Personally I'm bewildered as to why people are so surprised at this news.  People have obviously been expecting far more than what Bioware told us.  Read their original announcement and you'll see that they emphasised that space combat wasn't going to be a primary focus or like JTL in its depth.

Now, IF the concept proves to be popular after launch, then maybe they'll develop it further.  But right now, Bioware have too much on their plate to launch a polished "land based" game, let alone divert resources to incorporating what people are expecting to be a whole expansion into a game that has yet to be launched.

Originally posted by Faelsun

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by Saorlan

Guys FFS stop making posts about this Themeparked, Level Based, Point and click combat waste of space.

Seriously go and play some of the great MMOs that we have out currently. 

 By your response I take it that you're referring to the likes of "sandbox" games.  Care to give an example of a "great" MMO that isn't a themepark, level based, point and click affair?

And please don't refer to the likes of Mortal Online and Darkfall, because then I'll just laugh my head off.  And please don't refer to Eve Online, because unless you're a pvp fan its about as shallow as a teaspoon.

You forgot Fallen Earth, also telling someone to give you an answer and then saying, you can't use the correct answers to the question is sort of...... I dunno , sad.

EVE is more than just pvp if you have played it , but EVE is one thing, the embodiment of EVIL to themepark lovers they can't argue it away. 

Sad?  Well that's just your opinion, the majority of the MMO community seem to agree that both of those games can hardly be called "great" by any stretch of the imagination.  As for Fallen Earth, I tried it, didn't like it. 

With regards to Eve, I played it for about 10 months and found it extremely boring from a PVE point of view.  Mining, selling ore on the markets, repetitive mission grinding, logging in purely to set your new skill to learn, etc, etc, yawn.   I found that I was spending more time watching tv and movies whilst mining or waiting for my skills to complete, than actually "playing" and partaking in the game.  Hence I quit as I found it a waste of time and not "fun".  And people have the nerve to call "themepark" MMO's a "grind".

To me Eve isn't "the embodiment of evil" as you put it, even though I prefer themepark games.  Eve has potential to be far better than it is.  It has a great economic / crafting synergy.  But, like so many other games with "potential" that will never come to pass, the direction in which CCP are taking the game just isn't to my liking.  I'm not going to complain about exactly how it should be, simply because that would be futile.  Eve is what it is.  And Eve is, in my opinion, predominantly a pvp based game with shallow and repetitive pve.  I'm more of a PVE'er than a PVP'er.  I don't begrudge or hate people who like PVP, in fact I think BOTH gamestyles are needed in all MMO's in order to help them be successful.

But I suppose saying all this doesn't stop you from assuming things, as you always seem to do Faelsun.  We all know you hate the concept of SWTOR and any other MMO that is based on the "themepark" design because you consider them all "WoW Clones".   If you have a logical, objective and justifiable argument then, by all means, use it.  Otherwise, this ain't the game you are looking for.....move along....move along. 

By the way, with regards to what is "sad", I would say that a good example would be someone who attempts to antagonise another by commenting on a conversation that didn't involve them in the first place, or perhaps someone who insists on distilling an entire range of products by simply ignoring their differences so as to justify their argument that they are all clones.  I would call THAT person sad, wouldn't you?

Originally posted by corun

Originally posted by Saorlan

Guys FFS stop making posts about this Themeparked, Level Based, Point and click combat waste of space.

Seriously go and play some of the great MMOs that we have out currently. 

There are no good MMOs available right now. That's why I don't play one and maybe thats why I post here 

Back to the topic:  2 to 8 minute interruptions while flying through space?

Space flight/combat should be put in place when they have something substantial.  A mix of the XWing Series an EvE maybe?

 Well, to me the "space combat" sounds like an optional diversion than anything else.  Bioware are playing it safe by just implementing enough to wet peoples appetites and if it proves popular then they can invest more resources into it after launch.  Which is a sound plan my my opinion.  MMO dev companies sometimes try too hard to incorporate as many features as possible, spreading their resources too thin prior to launch and thus resulting in a product that is seen as unpolished and weak.

Therefore, I'd expect a more "JTL like" space combat activity introduced 6 - 12 months after launch

Originally posted by Bsheezy

cryptic is the uwe boll of video game developers.  there, i said it. 

 A very good analogy

Originally posted by Saorlan

Guys FFS stop making posts about this Themeparked, Level Based, Point and click combat waste of space.

Seriously go and play some of the great MMOs that we have out currently. 

 By your response I take it that you're referring to the likes of "sandbox" games.  Care to give an example of a "great" MMO that isn't a themepark, level based, point and click affair?

And please don't refer to the likes of Mortal Online and Darkfall, because then I'll just laugh my head off.  And please don't refer to Eve Online, because unless you're a pvp fan its about as shallow as a teaspoon.  Plus its about as "point and click" as you can get.

Originally posted by Kabaal

 

---

Originally posted by Tarka
If you were expecting the space activities in SWTOR to emulate JTL, then you're not keeping them in check.  As for JTL being "rich" in gameplay, I beg to differ.  I found it to be very lacking.

---

 

It really wouldn't susprise me to see them going more in depth with space combat in a similar way as JTL, an expansion.

Expansions seem to be the one thing people are forgetting about SW:TOR, it'll be like any other decent P2P game and have large paid for expansions once a year or so.

 I agree.  Expansion releases are one thing, launch day is another entirely different beast.  Bioware have enough on their plate creating a fully polished land based experience, let alone trying to incorporate another games entire expansion in as well that is also polished and ready for launch.  Now I could be wrong in my assumption, they may have more time than necessarily and therefore could possibly focus on emulating JTL.  But, given the sheer volume of work involved in getting an MMO ready for launch, I highly doubt that they are in that position.

Personally I expect the "space" side of the game to incorporate the bare essentials that add a little "immersion" to the game as a whole.  Therefore, the "space" activitities in the game will be, at launch, a momentary diversion.  A minigame as it were that has little effect on the main essence of the game. 

Thus these small diversions during travel give Bioware the opportunity to "test the water", so to speak.  And if it proves to be popular, then can then develop it further after launch.

2 - 8 mins sounds like an intermission whilst travelling between planets.  Like being "held up" by bandits when travelling a road between two cities.  Which is good in my opinion because whilst it adds more depth and immersion to overall gameplay, it doesn't detract the player from the main gameplay experience:  land based gameplay.

To put it into a Star Wars context:  like the mini-battles we used to see in the original films between the millenium falcon and a few Tie Fighters.

One thing to bear in mind is that the space activities in SWTOR were never intended to be a primary focus of gameplay.  Just look at the official announcement and you'll see how they've carefully worded it to emphasise that point. 

If you were expecting the space activities in SWTOR to emulate JTL, then you're not keeping your expectations in check and assuming too much.  Take information provided at face value.  Don't assume details which haven't been provided.

As for JTL being "rich" in gameplay, I beg to differ.  I found it to be very lacking.

In a perfect world an MMO would have elements of "realism" (graphics, true physics, lip syncing, etc,etc), open worlds and no instancing.  But we don't live in such a place. 

The simple issue comes down to time and money.  In the last 10 years, as expectations with regards to graphics rose, the expectations in terms of development time dropped or remained the same.  And as the old saying goes:  you cannot put a full pint into a half pint pot. 

Ignoring the fact that time is spent on developing the engine itself, what this means is that whilst an MMO dev company is forced to focus on making sure they get "realism" just right, then that activity eats into the development time to focus on other parts of the game, such as additional depth in gameplay, design of the game world, balancing of classes, itemisation, dungeon design, polish, more testing, etc, etc.

Regardless of what game they are making, shareholders want the game out of the door as fast as possible and MMO players expect it to be developed within a "reasonable" timeframe (e.g. 5 years).  But that is getting increasingly hard to accomplish when more and more expectations are made of the product.  So, in essence, something has to give.  Either the design of the product has to be modified to allow it to be developed within the agreed timeframe (modifications which will have the least impact on the products attractiveness), or the timescale itself is extended to cater for the design.  And we all know which one is the most attractive of those two.

Now, modifying the design can mean anything between the removal of gameplay depth and features to the design of a product with stylised graphics.

Personally speaking, if "realistic" graphics are replaced with "stylised" graphics just so the dev team can focus more on gameplay and polish, then I'm all for it.  Why?  Because gameplay is often touted as being the primary concern for MMO players.  

I'd take a "stylised", polished and popular MMO, over a "realistic" looking, incomplete, unpolished shallow MMO, any day.

Both WoW and Eve Online showed the world that you don't have to have very detailed "realistic" graphics in order to have a successful and popular game.  I'm glad that SOE are realising this as well, because its the big names (those who have a lot of money behind them) who have the power to lead this industry into maturity.

Well, I knew that Atari was playing around with the D&D franchise again after hearing that was allegedly one of the reasons why they didn't do a good job at marketing DDO in Europe (see claims made in Turbines law suit against Atari). 

And considering that I've yet to see any Cryptic game that was anything more than a superfiscial and shallow representation of what it should be, this rumour doesn't fill me with excitement.

Grats OP, just remember that you won't naturally get full access to the game (Bioware have stated that people will be focused on individual aspects of the game, not the game as a whole).  Also remember that you will only be a tester for a small period. However, I'm sure you know all this already. 

I wish you well OP and I hope that you find lots of bugs which are then promptly squashed by the devs.  Of course, I'm not hoping for lots of bugs in the game, but you know what I mean ;)

Keep an open mind OP and do a good job for us all :)

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Senadina

I think because, in most cases, we are paying a recurring subscription and want value for our monthly fee. We feel entitled to continue to voice our opinions because our money is continuing to line the developers pockets.

Lol, yeah right.

It's because we have unrealistic expectations. 

It's because we don't understand the games we play.

It's because we are addicted.

 Plus we often don't appreciate the constraints that are imposed on the development of these games.  And I'm not just referring to publishers and shareholders.

Because you are looking at the one place where a lot of MMO whiners congregate, because they can no longer post in the dedicated forums of their own previous MMOs. Look at the dedicated forums for each game and you might see less of what goes on here, purely because those who are still subbing / can still post on the individual forums have a tendency to be a little more tolerant of the games flaws.

However, that's not to say that EVERYONE on here is a whiner.  But nevertheless, there are those who enjoy in taking solice in bitching about every game that doesn't meet their own particular standard of what an MMO should be. Plus, such people love to jump to conclusions based on very little factual evidence.  They yearn for the world to hear their plight and thus feel they have some limelight and attention when they bitch and moan.

Originally posted by KaoRyx

Originally posted by lilwins

Sorry kid, not a GW2 fanboi by any means, I just trust Arena-Net and from what I have seen so far, GW2 looks to be pretty good and staying true to the most important aspects of the Guild Wars franchise. Fanbois are like religious zealots just like yourself and anyone else that defends a dying game or a game that looks to be like a complete failure (As if it was the second coming of Jesus Christ.) until the ends of time. If GW2 fails and I see it failing I will not defend it like a religious zealot, SWTOR fanbois will defend that game until it's on its death bed. In the past 12 years I have been burned by too many MMOs to get hyped about any future MMOs, the hype SWTOR devs/marketing are giving to the game is beyond disgusting, reminds me of AION/Warhammer hype. I got burned by AION horribly and now I have to play it until January 2011 because I payed for a full year's sub. I despise over-hyped games and that is why I hate on SWTOR.

You are as much a fanboi for GW2 as any of the TOR supporters you claimed were TOR fanbois. Arena-Net has no stronger a reputation than Bioware, it is merely your allegiance to them that determines your support. Since both games aren't released, your random support puts you in the same category of those you yourself mocked. Also, you shouldn't project your insecurities onto new games just because you yourself made terrible decisions in the past. You assume SW:TOR fans will defend it if it's failing, why? Because they defend it now? The games not out yet genius, there is no way of knowing what you are saying. Not to mention that considering you claim to hate overhyped games, you are in strong support of GW2 which is just as hyped as TOR. You're posts are riddled with inconsistencies and narrow-mindedness. You should probably try to avoid trolling the future, leave it to the trolls who are intelligent enough to formulate semi-decent aggressions.

 Lol. Bravo.  It's certainly ironic how those who project themselves as being "enlightened" because they aren't fanbois, have more in common with those fanbois than they realise.  Especially when it comes to labelling others as being the extreme opposite of their views. 

Another irony point is how people claim that SWTOR is getting hyped far more than other games.  And yet, SWTOR is getting about as much hype as GW2 is doing both on this and other sites.

Originally posted by Anubisan

... I would still play it because I love Bioware games and they have never let me down.

Plus I really like the emphasis on storyline and the features they have announced so far. The fact that its Star Wars is just an added bonus.

 Pretty much sums up my feelings too.  I'll be giving it a try at launch.  And until then I will remain objective about the game and only judge what we HAVE been told, not what we haven't been told. 

Unlike the OP who, like others, feel the incessant need to scream at the world about how something will fail based on very little facts and a lot of biased opinion, purely because they crave the attention.  Just like a spoilt little child who doesn't know when to shut up.  "Look at me mummy!! Look at me!!!"

Run along and play in your sandbox (game) OP, and let the grown ups talk amoungst themselves. 

When is a clone not a clone?  When it has noticable differences to its so-called "duplicates". 

The mere fact that AOC, LOTRO and many others have differences to WoW means that by very definition, they are not in fact clones.  No matter how much one tries to distill the design, there ARE differences.  Ergo, they aren't clones.  Similar?  Perhaps.  Clones?  No.

For instance:

1. Does WoW use a combo system in combat?  Nope. 
2. Do WoW casters use spell weaving?  Nope. 

Therefore, is AOC a WoW clone?  Absolutely not. 

Now, does AOC have quests?  Yes.  Does AOC have a level based progression system.  Yes.

Does this therefore imply that AOC is in fact a WoW Clone?  Nope. 

Originally posted by UOlover

Item loss in Eve works because you don't spend an entire year of your life trying to get the super pretty, all powerful, 2 handed Axe. They also don't have 11.5 million players, an argument very well could be made that if they did have that many subscribers things might be slightly different.

 Interesting point actually, I wonder what Eve players would say if they didn't have insurance, lost progression in training or even training levels themselves if they died.  Would they have the same opinion about such a harsh DP then?