Originally posted by Ihmotepp

.............edited out for length

Solo, it's just mash the buttons.

Group, in  a good group game mind you, not something that isn't designed for groups like WoW, you can come up with multiple strategies depending on the size of your group, and the classes, and levels. You must coordinate very closely, or you will get a party wipe.

That was the game play in EQ and DAoC classic. In a game like WoW, for example, you are right. Being in a group before the raid, just means running around like chickens with your heads cut off, and you still beat the mob.

you need to play a real grouping game to actually compare the difference. Try DAoC classic server.

You have obviously never done heroic ToC 25 man. There are fights in that raid that if ONE PERSON does something idiotic, like what you're describing, you very well may NOT succeed.

Not every single fight and instance in WoW is "easy breezy peasy pie."  The people who go around SAYING so....are making it breathtakingly apparent that they have either never run those instances, never succeeded, or were the ONLY person in the raid that didn't know what they were doing and got LUCKY that the other 24 people could carry their dead weight.

Edit: I apologize for this being a bit off topic, but there was no way I was going to let that comment slide by unaddressed.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Babylon9000

Learn to seperate reality from fiction. - This is a huge problem in our society these days.

People finding entertainment in harmful (to others) activities is a much worse one.

If you enjoy performing evil acts in a game, then you do, indeed, have a problem.

 

While the highlighted statement above, is INDEED true. It is also true that a huge problem in our society is in not realizing the power of the mind itself.

"Brainwashing," of ANY KIND is a very powerful conditioning tool.

Example:  Why do you suppose it is SO DAMN DIFFICULT for someone that was raised a fundamental Christian, to open their minds to examine ANY other possibilities for the origins of life outside of creationism?  And before people start saying, "Because they're idiots," let me remind you that they have been completely IMMERSED in this belief system, many of them, from birth.

If you are told something over and over and over again....eventually, your mind assimilates it as "fact."  In the military, they taught us this as a type of interrogation technique.  Repetitive "conditioning" to the mind is a very powerful tool that can be used for health and well-being, as well as for destructive purposes.

I think people greatly underestimate the power of the human mind, and also it's inherent weakness to constant suggestion, whether subliminal or outright.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Babylon9000

Learn to seperate reality from fiction. - This is a huge problem in our society these days.

People finding entertainment in harmful (to others) activities is a much worse one.

If you enjoy performing evil acts in a game, then you do, indeed, have a problem.

 

I can see both sides of this "disagreement" we all seem to be having here.

While I wholeheartedly agree that a game is NOT reality (and neither are motion pictures), one is passive and one is interactive. If passively watching a motion picture were the best training device for battle, then the military wouldn't use video games and interactive media in their training programs. They would simply sit them down and have them watch films. Human beings tend to learn more effectively when they are not just seeing, but having other senses immersed in the learning process as well.

Interactive, hands on participation in ANYTHING, whether a game or cooking, for that matter, conditions you better to perform the REAL task you're learning much better than simply watching a film about it. This is a combination of training the muscles (motor skills) to react and act, and training the mind to perceive and respond. It's even used in grade school classrooms on computers to help children to more easily learn even basic mathematical skills.

Don't you suppose there is a reason these methods are being used more and more? They're used....because short term studies show that they WORK.

In your above statement, however, I underlined two words....."enjoy" and "evil."  I underline these words because they are the operative words, in my opinion, in that sentence.

If you are playing a video game and you "enjoy" some "evil" act  (let's use a crime against children as an example, because I think pretty much everyone can agree on THAT being "evil").....say you're stabbing a child with a bayonnet in a war game, or even more horrific, raping one of the enemy's female children....whatever.....if you ENJOY THIS, even in the context of a GAME.....I would have to say that there is quite possibly something askew within your personality at the very least. I don't think it's generally without some form of social aberration that one could find those things "enjoyable," even when the actions are not "real."

BUT....this conclusion brings us RIGHT BACK to square one.  If "immoral"  (for lack of a better word)  behavior in a video game has a cause and effect real life consequence.....I believe it predominantly originates with  PRE-EXISTING psychological pathology.  A mentally healthy individual will not suddenly be turned into a mass murderer as a result of playing an interactive video game. 

Yet I wonder what the research would show if that SAME mentally healthy individual was isolated outside of normal social relationships, and intentionally conditioned via this interactive means, TO become a killer (something akin to how the military conditions recruits to "acceptable and needful killing")?  A purposeful conditioning using these means to train anyone for anything, according to research, seems to show promise, at least at the short term level. This is why it's used by the military for both warfare and flight simulation (and even helping those with post traumatic stress), and....in a different form....in the public school system to teach other types of things.  It's called "Immersion Training." (Immersion Training uses a combination of real life role-playing AND virtual play).

There are no LONG TERM studies (spanning 20 years or more), as of yet, to show the long range outcome of such immersion training or therapy. So really....our whole conversation here is really, on both sides, heavily laced with speculation.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo

I am a sadistic bastard. I loved the no Russian level. It was fun. I laughed gleefully as I mowed people down because I was like "wow I can't believe they are allowing this." I would never do such a thing in real life of course

You don't know that. If you enjoy doing it in a game (as you admit), then you might well do it in real life, as long as you know you will not suffer any consequences from doing so.

but it was a fun surprise. People need to realize it's just a game. Its not real. What about violent TV shows, movies, books, and the like?

There is a moral difference between watching someone else commit evil, and doing it yourself.

Your last comment...about the difference between WATCHING evil and doing it yourself, made me think of this.

I absolutely unashamedly enjoy the Showtime series called DEXTER. I have watched every single episode of every season to date. I find it to be fantastically creative writing and one of very few compelling television shows on today. For those that have been living in a cave and don't know....DEXTER is the story of a serial killer. And some of the scenes in the show are bloody horrible and brutally graphic. You could reason this away with, "Yes, but Dex only kills people who kill innocent people. He's really a vigilante." And while that might be true....the WAY he "takes justice into his own hands," can be really frightfully awful, to be honest.

Would I PLAY Dexter in a game and....in a game....kill people and chop them into bits and throw their body parts into the ocean?  Uhmmmm.....no. I would not be at all interested in a game like that or in roleplaying a violent criminal.  But...admittedly....that is just ME and how I personally feel about the difference between interactively ACTING OUT the role of a serial killer, and watching one on a story on television. Acting it out, and actually being in control of a character that does those things....would probably make me vomit.

Killing other human beings isn't the same, to ME, as killing elves, orcs, and dragons, or other assorted fairytale creatures. This is also why I don't really enjoy PvP as an over all style of play, although I have done it.....some. And it's definitely why I don't play ANY....that's zero, nada, zip....war games.  To me....war isn't a good game "topic."  

Now I realize that a LOT...a whole lot....of gamers do not share my feelings and thoughts about this, and I'm perfectly okay with that. But I also think there are a great many gamers that DO think and feel the same way I do about this.

I absolutely think in a game, a gamer should be given multiple choices about how to handle things....much like in Fable. That would ALWAYS be my preference.  If a game FORCES me into doing something that is outside my own moral code....I probably won't be very drawn to play that game.  Granted....this is just ME here.  I don't feel it's my job to determine someone else's sense of morality (if we MUST use that particular word).  At the end of the day...I don't have to live with anyone's conscience but my OWN. Yes....I know games aren't real, the same way as I know television shows and movies aren't real.  But I simply don't feel it's a healthy choice, for me, to interactively play a human being brutalizing other human beings, whether that's re-enacting war, or something more sinister, like in the game "Manhunt," or "Postal 2," or whatever. Those kind of games don't appeal to me.

Just more evidence that gamers are as different as snowflakes...after all....we're human. No two of us are identical in the way we game or in the way we PERCEIVE games. And I don't agree with censorship, even if I don't choose to participate in the potential object OF censorship.

Originally posted by Ceridith

There does seem to be too much emphasis on soloing in MMOs lately. It's not necessarily a bad thing to offer channels of gameplay within an MMO that are presented in a solo friendly fashion, but it's getting to the point where there's increasingly little to no reason to even bother grouping with other players, let alone interact with them.

I have yet to see...in any MAJOR MMO....an instance with bosses that is "soloable." If you want to run dungeons, at least in most games outside of DDO and the first run of the Dragonica "dungeons"....you're going to need SOME SORT of group.

Personally, I have no issues with raiders, small groupers, or solo-ers. We all pay to play the game. In my opinion, MMOs should allow as many options and choices for the players as is reasonably possible within the market group of people to which they cater. In other words....EVE caters to players who like the space thing, and really to those with a penchant and joy for politics and economies. Within that framework, they should allow as many choices for the player as possible, while staying true to their core vision.

Where I personally take issue...is when any one particular gaming style is, essentially,  punished for the way they like to play. If that is going to be the case, then the game pre-views and press and "features" should probably state:  "Not a game for solo play"....or "Not a game for group play."  Now...which of those two comments do you think are more APT to appear on an MMO box....like....EVER. Right.

If you think people who like to group to play are punished or neglected somehow  for their play style....I would certainly like to know where.  MMOs, by nature, have always catered more to people who like to group, and been a lot more difficult for people who enjoyed some solo play as well. I think some companies are just trying to even it out a bit. Often when you go to "balance" things (in life OR gaming) you lean a bit too far to one side in the process before you get things all working as planned.  I think that might be what you're seeing....the balancing process which will teeter back and forth a bit before "settling."

Note: And in case anyone might wonder....I'm in a 350 member raid guild in both WoW (which I no longer play) and EQ2 (which I DO actively play. I enjoy raiding, small groups.....AND SOLOING.  And I'm really not interested in giving up ANY of those options, as I enjoy all of them, depending on the amount of time I have, and the mood I am in. So I am certainly NOT siding with either the "hyper groupers" OR the "hyper soloists." I'm greedy. I want it ALL.

Originally posted by Scalebane

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Scalebane

Originally posted by Evasia

Its just a  GAME, nuff said.

.......edited for length

no i really don't care whether i win or not, i really just play it then log off, sorry if that's weird but then again i'm not all that sane =P   also i have only finished 2 games ever, like i said i just buy something play it off and on then ditch it.  Even in mmo's i get so many hours a week, don't care about progress, just something to do.

Once you put it like that fun or not fun i guess that would be the most emotion i show with a video game, still no attachment, i don't get mad if a game is bad, i don't scream i wasted money on such and such terrible game, guess i'm dull when it comes to gaming -shrugs-

i would agree people are decensitized to violence and stuff, but hey it doesn't bother me one bit, i don't sit here and think about harming people or hating people.  Too many other important things out there then to waste emotions on video games or similar things in general.

oh and on the subject of fun, i rarely get excited if something is fun, i'm pretty much like hey this is fun, not HEY THIS IS FUN!!!!

 

 

You know....you actually sound very stable. Reminds me of my ex-husband. He was like a rock. He was a wonderful person (we were actually friends for years and years after our divorce until he moved to another state).  There wasn't anything "wrong" with him, he just wasn't a very "emoting" kind of person. :)  He wasn't mentally ill, a sociopath, or cold-hearted. He was just very reserved.  His favorite game was DOOM, and he loved killing demons....lol. :D

I don't think you're weird for the way you, personally, use video games as a time filler for "something to do." Nothing wrong with that at all.

You're probably a good example of ...."We're all different."  Just because someone is different than me, or you, doesn't make them less valid in any way.

This is why censorship in gaming is such a ridiculous idea at the bottom line. People are like snowflakes....no two are IDENTICAL. And while a certain video game may not be my personal "cup of tea," it certainly shouldn't prevent anyone else from enjoying it. While it may contain "emotional triggers" for me....that doesn't mean it does for EVERYONE and the opposite can also be said.

Mental illness is an ENTIRELY different topic. This is where the people that want to get rid of violence in games, seem confused, I think. Without treading on the rights of the vast majority to choose their own form of entertainment, whether that is movies, art, games, or golf....there is no way to prevent "bad things" from happening within the minority. If we babysit society to the point of taking away CHOICES....it's not going to prevent people from still doing what they want to do, ultimately.

And before someone says, "but it would only be taking away choices in video game entertainment...." right.  That's how freedom is eroded....one right at a time. The price we, as a society, have to pay for some of our freedoms....is that some people aren't going to be able to HANDLE those freedoms responsibly. But, like I said, we cannot "babysit" society without it eventually becoming a state of martial law. The price for freedom is that sometimes....there will be problems. Sometimes those problems will be big. But it's not worth, in my opinion, giving up the right to make choices.

Life is just not so black and white.

Originally posted by Scalebane

Originally posted by Evasia

Its just a  GAME, nuff said.

while this is true, you will have people argue against it, as you can see.  For me it is a game, i don't really put don't emotionally attached to a video game, yeah i find enjoyment in the entertainment, but honestly my morals don't associate with the fake stuff going on inside a video game.

 

So "enjoyment" has no emotional "pay off" for you? When you "enjoy" something....do you FEEL anything? Do you feel "happy" when you're enjoying yourself?  Do you sometimes laugh?  Those things are based in emotion. Entertainment is made TO INCITE emotion. People are entertained by a lot of different things, and the TYPE of entertainment incites different feelings in different people. So while you may not be "emotionally ATTACHED" to a video game....video games DO cause you to attach emotions to them, even if it's just the feeling of "hey....this is FUN!"

 

Argue whatever you want it just doesn't apply to me, when i leave a game i leave the game, i don't think hey it would be cool to go jack these people cars! lol i think a lot around here have mental issues and want to put that on others.

 

The more telling question than what happens when you "leave a game," would be why do you return to a game?  What makes you want to come back and play it again?

 

i play all games, i don't care what happens in the game, kill innocents? sure thing, kill villians? sure thing, kill kids? sure thing...its not real to me in any way, if it is too you, well i guess it sucks to be you then.

 

It's not entirely true that you "don't care what happens in the game." If that were true....you wouldn't bother to play the game. At the very least....you care if you win. You may not FREAK OUT if you don't....but you care about winning. You WANT to win. When you want something....that's "caring about it."

 

The rest of your statement there I do buy. No...it's not real. But games can stimulate real FEELINGS about things that happen in them, unless you're a sociopath and have no feelings.  Movies do the same thing. THOSE, quite frankly, are the people that shouldn't play games.  I'm not worried about the normal people that have feelings and realize that, yes.....it's a GAME.  They play games of all kinds and are able to differentiate between the feelings you might have playing a game, OR.....watching a movie..... that might make you tear up, because the story is sad, or whatever. It's the ones, like you said really, that are ALREADY mentally ill in some severe way, that can become problematic by re-enacting violence over and over virtually. Those people just MAY NOT be stable enough for playing in virtual worlds.

 

However....do I think games should be censored because of a minority?  Absofuckinglutely NOT.

Originally posted by Kordesh

 They actually "score" gear now? I was waiting for that cesspool (WoW) to crap out yet another bullshit elitist raid metric. 

Just FYI....Blizzard and WoW have nothing to do with the "gear scoring." That little "over all gear score" thing comes from mods like InventoryOnPar (IOP) or GearScore (GS). Yes, WoW still has The Armory, however....it doesn't "score" your gear, but these mods are like insta-calculators that figure in item level of gear, stats, etc. They also may come from WoW Heroes web site, which is another place someone can critique your gear (or if you're so inclined...you can critique your own, even comparing it to someone elses).

People have started using these in the interest of saving time and having to personally look over every item a person is wearing to determine their "usefulness," sadly. I will tell you....it can be pretty soul-crushing after a long day at work, coming home to play, and then getting told that all the gear you've spent so much time working for is useless and no one wants to let you help in any raids. I'm sure that might sound silly, but....yup....after a while, I just said "fuck it," I have better things to do (that are more FUN) than to obsessively chase the latest greatest gear, and so...... "bye bye WoW."  I have felt much more content since I left. I don't pay to play a game, to come home and feel MORE STRESS after a stressful day. No thank you.

EDIT:  I have to add here....that trying to run extremely high end raids like ToC 25 being under-geared or with others who are under-geared....is also ridiculously stressful and pretty much a guaranteed fail. So I am NOT SAYING that gear doesn't matter. It starts "mattering" at Ulduar 25 (in WoW). You can completely forget about being able to successfully run ToC 25 in greens or blues. You'd get laughed at without mercy if you even THOUGHT you could do that. lol

More importantly.....gear score mods can't gauge a persons ability to listen to directions, cooperate in a group, measure their reflexes or ability to THINK when something goes differently than expected, determine their annoying personality traits, reveal whether they're honest or a ninja looter, or weigh the level of their emotional instability and likelihood to go "bipolar" suddenly during looting or in response to any given thing anyone DOES.  

Now....when they come up with a "score mod" that can do all that.....THEN, and only then, would I consider them truly advantageous.  (LOL....I'm kinda kidding....but only....a little.)

Funny thing is....these things aren't even very accurate and are totally inconsistent.  WoW Heroes give my warlock a gear score of 2390, whereas IOP gives me something lower by like 200 points. I'm not sure if IOP figures in enchants, gems, etc. So whatever "gear score" people are seeing for you....it's nothing more than an estimate, at best.

Originally posted by Zorvan01

Originally posted by Dyner

HelloKitty Island is thatta way ---->

If I want morality....I'll go to church.

 

Nowadays, church is the LAST place to look for morality.

Well stated. One need only watch the evening news to see THAT.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by firefly2003

Dont ruin it for the rest of us that have hair on our balls.....

What about those of us who shave?

Err...hmmph....

What about those of us that don't HAVE balls?

Originally posted by svann

Originally posted by metalhead980

 

Certain things shouldnt be easily seen. Things like faction standing, passed achievements should be totally private because that stuff is used by elitist assholes to refuse people groups and just generally hate on other players with less experience.

 

 

 

Wow.  You play with some real jerks.  I never heard of such thing happening in 10 years of mmos.

Well....from what I've seen in my last 15 years of online gaming....this sort of behavior became pretty common with WoW.  And yes....because so MANY people play it....there are a LOT of "jerks," and they do INDEED do just what he said they do.

Originally posted by Midare

Frostbite had some good points, self-reliance and avoiding unreliable players (basically the same thing) but one could say that self reliance and not needing to rely on others could be fulfilled in a solo RPG that isn't online.

 

While I myself am not a solo-player, I have a close friend who is. I've actually had this discussion with him rather recently. The point we come down to is that a MMOG's "world" extends beyond just the grouping and questing. There is interaction with people in the towns, supporting newer players, chatting with friends while you go about your business, and other social involvement.

 

His big attraction is game economies, he's a business geek, he loves essentially farming for materials and pushing the extremes of the market. Learning how a particular game's market flows is fun for him, and that is what he likes about MMOGs. That is what he enjoys, and something which this genre provides better than a solo game can... since the solo game would be static as he is the only factor in any market a solo game provides. It is far more interesting, for him, to compete against others for resources, to fuck with the economy to make a better profit for himself.

 

That's one reason people who solo "content" may play an MMOG.

Actually....you gave more than one reason. :)

I found myself and one of my friends in your post too.

I'm one of those high levels that enjoys going to the newbie zones, not to "gank" people or be an ass....but to show them what they have to look forward to, to help them find things if they're lost, to show them around if they want some introduction, and to make sure they know that if they have any questions or anything...I'll try to help, and if I can't...I'll try to get someone that can...stuff like that.  I LIKE that big sister social thing. :) I don't force any of it on anyone, of course, but I just simply go to those zones sometimes to just wave and say hi and see if anyone needs anything. To me....that's fun.  And I do it solo, because most people have absolutely less than zero interest in doing it WITH me...lol.

Fact of the matter is, most of us probably play MMOs because there is something about the social aspect of it, or competitive aspect of it (competition is ALSO social), that interests us. BUT.....we don't all have to play the game the SAME WAY.  Like in RL....variety makes virtual life INTERESTING.

I have a friend that loves to play the broker (auction house). She loves doing that...to her, it's competitive and interesting. I...find it terribly boring. But I'm not paying her gaming bills. :) And....when we DO group to quest or run an instance....she's very competent as a teammate. But it certainly doesn't mean she must be a "teammate" 24/7.

Do any of us "group" in real life all the time?  Or do most of us enjoy a little solitude sometimes?  Yeah....simple.

Originally posted by Toquio3

If you dont like to solo, then you dont need to see the point. ill just say this: its a personal choice. you like certain things, other people like different things. does this sound too hard to compute?

I love this response.

We are NOT all the same. We do not all play games the same way. We do not all ENJOY the same things. Choices....are GOOD.

I personally solo sometimes because it's part of roleplaying for me. I'm also a crafter. If I'm playing a role in a game and I'm a carpenter....how likely is it that my character would take someone with them to work?  Meaning....I have to go harvest a lot of woods and metals in a zone with a lot of aggro. So.....should I GROUP to go to "work?"  That's just not how I "see" my character.

That is only one reason to "solo." There are plenty of good reasons. Another reason I sometimes solo is because it's relaxing "alone time" for me to just enjoy my game of choice, and another....is that I have to play odd hours due to my RL work schedule.

You really shouldn't be so presumptuous as to tell others they "must group," OP. They pay their own monthly gaming bill and they're not breaking any game rules by choosing to do this, ya know?

And....the "reason" that MMOs are my genre of choice (and more precisely mmoRPGs) is because I like the feeling of being a part of a "living, breathing, growing 'world'" in my games. A place where things are "happening" and I can get involved in those "things," or....I can do a cornucopia of OTHER things!  There is variety. I like games with variety that don't FORCE me to solo all the time, but nor do they force me to group ALL the time. There are options to choose from many different things to do at any given time.

Originally posted by Ephimero

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by xapno

Originally posted by veego590

Originally posted by glofish

Originally posted by veego590

 

Whatever happens with YOUR account is YOUR responsibility. Coming here and claiming that it is somehow NCSOft's fault that you have not secured your account is ludicrous.

 

You are at fault 100% Bailiff! case closed. All rise.

 

 So let me get this straight..its MY fault some random guy hacked into my account for whatever reason he chose me at random..and got my account banned? Its Ncsofts lack of security that should have prevented him getting my master account information.. how could I have prevented myself from getting hacked form THEIR end??

 

Ignorant people like you deserve to have there account stolen after a post like this.

You do not get "hacked" unless you downloaded something you shouldnt have. Someone does not steal your info without infecting you a type or spyware or virus.

Im going to take a wild guess you downloaded a bot, and then lost your account ? humm keylogged maybe.

They cant secure your computer for you.

There are 1000 different ways you could have had your account stolen, but in the end, its your fault for not protecting yourself.

 

Great logic there. Why dont we apply that to all criminal activities.

"Oh you get raped in the park during night in a dangerous neighborhood. Why where you walking in a park, during night in a dangerous neigborhood? Ignorant people like you deserve to get raped.

There are 1000 ways to get raped and in the end it is your fault for getting raped, not the rapist or society for not providing enough security"

Hacking is an illegal activity and it is never a victims fault he got hacked.

 

If I go to a bar filled with black people, wearing a torch and a white dress/cone hat, would my broken ribs be my fault?

 

No.

Because the people attacking you (however RIGHT it might appear in the case you just mentioned....hell, I'm white and I'd WANT to beat the shit out of you MYSELF).....STILL MAKE THE CHOICE TO ATTACK YOU.

When the fuck did people stop taking accountability for their own ACTIONS in this world. No one MAKES you do ANYTHING. Unless you're a complete and utter moron, you make decisions and take actions, of your own volition....and that is regardless of what stimuli preceded YOUR action.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Well you should not stick up for a game if it "claims" to be in beta.Beta is not some brand new project that is still in creation,Beta is a FINISHED product that may need tweaks or fixes,this sounds more like INCOMPLETE witch would barely be Alpha stage.

This alone means they should be refunding,because they outright lied if they claim this is the beta product and nothing is finished.When you are CREATING the game ,that is the creation stage that is well before Alpha,that is when you are still making things work,like the UI ect ect,still designing the maps,the textures ect ect.When you are in that phase you don't tell people to buy your BETA product,because that sends out false hope [lies] that you HAVE a working product that WILL be playable,after all that is the purpose of you buying the game,to play a decently FINISHED game.

There is not a single game ever made outside of some console games,that does receive patches and updates,it is to be expected,but when things are missing,that is not a bug or exploit,that is NOT finished.As i said a NON finished product is NOT BETA.

BETA is very simply the TESTING stage,to see if the finished product has bugs /flaws/exploits/stability issues.You of course DO NOT test something that is not there,because how could you test something that is not there? lol,impossible.

I think you have something here.

When did we get so slack and apathetic about our definitions, as gamers?

This post sort of makes me feel stupid, because....it lets me know that I have paid to Alpha test a couple of times in my past. I don't even like the idea of paying to BETA test, much less ALPHA test, and this....this looks even more extreme than that. I think you're right. Games go into beta testing when they are pretty much feature complete and those features all need testing and tweaking before release.

I have paid for games before release a few times (not something I commonly do), BUT....there's no way in hell I'm trusting some unknown developer enough to fork out 100 bucks when the game is in the state you guys are describing.

I'm starting to think this whole "pay for beta testing thing" needs to come with at LEAST the added "perk" of having ones name on the game credits somewhere as a financial contributor to game development. It's all getting a little ridiculous.  lol

Originally posted by Predator160

 

Futhermore, in the days of UO (I was there), rpgs, and the "new" MMOrpgs, were truly considered a nerdfest type of thing. It didn't make you "kewl" to play rpgs. That was not a measure of your "coolness factor." No one in your grade school class was going to ask you if you played UO and then laugh when you said no. So no....there likely would not have been the ENORMOUS influx of MMOs that we see today....had it NOT been for WoW.

 

Now whether that is good or bad, long term, for the genre....I think really remains to be seen. What WoW DID do....is bring an awfully lot more people into the hobby of PC gaming. I'm not sure that this is TOTALLY a bad thing. After all.....since game developers now see that PC gaming (of any genre) has become a more socially "acceptable" hobby....they're producing all KINDS of games and a lot OF them...some good, some not so good (or even "clone-ish), but nonetheless....we're getting a lot of games.

I wanna run with that idea---

I've played the MMO genre since EQ. I started EQ in 4th grade (i'm 20 now). Back in elementary school I was kind of an outcast--no one played MMO's...much less computer games. The big thing was console games. It was this way until WOWcame out in High School- suddenly all of my friends played MMO's and then it was the 'cool' thing to do. I've since become a bit jaded- and a bit irritated that my indulgence was seen as  'nerdy' until WoW came out. I have mixed feelings about it...im happy WoW brought in more players to the genre, but I also want reparations- the WoW community neeeds to know that there were other games (and people who played them) before this one.

Amen and amen.  I wholeheartedly agree.  But it's unlikely that any of them will listen to us now, because they all have learned how to flex their "epeen" and think they are WAY cooler than we "nerds" were "back in the old days."

In THAT way.....WoW has definitely been detrimental (alongside from being bad in some other less personally insulting ways, I'm sure).  It did bring more people into PC gaming, however,  with more people....comes more people that we don't like and some that are outright douche bags.  Win some lose some, I guess.

And yeah, I've always despised how something is only "cool" if millions and millions of people do it. Society, in many respects, hates originality and loves....LEMMINGS. "I was an rpg'er before rpgs were cool."  or  " I played MMOs long before you even knew what a kobold WAS." We should make t-shirts.  lol  ;)

Originally posted by Pocahinha

Why remove? they are there for people to choose...if you dont wanna play a healer dont...but some people do..its a choice

 

If they remove healers then people wont have a choice

I think and feel this way about it too. We need MORE class options, not less. And eliminating a class archetype that many people enjoy playing....doesn't seem like an improvement, to me.

Sure...I think class mechanics probably need a good overhaul in some games, but taking CHOICES away, when it comes to gaming....I don't see that as any kind of improvement.

Originally posted by tazarconan

If hypotheticallly wow wouldnt apear 2 things would happen.

1.A pite of wow pvpiers would join games like uo /sb/aoc. The big pve pite of wow players would rather scater to eq2 /Lotro/ddo.

2.Wow affected due to its sales numbers and success loads of p2p and f2p mmorpgs that came afterwards. So if  Uo was the N1 mmorpg out there we would have by now more uo like mmorpgs. Surely the state of mmorpg scene would be diferrent. You would have more niche rpgs than themeparks out there.If you accept the fact that Uo was a game that focused on freedom and loads of choises build houses,unlimited almost progress on your character,exploration,free pvp,achive titles that actually meant something serious in the game,break in other houses steal their staff from their houses if you raised lockpick for example in high lvl,true interactivity  and loads of other things Uo had and ont eh other hand see the restricted options wow has well i think gameplay would evolve alot more in mmorpg scenery since there would be made much more niche mmorpg's than there are now.

But all these are hypothetically ofc.

Actually no....in my opinion. Reason being, that if  WoW, as you put it, "would not appear," there wouldn't BE ENOUGH players of MMORPGs for a "lot" (I assume that's what a "pite" is) of them to go to other games that are out right now.  As a matter of fact, some of those games themselves might not exist, had Blizzard not "paved the way" for MMOs to be considered on such a grand scale.

Prior to WoW, Everquest was considered "huge" in player numbers. BUT....it was taking a bit of a bad rap because of the addictive nature of the game, and the highly publicized destroyed marriages, etc., and so on, that were a result of such an absorbing hobby. But there were not NEAR as many very young people playing EQ, and the genre was STILL, by and far, considered "geek fodder." Your average Ma and Pa and grade school "baby" makes three... ALL playing EQ....wasn't a very common scenario.

Futhermore, in the days of UO (I was there), rpgs, and the "new" MMOrpgs, were truly considered a nerdfest type of thing. It didn't make you "kewl" to play rpgs. That was not a measure of your "coolness factor." No one in your grade school class was going to ask you if you played UO and then laugh when you said no. So no....there likely would not have been the ENORMOUS influx of MMOs that we see today....had it NOT been for WoW.

Now whether that is good or bad, long term, for the genre....I think really remains to be seen. What WoW DID do....is bring an awfully lot more people into the hobby of PC gaming. I'm not sure that this is TOTALLY a bad thing. After all.....since game developers now see that PC gaming (of any genre) has become a more socially "acceptable" hobby....they're producing all KINDS of games and a lot OF them...some good, some not so good (or even "clone-ish), but nonetheless....we're getting a lot of games.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Words fail me.

Did he buy the game willingly? Yes.
Does it say right on the box that an internet connection and monthly fee are involved? Yes
Does anyone force him to log in and continue playing the game? No.

Is person filing the suit a moron? Yes.

 

 

 

 

Pretty much....that says it all.

I'm not an enormous fan of shooters, although I will cop to liking Painkiller, as twisted as that was, because nothing in gaming is much more fulfilling than dicing zombies to millions of bloody bits with a weapon that resembles a blender made with straight razors....lol. There were no "moral" considerations in chopping up baddies in this game.

ANYWAY.....

I have never had this "moral dilemma" feeling in any MMO. However, I'm a big single player RPG fan, and I have run across that in a couple of single player RPGs....ONE of them to the point that I actually had to LEAVE THE QUEST and go sit on a hill in the game overlooking the city and THINK about what I would do.

To explain, while trying not to spoil anything, those two games where I did actually question the "morals" of my decision, were Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, and maybe MORE surprisingly notable....The Elder Scrolls: OBLIVION.  In the latter, during your "growing up" as an assassin, for the Dark Brotherhood, you are required at one point to decide how to "handle" a certain situation amongst people (npcs) that you  have grown to like and trust. And they have grown to like and trust you. Now you are called upon to perhaps do something very very....horrible.  If you choose to do it.. there may be great benefit to you. However, if you choose not to do it....that also will lead to another path.

I literally.....had to go sit outside of the city walls, on a hill overlooking the town.....and THINK about this decision. And I found myself pondering it very seriously, and reminding myself...."it's only a game."  However, after making the choice that I did....I didn't feel too good about myself. I felt a little ill. I think this speaks to the great immersion of Oblivion.

In VtM: Bloodlines, it was a little easier because, well....even as a more "human" Toreador....I was still a VAMPIRE, ya know? So it made it a little more palatable.  lol.....pun intended. :)

So all in all....I think this tactic can be used in games to create tremendous immersion, for one, and secondly, perhaps.....a bit of self-discovery.  Even if you choose the option you likely wouldn't choose in RL.....at least you stopped to consider your choice for a few minutes....or maybe not. Either way....it says something about us, and about how we view our games.

Great article! I really enjoyed reading it and remembering some times of great decisions that were "life altering" to my characters in games.