Originally posted by kaylors

I'm a roleplayer- I love stepping into the shoes of my character and becoming him or her or kra for a while. I love being immersed in the world of the game, reveling in it's rich backstory, amazing, original setting and enjoy communicating with others. I don't want to talk to other players. I want to talk to a dwarf, or a klyros, or a Nolthrir and perhaps go out with a hot diaboli woman(a dermorian can dream, can't he?).

What everyone here (and all through the forums) who have left negative comments must understand is that this is a roleplaying game-

Utmoon - What you need to understand is that most of the people deriding PS are Roleplayers, and once enjoyed the game as you do now. In my personal history with PS, I was a writer, then roleplayer, then organizer of player events, then developer (despite the fact that my name still has not been added to the credits). I was considered to be one of the best roleplayers around by many.

Also, can you show me one game out there that is not led by a corporate team with millions at their disposal and the ability to hire people to work for them? PS is entirely free, no strings attached. The people working on it have a life of their own, their own personal problems, headaches, worries and responsibilities. Yet they find the time to work to deliver such a marvelous game. They're doing it coz they love it and expecting them to do any more is pure foolishness. They never asked anyone to play the game. All they did was say, "Hey, we made this interesting game. Would you like to play it?" If you don't want to play, then just don't.

Given that I was an Associate Developer in the Settings Department assigned the tasks of writing the history of the game through books and quests, I feel that I have more insight than most other people can lay claim to. The development atmosphere is controlled, suffocating, paranoid, and downright poisonous at times. Being on the team destroyed my love for the game, which had already started to wain as a player fed up with the lack of features supporting actual roleplaying using game mechanics. Enforcing OOC/IC chat does not count as a mechanic, and is the only thing at this point that makes the game 'roleplaying' at all. The rest is the community. I would like to say that though the environment on the team was terrible (due to the leadership of the director), there were some great people there who I was good friends with. We all deserved better.

I sincerely hope the development team will never get frustarted and say something like, "Aw, heck! Let's just give them a feature rich game that doesnt care about RP and has an IG mall to get us some moolah." Coz that would be sad day for people like me.

That sad day has come and gone, my friend. You have missed the passing of many a level 'cap' increases, Guildhouse 'auctions' to suck money out of the game, 'nerfing' of mines and ores to make it harder for people to level to the character they want to play, and many other things. You were not around when the NPC chat system was replaced with a more 'mainstream' menu system to draw players in from the big games. You did not see when easy 'grind' features were focused on more than more difficult roleplay supporting mechanics. Simply put, you have not been around long enough to see how roleplaying is gutted in favor of the leveling, questing, and item grind.

And to everyone else who still thinks that this game is rubbish, I humbly beg you to keep your opinions to yourself. I have been very civil and courteous here in this reply. Know that usually I'm as rough as a dwarf.

All opinions should be listened to, for or against any topic. I give my opinion on PS as a warning to others. I tell them what I know and have experienced so that they do not go blindly as I did. If they still chose to follow the game and like it, that is fine by me. If they chose to become a dev and enjoy that as well, more power to them. I will never stand up and say "Don't play this game!". I simply say what I wish someone had told me before I wasted so much time and effort trying to make PS a better roleplaying game, and in the end, failing. Everyone who has tried to make PS better for roleplaying so far has also failed. It is just not what it is billed as.

Screenshot from a few hours ago. Nick info blacked out to protect the user from any vindictive actions.

I believe he told Talad to start being more civil, and things just went downhill from there.

As per posting dishonest things, the only one I have seen doing that is Talad himself.  A log was posted over at LGT of him firing a follow director and being completely unreasonable, which Talad called a lie. Later in the PlaneShift  IRC channel, he admitted that he did not even read the log, so did not know if it was true or false (I have the log of him admitting he lied, but there has been enough log posting in this thread for now). His defense? Well, it should never have been leaked. I guess that means it should not count?

In his own prospect channel, he lied about the reason the other director was fired, slandered him, and threatened to fire anyone who stood up of him. I have seen that log as well.

As a note about those 700,000 players who have tried the game and only a few turning into haters being a good turn out... I would say that out of 700,000 ACCOUNTS (many many people made more than one account) created, my best guess is that less than 3000 players play the game in a week, most of them being people who try the game for less than an hour, then move on. My guess is based on a data mine of the server a few years back when Talad bragged about having 340,000 accounts created. If the same trends continued, the projected numbers would be as follows:

About 700,000 accounts created.

Accounts never used: 220,000  (Yes, that is about 1/3 never used)

Characters used less than an hour: 280,000

Characters used more than 10 hours: 30,000 (remember, 4 characters can be made on each account)

If we crunch the numbers, and give the benefit of the doubt and say on average that each person created two characters (so 140,000 players for the 280k number), that means that 360,000 people never played the game more than an hour, if at all. The rest drop off well before 10 hours. Given how easy it is to log 10 hours on a game, ESPECIALLY an MMO based on grinding, those are pretty dismal numbers. planeshift looks to be the ultimate revolving door MMO. If Talad wants to call me a liar, troll, or whatever like he is fond of doing to anyone who does not agree with him, then ask him to poll the database again to get the true numbers and post them somewhere. My guess on what his answer will be? Something like “I don’t have the time to waste on haters.”

His typical responses seem to follow this pattern:

Indignation.

Accusation of lies.

Calling everyone trolls or malcontents.

Threats.

When all that fails, childish attacks and name calling when cornered.

I am also going to assume he is going to try to assassinate my character and say I can't be trusted since I worked for him for over a year without signing his precious NDA. I then retracted my original work a year after I quit when I saw his true colors and total disrespect of the Open Source community. The main reason I quit is because he has created an unhealthy work environment full of paranoia and draconian control. I would like to see someone on the team come forth and say that that has changed, but one of the rules of the NDA is to NEVER talk about what goes on in the team, especially if it is bad.

I don't recall what Radakan is or was. Don't remember the name at all, actually.
 

What he means by 'competing' projects are those projects that might draw 'his' (yes, he has called them HIS) volunteer contributors away from planeshift. Actually, the term he used was 'stealing'.

So, the line should be read as "No talking about projects that might steal MY volunteers away."

It is interactive art. And like any art, some will will never "get it".

Thanks for the answers so far. I would like to see a minimum of about 100 answers in total, if possible, to make sure there is a good spread of the different kinds of players represented.

The 'grind' can be 'content' if there is a specific purpose behind it. Olympic swimmers 'grind' training to try to win the gold. Soldiers do the same, but for the end goal of protecting what they are assigned to. People push themselves hard in college to get that higher paying job.

It is rare to find people 'in real life' who 'grind' just for the purpose of getting to the end of their skill tree. There is always some other goal they have for wanting those skills. Most people just get better at what they do by doing their job, or partaking in their hobbies.

Does that belong in an MMO? Yes, but also no. Some people very much like the 'grind' and watching their skills raise. This is fun to them, so it should not be eliminated. However, the grind should be a side feature, not the main event. Games are designed right now so that High level players have no use for lower level players. 'Endgames' are designed for levels. If your DPS is not high enough, you are useless.

The system is brilliant, if you look at it from the business side of things. You basically have people paying to work for you. It is the old Tom Sawyer Whitewash trick.

PlaneShift does not have a class system, so any quests would have to be based on individual skills, which is a possibility. I suppose if we wanted to make a 'ranger' type quest, we could require a certain level in all of the 'ranger' type skills. That is something I will keep in mind. Thank you, and keep the votes coming in.

Thank you for your answers so far. This is not just an idle post, as we are currently discussing the direction future quests will go. I will be using the answers to this poll to lend weight to the preferences stated.

This is pretty straight forward. I am a quest writer for the game PlaneShift, and would like the opinions of the greater masses in dealing with quests. Why do you do quests?

Greetings. One of the members of the PlaneShift development team has been given the honor of speaking at a Google tech talk. The person in question is longtime PS developer Keith Fulton (otherwise known as Vengeance), who is responsible for a large amount of the PS code.

See the talk here: PlaneShift Google Tech Talk

The video is 59 minutes long, and briefly covers most points of PlaneShift development. If you have ever been interested in the inner working of the PlaneShift team and the structure of our client and severs (in brief), this is a good opportunity to learn about it.

Originally posted by Poison_Adele

I agree Tuxide--the problem comes when the powerlevelers are intent on disrespecting and ruining the games of the roleplayers. Or try to shove them out.

I would amend that to 'the problem comes when the powerlevelers OR roleplayers become intent on disrespecting and ruining the gameplay of the other side.'

As with any game, there are extremists on both sides. I have played beside RPes and PLers, and have had no problems with those that showed respect for the other. I have also had issues with both RPers and PLers who constantly tried to impose their way of playing on others (called Trolls and RPnazis, but seen by me as the same thing). Most players in PS play the leveling game as well as roleplay.

The only time your game can be ruined is if you let it be done to you. Report any intentional harassment from either side to a GM, and ignore the offenders as best you can until they are dealt with. In any other case, show your fellow players courtesy, understanding, and respect for their chosen style of play. This applies to all games.

Thanks for the "Congrats", Nagorl. We work hard to make the game fun for many types of players. Also thanks to Poison Adele for enjoying the roleplaying aspects of the game, which the Settings and GM team work equally hard at promoting.

pstruth is not Mathy. His writing is too intelligent and he is not self-depreciating enough. If he was, these conversations would go more like:

"Look at all the problems the devs cause and nobody listens to me. The Devs are so mean."

<ensuing argument>

"Please stop talking about it now. I did not mean to cause any trouble. It is all my fault. I am sorry everyone hates me. I can see I am not wanted here."

-In PMs after that to all the people that argued with her:

"I am older than you and by default that makes me more mature. You need to treat me with more respect and listen to what I say because I have earned it. If you do not agree with me, it is because you hate me."

*shrugs*

You want proof? I'll send you the IRC logs in a few days when I have the time. Of course, you will no doubt question the validity of the logs, hell bent as you are on proving yourself right at all costs. But if you do, you would be calling me a liar, and your opinion will mean nothing to myself or anyone who knows me. I'll also link you to her 'woe is me' posts, since you missed them. I don't know if any of 'M's (to go with the flow) posts were deleted on the forum, but I would not doubt it.

A thought for you consideration: A lot of Devs are rude because of you directly. Your posts are so full of assumed bull that I have seen more than one Dev just write players off completely after reading a few. You have personally helped make the situation worse. That does not apply to me, as you can see by all of my other posts on the PS forum (none of which have been deleted). I have no rudeness problem. 'M' was a special case, and I do not take back or apologize. My father taught me to be honest in all things, including never saying you are sorry if you do not mean it. That, also, is a lie.

Ironic. You hold up a single post  as 'proof' of a continuing problem, yet ignore 2000+ others proving otherwise. Then you take the face value of a bunch of posts that mean nothing on their own and basically ignore the people who actually know the person in question, and even imply they might not be telling the truth. 

You brought in a questionable witness to try to vilify a well-liked and highly respected member of the PS community to both players and Devs. Your bluff was called, and you cling to the straws of 'evidence' you have, demanding others give you a mountain to prove otherwise. You hide your identity with nicks and proxies and expect people to believe you while you try to call BS on others who come in here without masks. You claim to 'understand' the minds of the Devs, yet also claim to avoid them. You try to defend a forum dweller you do not even know, not even questioning -why- someone might be 'rude' to that person. You claim that all negative comments are deleted on the PS forum, somehow denying the existence of an entire forum set aside for complaints.

And you claim the Devs are in denial? For someone claiming to know the 'truth', you are sure keeping yourself in the dark. The more you write, the more it becomes clear that you don't even interact with the PS community anymore. Your ignorance on some basic knowledge is telling.

I think we have found what is negative about this game, and it has little to do with the actual game itself. Look at the number of people who have posted to this forum, and figure out the ratio of positive and negative posters. You will find that the 'people' you represent are a very small number, and most of the 'negative' starts with them.

There is a difference between truth and honesty. You are not being honest to your readers. You are not being honest to the players and Devs of PS. And most of all, you are not being honest to yourself. It is becoming sad to watch.

*takes a seat on Dr. Pstruth's couch*

Oh doctor, please save me from myself!  I... I can't stop it. If nothing is done... I might... I might be RUDE to someone who deserves it again!

*yawn*

Keep your backyard psychology to yourself, please. And seriously, quoting my entire post for a couple of wild assumptions? Really slick. I am sure folks were too stupid to read it the first time. I am glad you reminded them.

I pity your blindness in this matter. You dug up the one time I was 'rude' to an 'average player' who was 'within her rights' to make demands, and put it up on display. Well done. You should run for politics. And the ignorance you show is only compounded by "You have a mindset that there is no problem as long as no one is talking about the problem." Seriously? Don't ever become a reporter, Sherlock. You might swallow your own gumshoe. Anyone who spends a tiny amount of time around me knows I am the very first to point out problems.

You talk a lot about people you don't know personally. Your entire statement proves that not only do you not know me or the other Devs, you are completely clueless.

As for my 'rudeness', it only comes into play with someone who is doing uncalled for damage in the first place. I see you did not respond to the details I provided of your example 'average player'. Did you actually look her previous posts up this time? How about mine? Bring on the 'evidence' of this persistent rudeness. You bring out one post and parade it around shouting "Oh look at what they done!" Pathetic. Well, since I know you aren't going to show the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I will.

Bask in my rudeness glory. Behold the terror that I inflict on players:  hydlaa.com/smf/index.php

Then seriously get a grip.

I knew a woman once who tried to get a man arrested for shooting a dog. She gave a sob story about how cruel the man was to his animals, and how he would starve them. Then he would just take them out and shoot them for fun. It almost worked. The police showed up at his door and were about to put him in cuffs when one of his other dogs walked around the building, healthy and happy as could be. This gave the police pause, and they found out the truth in further questioning. All the animals the man owned were just as happy and healthy as the first. The man's best dog had gotten into a fight with a rabid raccoon, and there was nothing to be done about it but put the animal down. The woman had had interests in the man, but he turned her down. This was to be her revenge against him. In the end, she spent some time in jail herself after a hefty fine.

Moral? Be sure what you are accusing people of is actually true. Otherwise, it is bstruth.

Oh dear. I have acted unprofessional, and someone yelled at me for it.  Of course, this would offend me if I actually was a professional. I am not going to walk on eggshells just because "Oh, convention says it is bad!" I have always been vocal about my opinions, and that is not going to change. I am also not going to stand by while my character is placed in question with one-sided 'evidence'. You want to pretend players deserve, NO! are entitled to better treatment than volunteer Devs in a free game, you are welcome to your delusion.

Your further comments about this forum almost makes me give a chortle of great amusement. Most people who visit this forum are end-user players. Vocal, loud, and self-righteous players (yes, I am was one of those). They are not future Devs. Guess what, most Devs do not listen to forums at all, this and similar ones especially. Why? Because despite what you think, you represent  a tiny fraction of the actual player base. The main money for big games comes from people who do not visit forums at all. They quietly pay out their money and do the things they like, which does not include grandstanding on forums.

pstruth is one of these, and is trying so desperately to make his voice heard that he is drowning out his actual cause. Is he making the Dev-player relationship any better? No. A lot of the anger towards players comes specifically from pstruth and people like him.  For many Devs, it comes down to "If players are going to be like that, to hell with them." That is really sad, as he does not even represent 1% of players. He is just one of the loudest. He is not 'the voice of the people'. And neither are you, klyros.

I would like to point out now that more people have joined the Setting's, Art, and Engine department in the past few years because of people like Xillix and myself, not in spite of us. All the garbage that is brought up in this forum is propaganda, pure and simple. It is a twisting of the truth and how the PS community 'really feels'. Don't believe me? Well, I would like to say it actually matters what you believe, but it does not. Like most other forum dwellers (including me),  you are not a greater part of the game playing population.

The Devs should treat me nicer on a forum! *cries a river*

Go ahead and cry. While you are pouring your hearts out on a forum, players will be playing and doing what they enjoy. Devs will be Devving, and doing what they enjoy. And you will be here crying to a crowd of people who don't really matter, playing the 'Voice of the People' to a people that do not hear you, and would not agree if they did. In fact, I have begun to wonder why I have posted here at all, as I would not want 90% or more of the people who visit the MMORPG forums to become a part of the PS community. It is a nice place, and I would hate to see it ruined.

With that said, you may keep your soap box. You may continue your word twisting and so-called 'how the devs should act' speeches. You may even continue to make out of context quotes. Just remember that the "We" you speak of is a very small number of  "you". And "you" are not good enough for PlaneShift.

Arrogance, you say? Call it what you will. After the thousands of hours I have volunteered , hundreds of thousands of words I have donated, money I have paid for a better internet connection so that I can contribute better, and more nights without sleep than I can recall just to improve a game for others to play (since I no longer have time myself most of the time), I am damned entitled to it. And, to be rude for a moment, anyone who says anything otherwise can piss off.

*edit- Why do I post here? Maybe I just like to argue with self-righteous folks standing on soapboxes and pretending to be the voice of the crowd. Everyone has their faults. I can't let people be fools without pointing it out to them.

Mathy has not, does not, and will never represent the 'average player'. She has been in constant contact with the Devs for the past year at least. She has been told many times very nicely what is being done. Whatever the answer, it is never enough for her. She plays the chronic victim. I and others (Devs and players alike) have had to put up with her incessant 'woe is me, if the entire world does not agree with me and pity me, it must hate me personally'. Many times the conversation (with other players, not Devs) was forced to center on her, with everyone trying to convince her that just because someone had a different opinion, it did not mean she was hated. Those conversations generally ended with "I can see I am not wanted here. I am sorry you hate me." -Log out-. It came to the point where it became so bad that other players would leave IRC as soon as she showed up if they did not have her on their ignore list already,  and we received many requests to ban her from IRC, which was done.

I have interacted with her personally many times, being very helpful. She asked that I read her story and give advice on how to improve her writing style. Apparently, that did not mean make any suggestions or find any flaws. As soon as I pointed out how some things could improve, she immediately started saying "I am sorry you hate it," and proceeded to go behind my back and say how everyone -loved- her story except for me, because I was mean, did not like her, and pointed out how "bad her story was". She went as far as publicly saying she would never write again because I hated her story so much, -despite- me saying many times the story was good, but there were some improvements that could be made in the style. Incidentally, she took my advice and did improve, but still tells people how much I hated her story, and by default, her as well.

I suggest you look back at her previous posts before you take one comment out of context. I also suggest you look up the term "Playing the victim". Mathy is not the average player. She is not even a typical player. If she was, then I would find some other place to ply my skills. In the end, forums represent a minor 10% of actual game players. They do not represent the larger populous that does not even visit the forum. They are just more vocal, more self-righteous, and often do not even play the game at all.

My comment stands. With what Mathy already knew (which is far more than the 'average player'), how personally she knows and interacts with Xillix and other Devs, and how she has personally gone on crusades to try to get people NOT to join the Dev team, she deserved a far harsher response.

pstruth, get some facts.

Both sides are right. The OP is right for reasons I will explain in a bit, and the counter is right because certain behavior is allowed to get the bigger crowds. The desire to draw in the largest player base possible means reducing the game to the lowest common denominator.

On the other hand, certain behavior can only manifest once a community reaches a critical mass. To break it down to a basic social level in -any- situation lets look at school. In rural grade schools, you will often have and average of 30 children per class. Out of those 30, you might have 10 followers (easily influenced by other gorups), 5 'populars' (the ones the everyone wants to be), 3 preppies (those that think they are better than everyone else),  6 average Joes (who get along with the other groups), 3 oddballs, and 3 'bad eggs'. A natureal ballance is made in that no clique has enough numbers to be able to exist on their own without making itself an outcast from the others. The exception is sometimes the 'bad eggs', but not always. They will generally try to blend in as well. Given their small numbers in a small group, the bad eggs do not affect the other groups to a large degree.

Now step forward to High School, where many of these smaller groups are thrust together. Instead of your 30, you now have 300 (or far more in most cases). However, the equation does not carry over. The 'populars' find themselves in direct competition with other 'populars', remixing and thrusting the lesser populars into the 'followers'. The preppies mix better, making a larger group that can exist on their own little delusional pedestal, but also cast members into the followers. The oddballs mix somewhat, but some of them will find a place in one of the other groups, reducing their overall percentage. The average Joes merge and break off into smaller groups of friends, taking in oddballs and followers alike, but never become a single unit. Now, the bad eggs, on the other hand, will stick to each other like magnets, conflicting with each other, but never mixing with any of the other groups. This 'bad element' is the single force out of all the groups that can 'ruin' a place or start to enforce a certain kind of behavior. All they have to do is start hanging out somewhere, and the other groups will often leave. The 'followers' that remain are influenced by the bad eggs, degrading their behavior to something unacceptable to their former group.

The same cycle goes on in much larger groups as well, and the internet adds the extra element of anonymity, letting people's inner 'bad eggs' out. The larger the net group becomes, the more powerful the base elements become. In the case of MMOs, the 'bad element' moves freely between games, finding more members as the popularity grows. By default, this drives out the other groups, or makes them adapt to stay. It takes a lot of effort to control the bad element and its influences, so game makers generally only target the worst of it. That makes lower behavior become the accepted social environment.