From an interview at Ablegamers with Craig Zinkievich, Cyptic, on ST:O;

"There are very few huge intellectual property ideas that are made into video games. It's important for the video game production company to get it right the first time. Take for example the disaster that was Star Wars Galaxies. It was a huge intellectual property that was destroyed because of a bad vision for what the game should become."

Looks like there is a gaming company that is listening.  Arc?  What say you?

I'll be damned if I go thru another 1.  I should have known when it took 2 hours to download the patch.  Everything CHANGED, expertise, combat, dps, equipment, armor rating, etc, etc, etc, right on down the line.  This game wasn't even as good as SWG was in the befores. 

Someday, someone, is going to get my gameing dollars again but it sure will not be SOE or Funcom.

Edit:  and yeah, AoC.  My advise, avoid it like the plague.

Originally posted by Gutboy

No locking a thread is not a put down, however

If you participated in the public testing you would have realized this 2 weeks ago.
 

When there have been many threads by players and devs about how the "needed fix I am sure the devs have not thought about" and the poster demands something fixed that was fixed in the normal testing cycle over 2 weeks ago. And it was not the new community manager who posted is was a real coding dev.

 

And that "coding dev" sounds like, when he grows up, he wants to be just like Blixtev.  Great customer relations, again. 

If I ran my business like that, well, I guess I'd have as many customers as SWG has.

Originally posted by Gutboy

The point is that the devs 2 weeks ago on Test Center fixed the potential problem, the poster asked this question yesterday (the game update for empire day went live today).

And yes the game is worthwhile playing, PvP in Theed and C'net (due to increased tokens given if you are special forces), nice loot to trade in for your tokens (8 person speeder, rebel and imperial house signs, 2 new backpacks, and lots more).

And the 8 person speeder can be deconstructed by a DE to get a different appearance, makes it faster with more "health".

The devs also added in trader and entertainer quests as well for empire day.

Just some more "crits" from the new community manager who seems to get his feelings hurt about a great, many, things.  Nice to know that SOE continues the great customer relations that they had/have "against" current and potential players.  Thought the free months were to show "vets" how much has CHANGED.  I guess some things NEVER CHANGE.  ( some people actualy don't look much at the development forums unless you've been trained by years and years of screw-ups and CHANGES from SOE Austin as you and I appearently have been)

You forgot to add all the exploiting, 3rd party "hacks", still bugged walls and floors in PVP, LS jedi not being designed for PVP, etc, etc, etc.  If it's so great, how come I just left a couple of months ago?  (3 accounts)  Yep, certainly worth playing,  Where?

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Gravez

Originally posted by econ24

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by VoIgore

The most important lesson to learn from SWG is that somewhen you should just let go...instead of STILL and constantly whining about a bug-ridden-beyond-believe game 4yrs(!) after it passed.

 

 

Since one of the producer's of the new StarWars MMO just saw fit to comment on this in a recent interview, I wanted to give actual players of the game a chance to share their views.  I agree this should have been left alone, but it wasn't.  The interviewer decided to exhume the body, and the Bioware guy decided to speculate on the reasons for its demise.

Apparently you weren't up on current events.  That's okay.  You may now consider yourself officially "in the loop."

P.S. the exec seemed to favour answer number 4.

 

You are taking the comment made by Tom Nichols out of context.  The interviewer mentioned SWG having useless classes, Tom merely said they learned from SWG that it is better to have iconic classes that people can recognize.  Tom never stated it was the most important lesson learned from SWG, or the reason that SWG failed.

 

I usually agree with the OP on some things, but he is totally creating something out of nothing and blowing it out of proportion.  Do you really expect LA or Bioware to come out and bash SOE or say that they think SOE sucks and releases unfinished and buggy games? Give me a break. I don't think there is anything SWTOR can do that will make a certain segment of SWG Vets happy (unless it's Pre-cu SWG 2.0).

This is the kind of disagreement I enjoy.  It makes me reflect on my position; it's respectful and focused on the issue.  Thanks for that. 

Did the Bioware guy say that he learned from SWG that games need fewer, iconic, heroic classes?  Yeah, I think he did.  Did he say that in the context of a comment suggesting that a big problem with SWG was too many useless classes?  Unfortunately, yeah I think that was the context.  Was the disastrous revamp of SWG justified by saying that players wanted fewer, iconic classes and that no one wanted to be a moisture farmer etc.? Yes, unfortunately it was.  So, are his comments likely to touch a raw nerve for people?  I think so.  That's just my opinion of course.

When asked about the so-called useless classes.  He could have said, "Hey a lot of people really enjoyed those classes and all of the options the game provided.  SOE may have bitten off more than they could chew, however, with all of the possible variations."  Would that be an accurate statement on his part?  I think so.  When he comments that fewer, iconic classes are the way to go, and that's what he's learned; he unfortuntately appears to align himself with the exact thinking that gave us the NGE.

If asked, I don't think he would want to characterize himself, or his new game in this light; but I think he just did.  I still think he characterized one of SWG's main problems as too many classes that were not iconic enough.  I'm asking if people agree or disagree with this assessment.  This really is just an opportunity for people to share their viewpoint.  Nothing more, nothing less ^_^.

In the tel-con I had with Lorin Jameson, He stated that 32 professions were impossible to balance.  That is what, I believe, SOE/LA took from pre-CU/CU.  And for SOE it may just have been a correct statement.  They are haveing trouble with balance to 9 profs, even today.  Read the jedi forums on LS jedi.  "Please shoot me" and "Fix LS jedi".  A profession that is only designed for 1/2 of the end game content.  (PVE only)

I believe the thing to really learn from the 6 years of SWG, is that SOE Austin made/makes their own problems and trips over their own feet, alot.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by WhiskeyRiver

Originally posted by stillkillin

 

i think its clear

we showed $OE that we vets won the war and now we have to show bioware that tor must be a pre-cu game

 

TOR is its own game, made by its own company.  This isn't SWG2.  Leave your SWG baggage at the door.

 

I'm also more interested in a new start, with a new game, made by a new company.  SWG had it's high points for me, and I'll always remember those, but I'm not at all looking to see it resurrected in TOR. 

Only thing that worries me a bit is the micro aspect that EA let out.
 

As for NGE was called for by LA, I doubt it.  Employees that quit, were fired, let go, etc etc have really no motive to lie, anymore.  In fact, one would think that they would revel in "it's not my fault, so and so did it".

All I can do is as other have done, connect the dots.  Rubenfield did say they "screwed" up an IP by not haveing sub numbers in the millions.  That may, indeed, have came from LA.  SOE's way to fix it?  CHANGE the game after launch.  Rubenfield made referenced to that also.  As Arc said, LA did OK that so they bore the brunt of that action.

As we all know, now, LA bailed on SWG in Dec 05, post NGE.  When they seen all the negative press, negative game sites, and mass exodus for SWG, it was probably the only decision they had left.  So, they went to bioware, who had sucess with their IP and started designing TOR.  SWG was put on maintenance mode, via LA, and left to keep "somewhat" a sub base for TOR.  SOE did know of SW:TOR way before the official anouncement as I got as much from Lorin Jameson via tel-con.  I'm almost sure that SOE was told that as soon as TOR releases, SWG is gone.  SOE, in a last ditch effort to save their game, made a counter-proposal to LA that if they could get SWG profitable again, and able to pay their licence fees, again, that both games could exist at the same time.  I believe LA gave them the chance and this time SOE's efforts were not to go after the millions that WoW has, it was to simply get the "vets" back.  From C6CD to GU-Whatever, there was no large push for new subs, it was just a push to bring "vets" back.  Lorin Jameson kept stateing this fact, over and over and over.  Free months, (Many free months) for vets, sub-systems quasi-like the old systems, creature handler  uhhhhhh, Beastmaster, increased NPC difficulty, etc etc.  However, this CHANGE backfired on them also.  The ones that played the NGE left, now, again, in droves, and the "vets" came and looked, decided that they wanted more of their old game back than a few parts in a NGE wrapper, made a few dishearting post (to SOE) and took off again.  They failed, again, to realise what Rubenfield made clear in his blog.  You can't have major game CHANGES after launch.  A massive patch CHANGE or if it's even done in monthly installments.  It is interesting to note that the formal anouncement for TOR came after the new NGE (C6CD thru GU-Whatever) had failed to produce.  Probably part of the package agreement between SOE and LA.

I would imagine, that now with SWG population being what it is, ("3004 Unique players" in battle fields on 1st day new content, over 26 servers, in a 24 hour period) that SOE has sealed it's fate with SWG and LA.  Smedly even made the comment "sunset" in an interview.  SWG is probably in maintenance mode, with both LA and SOE now, until the release of SW:TOR.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Gutboy

And with todays release of GU10 and the new battlefields you will see a HUGE increase in PvP, I just finished 4 of them (each takes 15 min when you are inside), I got 32,000 GCW points 125 kills. Since the GCW needed to maintain general is now at 12K, every one that does just 1 or 2 battlefields a week will be ranking up quickly.

 

 

That is the huge surge in pvp?

Developer

Joined: May 12, 2006
Messages: 1158
Offline
I want to thank everyone that helped with battlefields. It was a lot of time, effort, and fun making them! I've gathered a few statistics for our first day for you to glance at.

Unique Players: 3004
Total Participation: 7015 (some played more than once)

This was the "huge surge" in PVP posted by HanseSOE (who seemed quite proud of it).  1st day, new content, "huge surge".  3004 players over 26 servers in a 24 hour period.

Originally posted by Gutboy

The "C6" downgrade made stuff harder to kill, however since then people that actually play the game have MUCH better equipment and revamped skills so it's pretty close to how it was before C6.

And with todays release of GU10 and the new battlefields you will see a HUGE increase in PvP, I just finished 4 of them (each takes 15 min when you are inside), I got 32,000 GCW points 125 kills. Since the GCW needed to maintain general is now at 12K, every one that does just 1 or 2 battlefields a week will be ranking up quickly.

With the "new" junk put in with GU-Whatevers, it's close, but not exact.

So, if your going to "downgrade" all the combat abilities (in C6CD), just to add back in those abilities a year later, along with long, long grinds for jedi to complete the "new" additions, then why do it in the 1st place?  As you say, players supposedly ended up at where they were before, only with another year of development,  a bunch more long grinds, or many more credits buying new guns and gear, not to mention the cost of subscription accounts in the 70 - 80 percentile range from what SOE had when they started this "new" NGE.  And to add, in this "new" re-vamp, a profession, LS jedi, that are now not designed for 1/2 the end game content,  (PVP), as they were before C6CD.

Why not, instead of a year just to get back to where you were, actualy come up with some "new" development?  An expansion?  More levels?  New content?  You know, something that's creative and  to actualy subscribe for.

New Statistics posted on the O-boards via HanseSOE;

Developer

Joined: May 12, 2006
Messages: 1158
Offline
I want to thank everyone that helped with battlefields. It was a lot of time, effort, and fun making them! I've gathered a few statistics for our first day for you to glance at.

Unique Players: 3004
Total Participation: 7015 (some played more than once)

 

The total participation is more in line with the GCW numbers.  (Alts?)  I would assume 24 hours and counting all servers.  You all who still play, who you know that didn't try the battle fields the 1st day?  Wonder what kind of total population this would reflect?

Originally posted by BadgerSmaker

Originally posted by Esquire1980

...C6CD...

 

It still makes me chuckle everytime you post that.

Maybe you should campaign for SoE to release Post NGE/Pre Chapter 6 servers, just for you.

I can not take credit for the term C6 Combat downgrade.  It was made by another player who was fed up with CHANGES on the 2 threads that existed when SOE "asked" for feedback.  They had the same effect that feedback requests had at NGE (I'm told).  SOE doesn't want to hear anything, or won't hear anything, except from the fan-bois that say they can do no wrong.

Certainly, if SOE does not have the business fortitude to put up pre-NGE servers to gain back a % of the 300,000 players they had, and lost, with NGE, I doubt they'd put up pre-C6CD servers to gain back some of the 70 - 80 K people they lost at C6CD.  Your campaign to CHANGE the game , yet again, and SOE's complete and utter stupidity is now complete.  Enjoy the current population, Badger?  BTW, Fisher and I, told you and SOE so.  Sorry, just had to get that in.  Concurs with the OP.

You very well know that I agree with you on all the AFK crap that SOE has installed in SWG.  But, again, SOE installs punitive measures on ATK players with the demise of fast spawns that have been in game since, forever, makeing AFK the only way to get quanities of junk loot.  Again, your campaign and SOE's stupidity.  Base busts are another in a long line of CHANGES that effect the status quo.  When you have a complete profession designed around PVE, and not PVP, is it really good design to "take-out" the PVE way of GCW?  I know, you couldn't care less about LS jedi, anyway.

I've moved on.  1 too many CHANGES for me.  I'm in AoC until ST:O launches and I really don't miss SWG, anymore.  It's like something finally clicks and then you're done.  I hope that someday, you get the game CHANGES that your looking for.  As far as I'm concerned, you can have it and CHANGE it anyway you can get and want.  I don't wish the demise of the game for you or any other player that currently enjoys it.  However, SOE will probably take care of that all by themselves, anyway.

It is posts, here, on the refuge forums, from Arc and others, saying how Cryptic has handled games, that makes me look forward to ST:O so much.

While the GCW Officers are not an exact science on determining the total population numbers, they are able to be used as trends.  Fisher was pointing out that at C6CD the GCW numbers were over 12K and now they are at 8K.  Badgers graph shows the decline, after the new wears off of C6CD, and continues on the downward spiral.  The "trend" there, shows a 1/3 loss in population since C6CD.

The in-game population, on the last population thread I'd seen, is a little more drastic than the GCW numbers.  The latest "estimates" that most of the in-game people had, were around 20K to 30K total population, at that point in time.  Smedley released, in an interview at the time of C6CD launch, that SWG had 100K current subs.  If the people that are playing are correct in their estimates, that would show a 70% to 80% loss of population in SWG since C6CD and is pretty close to the population loss, percentage wise, that NGE brought with it, also.

Regardless of the actual numbers, it's is pretty easy to conclude that major game CHANGES effect SWG population.

Good read, as always, Arc!

By C6CD, personaly, I think LA had given up on SWG and bailed.  We all know now, that they had been working on SW:TOR since 05 (post NGE).  SOE knew of TOR long before the speculation ended as I was told as much via tel-con with Lorin Jameson, at about the time of C6CD.  Possibly, LA told SOE to "get the lead out or close" and the mini-NGE (C6CD to GU-Whatever) was SOE's answer that was going to make everything OK.

It is funny to note that the "mini-NGE" was made for "vets", by SOE's thinking.   Harder combat, group content, multi-profession reliance, Creature Hand..... uhhhh Beast Master, etc, etc etc.  There was no large marketing push aimed at new subs, only the free (many, MANY) trials for "vets" to get them to see the new (old) systems.  The vets came and went, again and again.  Most laughed at the game and made not so nice leaving posts on the O-Boards while on the way out.  SO many, that SOE took away the ability for free trial accounts to post on the O-Boards for awhile.  The consensus was, they did not want "some" of their old game back in a NGE skin.  The existing players, that SOE never cared about in any of the game revamps, didn't like it and a bunch did the same as the vets did, post their CHANGED gameplay.  That magical cancel button.  SOE Austin's 3rd try at a revamp and resulting failures were now complete.

I doubt if LA could care less about SWG other than preaching at Bio-Ware not to make the same mistakes.  I would imagine that LA put's it right up there with the Christmas Special.  My best guess is, SWG is meat the minute TOR releases.  As far as I'm concerned, the comic game can have Deadmeat, Blix, and most of the rest of them.  Only one really worth their salt is Adept, but 1 dev can not a game, make.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Seen in this thread:

forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m

Now of course this is only the stats of officers in the GCW. But if you look closely you will see that the game flattens out and begins to decline again after the C6CD (Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade). It never recovers, and continues its decline.

I wish we had MORE information, but SOE insists on keeping that secret, but the only evidence we have reflects what I and others said at the time.

Told ya so, SOE.

Yes, in fact, you most certainly did.

C6CD was the start of Lorin Jameson's and Blix's plan to "NGE" the game, yet again, only in monthly stages, this time.  Appears that the "plan" ended around the end of the GU-whatevers as there really hasn't been any direction since.  The new "mini-NGE" brought "buff-wars", WoW style profession balance (even if LS jedi were only designed for 1/2 the end game content), more very long boring grinds, the death of PVP with all the FOTM profession after re-vamps, more reasons to quit after the resulting NERFS, AFK and 3rd party exploits to the max, etc, etc, etc.

SOE Austin NEVER learned the lesson of CU/NGE even tho they have said they did, many times.  They actually still believe that they can CHANGE the game enough to save it.  And instead of some actual creative development, they continued the WoW-ification of SWG that the original NGE started.

I remember 88 pages of a thread that told SOE exactly what would happen, in fact all of this, after C6CD was on test.

At C6CD, Smedley came up with his 100K subs to SWG.  Best estimates I've seen is somewhere around 20K to 30K subs (maybe lower, maybe higher) so, I would imagine that the "new mini-NGE" (C6CD thru GU-Whatever) cost the same percentages of subs that the original NGE did.  70+% loss!  Only, this time, in increments also, right along with the development/CHANGES.

SOE Austin still continues the CU/NGE/C6CD style of development.  Base busts and "bots".  Even if these are actual exploits, then "fix" them when they are seen, not years after when the playerbase has come to see them as the norm and relys on such as gameplay.  The "takeing-away" CU/NGE/C6CD development continues.  More lost subs?

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by kobie173

Continuing this incessant circular discussion of the NGE is waging a war on reality. Everyone keeps talking about it as if some smoking gun is going to appear so everyone can ... what? Have closure? FINALLY get on with their lives?

It's not hard to figure out. SOE had a game that wasn't doing what it should have been (largely due to SOE's shortcomings), and they did the NGE, they fucked everything up, and it blew up in their faces.

We knew that four years ago. The continued discussion of the who-what-where-when-whys of the situation is just beating that deceased Clydesdale, which by now is an unrecognizable pulp. Find something else to talk about.

 

Respectfully, how is it that you belittle others about discussing this yet in the same post you critisize the NGE just the same? Why is it bad for others yet OK when you do it?

IMO the conversations this topic has generated in these 4 years has made me a more informed consumer with respect to all MMO's. If people had followed the "get over it" advice some try to insist on others then some valuble information and thought provoking concepts would likely never resulted.

I for one like to read ArcAngel's posts for this very reason., and I hope that those who try to stop this type of dialogue are indeed the "vocal minority".

Kobie knows about the effects SOE's CHANGES have wraught on SWG.  Any1 whos been in SWG for more than 3 months knows, maybe they don't want to admit it, but they know.

I, for another, really like Arc's posts.  One of the best memories I have, of these forums, is when Arc and I wrote a nautical history of SWG.  Arc, with "A Perfect Storm" and my finish with "Titanic".  FIsher liked that 1 so much, he put a link to it from his own site.  I believe posts like these, and this forum, has educated most people that come here to what should not be done in a MMORPG.  Everybody gets it, cept SOE, who is really the 1 that should "get it".

LA "gets it".  That is most probably why they bailed on SOE and SWG in 05 when they started talking with Bioware.  STO gets it.  Have you all seen the April fools joke they did on the STO forums?  (It's archived if you haven't)   I really had a good laugh there.  There must have been a dev or 2, for STO, that played SWG for a while.  LOL 

It's was Arc's posts on Cryptic, here, and how they manage a MMO (without massive CHANGES) that has really drawn my interest in STO.

With the new (old) server nearing completion, SW:TOR, and ST:O, there will be plenty of options, very soon.  So, maybe even MMO companies/developers have now "got it" too.

Originally posted by kobie173

Continuing this incessant circular discussion of the NGE is waging a war on reality. Everyone keeps talking about it as if some smoking gun is going to appear so everyone can ... what? Have closure? FINALLY get on with their lives?

It's not hard to figure out. SOE had a game that wasn't doing what it should have been (largely due to SOE's shortcomings), and they did the NGE, they fucked everything up, and it blew up in their faces.

We knew that four years ago. The continued discussion of the who-what-where-when-whys of the situation is just beating that deceased Clydesdale, which by now is an unrecognizable pulp. Find something else to talk about.

Man, I really hate to agree with Kobie.  LOL

Probably the reason why so many won't let it go is there is really nothing out to replace it, but this too, will CHANGE.   IMHO, "it's dead, Jim".  And most probably with TOR and/or STO, and with Smedley even using the word "sunset" in an interveiw, it will breath it's last breath, soon enough.

Originally posted by Fishermage

As long as you invest zero emotion, and zero passion, into it, it can be fun from time to time. Inest any heart, and expect it to be broken. Smed is NOT one of the good guys.

Not that he actually maliciously wants to hurt his customers -- no, in some ways, it's worse. He simply doesn't consider other people at all. Treat his game with the same level of emotion he treats us.

It's sad, though. I love getting INTO my games -- I throw whatever passion I can muster into anything i do. At least, that's my standard behavior with things I enjoy. If your gonna do something -- do it with everything you got.

Every time I log in, I have to consciously remember NOT to do that. It's hard to do for me, but I have  managed to do so.

It is the only way to guard against the Smedding of the game. It's a Smed game -- he is GONNA do it again.

"is GONNA do it again."    I'd be willing to bet money on it.

Originally posted by BadgerSmaker

Originally posted by Esquire1980

If if that is so, why push for more game-breaking CHANGES?

 

Hey Esquire, not heard from you in a while.

I assume you mean the Chapter 6 PvE difficulty fixes which you were upset about?

This is when all PvE in the game went from completely solable after the NGE broke PvE difficulty to requiring a group for high end stuff.

Overall I think it was a positive change, players have adapted, groups are easy to find and grouping is fun and rewarding.

Hey Badger.   Yeah, C6CD was what I was talking about along with GU-whatevers,

I can understand completely why you and other playing vets would want the difficulty back.  It's something that you lost at another game-breaking CHANGE,  However, at C6CD, most of the players that suffered the NGE were gone except for a few.  And those few were and are very vocal on the forums about what they want.  You can still see it everytime the subject comes up of 32 professions.

However, SOE just didn't go after the difficulty with C6CD.  They CHANGED the entire combat system yet again.  Agility, Precision, strenght, etc did not mean the same thing as before the patch.  It went instead to parry, parry, block, block, miss, miss in yet another attempt to "wow-ify" SWG.  They NEVER just do what they are asked, they completly CHANGE the game system to go along with it.

And with the majority of the NGE starter players, this CHANGE at C6CD was just as game-breaking as the original was for most of the people here and the population losses were consistant with the percentages that even happened at NGE.  Kauri was known as a ghost server before C6CD, after C6CD, it was known as a dead server (along with many, many others.)  This necessitated the free transfers that are happening today.

It is interesting to note that SOE Austin has pretty much reversed all the added difficulty they put in at C6CD, now.  With GU-whatever, they gave players more power, and a bunch more buffs, and with very few exceptions, you can solo pretty much everything that you could before their 3rd massive game CHANGE.  That surprised even me,  I can solo SK again.   And that really lends itself to the next question, will you, again, ask for another Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade?

1st question still stands tho,  so you do understand what these vets here are saying, then.   Nice.  After C6CD, I can too.

Originally posted by BadgerSmaker

Originally posted by JestorRodo

Sorry BS,  The game is totally unplayable for me ( and over 200k others). Now you keep on enjoying it as I applaud your ability to exist and thrive in what most feel is a totally unsatisfactory MMO gaming situation.

 

 

Force of habit I'm afraid, anytime I see anything that looks like a statement of a problem, I try to provide a solution.  Not sure what I can do for "Totally Unplayable" though.

I got the same feeling when I tried returning to Ultima Online about a year ago, just wasn't the same game I remembered.

So, you really understand what all these vets are saying, then?

If if that is so, why push for more game-breaking CHANGES?

Mindarc.

While I take frequent breaks from Entropia Universe (pesky Micro thing), it's always the same when I log back in with very minor exceptions.  And then, most of the exceptions are additions rather than NERFS.

Can't really comment on Customer Servics in EU.  Never actualy had to use them.