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All Posts by Neherun

All Posts by Neherun

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251 posts found

As the title states, todays immediate-rewards society has shifted MMO trends to allow players to complete all of the games content without an effort. No longer you are required to socialize to gain friends, guild or clan mates, or even rivals.


This, among other things has shifted the typical MMO player into not thinking through possibilities, and shift the blame on previously obvious solutions to faults at game design (it can never be an user error). This new school way of thinking is damaging MMOs and dumping them down.


Prime examples:

"Ganking of lower levels is griefing" - So a player of enemy faction slays his enemy. On paper this doesn't sound bad at all, its in the games design. Enemy is enemy, and should be put down. However for a solo player, who happens to be the low level, and the victim in this assault, it creates negative thoughts around the game. Back in the good old days, when people got flayed by a higher level, they simply called out help to deal with the enemy. Nowadays though, they state that such behavior is "Not ok" or that it is "Griefing of players" when the solution is absolutely simple: If you cannot handle something solo, you call out for help to deal with the problem.


"All content should be accessible to all of the players" - A statement that sounds good on paper. Why shouldn't all players have access to all of the games content, especially if they are paying a subscription to the game. The reason is quite simple,. actually. The moment you open up the content to everyone, you automatically dumb down the games difficulty so less than average skill player can complete it. This dumps down not only the games difficulty, but the mechanics and strategies required to complete the game. Good example of such behavior is Diablo 3. While its only an RPG, the Inferno difficulty was drastically dumped down in the later "Inferno nerf" patch so everyone could complete the said content, this was based on player statements that it was simply too difficult. Yet during the time the nerf came, every class had completed the Inferno difficulty, some with better gear than others. Surely it was extremely difficult for some, but wasn't the original idea of Inferno that you are faced with a grim reaper punching you in the face, not you punching the grim reaper into the face repeatedly? Remember those lovely, difficult raids that weren't necessarily gear dependent, but man did they require cordination to complete? Well, with todays trend those things are history.


Group finder tools - Sure, this answers directly to the demand for immediate satisfaction consumers, but what it truly does is annihilating the last remaining socializing of solo players in MMO. These days people select the content, and press "Search". They join a group, at maximum state a greeting, go the select content and if something goes wrong, they just bail the ship and look for a group that can complete the select content faster. Whats more rewarding, wiping multiple times in a dungeon and finally completing it with a group, or pressing "search" enough times to get a group that gets the job done fast, when both take actually equal amount of time to complete? This also applies to PvP content. I still recall the good old days when someone just yelled in the streets that he is forming a raid to enemy territory, and requesting people to join him. Today, you press H/J/K whatever the PvP finder button is, and press "search" so you will be immediately taken into PvP action with no socializing required.


Effort-based progression - Read: Time-based progression. When did all of the MMOs progression shift to a simple pattern: Time spent in the game = progression. This is the real killer, and is tied directly to contents avaibility. Why do people seem to think its a good solution that your character gains power, regardless of players individual skills as a player if the player plays enough? What's the point in that exactly. The best PvP gear can be attained by afking your way in the PvP content, the best gear from PvE comes directly from resources you gain for even trying to complete the content. It's gotten to extremely ridiculous point. So many are looking for challenge, and everything is catered to the sheep flock of todays consumers I'd like to call with all names possible. 


Progression should never go backwards - This is a double-edged sword. If players can shift in their progression backwards too much, it really hurts the enjoyement of the game. But is it really the sharper edge of the two? Players not having any set backs nullifies the possibility of risk. Having no risk in MMO content means there's really nothing at stake, making the games casual strolls around the park in acid when nothing matters. Which one would you prefer: Your heart beating out of your chest when you play in adrenaline infused rage, or wiping drool from your cheek every 5 minutes when you have to slap yourself not to fall a sleep during content? Best part is, in the 90's losing all your gear wasn't actually considered that severe of a punishment for dying. Ask that from typical immediate-rewards gamer.


Fairness and balance for everyone! - Sounds like a declaration of presidental canditates speech.  Yet today this is actually a subject to moaning. MMO balance used to follow a simple statement: "If its balanced in group play, or has a relatively simple counter - no matter how powerful it is, as long as it can be countered, its in balance." Today, nope. Everything gets dumped down so brainless player can match the set up, even if he has no counter to it. It just happened in the Elder Scrolls Online with Devouring Swarm ability. Those who do not know what it is: It was ultimate ability, costly point-blank AoE that dealt damage and gave you health based on the damage dealt. The trick was to utilize this ability by wearing gear that made the ability extremely cheap; Allowing people to spam it. Now, the ability was bugged in two ways: It could be stacked, and its healing worked in a damage-shield that should have disallowed healing. Yet the counter to this ability was so simple even a trained monkey would realize it after a while: Do not stand in the AoE, especially with a group since the abilitys efficiency is obviously tied to number of players it hits. What happened? People cried the ability was OP, and instead  of fixing the bugs tied to the ability: Zenimax nerfed the whole vampire skill tree to the ground. Absolutely disgusting. What would have been the other option? Zenimax could have simply fixed the bugs and stated that the ability was easily countered by not standing in the AoE. Surely if a player could win a  1 v 10 it sounds shifty, but really, when the solution to win a fight was so simple, all you can blame are the players, not the ability.

What does this do? It kills the strategies and out-of-box thinking in MMOs. Remember when you were about to set foot in a game, and you had a whole paper sheet ready where you had theorycrafted ideas for your character, what he's going to use with what? Non-existent. That brings us to:


Lack of blueprints - I call this plague by the term. No longer are players required to do any sorts of planning, no matter the content. You just play, there's no real reason to put those brain cells to good use. And why, its catered to the immediate reward society where you shouldn't be really wasting your time planning, but only to do something. Again it lowers the value of gameplay.


TL;DR Todays MMO features that cater to make the content more easy and accessible are hurting the value of said content by lowering the standards in todays game play. And people just accept that without swallowing.








Originally posted by Solar_Prophet

Yes! It's much more fun to talk to every single NPC and branch through countless dialogue trees of meaningless small talk for five minutes only to find out they have no quests for you.

Question marks or other quest indicators are fine.

Yeah, as it isn't obvious when the last dozen NPC's you ran into were called "Citizen" and suddenly you run into "Tessa"

"- I require your assistance"


Nope, that obviously cannot be a quest giver.


And good example: Morrowind.  You just knew, you didn't have to go through all the dialogs, you just knew who gave you a quest and who didn't.


Oh do I love those poll figures. Suffice to say, has to be healthy MMO when, at least according to the poll the number of players not subscribing to the game is that high.


Originally posted by rodingo

In certain games battlegrounds have their place, such as WoW since there weren't really any world objectives to fight over even back in vanilla on the PVP severs.  The Tauren Mill Tug-O-War can only be fun for so long.  However, in a game that already has a dedicated PVP zone such as ESO then adding BGs to it would hurt the game's PVP even more by spreading the PVP'er population even thinner which will be bad for such a big zone as Cyrodil, not to mention that half of the campaigns are grossly lopsided with certain factions.  Splitting the PVP population between  RvR and BG's is what hurt WAR a lot.



Not to mention the only reason "battlegrounds" were introduced to Vanilla in the first place was due to their horrible engine not being capable of handling server-wide warfare. I can't even remember how many times entire servers crashed because of capital city raids. So its understandable they had to introduce instanced PvP, but I am fairly certain the original intention of developers was to focus on world PvP. (Hence ranked system arrived when there was absolutely no talk of battlegrounds)


Fucking zombie survival games have over 3 million player market, if not more. And you're looking for possibilites of PvE? Give me a break.- even attempting to satisfy anyone else but the survival crowd leads to the games downfall.

Also, zombies do not require AI? I want them to actually behave like "realistic" zombies, I don't want them to stand still and just calculate whether they spotted me or not. I want them to live, stumble around, stare at some broken car mirror while growling, and if player makes noise, attract to that noise and walk towards it, and heaven help you if they spot you in their peripheral vision.

Originally posted by CatAtomic99

I have to disagree. I've been instantly put off by just about every new MMORPG I've played in the last few years, with the exceptions of GW2 and SWtOR (which loses it's interest after the class story, but was strong out of the gate). I think Wildstar does a very good job of grabbing your attention early on.

ESO-- now that's a bad early impression.

I felt like uninstalling for the first hours to level 10.

Originally posted by Matt_Gee
Originally posted by Neherun
The era I have dreamed off is here, now all I need is some lighthouse to guide the way for the lost, so they'll accept freedom, risk vs. reward and consequences, so we can have real worlds of danger, where character deaths finally matter and players are no longer restricted by stupid artificial barriers.

Welcome to the New Age.

Keep dreaming. The New Age is here, but it doesn't include consequences. People won't pay for those.

2 million alpha copies of DayZ beg to differ.


Originally posted by Pemmin


yes on pvp servers



no, but the instanced small scale/40man/arena all have seperate pvp currencies and gear



I think I just vomited a little. 


So this is another themepark PvP with just instanced PvP minigames that are nothing but gear grind.


At least from beta (up to lvl 10) I can already state there's also absurd diminishing returns, and if the ranged player isn't completely stupid melee won't ever reach the ranged player


500 mil spent on advertising, getting around 5 million purchases, then milking those 5 million idiots with monthly DLC packages that cost 12 dollars each. Yeah they'll get their investments back.


People falling to stupid marketing schemes. If a 10 player game is MMO these days, then majority of games are MMOs. 

This is almost as stupid as the "MOBA" term. Multiplayer Online Battle Arena works to games like Bloodline Champions, but to AoS games that terms doesn't apply, yet since masses began using it, now AoS = MOBA. 

Sheep, I say


Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by ghorgos
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Someone told posts behind that Age of Wushu (a ow pvp mmo) has 15 million players. If it's true, so is a example of a loud big success of a ow pvp mmo. Why is this ignored in the discussion? Add to this the Lineage and EvE examples.


I think ArcheAge will help settle this question. If AA becomes a succesfull and profitable mmo, so the statemente that a ow ffa pvp mmo cant be suscefull will be proven wrong and instead is its execution and the overall mmo quality itself  the responsible by their success or failure.

In case of Age of Wushu i wonder how many of those 15M are actualy active western players.

Irrelevant if is western players or not.


In addition your statement about AA is flawed. This game offers too much other desired mechanics(sailing, crafting, housing, farming, trading) that will attract players not interested in the ffa pvp. A pure pvp-game won't attract as many players.

The mmo has  ffa ow pvp, so it should fail if the statemente "a mmo with ffa ow pvp will not be sucessfull" be correct.

Your observation supports the idea that games like Darkfall and MO aren't successful because they lack sandbox features and overall quality, not because their pvp ruleset.


At least Darkfall & Mortal Online have few things in common:

1. They promised way too much and failed to deliver

2. The combat system of both was quite.... Flawed

3. There was no interesting activities to do besides PvP (Mortal Online had interesting crafting though)

4. Both games had insane amounts of grind, forcing players to macro the skill lines up

5. Neither had any marketing besides the inhumane hypetrains


There's only one correct answer to this: Shadowbane.


Originally posted by Gdemami


Originally posted by Neherun
I call Wildstar & The Elder Scrolls Online. "The Two Towers." These are the last themepark giants from the west, then we won't be seeing a themepark game in a while. Themeparks have come to the end of their cycle, we all know that. The industry titan is still in decline and losing customers faster than before. Even AAA titles such as World of Darkness get cancelled right off the bat, sales of MMO with TES IP doesn't sell well (I'd assume if it did sell well they'd boast it all over the place, yet I haven't seen such boasting) and now we're just waiting for the second tower, Wildstar, to fall. 


MMORPGs are now gearing more and more towards sandboxes. Even the trailbrazer IP of themeparks, EQ has gone "sandbox" if the devil's advocate is to be believed. The era I have dreamed off is here, now all I need is some personal jesus to guide the way for the lost, so they'll accept freedom, risk vs. reward and consequences, so we can have real worlds of danger, where character deaths finally matter and players are no longer restricted by stupid artificial barriers.


Welcome to the New Age.



You realize WoD was supposed to be a sandbox, right..?

A game that is advertised as "You can choose to play: 1. Sandbox. 2. Themepark. 3 Social coffee house experience." Is a themepark, have you people learned nothing from developers advertising this past few decades?

It would have had as much freedom as Paul Sage's direct quote: "You can either follow the main story, or just pick a direction and explore"


Originally posted by Gdemami


Originally posted by Neherun

My question is; Where does the stereotype that every PvP'er is a "griefer" or "ganker" come from?

I guess it is the same place where stereotype that PVPers want challenge come from. :-P


PVPers only want one thing - to kill other players and iff the game mechanics allow it, they will be killing random targets on sight - weak or strong. No more, no less.

It isn't more complicated than that.

Tell that to "Anti-PKs", you know, those holy players who only hunt down "reds" i.e. criminals in MMORPGs? Not every player kills on sight, that's why we have terms for PvPers, all the way from random PKs to anti-pks. 

Originally posted by Ridelynn

I don't play PvP often. I am the guy everyone else ganks repeatedly, and my K/D ratio is something like 2:45.

I always thought it was funny that nearly without exception, when hearing other people talk in a PvP game, everyone would brag about having a K/D ratio greater than 1:1.

A lot of PvP'ers live at Lake Woebegone, where all the kids are above average.

I think it goes back to - everyone loves being the ganker, no one likes to get ganked.

Aside from the mostly pure FPS games, which have very little in the way of advancement or "level up", you won't see much that's successful. If you can keep the playing field even, then you get skill-based competition. If you have gear/levels/advantage, then you get the few who get in early and stay and get to the top of the power ladder, and a high barrier to entry for someone coming into the game new afterwards who has to suffer through being the "gankee" for a long time.

A lot of people love to talk about how Eve lets someone with a lot of skill be successful early on... I guess that depends on what you define as success - you can run around and be a nuisance in a frigate on day one I suppose, but there's only so much skill to be had when the entire metagame is just in what mods you can slot on your frame, and that's all got to do with time and money. And no one is going to be rolling around in a capital on day one.

So yeah, I think there are a lot of Open World PvP games - PS2 comes to mind primarily. Most are map-based because gankers -- I mean "players" -- love maps they can memorize so they can find all the newbie fodder in order to plump their K/D ratio.


My question is; Where does the stereotype that every PvP'er is a "griefer" or "ganker" come from? It's completely delusional, its like assuming all asians are horrible drivers. And where does the assumption that no one likes to die comes from? Its understandable to some point, but assuming people will rip off their heads for it is ridiculous. I, and a lot of PvP enthusiasts I know all say the same thing: Their favorite moments come from the fights they were severely outnumbered. Why? Because PvPers in reality love the challenge; AI scripts cannot offer the same challenge real players do, and never will. That is the reason players want to fight players, the environment offers more difficulty, challenge and varying gameplay experiences, it has nothing to do with enjoyement of fighting non challenging encounters.



To answer this we need to look at the facts, what do the current "PvP MMORPGs" have in common?

- Low budget

- Next to no marketing

- Lack of proper advertisement campaigns

- No funds to develop a game that can compete expertise wise versus AAA developers

- No resources to bring new players to the market


And bam, there you have your reasons why PvP MMOs aren't as popular as "themeparks" are. They simply lack every single required point in the checklist to compete. It's nothing related to the features of the game alone. If Blizzard suddenly smacked in a Starcraft PvP MMO, imagine the sales figures. Would it be killed because of "Open world PvP" of course not,  naturally there would be players from current market who'd demand change or wouldn't play the game, but what's to stop new players from arriving to the market. It's about the resources. Sometimes even hype, man do I remember the hype around Darkfall, now if it only had delivered (which it clearly did not). Then we have games like DayZ, which is a complete hardcore experience, look at the figures: over 1 million copies during first 4 weeks of ALPHA pre-release. 

Now, going back in time, games like DAoC & Shadowbane had plenty of subs in their time, and for varied reasons these games fell and lost subs, yet they had good subscription figures for their time. (Remember the market was a lot smaller back in the day). And a lot of players from all "PvP" mmos of the genre are waiting for a good game, with good IP, AAA development and funds to pull it off. 


People think MMORPG market is just one market, when in reality it is its own macro environment, with a lot of different markets to satisfy. You can call these whatever you want, but I'll simplify them to: FFA Sandbox, regular sandbox, traditional themepark, new themepark, Siege MMORPGs. Now, traditional themepark market is naturally saturated, and is being dominated by one giant. EVE falls to FFA sandbox slot in its own way, yet its a space ship MMO, so its in its own way a niche. But when adding all time total figures of subscriptions, MMO market may very well consist of 20-30 million players, and the number is growing each day. Who's to say there isn't that required 5% player base in such huge macro enviroment that fall to the market slot of "PvP MMO?" 


So yes, there is a market not satisfied yet. Developer's just haven't dwelled there yet. And its not because of their "Market researching" (Every corporate guy bursted to laugh when someone stated this earlier in the thread) It's simply because no one has actually thought of a new concept for that yet. Remember canned red & white wines were something nobody thought of prior to few years back, and now you can get them in almost every major sports event.


I call Wildstar & The Elder Scrolls Online "The Two Towers." These are the last themepark giants from the west, then we won't be seeing a themepark game in a while. Themeparks have come to the end of their cycle, we all know that. The industry titan is still in decline and losing customers faster than before. Even AAA titles such as World of Darkness get cancelled right off the bat, sales of MMO with TES IP doesn't sell well (I'd assume if it did sell well they'd boast it all over the place, yet I haven't seen such boasting) and now we're just waiting for the second tower, Wildstar, to fall. 

MMORPGs are now gearing more and more towards sandboxes. Even the trailbrazer IP of themeparks, EQ has gone "sandbox" if the devil's advocate is to be believed. The era I have dreamed off is here, now all I need is some lighthouse to guide the way for the lost, so they'll accept freedom, risk vs. reward and consequences, so we can have real worlds of danger, where character deaths finally matter and players are no longer restricted by stupid artificial barriers.

Welcome to the New Age.

I call Wildstar & The Elder Scrolls Online. "The Two Towers." These are the last themepark giants from the west, then we won't be seeing a themepark game in a while. Themeparks have come to the end of their cycle, we all know that. The industry titan is still in decline and losing customers faster than before. Even AAA titles such as World of Darkness get cancelled right off the bat, sales of MMO with TES IP doesn't sell well (I'd assume if it did sell well they'd boast it all over the place, yet I haven't seen such boasting) and now we're just waiting for the second tower, Wildstar, to fall. 

MMORPGs are now gearing more and more towards sandboxes. Even the trailbrazer IP of themeparks, EQ has gone "sandbox" if the devil's advocate is to be believed. The era I have dreamed off is here, now all I need is some personal jesus to guide the way for the lost, so they'll accept freedom, risk vs. reward and consequences, so we can have real worlds of danger, where character deaths finally matter and players are no longer restricted by stupid artificial barriers.


Welcome to the New Age.


Originally posted by Necropsie

Actually, there is a simple answer for this: Without "carebears", "griefers" mean nothing.

Open world PvP means one thing and one thing only: Ganking new players. Nothing else. So if someone says something like "i want open world pvp", it actually means "i want to kill newbies constantly, make sure their game experience ruined, because i am a.. (insert any nasty word here)".

Now, we all know "griefer vs. griefer" games are not succesful. They will never be. No sane person will pay for a game just to be killed by (insert nasty word here).

Sorry, but a game with "griefers vs. carebears" game will never exist. Open world PvP will always get abused.

That is why we, the majority, doesn't want open world pvp games. We will never play them. If we like the idea, we will try to change them. If we manage to do that, we will get rid of (insert nasty word here). If we cannot, we will just leave. Simple as that.

This actually reminds me of the idiots swarming to Darkfalls pre-beta forums demanding the game to have optional PvP.

Don't you think your a little bit too ignorant? Your definition of open world PvP makes me weep how pathetic todays players are. They want everything now, easy progression with zero set backs. You couldn't possibly imagine how many times I've been ran down by players far above the progression than I am. Have I ever quit those games because of that? No, I haven't. I don't demand all games to be smooth sailing without any set backs, I don't need that. Even life isn't that, and if a person cannot handle getting beat in a computer game, I've got bad news for you what happens when the shit hits the fan for the first time in real life. Todays generations (Those born from '90s and up) are so annoying, demanding selfish brats I'd just feel like wiping them from the face of the earth.

I aren't marching to your themeparks to demand perma-death, I just skip the game, as it obviously isn't for me. All you want is your re-skinned themepark adventure you can repeat and notice the pattern, get bored and hop into another cartwheel. Can't you admit you're only escaping something, and not really looking for an MMO experience, but rather something drastically different? MMORPGs used to be about player interraction, freedom and consequences, you've turned them into hamster wheels you want to grind through till the said feels falls off, only to be replaced with exactly the same one.




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