Originally posted by markoraos

In addition "sandbox" doesn't have to mean that the game has no NPC content at all. In fact, I can envision a game which takes place in an NPC AI driven dynamic world where players may influence the way this "god AI" changes the game state and are given quests based on the needs of the said AI (or AIs). That could be a possible mode of further evolution of sandbox games... In fact I hear that GTA4 actually has something smilar though very rudimentary under its hood and the players absolutely love it.

The day they can put a gameworld like GTAIV in a massively online format.  Will be the day all other prior MMOs lose all their subscribers.   Great point made though.  GTAIV doesnt need levels or even skills, and you could play it for years endlessly.  All it would need is growing aspects of customizeablity, being able to deck out your home, buy bigger nicer homes and even furniture, trophies, and such.  Guilds would be gangs, and gangs could control parts of cities.  I could also see tons of people role playing Drug Dealers, Prostitutes, Gamblers, Weapons Dealers, Undercover Cops, Bounty Hunters, Hitmen, etc. 

   The dynamic AI would control would control npcs & could still have quests and scripted events but you wouldnt have to do the quests, and  I could imagine that many peoples quests would dynamically overlap, and class with other people quests and make a very wild city indeed!  Or you could make your own as well. GTA IV already has the most amazing multiplayer I've ever seen in a full city with all the dynamic AI npcs running intact.  It would already be an amazing MMO if there wasnt a small cap on number of players.  Maybe in 5 years we'll be there.  I hear the game APB being made now by one of the designers of GTA will do alot of what I described, but again it wont be Massively Online, and still be limited by the amount of players in one instance.  But it will have tons of customizeability.

Ok sarcasm /Off

   In response to the guy who said he loved moding out his online house.  I can totally agree with that.  I think a game idea to take the throne from The Sims would be a home design game that took a really great FPS engine like the Unreal engine, but made a simple way to build any custom home you wanted, and fully customize the colors, textures, patterns, lighting, and thousands of styles of furniture With new ones being added as downloadable content.  And then you could connect online and invite others into your home or visit people in there homes. Make the TVs/Radios in the homes actually connect to the web and be able to access web videos or music streams.  With entire neighborhoods built this way and connected by hubs of roads, we'd see the beginnings of the first fully 3D cyberspace. 

And dont tell me Im describing HOME for ps3.  I said Totally customizeable and with near photorealistic graphics.  You could design your own home perfectly for instance in the game.  Sims kinda does this, and it may get there eventually in Sims 3 or 4. 

    When I was a kid, we didnt have computer games.  We played with Rocks! and to us PVP was us throwing them at each other and we LOVED IT! and the game never ended.  People are so spoiled today and lack imagination!  I miss my rocks.. =( 

We didnt have Radios or TVs or even books.  We just made up our own stories in our heads.  People are too lazy today and expect some external device to entertain them.  Pathetic!

Hmm.. Dec16th? Damn thats going to be one of the biggest days of my life, seeing history made in America as a true revolution takes place once again during the The Boston Tea Party Ron Paul rally.  Its gonna be huge taking place in every state, but especially in Boston.  Ill be out partying for that. But I wish I could join in, Spellborn is the greatest MMO in development I believe.  I guess Ill just have to read the transcript.

Originally posted by BesCirga

 

Originally posted by Wolfsheim

That would be a great over generalizing of the things there are too do.  Exploring and Questing for instance covers a whole range of things to do depending on what kinda quests you take, and how the LORE is written and unfolds immersing you in the world your in.  The variety of experiences  you can have in just those terms can cover 100s of things to do.  You may want to be highly competitive and perfect your ability in PVP in arenas, you may want to setup and run a guild that controls a region waring with other guilds.  You may want to run around saving players from bully PKers, or you may want to be a PKer, you may just like to play chess in a pretty fantasy landcape, or who knows? Just saying that you may not like Crafting is just one aspect of so many others that you dont like.  At high level though you will be able to craft, and you will be able to multiclass at that  point learning skills outside your starter class.  Player housing will probably be added in expansion and player run cities, etc, etc.  They can add all kinds of things to gameworld, and considering all this as Not Much, is belittling all the best games ever made.

 

Crafting isn't just something to "do", it's developing and molding your toon the way you like your character to be. Spellborn has removed our ability to do just that.   

What do yo mean by that?  "Spellborn has removed our ability to do just that?" In what way?  If you just like crafting and that all you mainly want to do, and for WHATEVER reason you think Spellborn's crafting wont be enough for you, then there are a ton on other MMOs already out that all do crafting in any number of ways that should keep you entertained, but there are NO mmos with anywhere near the kinda combat system that Spellborn has other than maybe AoC which remains to be seen if they can even pull off having a bunch of players onscreen at once in PVP.  I like AoC but I gotta see more positive videos of the PVP before I get any more excited about it. 

Originally posted by ghoul31

 

Originally posted by Wolfsheim

 

  

 

   Did Conan ever wear platemail?  Did he ever NEED to wear platemale?  Its called skill and ability.   Arent you totally sick of seeing clones of your character running around at your level wearing the same uber item of your class/level range?  Arent you sick of being forced to wear a stupid hat or pink dress because the stats on those items give you power you do want, but absolutely hate what it makes you look like? 

 

If Conan was real, yes he would have needed to wear armor.  And no, I've never worn a pink dress in a MMORPG.

 

 

  So your saying you never wore some crappy looking armor or weapon purely because you wanted the stats they gave you in that MMO?  And ya Magic and Elves and all are so REAL compared to Conan.

Originally posted by Ravel_RP

Apology accepted.

Now, one of the main concerns of people at the moment is what is there to do except fighting, questing, exploring, PvP, gathering and playing chess and checkers at the inn?

The answer is: not much, but maybe it is more than enough. Maybe it is not. We cannot be sure before we have tried it. I do not know whether this game needs crafting skill to be added to the present crafting. I do believe TCoS is probably not meant for those who are into crafting and want it to be as complex as possible, so that they can earn status with it. Crafting is there but is not level-based and you cannot pick up a profession. For me that is no problem. Agreed, for others it might be. And, yes, diversion is always a good idea. I do share the concern that there might not be enough of it.

That would be a great over generalizing of the things there are too do.  Exploring and Questing for instance covers a whole range of things to do depending on what kinda quests you take, and how the LORE is written and unfolds immersing you in the world your in.  The variety of experiences  you can have in just those terms can cover 100s of things to do.  You may want to be highly competitive and perfect your ability in PVP in arenas, you may want to setup and run a guild that controls a region waring with other guilds.  You may want to run around saving players from bully PKers, or you may want to be a PKer, you may just like to play chess in a pretty fantasy landcape, or who knows? Just saying that you may not like Crafting is just one aspect of so many others that you dont like.  At high level though you will be able to craft, and you will be able to multiclass at that  point learning skills outside your starter class.  Player housing will probably be added in expansion and player run cities, etc, etc.  They can add all kinds of things to gameworld, and considering all this as Not Much, is belittling all the best games ever made.

Originally posted by ghoul31

ok , so not only is there no crafting, but armor is totally worthless

A guy wearing platemail has the same defense as a naked person. Doesn't seem to make sense.

 

 

   Did Conan ever wear platemail?  Did he ever NEED to wear platemale?  Its called skill and ability.   Arent you totally sick of seeing clones of your character running around at your level wearing the same uber item of your class/level range?  Arent you sick of being forced to wear a stupid hat or pink dress because the stats on those items give you power you do want, but absolutely hate what it makes you look like?  Spellborn solves that problem by making get all their power from the modules you put into them.  Thus you can wield daggers, swords, clubs or staffs and have all the same power while looking the way you want to look.  Some higher level items will have more cosmetic things you want to have to fit your character's image better.  Like items with auras or other queues to signify your high level.  Cosmetic is a completely valid reason to want to get new items.  And getting new sigils are what you use to customize armor and weapons.

Actually the Devs said Crafting will be in the game, they are just not sure if they want it to be something you learn only at high levels or at what level that you can learn crafting skills.  But it wont be a skill you can learn from the start.  They admit it may not be there at release but it is being planned for expansions.  Crafting Glyphs and things like that. 

Originally posted by Raui

I haven't found any major similiarties between Asheron's Call and Spellborn, other than its flexibility.

While I understand that flexibility differs from game to game, the only loose-leaf similiarities is the fact that both games are generally more free in your character's development ... but .. that only goes so far.

I do like what I see about the battle system, I imagine that it would be very competitive .. however, I've found that, while major systems like Character Development and Combat are important to look at, to truthfully replicate a game's dynamics is to replicate its feeling.

 

This game, as welloff and promising as you might think it is, doesn't do that for me.  Now, granted, like many, I only saw one video.  That doesn't mean that I'm right, and it doesn't mean that I'm wrong, it means that I only have limited information.

I hope that you're right and it is much like AC .. but, realisticly, the game of Asheron's Call can never be mimiced by another game developer unless it carries the title, the storyline, the passion, and the dedication that Asheron's Call has from the time of its release to present day.

Sadly, all that AC is missing is the dedication of the developer.  If we had that -- if AC was in the spotlight still -- We wouldn't even need to search for a game that rivals AC in playability style.

 

 

Edit:  Actually, the more I look into it, the more I'm curious.  It seems to promise a lot.. I guess, in the end, only time will tell.  I'll give it a try and probably be back here 6-12 months after its release to talk about what I've discovered.

    How sick are you all of seeing characters in other MMOs of the same level range all carrying the same "Uber Powerful Weapon and Armor" of their class/level.  In Spellborn everyone can look unique because they can wear anything they want anytime and still be as effective.  Any mobs you kill, you can take their armor and weapons for yourself as well, since all mobs will actually have in their inventory what you see on them.  You can constantly be changing how you look based on your mood or whims at the time, rather than being locked down to ugly items you hate but you want its stats.  (The Pope Hat/beret in ScarlettMonestary Anyone?)

There are still Classes though, its not Totally skill based like AC.  But.. at higher levels you can begin learning pretty much any skill from any other class, so you can become multiclassed this way.

Originally posted by Smokeysong

I must say Wolfsheim, that in reviewing your posts on the AoC forums I find that you are not negative at all, that your posts are generally constructive and sound hopeful about AoC. I agree with you on most of your opinions, such as cursed items, displayed names, dancing, and others.

You did on occasion make statements that sounded a bit authoritative about AoC to me, and one post that sounded like you were speaking as though you were speaking for everyone, but I certainly wouldn't discount your opinions because of your 'style'.

You are clearly a very knowledgeable MMO gamer with a lot of experience, and I respect you as such.

One thing that confuses me though, since you describe yourself as an AC kind of guy. One of your posts states clearly that you think healers shouldn't fight and fighters shouldn't heal. Since this is a flexibility found in Spellborn and a main benefit of AC in its ability to not limit you in class definitions, I once again question your view of AC.

I want to make it clear here that I don't know much about Spellborn at all, and that my impression of it is from the one video interview and that I watched it specifically looking for similarities to AC, and might have missed some things about Spellborn I would have liked more. Still, my main points, that Spellborn will be a very different experience than AC or AoC, stand up. But then, though there are many striking similarities between EQ2 and WoW, I find them to be very different games, so maybe that will clue you in to where I'm coming from.

 

Well I was going to reply to the post before this one, then I was shocked to read this one right after so its good that I gave it awhile before checking back here.  Thanks for having looked at my posts on AoC, and I never called ya a troll.  Maybe you inferred that, but its not quite my style to use terms that everyone else Over uses, and Over generalizes and I could tell from that post your a smart reasonable person.  But from your first response it was like the typical Cynical responses you get on all forums when anyone speaks positively about anything,

  Real Time combat, being able to dodge attacks.  Combat that is actually effected by how you move, and requires Skill over dice rolls?  How is that not in the same style that made AC great and mostly unlike any other MMOs?  Why would you think I haven't played it?  And how who are you to say I know nothing about Age of Conan, when I've scarely said anything about it.  Im on the AOC forums, with the same name.  Ive been a member there since the beginning of 2007.  I know about every detail regarding that game, and Im excited about it too, but not so much as Spellborn, which takes alot more new ideas and has tested them and shown them off to great detail, unlike AOC which barely shows us any progress, and the combat is glitchy in most every video I've seen that shows PVP.  But I dont want to argue about one being better, I like them both.  But regardless anyone who's exasperated seeing MMO's all cranked out the same, and who loved AC, should be pretty excited about Spellborn.  Your just being overly Cynical and Apathetic, to just say its a pretty boy game full of hype.  As you've assumed I dont.  You more obviously know nothing about Spellborn, and you probably didnt even watch the video on here with the devs being interviewed like I'd suggested.  Your just trolling.

  Well through the forums on the Spellborn page I pretty much figured out how they are getting over the Netcode issues that hinder most any MMO that tries to emplement a real time FPS type of combat.  One of the things that brings the network to its knees when there are possibly hundreds of players onscreen at once, is the addition of calculating the many trajectories of their  projectiles travelling to either  hit/miss or til the end of its range..  The servers just cant keep up with that many players in battle with all their shots flying around. 

Spellborn eleminates this by eleminating the trajectories of projectiles entirely.  If you put a crosshair on someone and click.  It hits them immediately.  In melee range though you hit at the end of a swing, but at range its instant hit.  Thus you jump around to try to make it harder for someone to keep a crosshair on you in ranged combat.   Thus it seriously cuts down on the server load.

  I was in the WOW launch and it was not ROUGH by any means.  It had the typeical Lag Issues occasional, but a far sight from being a constant issue.  People were having a blast through all of public beta and couldnt wait for opening day starting at Midnight the night before.  It was a blast all through opening day, and other than the infrequent freezes during looting, and a few other lag issues.  It was awesome. 

But again.  STOP REFERRING HELLGATE TO MMOS!   Refer to Guildwars if you must, or just refer to other multiplayer games like Battlefield, Diablo, or even an RTS game, this is no different in regards to the multiplayer aspects.  NO DIFFERENT.  Almost every game thats released today has online multiplayer with a Lobby to login to and find other players.  Thats all you got in Hellgate.  Hellgate's is a 3D graphical lobby.. ooooh.. its suddenly an MMO now because I can see a bunch of player characters in the lobby!  *blissful confusion*

  Wont really matter, once Spellborn is released, its going to leave many MMOs a ghost town, and prolly put alot in Development out of business.  Its a cut throat market, and if a game takes all that money and time to develope it should at least be as good as an average single player game.

  It used to be an excuse for MMOs to get released incomplete and with much simpler mechanics for the added bonus of being able to play Massively in an open world with thousands of other players.  We compromised alot of gameplay for that.  Its been over a decade, we're tired of compromising gameplay for Massivity.  We dont have to anymore.  Spellborn shows this, AoC might show it.  AEON, maybe.. TR totally doesnt and stagnates in Mundane mediocrity.  Its generic all the way.  We want more, we expect it, and we wont keep the old junk.  There's all kinds of new tech to appreciate out there.  The gaming market is Booming.  Bioware sure was bought up by EA, for 860 Million! thats alot.  EA can afford it because the market kicks ass.  Crytek gets bought by Microsoft.. so what.  If the games are great.  Its for the best.  We aren't FORCED to buy crappy games, if one huge corporation pumps out generic crap, like SOE and NCSOFT, then we ignore them and go elsewhere.  They get a horrible reputation, and thats that.  Free Market baby! It always rules.  We make the choices, we make the rules, we spend the money or hold it back.  TR will fail, sadly for Richard Gariote who was a hero of mine, but then he lost his creative edge a long time ago, and cant refine and polish his developer design concepts to keep up or push forward technology.  Hes like an old 80s heavy Metal band whos still playing the old 80s Heavy Metal espowsing how much THEY ROCK!

  I would not worry about Spellborn getting attention.  Word of mouth is a great thing and the most accurate representation of how good a game is.  This game wont be able to go unnoticed if it has even half of what it seems to have.  It will sweep through the MMORPG world like a wildfire the closer it gets to release and then moreso afterward.  We can all just sit back and relax and watch as the fire catches.  No need to annoyling draw attention to it.  Quality speaks for itself and cant be ignored.  I feel sorry for all the other developers out there honestly.  This is going to be like a tsunami hitting their player bases leaving ghost towns in many MMOs and possibly putting some in development out of business before they begin.  But thats of course if the things we've seen in the game come to fruition. 

  I still dont know how they could make the net code able to handle FPSMMORPG requirements.  But if they've cleared that seemingly insurmountable hurdle.  The rest is Butter. 

  Im currently playing The Witcher, which is an outstanding RPG btw, and noticed it has a similar multitiered combo system similar to Spellborn.  Spellborns is still much better and more FPS type, but The Witcher has 6 tiers of fighting abilities per style, that can be chained together.  Its a blast really.  But again I believe Spellborn will be much better.  The Witcher is outstanding as a single player RPG though, and if  you've played with tiered skills in it, you have some idea of the tiered skill system in some ways like those in Spellborn.

Funny thing is, its not even an MMO.. There is no HUGE server load to worry about.  There are maybe max 100 people who can login to any one server.  These same servers runs tons of battlenet type games.  And this is just one of them.  To be caught so ineptly with there pants down is another example of how unfinished this game is, and why they cover over the unfinished aspects with promises for Subscriber content over time.  Its a freebie excuse to develope things for a complete game slowly after already getting paid up front $50. 

But maybe you can enjoy the $20 aspects of the game that you have right now and make the most of it.

Ill be happy to hold out for Crysis and happily play The Witcher for the moment. 

    RPG.. What makes an RPG? 

It comes from Pen & Paper D&D type games started by Gary Gygax.  Its not just playing a ROLE anymore since every game has you playing a ROLE.  Its about having a character with statistics governing its abilities such as Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc that increase over time as the character gains experience.  Its formed the basis for 100s of thousands of games to come out since.  An RPG has to have leveling of your character, the ability to equip different items, and classically to play as different types of classes, although not always.   Oldschool RPG games use dicerolls for most everything.  But they dont have to stay Oldschool to remain RPGs. such as Spellborn which drops all dicerolls, and allows pure action and use of skill to matter and pretty much reworks all the old RPG conventions in very interesting ways, especially as an MMORPG.

Diablo IS an RPG.  Its just not one with much depth of story and character development other than statistics based.  The characters have no personality.  Its purely for action gaming.  Thus Action RPG, Hack N Slash. is that genre.

Just like music can have sub-genres.  Like Electronic music has Trance, Breakbeat, Jungle, Ambient, and a slew of other specifications.  RPGs can and do also. 

MMO's also have specifics. Like MMORPG.   And while Hellgate fits the RPG part, it fails in the MMO part.  There is nothing Massively Multiplayer about it.  Its just a multiplayer game like most all the other multiplayer games out there like Counterstrike or Halo.  Having a 3D lobby where a few more players can hang out, doesnt make it an MMO and you'd be a naieve to believe it is at all.   Its not a persistant online gameworld.  It doesnt require near the work an MMO takes to establish and maintain. 

 A better reference for the graphic / art style comes from the developers themselves.  The style other than from a certain Dutch designer.  Comes mostly from the artist Brian Froud, who did much of the design for films like The Dark Crystal and Labyrinth, as well as paintings in many fantasy art books.

Labyrinth & Dark Crystal are my favorite fantasy films.  The art design alone draws me to watch them over and over.  Aside from all the other great things Spellborn is innovating that Im amazed with.  The Art Design probably took my breath away the most for creating a feel from these films.  All the textures in Spellborn are Hand Painted.  Thats just incredible to me.  I freakin love it!  I even own a autographed art book from Brian Froud.  The book of Strange Stains and Mysterious Smells. Check out Frouds Website.

Worldoffroud.com