Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by MosesZD

Warhammer has gone from 100 to 2 servers.   They haven't pulled the plug.   Heck, they're even doing some kind expansion or development work (which IMO illustrates the Fallacy of Sunk Costs) on it in some hopes of making another go at it...

We've never really seen a game "come back" from the bottom before, but we have seen innumerable games cling to life for years.  It just goes to show how very little a working mmo needs (income) to survive indefinitely.  Look at those old classics (declared 'dead' years ago) that are working towards a second decade.

Gamer spectators talk only about millions of players or fail, all or nothing.  But that isn't how the real world of mmo producers works, never has been.

This.

-No company keeps a game going when it isn't making a profit..

-No company will shut a game down when  it's making profit.

I'v enever played UO, but there is obviously some one that is or else it would have been shut down by now. The final nail for TOR will be when the license is up for renewal and EA/bioware decides that it  isn't worth keeping.  Nothing more nothing less. 

 

 

Actually SOE kept EQmac going, and that does not make a profit. SWG was making a profit and it got shut down, otherwise they would have given 1-3 months notice for closure (instead of 6) if it was not making money. There was definately some conttract/dealing with SWG and SWTOR which made SWG get shut down regardless how well it was doing or was going to do. SWG having 6 months notice and gets shut down as SWTORs launches is just too coincindental

SOE can keep games going even if not making a profit as long as their other games are making enough money to support them.

Nothing makes sense where LA is concerned.

Actualy, as a long term player of SWG myself, the signs were all there.  The point of "SOE giving up on SWG" was after the failure of C6CD thru GU-Whatever and the hiring and removal of Lorin Jameison (Deadmeat) as the SWG producer.  DM came in with yet another NGE type plan to "save the game" only this time doing the deed in increments instead of 1 large patch.  His year long plan failed, just the same as CU and NGE did when the same exact design of CHANGES came into view.  Before C6CD, Smed annouced he had "over 100K" subs to SWG.  After C6CD and even after C7 and C8 (which were addition CHANGES and done well actualy) the playerbase was estimating 30K subs.  The problem was C6 that CHANGED everything yet again.  DM was "promoted" to get him out of there, the producer for the upcoming "Clone Wars" was brought in as nothing more than on the job training (which he gave us zombies) and when CW was ready, he was pulled and T2 took over and added producer responsibiltys onto his existing job.  (letting the contract run out without any more costs)

The decision to close SWG was made at the point of DM's pulling as producer.

On the MMORPG.com vet refuge forums, it was stated, back then (above) that LA was "forgiving" the 1 mil IP payments, per/yr, since the sub fall at C6CD.  When the time came to renew, they simply would not go with "forgivness" any longer and SOE basicly had no other choice in the matter anylonger.  LA, I'm sure thought they had a goldmine with TOR, and no longer needed SWG with all of it's problems around.

I have to /agree with some of the LA haters statements that if SWG was up today it would of been doing "better" as the TOR failure would of been the absolute best advertisment for SWG that ever was.  There are posters in this very thread that said they would of tried SWG after TOR.  But, Smed is now convinced that F2P is now the way to go and LA thought they had the ultimate cashcow with TOR so it was really never going to even get a chance of happening.  No meeting of the minds there at all.

I suppose it was pretty obvious until May 2011, but when the game came back online after the breach and with the free CTS along with the free 45 days, the populations quadrupled. May/June 2011 was the best time I had in SWG for a long time, and then they go pull the plug when it was reviving? To not give it one or two months after that, to see if people subbed or not, and give 4 months notice instead of 6, just seems dumb to me. They potentially lost out on loads of subs, and more than what they had in a while.

Now SWTOR is heading into the same end, and I doubt it will have 100k subs by the end of the year.

As for the Zombies, there seriously was no pronlem with that other than the thought, and another reason for the SWG haters to bash for SWG - 1)  Death Troopers was SW canon and 2) It waa in the corner of dathomir and out of the way and 3) It is not much difference to the Rakgouls in SWTOR. The Meat Lump theme park should have gotten the most complaints as that was not SW canon, that was an extended joke that came from the SWG forums.

You know, I actualy attribute that rise in subs ALL to T2.  The absolute BEST producer of SWG that the game EVER had.  He talked to the playerbase, he listened, he developed according to the wants of the playerbase, and the game and subs prospered.  Just look at the "secret" progects that he and Hjal were doing such as atmos flight.  Something that had been asked for since JTL.  And JUST 2 guys pulled it off.

I think the SOE devs/managers were just as taken by the announcement as you appearently were.  In fact, they pretty much said that SWG was doing better but they just couldn't understand why.  SOE Austin/San Diego NEVER figured out that if you gave people what they wanted they would have more subs/money.  They were more interested in how to CHANGE the game to make those WoW numbers.  T2 did figure it out tho and acted accordingly.  Little bit of a secret, from way back when, I actualy had convos with T2 about a CU classic server(s) and he was FULL on board with the idea, bugs or not, and tried to get it. In fact, he told me he could have it up in less than 60 days using the old servers, that were still in the rack (Kauri et al) and at hardly ANY cost at all, with just his 2 guy development team.  He got shot down via SOE San Diego.  SWG would of still been up if T2 had taken the reigns long before he did.  T2's problem was, and yours in all probability, was the decision had already been made, way back when.

TOR is just a mess, no other way to put it.  They gave me a free 7 days yesterday in fact, I guess for me to hit the transfer button before they did later on in the summer, so I patched up, loaded in, did the Blackhole dailys, and just logged off and went to STO.  They nerfed my Guardian DPS to no end, my sage as well via healing.  This is the same exact thing that ruined SWG, (NERFs and CHANGES) from some of the same developers in fact, and until BioWare gets rid of these old NGE devs/leads, the game just doesn't have a chance.  I call it the "Blixtev mentality".  "Your just gamers, you don't have a clue, you don't like what I'm CHANGING, you must have a tinfoil hat on".  So, like SWG and Blix, gamers just gathered up their toys, took their money with them, and went home.  As bad as the original NGE was in SWG, TOR is the "Ultimate NGE" design by some of the exact same people.  A recipe for disaster. 

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by MosesZD

Warhammer has gone from 100 to 2 servers.   They haven't pulled the plug.   Heck, they're even doing some kind expansion or development work (which IMO illustrates the Fallacy of Sunk Costs) on it in some hopes of making another go at it...

We've never really seen a game "come back" from the bottom before, but we have seen innumerable games cling to life for years.  It just goes to show how very little a working mmo needs (income) to survive indefinitely.  Look at those old classics (declared 'dead' years ago) that are working towards a second decade.

Gamer spectators talk only about millions of players or fail, all or nothing.  But that isn't how the real world of mmo producers works, never has been.

This.

-No company keeps a game going when it isn't making a profit..

-No company will shut a game down when  it's making profit.

I'v enever played UO, but there is obviously some one that is or else it would have been shut down by now. The final nail for TOR will be when the license is up for renewal and EA/bioware decides that it  isn't worth keeping.  Nothing more nothing less. 

 

 

Actually SOE kept EQmac going, and that does not make a profit. SWG was making a profit and it got shut down, otherwise they would have given 1-3 months notice for closure (instead of 6) if it was not making money. There was definately some conttract/dealing with SWG and SWTOR which made SWG get shut down regardless how well it was doing or was going to do. SWG having 6 months notice and gets shut down as SWTORs launches is just too coincindental

SOE can keep games going even if not making a profit as long as their other games are making enough money to support them.

Nothing makes sense where LA is concerned.

Actualy, as a long term player of SWG myself, the signs were all there.  The point of "SOE giving up on SWG" was after the failure of C6CD thru GU-Whatever and the hiring and removal of Lorin Jameison (Deadmeat) as the SWG producer.  DM came in with yet another NGE type plan to "save the game" only this time doing the deed in increments instead of 1 large patch.  His year long plan failed, just the same as CU and NGE did when the same exact design of CHANGES came into view.  Before C6CD, Smed annouced he had "over 100K" subs to SWG.  After C6CD and even after C7 and C8 (which were addition CHANGES and done well actualy) the playerbase was estimating 30K subs.  The problem was C6 that CHANGED everything yet again.  DM was "promoted" to get him out of there, the producer for the upcoming "Clone Wars" was brought in as nothing more than on the job training (which he gave us zombies) and when CW was ready, he was pulled and T2 took over and added producer responsibiltys onto his existing job.  (letting the contract run out without any more costs)

The decision to close SWG was made at the point of DM's pulling as producer.

On the MMORPG.com vet refuge forums, it was stated, back then (above) that LA was "forgiving" the 1 mil IP payments, per/yr, since the sub fall at C6CD.  When the time came to renew, they simply would not go with "forgivness" any longer and SOE basicly had no other choice in the matter anylonger.  LA, I'm sure thought they had a goldmine with TOR, and no longer needed SWG with all of it's problems around.

I have to /agree with some of the LA haters statements that if SWG was up today it would of been doing "better" as the TOR failure would of been the absolute best advertisment for SWG that ever was.  There are posters in this very thread that said they would of tried SWG after TOR.  But, Smed is now convinced that F2P is now the way to go and LA thought they had the ultimate cashcow with TOR so it was really never going to even get a chance of happening.  No meeting of the minds there at all.

I cked "other".

Personaly, I'm betting on an NGE on this playerbase as well.  Dickerson, et al did it before when he/they was in crises management mode and I'd be willing to bet that he'll do it again.  Probably somewhere near that 500K sub mark that EA made the statement of, scared to death that he'll be out the door the same as the other 150-200 that already weren't allowed to pass security when subs droped to that "magic" number.

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Kothoses

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

So how many subs do you think SWTOR has TODAY?

 Subscribers? Probably more than players. The big question is how many paying subscribers they'll have next month (exit the 6 month plans + free month who are no longer interested in paying to keep on playing). Of course, you can expect to see a lot of numbers from EA, but don't hold your breath for this one.

I think it's a safe bet that it will be WAY below 1.3M unless they're going to be creative again and activate all accounts with a free month and call them all 'active subscriptions' again.

If they release actual sub numbers, I'd expect them to be closer to 300K than to 1.3M.

Except if you read the investor call transcript they clearly state "These numbers were prior to the legacy promotion" meaning none of the 1.3 million were on their "Free" month (source EA investor Call transcript from EA.com).

 

Essentially what that means is that most of those 1.3 million would still have had active subs at the time of 1.3 launching and will have had chance to check out the server moves and group finder (which really really should have been in at launch).   Now maybe this will steady there numbers and the game will find its base line or maybe it will go up or down.  But as has been mentioned many times, Xfire is one of the WORST measuring metrics around.... even steam charts are more accurate (although not for this game lol)

 

 

Still, keep hatin'  :)

Are you claiming that they crammed 1.3 million people into 30 servers?

 

Soo... ~43k players per server?

 

How many servers do they actually have by the way? I don't know the details, but 43k per server sounds like a lot.

well according to my sources they crammed 122 servers into 18

26 Severs, it appears to me.  12 US, 11 Euro, 3 Asian.  All are still going down according to their "server status" sheet.  Have droped from Full/Very Heavy to Very Heavy/Heavy and even a few at Standard during prime times.

SWG had 26 servers pre-C6CD.  And the top figures sent out from SOE were 300K subs, altho that was a game that many players had multipal account in (wife and I had 9).  Not much need for multipal accounts in TOR.  SWG would of had a little over 11,500 subs per server back then.  TOR seems to cap at Full and start Qs somewhere around 4000. 

Originally posted by theniffrig

This post was made (by me) to discuss SWTOR going free to play up untill level 15. Several posts are trying to take this off topic with peoples opinions of why SWTOR isnt successful or comparing it to other games. Please try to just keep it on topic about the new f2p lvl15. Thanks!

As some1 who bought 2 $150.00 boxes that are now drawing a bunch of dust on a shelf, wife and I both unsubed about as soon as we got 1 toon each to 50 and found there was almost nothing to keep us playing,  I doubt that either one of us will be taking advantage of (a new game that is 6 months out of the starting gate) going partialy F2P.  Call it a free trial, or not.

In fact, without an NGE of sorts, a total re-design of the game, a fireing of the top developers associated with that mess, I doubt we'd take advantage of a complete F2P, either.  (Imagine that, a Star Wars game that I believe would benefit from a NGE, woulda never thunk it)

Originally posted by StoneRoses

Originally posted by Esquire1980

 

I looked at your signature and found we have played alot of the same past games.  All the same for me, except War, and then you proudly state your favorite is TOR and least favorite is NGE.  To be honest, and full well knowing that likeing something is purely an opinion held via an individual, I have no idea how you can say NGE was so bad and TOR is so great.

I played SWG in pre-CU, CU, NGE, and post NGE (after C6CD) and TOR seems to me to be the "perfect NGE", made by some of the exact same developers, in fact.  The game is totaly linear in nature and "WoWified" to beat the band.  You can't even skip dailys or skip a HM flashpoint.  You almost MUST go down the path they have laid out to even play this game due to difficulty and/or gearing at end game.  There is NO appearance customization, that was found in SWG, even back in the original NGE while we were all wearing "droped" clothing for the stats, much less with adept-strain's appearance tab.  There is no exploration of just about any sort due to the "paths" created to lead you from quest giver to questing NPCs, all quartered off via cliffs and/or invisible walls.  (this was a large complaint about the wookiee world expansion as well as Musti back in SWG).

Everything is nothing but combat or clicking on 5 things.  There are no quests that doesn't include this in some manner, shape, or form.  (pretty same exact thing as in WOW, but the worlds there are at least large enough to get off the beaten path sometimes).  The UI, the shear amount of specials, the "rested" XP, the talent system, the quest until end game and then gear grind, even the augments are nothing more than WoW glyths and jewels, the no housing (or really any other area to call your own is another complete rip off of WoW - and please don't say "ships" that you can do nothing with other than just being another loading screen you have to go thru to travel).  I even got most of the legacy perks of 1.2 and you can't even have a choice in where to place the droid, the mailbox, bank, etc.  They go where they put them and that's it.  The ship for my Guard and the ship for my sage was EXACTLY the same.  None of my houses in SWG were the same, even if 2 toons had a bunker, they were very different in appearance and functionality due to just being able to drop something anywhere.  Even in STO, I bought the TOS interiors to be a little different than EVERY other ship interior that everyone else had.

Character creation.  Basicly WoW again, enough said.  Cryptic did a better job of toon creation and they have some cut-scenes, etc to pre-program the variations in as well.

And finaly crafting?  How in the world do you get ANY enjoyment in the TOR crafting system?  It's basicly useless at endgame except for the band-aids they're trying to stick on now (with augments).  At least in WoW, there are some items that are a little better than drops for the gear grinds to have at least some player made economy.  For the life of me, I simply can not understand why any1 would tout TOR's crafting system as anymore more than a useless credit sink.  Everything that could be crafted, you can pretty much get better by just looking for drops or buying off of game stationed NPCs.

TOR seems like the "perfect NGE" to me.  What these former SOE devs really wanted to do all along to SWG when they CHANGED it.  They just couldn't quite get ALL the "Koster goodness" out of it (like Rubenfield said in his blog) but they were able to get every drop of the "goodness" out of TOR.  To be perfectly honest, I much rather play NGE, ANYDAY. 

Please enlighten me, as a former player of almost the same games.

 

Yes you're right! It lacks DEPTH compared to other MMOs.

 

But guess what? It's still an MMO!

I think your right, TOR is an MMO, a very poorly designed one, but an MMO just the same.  The fact that players can get on a server with many others almost makes it an MMO.  However, a MMORPG?  TOR is probably not as they pretty much removed all the RP factor and the living in a virtual world out if it in favor of linear story that abruptly ends at end-game, pretty much like a single player console game does.  This is why, I would imagine, that some people call TOR not even an MMO.

Because I played SWG for so long, I still look at the TOR forums about once per/week.  Hoping that BioWare will either get rid of these NGE devs, they will allow the other devs some creativity with design, or these guys will have an epiphany of where they went wrong and start to fix it.  When SWG closed, there were some posters over on the SOE forums that claimed that TOR would fall straight on it's face, it's failure would be the absolute best advertisment for interest in SWG that could ever be, and that SOE/SWG would benefit greatly in the process.  Sad to say that I pretty much believe they could of been correct in their assumption.  SOE may have indeed missed an opportunity here.  I've read posts over on the TOR forums that state, they'd never played SWG but the features that are discussed would of caused them to sub, if the game was still up.

For the poster that asked why so much TOR in this thread?  The OP originaly posted this thread in the TOR sub-forums and a MMORPG.com mod moved it over here.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by StoneRoses

Originally posted by starwarsnut

Originally posted by StoneRoses

Originally posted by TheCrow2k

SWTOR is not an MMO, its a single player game with limited co-op and pvp. Therefore it should not have any subscription at all. Buy to play might be their best bet going forward instead of F2P but I think they already alienated too many players and most would not come back for free anyway.

Limited Co-op?

 WTF you talking about! Flashpoints, Hardmodes, Worlds bosses, Operations. You are encourage to group during missions for better rewards.

 

Even before 1.3 you can do premade PvP, it was annoying but you can still make it work.

 

You guys are still making the same excuse!

 

This is all OPTIONAL!

 

The players make it a single player game!  It's no ones fault but yours for not wanting to participate.

 

Not sorry if you are getting beat by the "Antisocial Boss," for failing to communicate with others.

 

 

 

 

 

Its not an mmo jus b/c you have flashpoints and ops and all that i can easily go play lord of the rings games on ps3 that are basically the same thing that tor is atm. FFS they just now added lfg tool and custom ui LOL. Still no raid assist.

You may think its an mmo and it may feel that way to you but to me and the other guy who you responded to it doesnt maybe in 2 years it might but it feels like kotor 3 with multiplayer add on. Just b/c i can do flashpoints/ops heroics doesnt mean its an mmo.

This game will be an mmo when the worlds feel alive and theres a sunrise/sunset when theres actual REAL server forums not half @ss pos ones like they have. When i see open world pvp with 50vs50 and an engine thats able to handle it then id feel like im playing an mmo. Atm its just kotor 3 with add ons

 

The players dont make it a single player game bioware did and they openly admit they want people to make 200 alts that all end up with no end game. Why is it in other games they dont have to encourage people to group but on here there having to entice you and do things to make you group? Its b/c the way the game is made the worlds everything its made and developed as a single player game with multiplayer add ons

 

Amazing you really known how to sink that in!

 

Oh, wait let me guess you are a true artist expressing your own interpretation of an MMO.

 

Did you really just sit there make up your own version or definition of what a MMO is! Holy crap, I am suprised you didn't throw in a graph with your opinion.

 

 

MMO

A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet, and feature at least one persistent world. They are, however, not necessarily games played on personal computers. Most of the newer game consoles, including the PSP, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Nintendo DS, PS Vita and Wii can access the Internet and may therefore run MMO games. Additionally, mobile devices and smartphones based on such operating systems as Android, iOS and Windows Phone are seeing an increase in the number of MMO games available.

MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.

 

I dunno man, SWTOR sure sounds more like an MMO.

 

 

 I like how they always start with  "It's a single player game" and then dance over to "It's not an MMO" once that gets debunked. The truth is it's just not THEIR type of MMO. I grouped up in this game far more than I ever did in any other MMO. The game actually rewards you for grouping, which is why so many of us liked doing it.  Even the anti social types who are afraid to meet people and join guilds got their LFG tool in the last patch so there's no excuse for not socializing in this game.

I looked at your signature and found we have played alot of the same past games.  All the same for me, except War, and then you proudly state your favorite is TOR and least favorite is NGE.  To be honest, and full well knowing that likeing something is purely an opinion held via an individual, I have no idea how you can say NGE was so bad and TOR is so great.

I played SWG in pre-CU, CU, NGE, and post NGE (after C6CD) and TOR seems to me to be the "perfect NGE", made by some of the exact same developers, in fact.  The game is totaly linear in nature and "WoWified" to beat the band.  You can't even skip dailys or skip a HM flashpoint.  You almost MUST go down the path they have laid out to even play this game due to difficulty and/or gearing at end game.  There is NO appearance customization, that was found in SWG, even back in the original NGE while we were all wearing "droped" clothing for the stats, much less with adept-strain's appearance tab.  There is no exploration of just about any sort due to the "paths" created to lead you from quest giver to questing NPCs, all quartered off via cliffs and/or invisible walls.  (this was a large complaint about the wookiee world expansion as well as Musti back in SWG).

Everything is nothing but combat or clicking on 5 things.  There are no quests that doesn't include this in some manner, shape, or form.  (pretty same exact thing as in WOW, but the worlds there are at least large enough to get off the beaten path sometimes).  The UI, the shear amount of specials, the "rested" XP, the talent system, the quest until end game and then gear grind, even the augments are nothing more than WoW glyths and jewels, the no housing (or really any other area to call your own is another complete rip off of WoW - and please don't say "ships" that you can do nothing with other than just being another loading screen you have to go thru to travel).  I even got most of the legacy perks of 1.2 and you can't even have a choice in where to place the droid, the mailbox, bank, etc.  They go where they put them and that's it.  The ship for my Guard and the ship for my sage was EXACTLY the same.  None of my houses in SWG were the same, even if 2 toons had a bunker, they were very different in appearance and functionality due to just being able to drop something anywhere.  Even in STO, I bought the TOS interiors to be a little different than EVERY other ship interior that everyone else had.

Character creation.  Basicly WoW again, enough said.  Cryptic did a better job of toon creation and they have some cut-scenes, etc to pre-program the variations in as well.

And finaly crafting?  How in the world do you get ANY enjoyment in the TOR crafting system?  It's basicly useless at endgame except for the band-aids they're trying to stick on now (with augments).  At least in WoW, there are some items that are a little better than drops for the gear grinds to have at least some player made economy.  For the life of me, I simply can not understand why any1 would tout TOR's crafting system as anymore more than a useless credit sink.  Everything that could be crafted, you can pretty much get better by just looking for drops or buying off of game stationed NPCs.

TOR seems like the "perfect NGE" to me.  What these former SOE devs really wanted to do all along to SWG when they CHANGED it.  They just couldn't quite get ALL the "Koster goodness" out of it (like Rubenfield said in his blog) but they were able to get every drop of the "goodness" out of TOR.  To be perfectly honest, I much rather play NGE, ANYDAY. 

Please enlighten me, as a former player of almost the same games.

As pertaining to TOR, I doubt if they lowered the sub price to 2.99 per/mo I'd opt in.  15 per/mo is not that high a price.  Wife and I had 9 accounts, each at 14.99 per/mo over at SWG and the price was not a factor.  The entertainment value was/is.

Originally posted by noncley

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Very good read, OP.

However, I believe you missed one large point of just exactly why TOR tanked and, to be honest, I doubt if anyone would have picked it up unless you were a long term player of SWG.

BioWare, after LA went to them in Dec 05 (after SOE's Nov 15th NGE debackle), then went directly over to SOE's studio and hired a large amount of SOE's NGE devs.  They took on so many of these guys, instead of moving them all up to their existing studio, they created a new studio in Austin TX, where SOE's studio is.  These guys thought they already had a "winning plan" and that "marketing" just screwed up the NGE so bad that the entire CHANGE tanked in SWG.  (see Rubenfields' blog, in it he says "it wasn't the CHANGES themselves" but it was all marketing's fault).  So, armed with this "tried and true version" of making an MMO (basicly a WoW clone), they went off in that direction, again, to make the "perfect NGE", this time with marketing full well on board.  And BioWare's marketing did a great job.  The pre-launch hype of TOR was something I haven't seen in any other game, before nor after.  Marketing did their jobs well.  2.4 million boxes sold, rather incredible if you think about it.  I admit that I fell for it as well.  2 $150.00 boxes here, sitting on the shelf collecting dust with the wife and I, both unsubbed.

One would of thought that after the failures of the other WoW clones, while TOR was in development, a shift in design might have been ordered in TOR, but nope, these developers just knew they were right and no1 was going to tell them any differently.  (same as they acted, and still act, regarding the original NGE).  I've seen the same types of developer mindsets over in TOR that the playerbase battled for most of the 8 years of SWG.  But, after all, SOE Austin  ( I call it the "blixtev mentality) trained these guys, what else would anyone expect?

However, the fundamental concept design was just as lacking as the original NGE.  With all the WoW clones we've seen come and go, it never ceases to amaze me that developers still hold onto this concept.  With all the other problems the OP notes out, this made for the perfect storm basicly in MMO failure and massive playerbase bleed that hasn't been seen before nor after as well.  Rubenfield went on and on, in his blog, about a SWG 10K per month sub bleed (after CU, their 1st round of CHANGES).  The amount of sub bleed in TOR would of probably gave him a heart attack.

Sad to think, that if the current player estimates of TOR subs are correct, (even seen on these boards), that SWG was larger in playerbase, before CU/NGE, than TOR is today, much less the last massive CHANGE that pretty much killed SWG, C6CD.  From what I can see, the sub bleed in TOR still continues and it is pretty interesting to watch where this all will end up at.

Very nice - and very true - addition to the main argument. You *are* right. SWTOR *is* the NGE SWG the way SOE developers wanted it. After all, think how many ex-SOE and LA personalities actually worked on this project:

Gordon Walton

Rich Vogel

Julio Torres

Haydon Blackman

Gabe Amatangelo

Dallas Dickinson etc etc

I am sure there are plenty of others but these are senior developers, producers etc.

 

As in the last statement I made above, it will certainly be interesting as to where this all goes.  Expecialy with EA's statement of requireing 500K subs to even hit the break even mark.  Without knowing for certain, it certainly appears that TOR could be below that mark at the moment.  On the TOR forums there is a lady who has wrote a program and is trying to keep track of "concurent logins" and while she readily admits that this does not equate to subscriptions, you can kinda get a vague idea.  The last numbers I seen was around 36K for the 26 servers (lol, SWG had 26 servers as well, all the way past C6CD in fact) that every1 transfered to.  SWG top end was 300K, announced by SOE before the CHANGES, when those numbers were thought of as good for a MMO.  But that amounted to a little over 11,500 per/server for SWG.  According to the "full" numbers for TOR, it sure seems to be around 4000 for Q status.  Even in the last week, I have watched the server status label amounts go down, some to "very heavy", some to "heavy", and even a few of these remaining 26  to "standard" during prime time.

It would be interesting to be a fly upon the wall at BioWare now.  They have, I'd imagine, a rather LARGE IP payment that has to be made, same as SOE had with SWG, that is called out as the full reasoning for the SWG closure.  SOE chose rather than to be roped into this again to give up the ghost, take their toys, and go home.  The large question is here, is what will BioWare, and even moreso EA, do in this context?

The next big 64 dollar question is;  What will BioWare Austin do to try and "save their game" before EA/LA makes that decision and sends these devs packing like the rumored 150-200 BioWare devs/employees of late?  These same devs brought you the CU and NGE back in SWG in 2005, will they attempt it yet again?  Is it now their MO and expected?  How much of TOR will be redesigned on this existing playerbase?  Will the opposite of the original NGE take place?  Will existing jedi players log in to find a re-profession screen because the patch that gets pushed out takes jedi to an unlocked alpha?  (for all those that think this could never happen, it is the exact same developers that CHANGED it the other way around in SWG and in the process hit the delete key on 23 different classes/profs)  Just how far will they go this time around?  We already know if they're in crises management mode, they'll CHANGE a game to whatever they deem, da&# the topedoes - full speed ahead, the major malfuction here is..........,will they do it all over again?  Will it work any better this time around?  (Cryptic tried it with their F2P for STO, history repeated itself there as well)  OR/AND........, will EA and LA just pull the plug again?

The entire ordeal leaves a bad taste in my mouth, to be honest.  SOE with their CU/NGE/C6CD, BioWare with their "perfect NGE" could very well take the IP down with them or at least make it so NO other large studio will even try to take on the responsibility of the Star Wars IP again, ever.  As a almost 8 year former player of SWG, I would lament that happening.

Very good read, OP.

However, I believe you missed one large point of just exactly why TOR tanked and, to be honest, I doubt if anyone would have picked it up unless you were a long term player of SWG.

BioWare, after LA went to them in Dec 05 (after SOE's Nov 15th NGE debackle), then went directly over to SOE's studio and hired a large amount of SOE's NGE devs.  They took on so many of these guys, instead of moving them all up to their existing studio, they created a new studio in Austin TX, where SOE's studio is.  These guys thought they already had a "winning plan" and that "marketing" just screwed up the NGE so bad that the entire CHANGE tanked in SWG.  (see Rubenfields' blog, in it he says "it wasn't the CHANGES themselves" but it was all marketing's fault).  So, armed with this "tried and true version" of making an MMO (basicly a WoW clone), they went off in that direction, again, to make the "perfect NGE", this time with marketing full well on board.  And BioWare's marketing did a great job.  The pre-launch hype of TOR was something I haven't seen in any other game, before nor after.  Marketing did their jobs well.  2.4 million boxes sold, rather incredible if you think about it.  I admit that I fell for it as well.  2 $150.00 boxes here, sitting on the shelf collecting dust with the wife and I, both unsubbed.

One would of thought that after the failures of the other WoW clones, while TOR was in development, a shift in design might have been ordered in TOR, but nope, these developers just knew they were right and no1 was going to tell them any differently.  (same as they acted, and still act, regarding the original NGE).  I've seen the same types of developer mindsets over in TOR that the playerbase battled for most of the 8 years of SWG.  But, after all, SOE Austin  ( I call it the "blixtev mentality) trained these guys, what else would anyone expect?

However, the fundamental concept design was just as lacking as the original NGE.  With all the WoW clones we've seen come and go, it never ceases to amaze me that developers still hold onto this concept.  With all the other problems the OP notes out, this made for the perfect storm basicly in MMO failure and massive playerbase bleed that hasn't been seen before nor after as well.  Rubenfield went on and on, in his blog, about a SWG 10K per month sub bleed (after CU, their 1st round of CHANGES).  The amount of sub bleed in TOR would of probably gave him a heart attack.

Sad to think, that if the current player estimates of TOR subs are correct, (even seen on these boards), that SWG was larger in playerbase, before CU/NGE, than TOR is today, much less the last massive CHANGE that pretty much killed SWG, C6CD.  From what I can see, the sub bleed in TOR still continues and it is pretty interesting to watch where this all will end up at.

The plan, as I understand it;

Large open world set in the "old west" (spagetti western era) dealing with history there

Housing where you can add onto.  Start with a cabin and build your own estate/ranch.

Starting factions of "cowboys" and "Indians".

Skill box - all open skills.  Play as a store keeper, rancher (build your own ponderosa), law enforcement, theif, gambler, crafting simuliar to SWG where you can and will fail, gathering for resources

Ulocks of "alpha" profs.  A series of really.  For the criminal, start as a petty theif and skill up, unlock 3 or 4 "alphas until you get finaly to a Jesse James type character and train robber.The other side, deputy sherrif, sherrif, all the way up to US Marshal (Mat Dillon type)  being able to bounty hunt the gunslingers/theifs with even a posse of regular toons.  Gunslinger, about the same.  Paid Bounty hunter, same.  Other faction would have their own series of unlocks also up to a Cochese type of character (renegade).

Perma Death for the alphas.  You will be able to leave a will willing all your possesions to another character (so you lose nothing except the toon, basicly)  Deaths via perma-death will get a "headstone" in "boot-hill" with a player made epitaph.

Seems to be pretty planning at this point in time.  He's still trying to gather people to help him with the development but that's the basics he's trying for.  Pretty ambitious to be sure.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Kazara

Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw

Originally posted by Thunderous

SWG had healthy populations?  Come on...  That's just delusional.  Where were all these imaginary people you speak of?  I'm not comparing SWG to WoW, I'm comparing SWG to SWG.

In October of 2005 SWG was still viable and had packed servers.  By January of 2006, 3 short months later, SWG was an absolute ghost town and stayed one until the end.

True story.

Sorry SNG, but I went back to SWG on nearly every vet trial, and even at the VERY END (moreso at the end) even Starsider was dead.

Really, there's no need to spin it at this point friend, it was dead, it's closure proves it. Time for you to do what all of us Pre-CU vets have been told to do for many years... move on.

I completely agree. Free game time due to the $OE hack fiasco allowed some vet returns and player alternate accounts to be active AND the free character transfer service gave the illusion that SWG was doing better. While transfers to more populated servers allowed a couple of servers to hit medium or heavvy a couple of hours a night, Starsider still had the lion's share of players. Over all, SWG just did not have the paying player population to warrant the IP license renewal costs to keep going. End of story.

 

There is no illusion, as people were returning and actually moving to servers that had people, and Chilastra and Farstar were locked because of it, they were FULL along with Starsider, but before the free CTS they were both Light, and Flurry was close to being next. It would been illusion for a week or so, but not the entire 45 days.

Mass loads of people just do not play games they do not like. SWTOR is proof of this, even within its 30 days free time, people were not logging in and playing, as reached level 50 and saw no point playing any more.

Assuming it was due to the fact the game was dead, and the rise was an illusion, SOE would have at least waited 1-3 months more to see if people would have subbed at the end of the 45 days, and it still would have given 3 months notice for its closure, which is the expected time frame for notice of a closure. As they made the announcement before people had the chance to resub, and gave a whopping 6 months, then that means the game was being shut down regardless of population.

SWG would be picking back up now, if it was active, as SWTOR is just not delivering.

But the facts are, "it's dead Jim", it's not coming back, the game is shut down (for whatever conspericy you want to believe), and TOR is up.

(mod edit)

You have many choices for a sandbox game in the near future.  Dawntide, Secret World, and The Repopulation all look decent for upcoming MMORPGs.

It doesn't matter if SWG was full of free players or not pre-announcement.  It's still just as dead.  The servers are most probably whiped and all of the pixels that surrounded your toons (and mine) are now history.  There is no reason to hold on anylonger.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Gravez

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Gravez

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Gravez

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by Lost_Bothan

Originally posted by TUX426

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SWG was good enough if people just embraced the changes, and rolled with it, like they are doing with SWTOR. SWTOR and NGE are no different, other than those who were no longer playing SWG are now viewing SWTOR as a fresh new game. If people treated NGE as a fresh new game, and stayed with it, then it could have grown into something wonderful, but the huge drop in subs made LA ditch SWG and focus on SWTOR which ended up being a shell of a game of the NGE (SWTOR just has the looks, SWG had the content and lots of it and some will never be able to get into SWTOR due to way the game has been created therefore SWTOR will not last that long). Coinsidering what SOE were left to deal with, they did a great job, I doubt Bioware would have been able to keep it running for 6 years if they were left to deal with it - they are MMO noobs

The poll was not macro'd this site has too many restrictions in place to make that happen even if you wanted to. You can not just create loads of accounts as it is not allowed, and then if you do you have to be a regular user and post for a while to be able to vote / do much, but as soon as you do all your accounts get permanently banned. So that poll has more merit than anything else

SWG was good enough if people embraced the changes? Oh please, that simply is not the case at all. People would have "embraced the changes" if they had provided a good gaming experience. For most that was not the case. Moreover that kind of thinking lacks total validity when you consider that plenty of people tried the game without having ever experienced it pre NGE. They had no ulterior motives to dislike the game, nor did they have any preconception as to the mechanics, and yet the game failed to attract and maintain the number of players one would expect from such a massive IP.

 

That has nothing to do with bitter vets and nothing to do with "embracing changes", it does though have everything to do with the product not being good enough.

 

Again you are mentioning SWTOR even though it is as clear as day that the quality of SWTOR or any other game out there on the market has zero impact upon the quality or lack of, of SWG. Whether SWTRO is good or not, whether it retains subs or not, whether is lasts more than five minutes or not. Non of that matters when considering the pros and cons of SWG.

 

The pvp in SWG was a joke, from the perspective of the actual combat mechanics and buff system, through the server lag and loss issues to the fact that the factional warfare (which one would have thought should have been good in and SW game set in that era) was a complete and utter joke.

 

The pve consisted of grinding weak ass mobs and mini "heroics" many of which you could run through with 2-3 players (or solo on Mustafar).

 

In short perhaps the two most important aspects of an mmo, the pvp and pve, were crap in SWG.

 

It didn't even have being a sandbox to fall back on, it was just a big empty pit. No skill system, no territory attack and control, no resource control. Just massive ghost towns, awesome. Look at the complexities of EVE and UO, now look at SWG, oh dear.

 

All the game had was crafting and twitch space. The first was done well but then it is niche at the best of times, when it is taking place in an economy with zero looting, resource control and/or decay (i.e. a broken, hyper inflated economy) it is even more niche. Space was good, but niche, even within SWG.

 

The devs just added more and more loot grinds to keep the hardcore fanbois in the game, as though getting plant part 3/70 after over 9000 attempts so you could complete the collection and have a static object in a generic house covered over the fact that there was fuck all else of real gameplay interest to do.

 

Nevermind, yep the game was amazing, the only game that ever felt like an online world amirite (fingers in ears at the mention of UO). SOE did an amazing job, flawless really. PVP was super and highly competitve  and the PVE, man the PVE was awesome. There would have been at least 110 million subs by now if people just tried it with an open mind. It having a low pop and shutting down is all down to a few bitter vets and the coming of SWTOR , the bastards.

People just could not get over the changes and lost trust with SOE/LA there and then on Dec 15th 2011, and no matter how good the game was they were just not going to try it again, wasting more of their time, effort and money. When retrying it again on a free trial it was more or less the same, but even with the improvements, it was not the game they once played, but yet most of them now are getting into SWTOR.

Although even with SWTOR people are leaving it and not going to sub at the end of the 30 days, and there were no changes to add to the mass exodus.

As for the new people, I bet the majority of them just saw all the bad reviews and stayed away and not even tried it, but those that did probably kept thoughts of the bad reviews in their mind, and used it as an excuse not to get involved with the game.

Obviously some people are not going to like the NGE, like you it seems, and I did not like the change either as my Jedi I spent years on grinding professions and the going through the village, was as good as my Enteratianer I AFK'd after respeciing from Ent to a combat prof just before NGE hit, and then respecced to Jedi in NGE. It was all a waste of time, and I was angry as hell, but then over time I just looked at SWG as a new game, like it being SWTOR, and began to love it again.

I have played SWG for over 10000 hours since Oct 2005, and I have enjoyed every minute of it, and even subbing loads of accounts at one time none of it ever felt like a waste of money, even went subbed the most ever in Sep 2011 to get them all in at the end, costing me more than 2 SWTOR CEs. There were plenty others who enjoyed the game too, and di not find the game crap at all. It had its bugs but its features, content and systems far made up for it. It is the only MMO where the majority of people who got hooked on SWG, keep coming back to, as it never gets stale.

At the end of the day, SWG was picking back up after they put in the constant free cts, as beforehand there was only one full server. but by June there were 4 full servers. If they had made the annoucement about shutting the game down in Sep / Oct giving 2-3 months notice, and populations dropped after the free 45 days then I would pretty much agree with you, and would not be here praising SWG, but unfortuantely the shutdown announcement came when the game was on a high, and the future looked bright, and people were really having fun in the game for the first time for years, and I was the most happiest with the game since 2003. Also if SWTOR had more or better or as good as the systems, even if totally different, than in SWG or any other MMO, then I may have accepted SWGs closure better, but unfortuantely SWTOR has far less features than other MMOs, let alone SWG. Bioware knows it, and James lOhlen is on the case!

You just can't seem to get it through your head that if the game was good people would have been playing it. All the excuses mean jack shit. It may have been the greatest game ever to you and a few thousand people who played it, but to anyone else it was complete garbage.

You can not seem to get it through your head, that people were playing, and when the shutdown announcement came the server populations were RISING.

If SWG was active now, it may have taken a hit when SWTOR launched, but now people are ditching SWTOR they would have seeked out SWG. There are quite a few threads on the official forums my OTHER people, missing SWG, and even saying that SWG was overall better

Appearently, not enough.  Thru all the years of SWG we really still have no idea what exactly the IP payments to LA actualy were.  We have no idea what the costs of maintianing the servers was.  We really have no idea how many real subs there were also at the end.  SOE did.  LA might of had a clue to some of these questions as well.

Fact of the matter is the game ended before the contract completion date for the IP between SOE and LA.  That would lead some1 who has set up contracts, such as this, that SOE might very well have asked for the contract to complete.  Your forgetting that SOE had just came thru the hack as well and was (and still is to a certain extent) restructuring all their financial aspects.  These people here are correct, if SWG was making money as some people claim it would still be there today.  For some reason, we do not know, it wasn't so it's not.  TOR is basicly a moot point and has no bearing on SWG at all.  It will live or die on it's own merits and on the decisions that Bioware makes going forth.

I was there when they did the 45 days for the hack as well.  Before the hack, I had canceled 3 of my 4 accounts as there was no reason to have that many accounts anylonger.  Most ALL of the people I knew had done the same on Bria.  Bria was DEAD.  I logged into my 1 remaining acocunt more out of nostalgia than anything else and then to just walk around my bunker or city and look at the houses of people I knew that had left the game full well knowing that the city was going to be out of time as well.

Sorry, but SWG is not coming back, EVER.  SOE doesn't want it and LA has already stated for the record that they want to do ALL future development in-house.  That leaves NO wiggle room at all.

Super, you and Hip and any1 else who wants some of what SWG had might take a look at Dawntide.  It has housing, citys, deco, creature taming, crafing that requires "stations" and you can fail at, large open worlds, sandbox, 35s of a sort, ship and world combat (this time on water instead of space), etc.  The only real difference is full PVP/full loot but I have a rather large thread over there now on this exact subject that their devs are looking at it and designing for as I've had pms from a developer trying to make this game into something that an SWG vet might like.  I played the open beta before they took it down for a complete world redesign and it is supposed to be back up by next month for the final period of testing before launch.  Come on over and help us "SWG vets" make Dawntide into something that we can recapture at least parts of SWG.  That's about as close as any of us are ever going to get and the more of us that are there pre-launch the more we will get into the design of Dawntide so we can all have a game again.

Put that gaming passion you have to work again.

Cosmo,

You should get with Starmond (remember him from old SWG).  He just pitched an idea for a Koster-esq game to Hero engine and they game him a package that included the engine, a project manager, and a deal for them to produce and retail his idea/game.

I can put you in touch with him if your interested.  You guys might be able to build it together.

Esq.

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Kazara

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Esquire1980

As the wife says, "It's dead, Jim" seeing that signature pic I copyed from these forums many years ago in fact.  It really doesn't matter anylonger, does it?  It's gone and it's not coming back.

I emailed LA saying that SWTOR is no where a good as SWG and would like it back, and they passed my feedback on to the relevant people. SWG can come back by popular demand, but if people think there is no hope and do not let LA know then it will not come back.

 

LOL! I don't think this will be happening ever. How well did the 'petition'  to save SWG work out after the closure announcement was made? How many even bothered to sign it?

$OE/LA  will not be bringing SWG back. it is gone - let it go.

It was the best MMO out there, and deserves to be brought back.

The petition did not work at the time because there was all hope on SWTOR, now it is not that great as expected they are now realising why people went all out to try and save it, and the peition was not a wasted effort.

Before Dec LA were ignoring me, but now in Jan when they are seeing the decline on SWTOR they are not and realising that SWG had more attraction than they thought.

Something is going to be done - either SWG is brought back or SWTOR changes to be more like it. Preferably SWG is brought back, and then leave SWTOR as it is, otherwise it will be like another NGE

i don't realistically think that very many would be interested in having SWG revived using the NGE format, and where there is no real demand there is unlikely to be any real action, even if they were willing to try, which is doubtful. The NGE was an unmitigated disaster that is so well documented i wonder why some refuse to see it for what it is, im sure SOE would rather ignore it ever happened, all things considered, even less of an incentive for them to rehash old mistakes. SWG's Pre CU version is probably the only version that would be likely to draw any attention anyway, and at this point, its debateable whether it would even be enough. Time to face facts im afraid, SWG that was is dead and buried, you can go visit the grave and throw flowers, but.. i don't think anyone is going to lend you a shovel.

/agree.

I actualy had a hour long tel-con with Lorin Jameson (Deadmeat) after the launch of C6CD.  He did tell me he brought CU up on their internal servers thinking about a "classic Server" and then said it was "so buggy" that it couldn't be saved, at least in his estimation.  DM did say, for some unstated reason, that Pre-CU was not an option and could never be brought back.  T2, several months before the closure announcement also took some of my posts and pms and "went to the board" with an idea of a "classic CU server" also and was shot down like a drone over Iraq.  SOE or LA, or both, had no interest in even trying at T2's point in time.

Super, I agree with you that even the final version of NGE was more playable than all the other AAA MMOs combined, but you really need to remember how it actualy was the last year.  Even on Bria it was hard to get a heroic group going, it was hard to get a group going for invasions, etc etc etc.  There was just not the players left.  They had migrated on.  I loged into SWG just to run around my city or walk thru my bunker that had 1400 items in it.  I no longer was playing my 4 crafters due to the fact that there was no reason, no sales.  If I did do something in game, it took me 1/2 hour to even get ready dual boxing so I could buff my jedi to kingdom come to be able to solo 99% of the in-game content.  It just wasn't actualy fun longer.  SWG was such a community oriented game that when the community wasn't, the game pretty much wasn't as well.

Wife, who played SWG since about 2006 is playing WoW after trying TOR and not making it thru the 30 days that came with the box.  So is 4 or 5 that was in my SWG guild.  (Really sad there as I just won't ever play WoW)  I mess around in STO, occasionly, as I have a lifetime and STO really had it's own version of an NGE in the last 2 months CHANGING the game for F2P.  Looking with a reserved apprehention for Secret World and actualy looking a bit forward to Dawntide to come back up for open beta this month or next month.  You guys should give it a look see.  It's not quite like SWG (as their plan was to make a game more like UO with the full PVP/full loot) but it has about 40 profs, skillboxes, housing, citys, deco in and outside the houses, crafting you can fail at, ground and water (instead of ground and space), just a lot of the old Koster systems that were included in both UO and SWG.   It's planed on being pretty resonable for costs also for launch.  Free downloads with somewhere around $90 for a lifetime or $12 a month sub.  Might be somewhere to go for all of us. 

I seroiusly doubt if SWG will ever have another chance at anything.  It just didn't have the draw while it was up, after CU and NGE and really evident after C6CD when the population fell to around 30K on 25 servers.  If it did, it would of never been shut down in the 1st place.  But good luck on the try.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

 

 

I still say that LA were involved with the way they wanted the NGE, as SWTOR is pretty much the same as the NGE, with 8 classes instead of 9, and a lot of stuff just cut out. SWTOR just seems like the NGE with enhanced version of the Legacy quests / Tansarri quests (which had attempted voice over) with the NGE - minus player housing and cities, dumbed down crafting, dumbed down space, no Beast Master type thing, no player created content system, less freedom of travel etc etc.

The NGE turned SWG into a WOW clone, but still managed to retain its sandbox elements. SWTOR is now that WOW clone they wanted all along, and has nothing to do with SOE. The only difference with the two is that Bioware had years to polish it, whereas SOE only had a few months and they could not want to shut the game down temporarily, and went for immediate action. If SWG switched to SWTOR as it is now, instead of NGE, even if Bioware took over from the NGE, people still would have quit. They knew people would have quit but thought people would return once gotten over the change. I remember a video of Julio Torres saying this, when expalaining the NGE in 2005. He is from LA, and actually involved with KOTOR and also Force Unleashed. Here is the video, and stating people will return at 2:00 to 2:45 in the video. It was on the G4 site in 2005, this user uploaded it to youtube later.

SO, basically I now see no differnce between Bioware and SOE, they have both given LA their WOW vision, except Bioware were given a lot more time to get it done, and also I would say if Bioware handled SWG they would have done NGE worse, as SOE are experienced MMO developers whereas Bioware are newbies, assuming SWG would have been their first MMO. You can see their MMO noobness with SWTOR, as it just does not feel like a MMO like, WOW, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, Aion, Rift, City of Heroes, basically all of them including SWG. SWTOR feels like a single player KOTOR/Mass Effect game with online multiplayer bolted on.

Rubenfield does state they were asked to re-imagine the game from the ground up.  If that directive came from LA or from SOE San Diego (Smed), he does not elaborate so we do not know the answer to that, period.  You can believe what you want to but the facts are simply not there at this point in time and may never fully be known.

You do not need facts you just need common sense.

All public comunication came from LA about NGE, on the forums, and if it was Smed behind it he would be the one taking the flak or praise for it in that G4 video instead of Julio Torres as he has been for the past 5 years, after LA abandoned all communications to the playerbase about SWG. If you were in Julio Torres position and Smed brought in the NGE causing an uproar, would you stand there and take it or let Smed do it and try and sell his NGE? I bet you would get Smed to do it.

Once the NGE failed, LA just stayed away and let SOE deal with it. SOE could not run away as they owned the site.

I also do not see SOE making the directive because Star Wars is not their IP. You do not mess with Star Wars or George Lucas will crush you! SOE just maintain and run it. Everything to it points to LA

Fairy wings is debateable whether is SOE or LA, and I doubt the Fedora and whip was SOEs idea but LA as that was a blatant rip off of Indiana Jones but the NGE is definately LA.

 

Sorry, but wrong again.  LA did not make all the communications about NGE.  Torres just made almost the same statements coming out of SOE which I would expect since this was a quasi-partnership and the statements should coinside.

Smed did take FULL responsibility for the NGE as SOE has stated it was all them and apoligised for it, even.

Anytime you put aside facts for "common sense" and assumptions you end up with a large problem.  It was well known that SOE made content and LA either yea-ed or nea-ed it.  "Fairy wings, Fedora and whips", or even flying ewoks with hearts on their chests.  All SOE Austin and Oked via LA. Altho fairy wings et al was about as bright in a SW game as zombies.

I'm not saying here that LA doesn't bear some brunt for the NGE, they do, they Oked it at the least.  They may indeed have placed a directive to "re-imagine" the game as Rubenfield reports, we just simply do not know that at this time and anything else is just an assumption based on nothing.

As the wife says, "It's dead, Jim" seeing that signature pic I copyed from these forums many years ago in fact.  It really doesn't matter anylonger, does it?  It's gone and it's not coming back.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

 

 

I still say that LA were involved with the way they wanted the NGE, as SWTOR is pretty much the same as the NGE, with 8 classes instead of 9, and a lot of stuff just cut out. SWTOR just seems like the NGE with enhanced version of the Legacy quests / Tansarri quests (which had attempted voice over) with the NGE - minus player housing and cities, dumbed down crafting, dumbed down space, no Beast Master type thing, no player created content system, less freedom of travel etc etc.

The NGE turned SWG into a WOW clone, but still managed to retain its sandbox elements. SWTOR is now that WOW clone they wanted all along, and has nothing to do with SOE. The only difference with the two is that Bioware had years to polish it, whereas SOE only had a few months and they could not want to shut the game down temporarily, and went for immediate action. If SWG switched to SWTOR as it is now, instead of NGE, even if Bioware took over from the NGE, people still would have quit. They knew people would have quit but thought people would return once gotten over the change. I remember a video of Julio Torres saying this, when expalaining the NGE in 2005. He is from LA, and actually involved with KOTOR and also Force Unleashed. Here is the video, and stating people will return at 2:00 to 2:45 in the video. It was on the G4 site in 2005, this user uploaded it to youtube later.

SO, basically I now see no differnce between Bioware and SOE, they have both given LA their WOW vision, except Bioware were given a lot more time to get it done, and also I would say if Bioware handled SWG they would have done NGE worse, as SOE are experienced MMO developers whereas Bioware are newbies, assuming SWG would have been their first MMO. You can see their MMO noobness with SWTOR, as it just does not feel like a MMO like, WOW, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, Aion, Rift, City of Heroes, basically all of them including SWG. SWTOR feels like a single player KOTOR/Mass Effect game with online multiplayer bolted on.

Rubenfield does state they were asked to re-imagine the game from the ground up.  If that directive came from LA or from SOE San Diego (Smed), he does not elaborate so we do not know the answer to that, period.  You can believe what you want to but the facts are simply not there at this point in time and may never fully be known.

You'll not find me taking up for TOR.  But, if you didn't know that TOR was going to be a WoW clone you again do not have all the facts.  Their lead dev was hired away from SOE as were many of the devs of that time.  Bioware took so many of these guys it opened a studio in the same town, Austin TX.  They continued with that even taking Adept-Strain well after the fact.  Dallas Dickerson, lead for TOR/Bioware, had his hands in the NGE up to his sholders so even looking at the Rubenfiled blog, NONE of these devs thought they did anything wrong with the CU, NGE, and even C6CD thru GU-Whatever.  They thought "the marketing failed" is why their CHANGES went down in MMO history as the exact what not to do with an MMO and fnaly killed what playerbase they had for each and every one of these CHANGES.  Bioware has a sucessful game made with KoToR so why wouldn't they try to recapture that sucess again with an MMO that bears even the same name and IP?  I never thought that TOR would be a sandbox and neither LA nor BW ever said that it was going to be.

Now, would LA take more control with their 2nd MMO?  Probably.  I doubt that Bioware would be able to get by an NGE past LA like SOE did before.  Interesting to note here that LA has stated that all of their IP games will now be made  in-house so probably all is not peaches and cream between LA and BW as well.

Originally posted by hipiap

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by ericlatrelle
Awww. I see Buffy_bites made his way to the MMORPG forums to spread more of his bs lol. This is going to be fun.

Buffy_bites where? He does not like these forums as too many people bash on SWG for his liking, and not much support.

If you think I am Buffty, then no. We are friend and just discuss and agree on the same things, and most of our so called "BS" as you put it is taken from what Tiars, 0nyx and other respectable SWG players have had to say, which all makes sense.

Now SWG is shut down I now have time to keep posting about SWG, wheres before last week I was too busy playing SWG to bother.

ericlatrelle is about 2 ounces short of a full pound..  Only slightly less amusing than JestorRodeo and Tux and Raiden.

 

Tiars and Onyx and a few of us other regulars have always been able to see the difference betwwen what the SW:G Dev's wanted to do and what LEC made SOE do to SW:G.

Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

Tiars and I have talked about this many a time as I was on the same server, I helped him ingame as he did people in my guild in space, he's been in my vent many a time, (and btw, I had an active account right up to the closure notice), and I seriouly doubt he'd be all that thrilled to have you use his name in this context.

You can try to blame former players for SWG's closure all you want to.  It's a free country.  But, in the end all/be all it was SOE that destroyed SWG and their poor attempts in recrafting the game post launch, not once, nor twice, but 3 times in the games 8 years.  People like Jestor were just reacting to a very bad business decision by SOE and TUX was a senator who got shafted.  I may have still been a sub to SOE but the truth is the truth.  I actualy found Jestor quite entertaining at times.

Those who are looking for the true "Koster" version of sandbox should take a look at Dawntide.  It's in "

open beta" but developers are listening and has most of the charistics of the old SWG.  Player housing, citys, skillbox, deco, crafting only rivaled by SWG, large open worlds, etc etc etc right on down the line.

For those that may be a little worried about the malware report in this thread, I linked this thread over on the Dawntide forums and a developer responded;

Quote

Hi Esquire, I’m glad you and the people you brought in are enjoying our beta so far. We certainly still have bugs (development beta!) and the game style isn’t for everyone. I saw someone in the thread you linked raised concerns about our site being (erroneously) flagged for malware – it actually has to do with our downloads page containing a link to the exe (and not just an archived version of the file) – nothing to actually worry about. We’re in the process of getting it cleared, but there is certainly nothing malicious about our site (except for all of the time this game can eat out of your day heh.) Of course, we want our users to feel safe, so hopefully this will be resolved as soon as possible.

End quote

Hope this lays the fears to rest.  Please remember, if you try this, it is a beta and they could have problems like this that will get fixed.