Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

I have to disagree.

I wouldn't consider myself an elitist, but I do pride myself at being good at what I'm doing.

What I dislike is games where someone with the better gear will always win by facerolling, rather than their ability to play the game.

Congrats on spending countless hours doing something boring to get better gear than me, now press 2 buttons and win.

I hate this.

Skill should be a major deciding factor in PVP.  "I got outplayed" is something more fun to lose to than "He farmed for hours to get better gear".

I don't like researching to pick an overpowered class and get some specific gear so that I can just easily win all my fights, how boring is that?! 

I play a Rogue, Mage, or Healer archetype, and I love when I manage to beat multiple enemies because I outplay them, or support my team well.  I don't brag about it, but it feels good. But  I don't want it handed to me either, which coincides with the Overpowered class = boring.

I want my PVP to be based on how well I play, rather than how much time I'm willing to spend doing something I don't find fun (farming for gear).

I find people who create low level characters and gear them out completely just to faceroll low level PVP to be pathetic.  To me it's saying "I can't play against people my own level, so I'm going to play in such a way that I don't even have to try".

That may sound elitist, but It's just frustrating when you're trying to have fun or level up through PVP.

I also hate the whole "Auto attack + 1-0" thing that's been going around forever now, but that's a different animal.

The other view on this issue is that you are just not good at playing RPGs and are using your twitch 'skills' to compensate for your lack of RPG skills.   The person with better gear is showing a better ability to play the game then you and you are just whining because your better twitch skills are not giving you an unfair advantage. 

It really boils down to whether you think RPGs should be about the character's abilities or the player's physical abilities. 

To me skill in an RPG game has always been about building a character and trying to make it as perfect a build as you can come up with.  The other aspect is strategic and tactical thinking where resource management and positioning is key.

In many ways I am an elitist since I simply cannot give twitch-based gameplay as much respect as I give to more strategic games.

My main concern with gear dependance in MMORPGs is with how the gear is obtained since I really do not consider griniding to be in the spirit of RPGs as well.

I love strategy, I love having better positioning than my opponent, and using my skills at the right time to counter my enemies choice in abilities, I'm not saying my "twitch skill" should come in to play, I'm saying that in alot of situations, when I completely outplay my opponents in PVP by countering all their decisions, and they can still beat me because of their gear, there's an issue.

Say you have 2 stuns, one is 2 seconds, one is 3.  I wait out the 2 and use my escape on the 3 immediately and put you in to my own stun.  However your gear is better than mine, so I can't put out enough damage against you even though I've outplayed you, and you are able to take huge shots at my life with your most basic abilities.  So I set myself up and predicted your stun, countered it, now I start my own combo, a long chain of my moves that I am constantly thinking about your next 3 moves, however my damage only gets you to 50-75% while your poor choices have killed me through gear.

I'm the guy who plans his fight before it even happens, but has the twitch skills to adapt to things that don't go as planned.  I see an enemy capable of big damage but has powerful healing too.  I will save any kind of interrupt for that heal, as well as any escape ability to get out of a stun so they can't stun/heal.  I will always have something in mind incase someone else tries to attack me (CC), I will run from something I know I will lose.

I've won 5v1s in games by outplaying my enemies, and it feels amazing, it's really something that feels like you made a huge accomplishment when you can outplay 5 enemies at once, using strategy and skill alike, when you have equal or worse gear.

I'm not saying Gear shouldn't play a factor, I'm saying gear shouldn't be a major DECIDING factor.  I hate grinding as you do, it's boring and not fun.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by mm0wiggins

 

Before PVP in MMOs, we only had FPS, fighting games (like street fighter or mortal kombat), sports, Racing, and RTS games to choose from for PVP.   Those types of games require direct player skill, reflex, ability, coordination, and knowledge to be successful in any match vs another person.    MMO's only require that you have the right formula in terms of how you built your character.  (stats, gear, level, class/race combo, etc) none of which depend on the person actually being good at controlling the character.   This caters to a larger number of people being able to "have fun" (not get constantly stompled) in pvp.

This is very true. Espeically the last part.

did players ever stop to think that the reason "skill doesn't win all" is that it's not supposed to? That it's more about leveling the playing field? MMO's are not fps games. I realize that fps players might want this but it seems that mmo's are about progression, stats, gear and allowing a larger group of people to participate where most of them would not be able to participate if it was twitch based.

I have to disagree.

I wouldn't consider myself an elitist, but I do pride myself at being good at what I'm doing.

What I dislike is games where someone with the better gear will always win by facerolling, rather than their ability to play the game.

Congrats on spending countless hours doing something boring to get better gear than me, now press 2 buttons and win.

I hate this.

Skill should be a major deciding factor in PVP.  "I got outplayed" is something more fun to lose to than "He farmed for hours to get better gear".

I don't like researching to pick an overpowered class and get some specific gear so that I can just easily win all my fights, how boring is that?! 

I play a Rogue, Mage, or Healer archetype, and I love when I manage to beat multiple enemies because I outplay them, or support my team well.  I don't brag about it, but it feels good. But  I don't want it handed to me either, which coincides with the Overpowered class = boring.

I want my PVP to be based on how well I play, rather than how much time I'm willing to spend doing something I don't find fun (farming for gear).

I find people who create low level characters and gear them out completely just to faceroll low level PVP to be pathetic.  To me it's saying "I can't play against people my own level, so I'm going to play in such a way that I don't even have to try".

That may sound elitist, but It's just frustrating when you're trying to have fun or level up through PVP.

I also hate the whole "Auto attack + 1-0" thing that's been going around forever now, but that's a different animal.

I'm really bored of the "1-0 skills + auto attack" type of games.

I want a game where the combat is more....involved.

Games that used to really hold my interest:

Rakion

GetAmped 2

Rumble Fighter

Kwonho

Vindictus

Fury

Exteel

Gunz: The Duel

I've been playing alot of League of Legends and Battleforge but they're getting boring...

I'm waiting for games like, Dragon Nest,or Blade & Soul.

F2P with cash shop is preferred.

Originally posted by SBFord
   (1) The Maelstrom being added offers players the chance to quest underwater and discover lots of new areas to swim through.

   (2) The game's graphics remain the same

   (3) The lack of a new class is still frustrating

(1) The maelstrom is NOT the underwater zone, the underwater zone is Vashj'Ir.

(2) Actually the graphics got a very nice overhaul and it looks alot better than it did before.

(3) Some classes got their talents and abilities changed so drastically that they have an entirely new playstyle, you mentioned they changed, but still try to knock blizzard on it?

You also completely neglected to mention the addition of MULTIPLE in-game cut-scenes and cinematics that pull you in to the story, as well as quests that are completely different from "Go here, kill x, collect y".

Just thought you'd like your mistakes pointed out, cheers.

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by Xiaoki

I think Agricola1 deserves a great big Thank You for proving the point that "PvP brings out the worst in people".

 

As opposed to PvE, where no one complains, no one labels anyone, and everyone holds hands while happily slaying the monsters?

 

ya right....

 

This brings me to dungeon failures a long time ago:

"WHY THE F*** DIDN'T YOU HEAL ME?

You pulled and I had no mana.

YOU'RE A FUCKING NOOB.

I had no mana...I couldn't heal.  

STFU."





Ontopic:

I would not play a pure PVE game.  It would feel too constricting.  PVP is my way of venting, or just having some fun.  Many of the games I play these days are PVP with PVE half-added in.

This isn't to say I don't enjoy good PVE, it's just extremely rare to find. 

I'm waiting for some awesome god-like gameplay from C9, Mabinogi Heroes, or Dragon Nest.

They look amazing.

Bump, because I'm looking for a nice stealth class too.

Zorndorf, what part of the game are you in? What characters do you have?

The true reason I quit is because:

• Level 80 Human Rogue
• Level 80 Mage
• Level 80 Shaman
• Level 80 UD Rogue
• Level 74 UD Rogue
• Level 72 Warrior
• Level 65 Priest
• Level 77 Warlock
• Level 80 Death Knight
• Level 80 Druid
• Level 60 Hunter

Progression:

• Naxx 10-25 full clear
• Ulduar 10-25 full clear
• That one raid with a bunch of dragons and a huge dragon in the middle (10-15 full clear)
• PVP rank 12 pre Cross Realm BG's.
• 375 in all professions amongst my characters.
• Heroic All Dungeons full clear
• Normal Dungeons Full Clear (Including 1-60 dungeons)

The game is just boring, I've played it into the ground and then rolled around in it's remains, then ate those remains and digested them for another year.

PVP isn't even fun anymore and is based more on who has the better gear rather than who plays the class better. PVE is stale and repetitive [Stand here when x happens, or just keep pressing same rotation of buttons until it dies].


The game is WONDERFUL The first time through.  The second time through it's still fun.  But I've been playing since 5 months after it was released (Vanilla WoW). And it's really just BORING now.

It got boring when resilience was added, people stacked it and my ability to beat geared players with an undergeared character was gone. 

Then I went to endgame PVE.  I went to Ulduar and completely destroyed it with my guild, and decided it was no longer fun to obtain gear, so that I could get more gear, so that I could get more gear so that when I have the best gear. I can either get owned in PVP because my PVE gear has no resilience, or I can WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT PATCH SO THAT I CAN GET MORE GEAR SO THAT I CAN WAIT TO GET MORE GEAR.

  And they keep nerfing the Rogue, my favorite class, to the point where I re-rolled and got multiple level 80's besides my rogue.

The rogue is now extremely gear dependent it's not even fun, and they keep nerfing and nerfing, it ends up being such a boring process to get the gear to make him playable that In the end, the fun that you would have with the gear, isn't worth it.

I'm looking for an MMORPG (P2P or F2P) that has a good/fun to play Assassin/Rogue/Thief.

Games I've played and aren't interested in:

• Grand Chase
• World of Warcraft
• Cabal Online
• Dragonica
• Lost Saga
• Runescape
• Maple Story
• Warhammer Online Age of Reckoning
• Rakion
• 12sky (and 2)
• Risk Your Life
• Dungeon Fighter Online
• Heroes of Newerth

I prefer PVP, but it's not required, as long as the PVE is FUN.

Grinding, while it isn't preferred, is OK.

..I think that's about it.   I've been looking all over the place but can't find a decent game anymore.

Good luck on recording something like that without crashing your game, you'd need one HELL of a machine.

Originally posted by aikage

 

 

What are you going to do when the next 2 or 3 games are exactly the same.. just much more crappily made.. and with more bugs and less content?

I'm seriously just going to do things more productive, or play games that give me more satisfaction.



I'm a PVP'er primarily, PVE was just for the lore, I love a good story.

WAR was a disappointment, WoW was fun until WoTLK, where most classes got an I.W.I.N. Button (You'll get it if you're an addict like I was).

I'm seriously just sick of the game in general, the only reason I initially started playing was for the lore.  

I can just watch the Arthas fight from some random guild and still be satisfied. 

Seriously.

Quest to level up, hit the cap.

Grind dungeons to get rep/gear.

Farm (Grind) materials to get better gear.

Then get better gear, so that you can get better gear, so that you can get better gear, so that you can get better gear, so that you can get better gear.

Or do some of the horribly balanced PVP.


I quit when My guild had Ulduar on farm status 25 man.

So boring, seriously... 80 shaman, 80 rogue, 74 rogue, 73 rogue, 70 mage, bunch of mid 50's of every other class.



I'll admit this game was AMAZING the first time through, still fun the 2nd time through.  But by the 3rd level 70 I was so fucking done, especially with nerfs.

Originally posted by Ramonski7

 

Difficulty needs to come from figuring out how to overcome your human opponents with the tools you have available, not trying to figure out what the tools are.

This is the point.

I want the challenge of outwitting or outplaying my enemy.

I don't want the challenge of who did the boring part the longest, got the better gear, or has more people.

I want to level up, yes.  But I also want to have a chance against EVERY class.

I want a balanced game where a 1v1 situation is up to player skill, not gear.

I want a game where if I play right, I can beat 2 or 3 v 1, but not by a landslide, if at all, but it's POSSIBLE.

The most fun I've ever had was winning a 4 v 1(me)  In WoW's arena as a rogue against a druid/warrior/mage, who outgeared me.

I've long since quit WoW, I desire fun PVP, I hate where WoW went with their PVP, I was excited and pre-odered WAR, only to be HUGELY disappointed by how much of a nukefest it was and my melee was useless, especially in keeps.

Maybe I'm just insatiable...but the point is exactly what you said.

"Difficulty needs to come from figuring out how to overcome your human opponents with the tools you have available, not trying to figure out what the tools are."

This is usually the problem of mass PVP, the melee becomes nearly useless and it's just a nukefest (in many games with mass PVP, I found this to be true, I really couldn't tell you with Aion, I haven't even seen the Abyss).

This was the reason I quit WAR....I want to play my melee class in massive battles and still be useful.

(I have little to no experience on Aion, so don't take this as my opinion towards it)

All "ZOMG WoW COPIED X" or "X is a WoW CLONE"  or  "STOLE" used in any way shape or form ASIDE.

I'm enjoying WoW now and the lore is really interesting. 

I played WAR for 2 months and Felt it was too choppy of a game I might go back to it if they refine it but It's just not fun for me right now.


I see alot of tabletop QQIng. What about D&D? 


Anyway, I'm waiting for a debate to occur and not an argument.

Crazy, just stick with this one, it's very promising

I'm going to buy this game whether it comes out tomorrow and gets patched up to a very polished version, or whether it comes out 3 years from now, the point is, I WANT TO PLAY

Beta Access plz