news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx

Washington: US economists are generally agreed that America's worst economic downturn since the Great Depression is over, but an average American is unlikely to feel things are significantly better anytime soon.

The Wall Street Journal's survey of top economists, published Wednesday, found that 57 percent believe the recession is already over, while another 23 percent believe that the economy will turn in the next month or two.

Most economists now expect growth in the gross domestic product, the broad measure of the nation's economic activity, of about three percent or more in the period of July through September.

But the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER), the body of economists charged with officially setting the start and the end of each recession, won't pronounce a start of the recovery until next year at the earliest, CNNMoney.com said.

Its statement that the 2001 recession ended in November of that year didn't come until 18 months later, it noted. Its pronouncement that the current recession had started in December 2007 didn't come until 12 months after the start. So by the time the NBER says anything about a recovery, it will already be well established.

The closest to an official pronouncement of the end of the recession came in the statement from the Federal Reserve Wednesday that it sees the economy as "levelling out" following its long decline.

Originally posted by popinjay

 

Buzz,

Republicans haven't wanted to have a debate, discussion, allusion to, or mention of ANY form of national healthcare... single payer, public or by fairy, since Nixon in 1974. Heck, they haven't even pretended to until Boehner said a few months ago that the Republican's had their "own" plan on television, and when people read it there wasn't ONE dollar figure in it at all.

 

 

That is no mystery and is all factual. There are only a few in the country who even seem to be aware of American history as it pertains to this serious matter.

Oh, I know. Some people don't seem to get it though. They don't even recognize that most of the complaints have nothing to do with health care. To the GOP this is just a political campaign. Since the country is concerned with health care reform, the GOP is trying to attach their social conservative platform to this reform legislation. Oh, sure, they attempt to use fiscal conservative speak, but Obama beat them to it by clearly stating this bill will be deficit neutral. The GOP has no leg to stand on, so they are rallying the republican base through misonformation with social spin.

Originally posted by Faxxer

Originally posted by DailyBuzz

The point of this thread is to display how the GOP has no ideas. They intend to allow our health care system to continue on the unsustainable path it's on because fighting it politically is scoring them points with the conservative base. They have injected the narrative of liberal/conservative wedge issues.

Let's face it, the GOP has no solutions. The only chance they have to defeat a measure that will benefit nearly all Americans is to link the stand-by wedge issues, that the GOP has used to scare conservatives for well over a decade, in with this legislation. Just look at the people yelling at town halls. They scream about illegals, abortion, assisted suicide, sex changes, unborn right to life, etc.

It's quite obvious that they don't want to debate health care reform. If they were commited to reform, they'd introduce their own plan. No, what they want is to tie wedge issues into these health reform bills.

Oh I must have missed it, I thought you made up complete fabricated text in your OP.

Not at all. This information comes directly from the GOP health care reform proposal. I did take some liberty with paraphrasing or interpretation, but you understand the need for that, I'm sure.

I had no idea GOP quotes were used, I usually include a link for the coolaid drinkers.

When the town hall yellers start using verbatim quotes from the health care reform bills in their questions, I'll start using verbatim quotes from the GOP.

"They scream illegals, abortion, assisted suicide, sex changes, unborn"....that's EXACTLY what this health bill is about and you know it...don't play coy. 

See what I mean. You're my prime example.

Palin followed up her death panel comments with more info to back up her claim but i didn't see one person on here try and refute it...boy i wanted to start that thread too.

I don't follow Palin. Please list whichever fabrications she supports here and I'll happily prove her dead wrong.

The point of this thread is to display how the GOP has no ideas. They intend to allow our health care system to continue on the unsustainable path it's on because fighting it politically is scoring them points with the conservative base. They have injected the narrative of liberal/conservative wedge issues.

Let's face it, the GOP has no solutions. The only chance they have to defeat a measure that will benefit nearly all Americans is to link the stand-by wedge issues, that the GOP has used to scare conservatives for well over a decade, in with this legislation. Just look at the people yelling at town halls. They scream about illegals, abortion, assisted suicide, sex changes, unborn right to life, etc.

It's quite obvious that they don't want to debate health care reform. If they were commited to reform, they'd introduce their own plan. No, what they want is to tie wedge issues into these health reform bills.

I think my favorite is the cop who thinks he's overdosing on marijuana. However, I believe the Leslie Smith call runs a close second on the UNEFINBELIEVABLE scale. This man is seriously disturbed, even though he reminds me of an mattress salesman.

www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1625300.html

Click "Play Audio Clip" over on the left side (9 minutes).

Leslie Edward Smith dialed 911 Sunday afternoon and calmly told a dispatcher he had just shot somebody in his house who would not get out, according to a recording of the call made public Tuesday.

"I shot this girl who been living in my house," Smith said. "She won't get out. So I shot her."

Wake sheriff's deputies have charged Smith, 62, of 3 Kelly Pine Court in Wake Forest, with murder in the shooting death of Jaquelyn Larue Gore, 48, of the same address.

The 911 recording released by the sheriff's office details the minutes after Smith allegedly shot Gore until deputies arrived at the home.

Smith told the 911 operator that he had put the gun down on a table. Gore was seriously wounded, probably dead, he said.

"Is she beyond help?" the dispatcher wanted to know.

"She should be," Smith answered. "I shot her point blank in the chest."

The dispatcher suggested he perform CPR. But Smith declined, saying he just wanted the sheriff's office to get Gore out of his house.

"You got to try and help her," the dispatcher said.

"I don't want to help her," Smith replied. "She's dead."

The dispatcher again suggested he attempt to revive her.

"This is ridiculous," Smith mumbled under his breath. "I just shot her."

When deputies arrived at the home and ordered Smith to come out with his hands up, he complied.

He remains at the Wake County jail without bail, a jail spokesman said Tuesday.

Originally posted by Porfat

Oh wait they love their great health care system so much that they get on ricky boats to try to reach our land of substandard health care.   

Cuba socialist policies have ran that country to the ground.   I don't want the same to happen to the US.

Shocker! Yes, people travel to foreign nations to receive health care. At least 500,000 of them are Americans.

Medical Tourism

McKinsey and Company estimates that medical tourism gross revenues were more than $40 billion worldwide in 2004, with projections slated for $100 billion by 2012. The National Center for Policy Analysis, a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, says that an estimated 500,000 Americans traveled abroad for treatment in 2005.

Looks like the major health insurance providers are looking for a way to incorporate medical tourism into their business model:

CIGNA HealthCare is another health plan considering how to approach medical tourism. “In general, we view medical tourism as an evolutionary step in health care consumerism—promoting greater choice, access to affordable health care, and cost transparency,” says Jacquelyn Aube, vice president of product development, CIGNA HealthCare, Bloomfield, Connecticut.

Again, if you like your plan, keep it. Honestly, who doesn't want to take a trip to Thailand for a heart valve replacement?

Originally posted by Porfat

What part of 11 trillion (a mind boggling number) in debt do you guys not understand.   The health care plan will cost another 1 trillion dollars.  Or is that another Republican lie.    D

Yes, it is another republican lie. What part of "deficit neutral" can't you grasp? I'm guessing it's the "neutral" part.

The bill would be complete right now if congress was willing to add a trillion dollars onto the national debt.

Well, it has arrived. We've been picking over the democrats proposal for several months, and even though the GOP has stated many times they had no intention of offering their own health care reform bill, they finally decided to put forward a proposal.

Now, this plan differs greatly from the democrats legislation, and I have a few problems with what they intend to do. It seems they have taken some pretty aggregious steps toward consumer advocacy. I'd be willing to bet that private insurers are going to raise all manners of hell over this plan.

For instance:

Page 22:

Private insurance companies will have to offer free "I support the troops" bumper sticker and American Flag refrigerator magnet to anyone denied coverage.

Page 38:

Private health insurance premiums will double. Any family who's premiums increase more than 100% will be entered into a drawing for a free 7 days/6 nights trip to the Creation Museum.

Page 45:

Primary care giver co-pays will increase from 15% to 25%. In an effort to offset this expense, in-network physicians will offer 10% off coupons for all smokeless tobacco products.

Page 357:

In the event your private insurance policy is rescinded, your insurance provider will keep your premiums. However, you will receive a free pair of custom alligator cowboy boots.

Page 410:

Anyone signing up for the "exclusively name-brand prescriptions" private plan will receive a complimentary gun cabinet.

Page 765:

Your private health insurance provider will determine what procedures your physicians are allowed to submit. This will of course be underscored by an in-house arbitrary pricing guide that determines many are unnecessary. We extend to you, the consumer, the right to bitch and moan in any cases where critical procedures are not covered.

Congratulations on not being dead!

Originally posted by Dekron

If it is true, then that guy needs to be booted out.

However, I will wait for a real news outlet to report it, not a blog from NORML.

I've known Tommy Benton for quite some time. This is his position and, around here, he's cheered for it. He certainly won't be booted from office.

Around here, the small town police forces are so corrupt that marijuana law reform advocates don't dare speak out locally. I've had my person and vehicles searched countless time without a warrant. I've been taken to the station for interrogation 4 times without being arrested. I've had my upholstery ripped apart as plain clothes police searched my vehicle for over 2 hours, finding nothing. I have NEVER been charged with an illegal possession crime.

Our nuanced representatives live in the 20th century, the rest are still stuck in the 12th.

Originally posted by declaredemer

The intense dislike for Obama perplexes me.  Karl Marx, e.g., was horrified over working conditions in England.  He had contempt for the privileged.  He would of course change politics in the world forever.  Stalinism, Marxism, Socialism, Leninism, Maoism, etc. are generally all grouped together as the same but they are not.

 

I was working out and watching CNN teayellers (or town yellers or whatever) talk about how she fears the United States is becoming "socialist like Russia."  WHERE WERE THESE YELLERS before the decision to go to war with Iraq?  Where were they when their own sons, daughters, and neighbors were cast-off to fight? Where were they when we nationalized banks, the car industry, and credit default insurance?  Why were they not yelling them?  But, when we want to FIX THEIR HEALTH CARE, mon dieu! they emerge!

 

Why this sudden, intense fear of "socialism"?  This seems to ME to be perplexing. 

It's just politics. Republicans rule fear and smear. In the case of health care, they also have endless financial backing.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Painted on Rep. David Scott (D) sign not long after a town hall meeting where he supported health care reform.

 

Earlier he had received letters referring to him as N-Word David Scott. (He is black)

 

Every day you hear more and more about stuff like this and the above.  How much further is it going to go?

Actually, that meeting had nothing to do with health care, it was about a highway project that would tear down dozens of minority homes. That's why he was so upset when people showed up to discuss health care. It wasn't even his town hall meeting. People opposing health care reform just showed up to hijack the forum.

In any case, it's hard to say whether the graffiti and letter were in reference to his position on health care or his position on this highway project. . .or the simple fact that he's an outspoken minority, holding a position of power, here in Dixieland.

Over the past 10 years:

• median wages have remained static

• health insurance costs have increased at twice the rate of inflation

• health insurance premiums have doubled

• out-of-pocket costs (deductibles, co-pays) have doubled

Are we beginning to see the trend here?

People are spending twice as much on health insurance and health care, while their wages remain the same. This is not an issue of $5 coffee, $300 Cardigan sweaters, brand new Lexus' and McMansions. This is an issue of people who were working poor, but getting by, a decade ago and now they live in a tent community, primarily because of our profit based health care system. If you make $200k/year, and spend $12k on health insurance, you may be alright. If you make $45k/year, and spend $12k on health insurance, you're likely 90 days away from living in a tent.

This is why we can't refer to health care the same way we refer to consumer goods or commodities. These are American lives we're dealing with. It's not like the decision between a 3 bedroom house or a 2 bedroom house, that's an obvious decision, depending on what you can afford. When it comes to the wellness of yourself, and your family, health insurance isn't a luxury item, it's a necessity, which is why it is the perfect vehicle for fleecing the American people.

According to SEC filings, the top 10 health insurance providers increased their profits 428% over the past decade (from $2.4 billion to $12.9 billion). America's working poor have been priced out of a healthy life and a sense of security. America's middle class is currently under attack.

We need health care reform to break this trend.

COP's August report:

www.youtube.com/watch

Originally posted by Teala

LOL - if this doesn't make you laugh - you're dead.

Watch this video - enjoy!   <<< clicky

Here ya go:

Joe Cocker (captioned for the clear-headed)

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by DailyBuzz

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I don't think these numbers are a good measure.

Cleaning up one 3 mile island would be different from cleaning up 300 old gas stations that need the tanks removed, costs would be different, environmental impact would be different, etc.

In other words these clean up sites are not all equal, and can't be treated as if they are  fungible.

 

There is no defense. More sites should be cleaned up. The problem is dollar bills. It doesn't matter who you are, if the funds aren't there no cleaning takes place. We need to have the clean-ups funded by the polluters again.

 

I clean up one big site that costs a Billion dollars.

I clean up 20 smaller sites that cost 200 million altogether.

And you think the 20 sites cleaned up means I did a good job, adn the one site that cost 5 times that to clean up means I'm doing a shitty job?

Makes no sense.

That's not what I'm arguing. The number of sites makes no difference. If you only have $200 million to spend on clean-up, that's all you can spend, no matter whether you spend it all on one site or you spread it around to 200.

What I am saying is, there's no excuse for not cleaning up ALL of the toxic sites we have. "We need to clean up the sites" isn't a solution. Finding a way to fund the clean-up is a solution. Bush didn't pursue a solution, he used what funds he had and kicked it down the road. Let's hope Obama actively pursues a solution.

Originally posted by aeroplane22

All I'm going to say is, if you think that the only opposition to the current Health Care Reform plan are these "townyellers", and you use that for your basis of arguments, then you watch too much TV and are a stupid f***. Not calling out people in this discussion directly, just a general statement.. though there may be a few here.

You're no better than the right-wing pundits debasing an entire demographic based on the actions of a few people. The tables have turned and the left-wing media and pundits are using the same exact methods. The MSM is total BS, all they do is fan the flames for ratings or special interests, or something else, who knows.

People have legitimate concerns with this reform, and they have absolutely no voice, whatsoever. The White House is now saying that, "People who oppose or attack Health Care Reform are Un-American." Gee... that rings a memory bell doesn't it? 9/11, Iraq/Afghanistan.. hmm, sure does ring a bell.

 
As for the OP... I honestly believe it will be the other way around. The police or security will taser or assault, or heaven forbid.. fire on someone. Though I don't think it will ever come to violence to be honest, not at these town halls. Maybe for a street-protest based on broader issues.

Where do you people come up with this stuff? Oh wait, I know...the conservative sites will write:

• Pelosi says people who oppose or attack Health Care Reform are "un-American". . .or. . .Pelosi refers to opponents as "un-American". . .or. . House Speaker Nancy Pelosi attacks health care opponents as "un-American". . .or simply. . .Pelosi's "un-American" comment.

Notice where the quotation marks are located in these examples? See how it differs from what you wrote up there? Now, are you being intellectually dishonest or just gullible?

The quote (from Pelosi, not the White House, btw) is:

• "Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American".    Link: blogs.usatoday.com
  

Here's how you can tell the difference between the manufactured opposition and the legitimate opposition.

• The manufactured opposition will attempt to break down communication. They will shout over, or interrupt, anyone else who's trying to speak. They don't expect a response. In fact, their goal is to ensure that a response isn't allowed. This is, undoubtedly, and wholey, un-American.
  
• The legitimate oposition will will ask a question, or make a statement, fully expecting a response. Although the conversation may be heated, and neither side willing to compromise, both views are expressed. This is quintessentially American.

The ironic part is, these representative continue to stand up there, fielding questions and statements from people who seemingly have a seething hatred of their policies, the whole time representing the beauty of our democratic system. Let me ask you a question; in your opinion, would refusing to take questions from anyone opposing health care reform be un-American?

Originally posted by Vemoi

As Mark Levin said...if, God forbid, anything bad happens at one of these townhalls, the blame falls fully on the president for fanning the flames.  (paraphrasing)

Name one president in your lifetime that has tried to purposly inflame people like this irresponsible president has.

Examples?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I don't think these numbers are a good measure.

Cleaning up one 3 mile island would be different from cleaning up 300 old gas stations that need the tanks removed, costs would be different, environmental impact would be different, etc.

In other words these clean up sites are not all equal, and can't be treated as if they are  fungible.

There is no defense. More sites should be cleaned up. The problem is dollar bills. It doesn't matter who you are, if the funds aren't there no cleaning takes place. We need to have the clean-ups funded by the polluters again.

I actually think it'll start getting better, not worse. As more of the misinformation is disproven, and people start to accept what is ACTUALLY being proposed, tensions (over this issue) will simmer down.

I think most of it is general political outrage, not just health care reform outrage. Conservatives are pissed that Obama won. Well, actually, conservatives are pissed about a lot of things, justifiably. Maybe they celebrated the historic nature of the election, enjoyed the "kum ba yah" atmosphere we had for a few weeks, but now they are back to partisan bickering and intellectual forfeiture to Fox News. Several of their representatives have been in, let's say, less than flattering situations. So, when conservatives say things like "the America that I love" or "my America", they aren't just talking about liberal policies, a Hispanic Justice, or an African-American president. They are also talking about their good, christian-conservative, representatives being cloaked in scandalous activities. Let's not forget that they also have gracious few representatives to be proud of. Democrats had the "do-nothing" congress, now republicans have the "willing to say anything, no matter how batshit crazy" congress.

The economy is showing signs of recovery. We still have an auto manufacturer and several financial institutions under direct government oversight. All the "socialist" attacks will subside after we get them back on their own. Okay, let's be honest, only SOME of the "socialist" attacks will subside. The socialist angle seems to play well to the cukoo right, so a certain element of it will persist (just like the birthers). Give it a little time, most people will settle back into a self-absorbed state of mass consumption.

We nearly had a total economic collapse. That requires a period of hyper-tension, I believe. Kinda like when you have a car crash; when the dust settles your primary concern is safety. Then, later on, you can look back and go "JESUS! THAT WAS A CLOSE ONE!", and mourn the loss of your automobile. I think that's what's happening right now. We are starting to see the light through the trees and beginning to question how we got so deep in the woods. People want to know how America, "the America that we love" - "our America", could ever be so fragile. It's Obama's responsibility to answer those questions. These are answers that many, particularly conservatives, don't want to hear. If they resist the answers, you can bet they will resist the solutions.