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All Posts by Neherun

All Posts by Neherun

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213 posts found

I know this forum has... Well certain kind of visitors, but people, really, you won't even bother to read the title or opening post anymore with proper reading comprehension? Online, that's the keyword there.

1. Rocket League (sports) [No words to describe the awesomeness]

2. Bloodborne (RPG with online features) [Assuming it has PvP and invasions]

3. No Man's Sky (MMO) [Extremely ambitious title, hope they'll pull it off]

4. Camelot Unchained (MMORPG) [Fingers crossed for some decent PvP after 10 years of nothing]

5. Reserved for some upcoming title that actually interests me.

Does the setting truly matter when the developer's have been publishing horse shit for the past ten years?

 

You have my yes vote. Although personally to me, a dangerous world involves player killing.

 

Personally, I think anyone who immerses with the game world more than he has to can be included in role/lore- player categories.

 

Originally posted by angerbeaver
They are making money with Archeage, why would they want him to step down? Reputation doesn't hurt that badly nowadays it seems so even if Archeage crashes and burns it won't matter as long as Trions bank account grows.

Right, when we live in the age where a major dealer in company's stock is  brand value and recognition, bad reputation or PR is completely irrelevant.

 

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Skills or talent based customization is far better than just stat disbursement. Stat based customization just leads to one optimal build for every class. A far better way is to make people have to commit to different skills rather than different stats, make the players have tough decisions to give their class specific weaknesses and strengths.

 

Also, intelligence has nothing to do with it anymore, like others have already pointed out build guides are just a google away for everyone. Its more of a question of commitment rather than IQ.

 

Edit: PVP and PVE balancing also get in the way of wildly customizable characters. IMO most gamers would rather have balance than end up being forced to play a certain class that some genius determined was the best for whatever a group is doing. Lack of customization allows for balance which leads to players having more freedom to play whatever class they want.

Except that shallow character customization has lead to more balance problems than deep character customization if the deep character customization is done correctly. As somebody mentioned above: Stat distributing does not work if your class can only benefit from 1-2 stats (Ex. warrior relying purely on strength and vitality). But what if the stat distribution was the following:

STR: Increases minimum weapon damage dealt,  increases weapon damage, attack rating and skills on strength based weapons

Dex: increases defense, increases global attack rating, increases skill and damage on dexterity based weapons

Con: Increases health and stamina, increases health and stamina regen

Int: Improves all class skills, increases effects of weapon procs, improves most casted skills maximum damage/healing

Wis: Increases mana, increases mana regen, improves most casted skills minimum damage/healing

Now, how many routes do you see, right from the start? That's correct, you can pair 2, or 3 of these. Then comes the additional choices that for example strength based weapon damage is a lot higher than that of dex based yet dex based weapons have better attack rating, skills are improved through intelligence, wisdom is the primary stat for gaining any mana to cast those skills. See where this is going? Sure, somebody will calculate that x combination of stats will deal the highest damage with best survivability, but is that the optimal build? Nope. There are too many variables the build might be missing.

Let's take a tank build, its easy to assume that the most important stats there are Dex and Con, but dex weapons do not possess a taunt skill, what do you do? Get Str based weapon? Then you need str, how much do you sacrifice from dex and con. Now we've completely forgotten that class skills rely on int, how much room for that? Should I use a weapon that has a chance of proc, and forsake str completely and rely on procs? Does that give me enough aggro, or is a proc too risky for maintaining aggro? Are you starting to see where this is going?

Shallow customization (ex. talent trees) have the problem that it is way too easy to determine the build. Half of the nodes typically are next to useless or weak in comparison to the one right next to them. The worst part is that in talent builds, there are no drawbacks. There are typically no talents that are: "Increases weapon damage by 20%, lowers attack speed by 20%". They are all straight forward bonuses, and its easy to calculate which are the most effective bonuses, and there you have your FOTM build. Take the deep customization from above and people are still arguing over which tank build is most effective after 12 years. Shadowbane has proven that, and the system I just made up above is extremely similiar to shadowbanes system.

 

 

Originally posted by MMOExposed
any review of this game?

It used to be quite fun, in fact, lots of fun back in the days (gheez I cannot even remember the year, but it was loong as time ago, 8-10 years maybe?) The game was about two factions that fought each other periodically in form of a racial war. Aside from that people did what they wanted to, some parts of the game were open PvP, some were not. But the game had a lot of interesting elements (correct me people if I remember these wrong but:) You could elect your "race leader",  from level 1 onwards monsters could drop items that were extremely valuable, the crafting system was extremely interesting and frustrating at the times. But for example of an idea I haven't ran into a game that's tied to the economy: The game had this "Tower model" which was a dungeon (catacomb really) that had levels, and each level possessed harder mobs and increased loot. The twist was that this was open to both factions and the area was open PvP, but people wanted to of course co-operate (you couldn't solo it) to get further down the dungeon, but naturally tensions got high and there was some fun PvP at the times. Naturally, the dungeon required a key (which of course costs money) and the fact that once you die, you're back to square 1.

 

But the economy is the real gem here. The game had money sinks here and there that kept the economy stable. Items had tiers, and for each tier you wanted to gain for the item you had to gamble whether it breaks or increases in tier (the crafting system) naturally this was costly, but everyone wanted those max tier weapons. Then that dungeon actually costed money to enter (in form of a expensive key). The best part? Most of these items were loot drops. Players could set up their own shops anywhere they wanted in the game. So you could see a player in wilderness selling potions. The game possessed enough money sinks so the economy was completely stable (plus item durability stuff). 

Somebody continue from here, my memory is fuzzy.

Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Necrite666
Originally posted by Wizardry if you have a decision to say go for Ice damage or Fire damage what does it matter if the enemy you fight does not have any elemental properties

This is another big problem of modern MMOs.

In the old days fire elementals for example were immune to fire or even got healed when hit by fire damage. This was common sense.

Today the only difference between elemental damage types is the attack animation.

It's just sad...

Can you point to a handful of games that demonstrate this?

Not sure about modern titles, but in DAOC you actually could put stat points into your character at creation that likely set the course for your build the entire game.  You'd think that would have to led to only one build, but every class had a couple of variants based on the impact of your chosen race.

This meant you might have a stealther focused on a strength build who was good with slashing weapons, which certain NPCS were weak to, while others were very strong against them.  Another stealther might chose a dex build, and he'd be using piercing weapons, and again, different NPC's to be strong and weak against. 

This also applied to the armor players wore, Pierce was good against chain mail, while slash worked better against leather wearers, neither did much against plate, for that you went with crush which is why stealthers were always at a disadvantage against heavy tanks.

There was so much of this in DAOC, then throw in the fact your character was stat capped, you could only boost your Dex to maximum, anything above was a waste, so it lead to an interesting (to me ) mount of spreadsheeting trying to build the perfect character from a plethora of player made and dungeon dropped gear to basically get stat capped in as many primary skills as possible. (you always had to trade off on something, not possible to do even half of them per class)

This is the sort of mechanics I don't really see anymore (perhaps for good reason, I realize this sort of detail is tedious to the average person), but I still return to the DAOC EMU's in order to go back and play this same game.

 

 

DAoC & Shadowbane were both the ones that truly shined in making a difference as a character. While my DAoC knowledge is limited for playing it merely on friends account at his place (and that he explained me the basics), I can throw the Shadowbane example:

Whilst the NPC's had little difference between what you smashed them with, players were the complete opposite. If you attempted to assault a Vampire with unholy damage, guess twice if you dealt any damage to one, but then again, torch the bastard with fire or strike it with holy damage and the thing will burn to ashes in seconds (whilst yes, most vampires did use jewelry to minimize this weaknesses, vampires generally stood no chance against ex. a Nightstalker, which is pretty much a unholy / vampire hunting class). Each race possessed resistance bonuses, some special bonuses, they had availability to starting runes (starting traits) you could choose from, certain races were immune to certain effects (Ex. Minotaurs being stun immune or that you couldn't blind a shade). Then you apply the stat routes they went to, their weapon choices (slashing/piercing/blunt, all weapon types, the classes expertise in said weapon type, some specials for class weapons), armor choices, 3x sub-classes  and suddenly you're having a hard time being on track of exactly what you were strong or weak against, or what was an even match up so neither had massive handicap.

While yes, such system is quite overwhelming at the start, once players play the game for a while they'll adapt to it, and further they go the better it comes to their realization, games without deep character customization are extremely shallow on the RPG part.

 

Originally posted by sunandshadow
It makes me sad to see "character customization" assumed to mean spending stat points. T_T  That's one of the smaller aspects of the large field of character customization, and one of the least imaginative designs for how to implement it.

But thats the basis of it. Then comes possible skill points, gear choices (assuming the game has gear choices, not only straight forward gear upgrades), sub-class choices, expertise choices, discipline choices, it goes further and further. But basic stats is a major deal, how can I create a battle-mage if I am not capable of wearing heavy armor, investing points into melee strength based damage and have enough health?

 

Originally posted by rounner

Games try to give variety with builds but then you have problems with pvp balance for example. Min maxing guides inevitably mean that many options boil down to a few, or to quote poetry as you seem to hold it in high esteem:  

An apprentice sees many possibilities, the master sees just one

 

While that may be the case in simple formulas, it's been almost 12 years of Shadowbane and people are still arguing over build efficiencies and effectiveness of x builds. That's because the games character format allows such deep customization at the cost of something, and there is no such thing as optimal balance. The PvP is completely in balance and its the player skill that matters, and when it comes to rock,paper,scissors game, its more in lines of Sheldon Cooper's " Scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, rock crushes lizard, lizard poisons Spock, Spock smashes scissors, scissors decapitates lizard, lizard eats paper, paper disproves Spock, Spock vaporizes rock, and as it always has, rock crushes scissors." Why? The character customization allows next to infinite amount of options to go forwards. 

Just used that as an example. Character customization, when done correctly includes so many variables for a character that with sacrificing something they gain something. When character customization is completely about adding to the power, its easy to find the solution which "points" in the customization allow most character growth in terms of power, hence we end up with these optimized "FOTM" builds. But if by adding x you lose y, then there's next to impossible to find the optimal build. You'll have the average "This cannot go wrong" build. but that one is far from the strongest build. In fact, that's what in SB people called "average."

 

Originally posted by syntax42
I miss games like DAOC and SWG.  Planning my character build improved the attachment I had to those characters.  When World of Warcraft released, I thought the talent system was going to be great for character customization but it really took away the feeling of having a somewhat unique build.  Most MMOs today fail to create a deep character customization system, instead opting for simple abilities which are the same for everyone of that class.  It is quite a shame.

I too found WoW's talent system intriguing, while the customization wasn't so visible you had tiny bit of saying how to make your character. But I do remember my first level achieved in beta and staring at the screen where it read what stats I had gained. I immediately scratched my head thinking why wasn't I able to choose which stats I want, why on earth I couldn't place them myself.

 

Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by Neherun

How exactly is the original post a troll? I provided my viewpoint and arguments behind it on the matter of character customization. If you do not agree with me, that's fine. But instead of using an attempt of bashful clever wording, provide an actual counter-argument.

 

 

From your original post...

"I understand someone's argument behind it when they state " I want to be sure not to ruin my character by placing my stats wrong", but on the other hand I do not. Anyone with average intelligence can theorycraft a viable character knowing what the basic attributes do and what skills do."

 

You can't say, "I like character customizations" without drawing in to question the oppositions intelligence? You can't fathom a reason for simplified character creation that does not involve lack of comprehension of said system?

 

Apparently the first sentence explaining that you understand why someone wouldn't want to spend hours researching the system and then twiddling bits to make their character before they can even play the game was a lie. You don't understand since the first reason you turn to is a lack of comprehension rather than such a low level of interest as to present a block to potential customers... the only people developers actually listen to (as opposed to armchair pundit game designers)

 

Instead how about doing something productive and suggesting a simplified entry into the game that can be unfolded at break points along the characters career that provide the same amount of customization depth without the level of opacity that requiring it all up front has already illustrated in many games to date?

 

 

 

 

 

As I mentioned in the edited post: It's not a question of intelligence. That's exactly the point that it does not decrease the desire of entering the game since nobody will feel secluded. But to the argument of spending hours planning prior to actually hopping into the game is exactly the reason I mentioned respeccing. The whole point of the process is that you possibly cannot know what's to come. Sure, you can plan ahead pre-release of a game and have a character template ready to test whether it actually works, but that doesn't block a potential customer from hopping into the game, enjoying it, placing stats here and there and as he reaches max level to realize that his character is somewhat weak in comparison. All he has to do is re-spec his character, how he goes about from there on is well, his choice. But if the person who respecs his character does not bother to stop for a second to think how he is about to do it and makes yet another weak build, is that actually a flaw in the game's system, or is it out of pure laziness of the said player?

You simply cannot have the customization depth without deep mechanics tied to characters attributes and skill(s) (levels). Personally I think the old model had exactly the one flaw; You had to plan it all ahead. But that was simply because once the choices had been made, there was no turning back. It was either a reroll or you stick with the character. Nowadays complete unoptional rerolls are out of the question, I agree with that. But the respec system fixes this completely, if its affordable or cheap.

As you said, it has been illustrated in many games up to date. People did not feel overwhelmed when they hopped into the games that had deep character customizations back then. They were more in lines of intrigue, wondering what does everything do and testing out next to everything. I remember playing myself and reading twice what does strength stat exactly mean to my character, and then the thought occured that if I have 5 attribute points per level, and the max level is 100, how much STR stat do I actually need? And I wasn't the only one, that's for certain. I didn't have a thought of min-maxing back in those days, I did not look for best-in-slot gear priorhand from a website or have an excel sheet ready. I just played the game, making choices here and there. That's most likely the entry level scenario for everyone, especially now that many entry-level players to MMORPGs have yet played such a game.

 

Edit: Apparently you edited the post. And how exactly is that an insult? Anyone that is not hindered on their level of intelligence for a reason or another is capable of customizing a character IF they actually put any effort into it. This does not mean that if somebody does not like a customization system they are somewhat less capable, the point was that people who argue that deep character customization kills their character are lazy. The point of the argument is that today's instant gratification market follows the trend where people do not have to put any effort in creating their characters, and personally I hate the system. If some people like it, fine, but I'd like to hear an actual argument for such a system.

 

Edited to get the actual proper wording through for reading comprehension.

 

Edit #2:

"I understand someone's argument behind it when they state " I want to be sure not to ruin my character by placing my stats wrong", but on the other hand I do not. Anyone with average intelligence can theorycraft a viable character knowing what the basic attributes do and what skills do. The real issue behind the problem is: "Do I actually bother to spend any time learning the mechanics of this RPG?" The act of gimping your character is barely an issue now that the "re-spec" feature has been implemented into every single MMORPG out there. Was that truly a bad thing? Rest in peace all my beloved one hundred experiemental characters that turned out to be a gimp in Shadowbane."

 

Just for clarification, this is not an insult or a troll. It's an argument against lack of character customization constructed of a simple formula. 

1st part: What's the original argument and it's state of agreability

2nd part: Disagreement with the original argument 

3rd part: Tackling the core of the flaw in the original argument (States that next to anyone can theorycraft a viable character with effort) using a passive-aggressive stance to promote the arguments statement

4th part: Explaining the reason for your argument (In this case referring to the issue that people just do not bother these days) 

5th part: Placing additional viewpoints behind your argument in order to increase its creditability and closing words.

 

 

Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by Neherun

Anyone with average intelligence can theorycraft a viable character knowing what the basic attributes do and what skills do.

 

"A man comes on the MMO telling me how great my game could be...

but he can't be smart cause he doesn't like the same game as me."

 

...Can't get no... satisfaction... Can't get no... MMO action!

"A man with no real say often finds wisdom in poetry, for he has no point."

Do you remember those post second millennium MMORPG titles that offered a deep character customization? I can, barely. Since 2005 all MMORPG titles have taken the approach of casualizing the character progression to the state where players don't really have to put a second thought on how to level their character. Leveling up used to mean you had a decision ahead of you, where do I put my stat points, shall I increase my strength or wisdom? What about my skill points, should I level up this spell or increase my proficiency with swords? Where has that gone? 

I understand someone's argument behind it when they state " I want to be sure not to ruin my character by placing my stats wrong", but on the other hand I do not. Anyone with average intelligence can theorycraft a viable character knowing what the basic attributes do and what skills do. The real issue behind the problem is: "Do I actually bother to spend any time learning the mechanics of this RPG?" The act of gimping your character is barely an issue now that the "re-spec" feature has been implemented into every single MMORPG out there. Was that truly a bad thing? Rest in peace all my beloved one hundred experiemental characters that turned out to be a gimp in Shadowbane.

It's simple, today's MMORPG crowd has gotten to the sloth state. Everything should come to them with no effort, as long as they put time into it. Their character has to grow substantially more powerful every now and then, or they won't see any progression behind their character. Which leads how the industry handles character customization these days: Catering to the instant gratification crowd.

Nowadays when people attach RPG to MMO it doesn't even include the sentence "customizing your character". To most people it used to be the most interesting aspect of RPGs, and one of the most fun parts. It's actually amusing how much Diablo 3 was bashed for following the trend of having simplified character customization. And how it wasn't truly a sequel to Diablo 2, which had a proper character customization. But when it comes to MMORPGs, you can do exactly that, simplified character customization and nobody bats an eye. 

Give me back my character customization. Give me skills to choose from, attributes to place stats into, and let me make my own decisions. Let me try to build a truly unique character that is powerful or up-to-par with the games meta and allow me to compete with MY character, not your template. I don't feel proud of my MMO characters anymore, just because they are not mine, and that's what bores me even in FFA PvP games. I could play a themepark if I could have a deep character customization, eventhough I am avid sandbox FFA PvP fan.

"This is my character, there are many like it, but this one is mine."

Originally posted by DMKano
Would be fun for maybe a few hours, but I see no longtrem or repeat play at all in your concept. No progression is a deal killer for me - I voted no

That's where I'd be completely open to ideas. As I personally would like to see some progression, but on a level that it doesn't completely kill your entertaiment value if you perish. That's why the floor system would be initially in place, so players could feel some sort of progression. But for the concept, giving players levels / etc would annihilate the original idea of the game.

I ran into an amusing small game people were playing on a DayZ shard. People turned their game into complete grayscale with pitchblack night and hunted each other with axes, sneaking about, this gave me an idea:

The concept:

While technically not an RPG, the game would be MMO focused on surviving as long as you can, there would be no NPCs, no levels, no "gear" aside from traps, parts of traps and primitive weapons. The twist is, everyone is competing about surviving as long as you can and besides surviving, the only thing in the world to do is murdering players. Classification? Survival psychological thriller stealth-action MMO.

To start in-depth explanation, first I need to go through the world and graphics style:

The game would feature randomly generated worlds that are large in scale, each time you log in you hop into a different "shard" that features the randomly generated world. However, you are always assigned in a game with bunch of players around you to make sure you run into players (plus your friends list is prioritized). Running to the edge of the map would transfer you to the otherside (ex from west to east) of the map. The artstyle of the game would be grayscale, with a lot of shadows to hide in, players themselves would be almost as dark, so you couldn't visibly spot them from shadows unless they move. (For easing the imagination of graphics, imagine a 3d world that looks similiar to this, not exactly but you should get the idea: http://www.desktopaper.com/wp-content/uploads/fantastic-limbo-in-real-life-by-midwinters-twilight-dzwv.jpg ). 

Gameplay:

The game is played on third person with a crosshair, however you will not see players behind your character (so you can actually be sneaked up upon, and the area behind you which you cannot see can be checked with an key you hold down). You can turn your head around to look around. The core concept of simple: Whilst you can block enemy attacks, its one hit and you're down.

This leads to the core concept: You are supposed to sneak upon unwary players and strike them down, but since the game features so many hiding locations you'll never know if you two are indeed alone. Whilst you're sneaking up to someone, can you be sure you were the only one watching? This promotes camping, which is countered by the moonlight feature where randomly a moon will shine upon the world, revealing all the shadows for a short period of time. Now since if you're camping and you are revealed, you cannot be sure if somebody saw you or not. Movements faster than sneaking or walking generate loud footstep noises. So running is an option, but will reveal you to everyone. The plot twist is: You can only attack once every ten seconds, and once you do, you cannot block and your movement is decreased by 20%. This is to prevent people mindlessly running about and swinging at every dark corner in the map, but its also to promote the purpose of sneaking up on people and to generate more tension. You just saw a player, you saw him moving to that shadow of a rock with his back faced towards you, and you know he did not turn around because it would have generated movement in shadows. Now, do you approach and kill this person, knowing that you're the one who is forced to stay in that rocks shadow for the ten second period, being completely vulnerable if a third party shows up? The weapons in the game are limited to melee weapons, such as axes, spears, daggers. Each have different range, but there are drawbacks. That spear of yours isn't going to exactly promote hiding behind a tree too well, is it?

Spicing things up, there's the trap generation system. You can build traps of your own consisting of somesort of sandbox system that allows you to attach a boulder to a rope, and when somebody walks into the rope the boulder will swing towards them, or you can just find a bear trap and place it somewhere, waiting for some poor man to walk into it. The thing is, whilst laying traps (that take a brief amount of time to place) you'll naturally be vulnerable (and most likely visible) to other players, so the person laying the trap has to make sure he's alone for his own safety. [Possibly the traps would generate a slight sound when placed]. Note: traps disappear 5 minutes after the player goes offline.

Simply stated: The whole point of the game is to get your adrenaline flowing, and keep it flowing through increasing tension for every action you make.

The sounds play important role in the game, the ambient sounds are purposefully kept creepy, there might be small static noise in the background every once in a while, then if you were in a forest, for example you could hear nightlife (which isn't in the game though). Or if you were in a town you could hear wind striking the windows / doors shut (there would be minor weather system for ex. rain and wind to even lessen your vision). 

Communications though? Non-existent. This is to prevent friends ganging up, since all characters look 100% the same and the game would not feature voice communications or chat, people would have hard time finding their friends (especially when the art style doesn't exactly give out landmarks). However, playing with friends would be sort of automated, since when joining a game it first checks whether you have friends online and pairs you into the same world. 

The game would be bland without risk vs. reward scenario though, but not having levels all you can lose is the current gear you're carrying. I did not find this an incentive enough, so here's the last part: The floor system. Every player once they log in with a fresh character starts from floor 1. There are 150 floors and in order to climb up in the floor system, each floor requires x in-game time and x kills. Players then are always paired up with players from said floors, with some variance (ex floor 1 includes players from floor 1-9, floor 10-20 and so forth.) This is designed as something for players to reach, but it also increases the difficulty, as naturally the best stalkers will later on be paired with just one another. There would be a wall for everyone reaching the 150 floor, and a small scoreboard to showcase the top players with their survival time and kills. Naturally once you die everything is reset. I previously mentioned friends pairing up with one another, but they will be unable to join the same game if they are 15 floors apart (this isn't exactly a game you play with friends anyways, since they'll most likely murder you the second they have a chance. Sure, risk it yourselves if you wish)

And that concludes the basics of the "Purgatory project". If you actually read the whole thing, thank you for your time. Please provide feedback and cast your vote whether you'd have any initial interest in such concept, or would flat out never touch anything close to this.

 

Unfortunately too often people (devs) mistake "Hardcore PvE" as insane timesinks. Couldn't we have insanely difficult PvE end-game, which would be on the difficulty level of frustration? Sure, the first few bosses would be something slightly above average players could handle, but later on the difficulty keeps increasing that in order to beat those bossess you truly have to be "elite" in terms of players. Give me a PvE content like this and I don't mind not having FFA PvP, I could do it in designated areas, but either you give me hardcore PvP or hardcore PvE in a game, I won't touch it otherwise. I used to play MMORPGs for the challenge, not for the timesink they required.

 

Originally posted by Dreamo84
I never quite got how people call World of Tanks an MMO at all. Wouldn't that mean Battlefield 4 is an MMO?

MMORPG.com started branding F2P titles such as WoT & LoL MMO's so they can sell their advertisement & marketing space to those developers.

 

Originally posted by Forgrimm
My personal opinion is this: if you want good and balanced pvp, play a FPS or a MOBA. It seems that pvp in most MMORPG's usually turns out to be an unbalanced, gear/level dependent mess.

 

That's only because todays MMORPG's don't have proper character building. The classes are set on certain skill patterns and some games have "talent trees" in which you can specialize, but all the characters on x class are more or less homogeneous, which means that when they attempt to balance the classes, they end up giving someone the edge. In older games when there was much more freedom in character building and gear wasn't simple upgrades but choices, the MMO was much more balanced because you had multiple character variations and gear alone didn't count as simple upgrades (instead you had to choose between 15% movement speed + 6 VIT or 6 VIT & 6 STR, there was no gear that gave 6 VIT & STR + the MS buff), so the characters were heterogeneous instead.

 

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