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All Posts by Neherun

All Posts by Neherun

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A territory control, PvP & economy based game without PvP?

 

Now, should I break it for him or will someone else will?

Because the themepark models people have grown to love have nothing else to offer.

 

/Thread.

 

Originally posted by newtextdocument
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Deleted User
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by unclemo
Originally posted by Pepeq
If you can turn PVP off and on, you have no real PVP.  Any game that does this, is not a PVP game.

 

Yup. Another carebear PvEfest MMO. Just what we need. I'll pass.

 

Excellent. 

The market needs a solid robust PvE focused game, and the less PvP obsessed complainers along the way demanding this or that the better.

 

The less white noise that gets in the way of what the true market wants, the more likely SOE will get out of the echo chamber of bad received wisdom that kills one game after another.

I fully agree. Look at all the FFA pvp MMO's out there, then look at the community they have. The community usually eats itself alive. Show me ONE FFA Pvp game that has lasted as long as EQ or Wow and been as popular? The correct answer would be zero.

EVE Online

And can we stop comparing everything to WoW's once in a million years when all the stars align success?

EVE Online is a very successful game that keeps growing with a very healthy stable player base and they keep adding onto EVE's features.

While FFA PvP MMOs night not be the highest popularity, but it does have a market presence.  Now EQN will be PvE centric so all pvp will be consentual I would imagine, maybe certain servers or worlds might have more PvP centric rulesets but nothing forced if one so chooses not to participate in.

Gotta agree with furbans here.

 

He seems to be saying that there is a mass market for pvp mmos and he is right there is.

 

On the other hand, the person who he replied to seems to be implying that all games should be PvE because he thinks no PvP mmos have ever been successful.

 

That guy is wrong, perhaps the PvE market is bigger than the PvP market but they are both mass markets and neither are niche markets, there is space for games for both.

 

If for some reason, all companies were making PvE only games, another would recognise the massive gap in the market and make PvP mmos, in fact this is already happening.

 

its also happening in other areas such as the mass market for adult gamers which has suffered over the past 5 years as the move to online gaming has started witht he initial focus being on getting as many gamers from all groups as possible rather than making a game for any one group with companies like prepare to die growing the way Blizzard and Bioware did when they 1st were making adult pc games in their infancy.

 

They left a gap in the market and its being filled. that's how it works.

 

its stupid to say there is a market for PvE so none can exist for PvP or even to suggest PvP is a niche market. A niche market is hardcore mode in diablo 3 with perma death, PvP is a mass market.

I am in complete agreement when it comes to market for PvP MMO's. The market is absolutely huge, however no proper titles for said market (Triple A games or close  to that) have been released since EVE (which isn't directly a PvP MMO either). Shadowbane & Dark Age of Camelot were widely successful back in their days when compared to the size of total MMO market when they came out. 

Best part is, imagine if World of Warcraft had followed the pre-alpha plan (path of conquest and siege based PvP and adventures) prior to the EQ people taking it over [That at least the product was according to rumors and of the pirated version I played]; it would have turned into a vastly different game (much closer to Shadowbane than the EQ model as an example) with the marketing behind it, people would have flocked to such MMO. We wouldn't be seeing themeparks, we'd see copies of PvP MMOs following the success of the giant.

 

Aaaand how is this game an MMO?

 

Originally posted by Bladestrom
Pernadeath doesn't work in a mmorpg setting as mmorpg is all about accumulating experience and value through progression. There comes a point where permadesthvwould be absolutely unacceptable. Games that have permadeath work because the players can manage the risk/reward do they are in control enough that they can risk and enjoy the adrnalin rush in situations wher death is a (managed risk). In a mmorpg you can't manage this risk effectively so it does not work.

 

To some of you, maybe. Then there's a bunch of people who consider MMORPG's a chance for player interaction in RPG setting, it doesn't necessarily even possess typical RPG elements, but has the required features for a "role-playing experience" that immerses your character in the world. And saying people cannot manage the risk, this again is a personal type of thing, to me I'd play nothing more than a perma-death sandbox game. I'd love and caress the life out of that game. 

The thing is people are used to the fact that MMORPGs are all about grinding experience and gear, gaining levels and new abilities (in addition to more power) on the basis of time spent playing the said game. Which I find absolutely disgusting, in my mind a player should be the one in control of his characters power, and its up to the players to possess enough skill to call themselves powerful. Then again, this would be the basis for a functioning perma-death game. Even though I advocate perma-death, I couldn't play it in a linear progression game. Sure, I wouldn't mind doing some leveling up, but that shouldn't completely be the basis of my characters power. 

Some of you never touch perma-death games, then some of us never touch MMORPG's that do not possess proper risk vs. reward factors, as to us linear character progression with no risk or freedom of action involved are boring. (And yup, to me that involves FFA PvP, because how can I immerse myself in the world if I don't even have the option to do what I wish to do? Personally I am no random PK, but to me I don't feel immersed unless I have the option to do what the hell I want. It's like Morrowind vs. Skyrim, if you could pick the core mechanics of game freedom wise, I'd pick Morrowind any day)

 

Originally posted by Abaxial
I'm really not too interested in PvP, and when it becomes non-consensual it just attracts sociopaths. But I agree that Tarren Mill was the best, just because of the naturalness of it. You could avoid it or join in as you chose. Battlegrounds, with defined start times and end times, are like a game within a game, and rather artifical. Tarren Mill had all the untidiness of real war.

 

Wouldn't the "untidiness of a real war" include civilian casualties and non-consensual fights? 

 

Before I even start my post I'll admit to the fact on being a bitter old school MMORPGer from the days where idea of Trammel was considered an abomination. As one of the few of this dying breed I just have to state that PvP without risk vs. reward will turn into a boring tread-mill of ideas that just do not satisfy today's market (as the market craves for constant, ever-developing character growth). As people in this thread agree PvP has to possess some form of meaning, but if you can gain something in PvP without having the possibility of losing something, isn't the outcome of said PvP rather meaningless? 

Then there's the issue of people's mindset: "I shouldn't have to fight unless I want to" in a multiplayer environment that can only translate into one thing; Players freedom is limited. Personally, I hate absolutely every single feature that restricts me from doing exactly what I want to do; However I am always prepared to face the consequences, but unfortunately todays MMORPGs do not offer either freedom or consequences for my actions (neither do the players, truth to be told). I remember back in the days even players gave you some thought, as you wouldn't mindlessly murder a member of a clan just for the fun of it, knowing that there would most likely be retaliation. 

Helbreath had a feature, which we could apply to modern MMOs to tackle this problem with ease. For early levels, you could join either of the factions as their "civilian", you would then be protected by that city and the opposing factions members wouldn't be able to attack you. However criminals could (but they had insane risks for being one, including being completely exiled from NPC's). But in today's market, it wouldn't be just for early levels. People who wouldn't want to fight could be civilians, they would then be excluded from the PvP feautures (and the risks and rewards it would share); but in turn, they would gain protection from non-consensual PvP. If there were to be major PvP events (ex. war) civilians could then switch to "Militia" for a brief amount of time, allowing them to participate in PvP at the risk. Or we could have that each city has a townhall where they could enlist as militia for x amount of time (or until logged out).

So we'd have:

- Actual faction member (Open to FFA PvP; all death penalties apply)

- Civilian (Protected from faction PvP; Criminals could still assault you but you wouldn't suffer any death penalties)

- militia (temporary PvP enabled; all death penalties apply)

 

Can you stop abusing the term MMO just for the sake of creating new articles, please?

 

Massively Multiplayer Online does not equal a 5 v 5 match.

 

This keeps stunning me, a decade ago deep character customization was essential part of the game, and games that lacked it were criticized for not having it (even the current MMO titan met healthy amount of discussion in this regard).

Nowadays if some studio announced deep character customization options (note: skill-wise), people would abolish this idea on basis that "I don't want to ruin my character" "What if I build my character wrong?" "What if -insert any player made error here-" or the best argument of them all: "It's impossible to balance"

Firstly, I can say it has already been successfully implemented, I call this phenomenon "Shadowbane did it". The game allowed virtually endless character build options, and cookie-cutters so to speak weren't the optimal builds, but builds that were up-to-bar to compete. Essentially, that game's cookie-cutters were merely the standard templates that any fool could play with and not be hindered down by their character build choices, but the expert builders had builds that were vastly customized away from these cookie-cutters, and those were the surprising ones. But guess what; No build was above the other builds (unless you smacked a well built character against a total gimp), there just wasn't a way to create a character that "you would have to roll to compete". Could you screw up your character? Yes, absolutely, and as annoying it was you could level new character in matter of days. If we were to translate such system to a MMO of today, obviously we could just hit the "reset" button on and "respec."

And getting your character build wrong wasn't exactly easy (assuming player had the braincells to understand that a warrior who primarily benefits from STR, DEX & CON shouldn't be rolling pure INT & SPI on his character, but I'm fairly sure someone did that and took weapons with procs in them, who knows it could have actually worked in the game, that's the amusing part).

Enough of Shadowbane though, the point merely was that today's character customizations are so shallow that I find no joy in the RPG part of MMORPGs anymore. The RPG is merely "You leveled up, gain this new ability!" and gear treadmill. I haven't felt the feeling of "This is my character, there are many others, but this one is mine" in a long time. Games announce "we have this large customization options" which actually translates to few talent trees that possess such waste of slots that essentially every build is the same, and the other customization allows you to choose the color of your fireball.

Why isn't theorycrafting part of todays MMORPGs anymore? Why did it actually disappear, and what could possibly someone name as a benefit of lack of character customization? Fairness and balance? Or just appealing to less intelligent? Cause all I can think of is latter.

 

 

During the "Land rush" 40% of ALL housing locations were reserved (But I'm fairly sure this figure is a lot higher in safe zones); Stop whining and go plant your house outside the safezone, if you dare.

The issue of landrush isn''t because of development, but player interraction.

 

Originally posted by aerelis
Nah, not that I know of. My friend plays in the clan from Korea and he's fine

Your ping to the US Trion Servers: 275 ms / 212 ms

I suppose that settles it. And apparently SD is going to have a branch on AA (EU server). It's a shame SB/DF community is split up like this, I was really looking forward to fighting you.

 

Well, best of luck with dominating the US server!

 

Has anyone tested pings from EU to US or vice versa? Apparently SD isn't touching the game, and I'm on a hunt for a proper PvP guild. Who better than old foes, huh?

 

Nehemia, Societas Daemonica

 

Out of the above mentioned, here are few you'll need private shards for (retails are dead):

- Helbreath. Seems simple, but requires throughout character planning and APM of 120 to actually compete

- Shadowbane. A game where a simple 20 level can solo 5x 40-50 levels, just because

 

For upcoming:

- Unreal Tournament X's Insta-gib (whatever the newest releases name will be). Instagib is pretty much the most underestimated form of competitive gaming, but truth to be told its the MOST balanced form of FPS gaming available. The maps are identical on both sides, one shot kills, its all about player accuracy, movement and strategy. Not to mention at least in Unreal Tournament 2004 (UT3 is a console abomination) the "speed" difference of a skilled player compared to average players was more than 20-30 seconds for pure cap (spawn from base, get enemy flag and return it to your flag).

 

- Instanced PvP (I have never understood this)

- Gear dependency on a level that some gear is simply more better, no matter your build

- Lack of enough character customization (Ex. Shadowbane is only one of the few games to do this correctly)

- Lack of death penalty / risk

- Lack of reward (who cares of few points named x that you need to grind for months to get one piece of a gear)

- Pvp stats. I mean seriously, those kill all gear customization all together

- Lack of meaningfulness (Ex. TESO sieging, how is that relevant? Its irrelevant who wins or loses)

- Treadmills of ANYKIND

 

Originally posted by LovrNoFightr

Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.

Why is that?

I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.

 

 

I have never understood this either. It's the same as claiming that working in a factory where you repeat the same action 8 hours a day is a "fun job." I'm starting to think that grind can only be enjoyed when one is an utter simpleton.

 

When OP listed his suggestions, only one sentence came into mind:

 

"Hey, that's Shadowbane for you." Unfortunately, as beloved as the game is by its fans, the game itself had the utmost best concept for MMORPG available, but the execution was so ridiculously poor it failed to bring forth massive amount of subscriptions (yet it one could still call it a success by that days standards). 

The instant-gratification era is the thing that has ruined RPGs. No one wants any setbacks anymore, players want a smooth, easy experience that flows them through the content with no effort at all. Risk has to be minimized, and nowadays people even consider corpse runs too much of a death penalty (which I personally find utterly ridiculous). Perhaps I'm yet another bitter old school MMORPG player who keeps waiting for that another high from games like SB / UO / AC : DT... Which I will most likely never get.

 

ESO numbers are in decline for a simple reason: IT OFFERS NOTHING NEW TO MMO GENRE.

 

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Exploit:

Create a shard.

Have your friends play on your shard, and plant loot chest with legendary items in them.

 

They loot it, and switch to another shard and kick other people ass with the powerful weapons that were just given to them.

I don't think they allow shard hopping, at least they shouldn't. Just because that is the first thing to cross everyones minds.

 

Played both of them, and if I had to choose, I would play Elder Scrolls Online. Yet I cancelled my sub to that game as well, so I chose "I dislike both". Whilst I do not dislike them, they both bored me enough to the point I wouldn't play either one of them.

 

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 


Originally posted by Flyte27
On the flip side you get a lot of fairly bland games that anyone can play.  This is fair for everyone and appeals to a lot of people, but on the flip side the games are just not very good IMO.  They are generally based on non stop combat these days and the combat is generally not that challenging outside of PvP and endgame raid.  There are always going to be people who are left out in a more challenging or time consuming game.  I was never the best by a long shot and chose to avoid the groups that are spoken of in this thread.  I still progressed and had a lot of fun.  I didn't need kill in groups.  I was happy with challenging solo content, freedom of choice, and interacting with others outside of combat.  I feel that MMOs today are just to dumbed down for me to enjoy.

 


Well my primary point behind the reply I made was that having high levels of exclusivity its simply just bad for business. I mean would you want to pay box price $40-50 and then a $15 per month sub and then have access to only 1 of 4-5 40-man raids? Not only that will you continue to pay $15 a month and then spend 6-8 hours per day trying to acquire the gear to progress? Then on top of that run the risk of losing your main tank to the appeal of the "higher tiered" guilds. Many might of forgotten how it was like, but this was the state of 40-man WoW raids in Vanilla/Burning Crusade. I played the game often and spent many weekend trying to get 40 people (usually 38 or 39 after waiting 1-2 hours after posted times). We progressed have done well, but it took us a lot of time to figure out each fight after we finally figure out another one even with guides etc. and then when we finally got to Rag and couldn't take him down the first 2-3 weeks, our main tank up and left with all the gear we let him have, which generally places the guild back on square 1 in teaching another main tank and then getting him gear only to run that risk again.


Now after all of that being said, would the average joe want to continue paying $15 and then potentially not get anywhere because the average joe isn't the elite gamer and spends a lot less time on the game (but could be just as capable of learning the encounters, just limited by its gear). It's a bad deal overall and the reason why WoW had to change its model if it cared about its retention (especially as newer MMO's were coming out).


In regards to your post, its a matter how much you want to extrapolate out what is being said, no one said to make the game easy, but you can make a game accessible without making it easy. I like FFXIV current system, which seems to add more challenges while still allowing things to be within reach and generally their higher tiered things are a challenge to get to but not impossible and then the barriers tend to go down when the next set of dungeons come out (but the difficulty remains the same). This way I don't have to decide between leaving a group of friends/family because they are too casual and join up with "elite" gamers who socially I could care less about.


For the record I personally don't want to go back to those vanilla days, it might look good on paper but there's a reason why MMO's have progressed into where they are at today and it's not because people aren't a little bit happier with the newer variation of the systems as opposed to using the old ones. When you nostalgia remember the bad as well as the good.

This is why I assaulted the time-based progression pattern, todays gamers don't have 6-8 hours a day to crawl through dungeons. Why cannot the dungeon encounters be 15 minute fights, that are extremely difficult. That way they do not require time, but reward player skill. Naturally, the difficulty wouldn't be such a wall at the beginning of end-game content, but the difficulty should rise steadily. The progression would be then tied to player skill, and not time spent in the dungeon. I hate nothing more as a PvPer to run into Pve content, which I admit can be fun at the times, but why do the dungeons have hundreds of trash mobs to clear, that you'll clear with 100% efficiency, the only problem is that these trash mobs add few extra hours to the dungeon run, its actually counter-productive to what you're stating.

So let's say the end-game has 3 dungeons, 5 bosses each, on difficulty scale of 1-100:

  • Dungeon 1
  • Boss 1: Difficulty 5
  • Boss 2: Difficulty 10
  • Boss 3: difficulty 25
  • Boss 4: Difficulty 50
  • Boss 5: Difficulty 75
  • Dungeon 2
  • Boss 1: Difficulty 10
  • Boss 2: Difficulty 25
  • Boss 3: Difficulty 50
  • Boss 4: Difficulty 75
  • Boss 5: Difficulty 100
  • Dungeon 3
  • Boss 1: Difficulty 25
  • Boss 2: Difficulty 50
  • Boss 3: Difficulty 75
  • Boss 4: Difficulty 100
  • Boss 5: Difficulty 100
And a player with relatively low gear could easily beat down bosses up to difficulty 75 (Gear-wise, player skill would be required), so he could complete Dungeon 1 with low-tier end-game items. Naturally it would be somewhat easier to complete a dungeon with gear that is more powerful, but the challenge should remain in the encounter, not time- or gear- basis. And players who are of average or lower skill level could still run all of the dungeons up to certain bosses, allowing them to access the content with the promise of completing a challenge allows them to reach another one.
 
Now, this brings up the point whether the average joe wants to play such game, where the boss might annihiliate him and his group constantly (Note that the PvE encounters necessarily wouldn't have to be 40 man runs or anything). But at least game series like Dark Souls have shown us people still want that challenge.
 

As the title states, todays immediate-rewards society has shifted MMO trends to allow players to complete all of the games content without an effort. No longer you are required to socialize to gain friends, guild or clan mates, or even rivals.

 

This, among other things has shifted the typical MMO player into not thinking through possibilities, and shift the blame on previously obvious solutions to faults at game design (it can never be an user error). This new school way of thinking is damaging MMOs and dumping them down.

 

Prime examples:

"Ganking of lower levels is griefing" - So a player of enemy faction slays his enemy. On paper this doesn't sound bad at all, its in the games design. Enemy is enemy, and should be put down. However for a solo player, who happens to be the low level, and the victim in this assault, it creates negative thoughts around the game. Back in the good old days, when people got flayed by a higher level, they simply called out help to deal with the enemy. Nowadays though, they state that such behavior is "Not ok" or that it is "Griefing of players" when the solution is absolutely simple: If you cannot handle something solo, you call out for help to deal with the problem.

 

"All content should be accessible to all of the players" - A statement that sounds good on paper. Why shouldn't all players have access to all of the games content, especially if they are paying a subscription to the game. The reason is quite simple,. actually. The moment you open up the content to everyone, you automatically dumb down the games difficulty so less than average skill player can complete it. This dumps down not only the games difficulty, but the mechanics and strategies required to complete the game. Good example of such behavior is Diablo 3. While its only an RPG, the Inferno difficulty was drastically dumped down in the later "Inferno nerf" patch so everyone could complete the said content, this was based on player statements that it was simply too difficult. Yet during the time the nerf came, every class had completed the Inferno difficulty, some with better gear than others. Surely it was extremely difficult for some, but wasn't the original idea of Inferno that you are faced with a grim reaper punching you in the face, not you punching the grim reaper into the face repeatedly? Remember those lovely, difficult raids that weren't necessarily gear dependent, but man did they require cordination to complete? Well, with todays trend those things are history.

 

Group finder tools - Sure, this answers directly to the demand for immediate satisfaction consumers, but what it truly does is annihilating the last remaining socializing of solo players in MMO. These days people select the content, and press "Search". They join a group, at maximum state a greeting, go the select content and if something goes wrong, they just bail the ship and look for a group that can complete the select content faster. Whats more rewarding, wiping multiple times in a dungeon and finally completing it with a group, or pressing "search" enough times to get a group that gets the job done fast, when both take actually equal amount of time to complete? This also applies to PvP content. I still recall the good old days when someone just yelled in the streets that he is forming a raid to enemy territory, and requesting people to join him. Today, you press H/J/K whatever the PvP finder button is, and press "search" so you will be immediately taken into PvP action with no socializing required.

 

Effort-based progression - Read: Time-based progression. When did all of the MMOs progression shift to a simple pattern: Time spent in the game = progression. This is the real killer, and is tied directly to contents avaibility. Why do people seem to think its a good solution that your character gains power, regardless of players individual skills as a player if the player plays enough? What's the point in that exactly. The best PvP gear can be attained by afking your way in the PvP content, the best gear from PvE comes directly from resources you gain for even trying to complete the content. It's gotten to extremely ridiculous point. So many are looking for challenge, and everything is catered to the sheep flock of todays consumers I'd like to call with all names possible. 

 

Progression should never go backwards - This is a double-edged sword. If players can shift in their progression backwards too much, it really hurts the enjoyement of the game. But is it really the sharper edge of the two? Players not having any set backs nullifies the possibility of risk. Having no risk in MMO content means there's really nothing at stake, making the games casual strolls around the park in acid when nothing matters. Which one would you prefer: Your heart beating out of your chest when you play in adrenaline infused rage, or wiping drool from your cheek every 5 minutes when you have to slap yourself not to fall a sleep during content? Best part is, in the 90's losing all your gear wasn't actually considered that severe of a punishment for dying. Ask that from typical immediate-rewards gamer.

 

Fairness and balance for everyone! - Sounds like a declaration of presidental canditates speech.  Yet today this is actually a subject to moaning. MMO balance used to follow a simple statement: "If its balanced in group play, or has a relatively simple counter - no matter how powerful it is, as long as it can be countered, its in balance." Today, nope. Everything gets dumped down so brainless player can match the set up, even if he has no counter to it. It just happened in the Elder Scrolls Online with Devouring Swarm ability. Those who do not know what it is: It was ultimate ability, costly point-blank AoE that dealt damage and gave you health based on the damage dealt. The trick was to utilize this ability by wearing gear that made the ability extremely cheap; Allowing people to spam it. Now, the ability was bugged in two ways: It could be stacked, and its healing worked in a damage-shield that should have disallowed healing. Yet the counter to this ability was so simple even a trained monkey would realize it after a while: Do not stand in the AoE, especially with a group since the abilitys efficiency is obviously tied to number of players it hits. What happened? People cried the ability was OP, and instead  of fixing the bugs tied to the ability: Zenimax nerfed the whole vampire skill tree to the ground. Absolutely disgusting. What would have been the other option? Zenimax could have simply fixed the bugs and stated that the ability was easily countered by not standing in the AoE. Surely if a player could win a  1 v 10 it sounds shifty, but really, when the solution to win a fight was so simple, all you can blame are the players, not the ability.

What does this do? It kills the strategies and out-of-box thinking in MMOs. Remember when you were about to set foot in a game, and you had a whole paper sheet ready where you had theorycrafted ideas for your character, what he's going to use with what? Non-existent. That brings us to:

 

Lack of blueprints - I call this plague by the term. No longer are players required to do any sorts of planning, no matter the content. You just play, there's no real reason to put those brain cells to good use. And why, its catered to the immediate reward society where you shouldn't be really wasting your time planning, but only to do something. Again it lowers the value of gameplay.

 

TL;DR Todays MMO features that cater to make the content more easy and accessible are hurting the value of said content by lowering the standards in todays game play. And people just accept that without swallowing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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