I would imagine the STO model will be more with what BioWare goes with.  1st, an NGE of sorts re-designing the game for F2P, complete with player NERFs to allow for "power items" brought in at a later date, in the store of course.  Next, fluff in their "store" with devs stating thats all it will be.  After it is found that no1 buys fluff, P2W comes out as a trial, then full force, then gambling with real money to get the P2W item, or not.  All the while saying that subs get the benefits but in reality they'll be heading to the "store" probably more often than the free players do as they're already invested.

Content comes more slowly.  Even more lay-offs.  Player NERFs and CHANGES are directed at making money for the Co. store.  PVP will go non-existant (a STO dev said they "could take out PVP and no1 would even notice").

But there will be alot more kids in general chat and much more "policing" of chat, names, etc will need to be done, however the funds just won't be there to get all that is needed.

Another great IP shot straight to hades.

One can only hope so..........

I actualy expect an NGE to happen to TOR and "to" (key word) all these guys who have held onto TOR with such fortitude.  If it's a conversion to F2P or just a large CHANGE to the existing game without F2P, I would expect that they'll try this 1st.  And it will be for the same reasoning as the 1st NGE, willing to sacrifice an existing playerbase to have a chance at some playerbase that may or may not ever show.  All with the same delusions of grandure and expecting millions of subscriptions to come running at their beckon call.

Dallas Dickerson et al did it before.  It is their MO and as they believe, their MMO to do with what-so-ever they will.  They followed their SOE Austin teachings very well so far, with the arrogance, "NERF-Wars", closed lips to the community, when they do talk never saying anything, and argueing with their customer base to the point of losing subs.   These old NGE devs will probably bring back more, or even ALL, of their previous mistakes before it's all said and done with. 

What is that "they" say?  "History repeats itself" and "there is nothing new under the sun".  This is where I'd place the bet upon.

Originally posted by kobie173

Originally posted by Xobdnas

They literally made a night to our day. Everything we hated about NGE times 10. A slap to our faces, they didn't even bother to try and get the 250k of us that loved SWG, they skipped us for the WOW crowd. This game is our arch rival, our villain. I tried it, it made me sick. The amount of wasted potential, disgusting corporate money grab.

People around here act like Bioware owes you something.

SWG was a failed game. Why would Bioware attempt to emulate it to draw in a small fanbase?

Turns out that BioWare might of had a little bit of a better result if they had of emulated and updated 1 of the many versions of SWG.

TOR's now down to 26 servers, same as SWG, and those seem to be droping rather quickly as well.  At least SWG maintained the 26 servers after NGE and until C6CD in some small fashion.  (Kauri sure wasn't large by any means in the NGE, but it certainly had enough to play the game as it was intended for the most part)  And, SWG was basicly 3-4 different games due to the many times they tried to CHANGE the game to draw in that elusive WoW crowd, costing basicly an existing sub-base on every occasion.

I have heard that SWG sold way over a mil+ boxes in it's lifetime.  It surely might have done them better to have chosen 1 of the versions and re-made that rather than a WoW clone with lightsabers (basicly "the perfect NGE").  Expecialy after all the other WoW clones failed to knock off WoW.  It was actualy rather easy to see this outcome if someone looked hard enough.

But your right, BioWare owed us nothing.  However, I would imagine that EA might now believe the NGE devs BioWare hired from SOE Austin, to plan the initial game might just not have had as great an idea as they thought they did.

Originally posted by sookster54

Pre-CU

CU

NGE

And SOE did it again after you left due to NGE as well.  Only this time they took a year long plan of CHANGES and add ons as they were convinced "it wasn't the changes", it was the way they'd done it.  Some of the add-ons were done quite well actualy (C7 and C8) as they didn't CHANGE anything existing and only added to.  But, the combat system was again completly CHANGED, stats were not the same nor did they do what they did yesterday, brought in the WoWified "Parry, parry, block, block, miss, miss" system, etc etc etc.

This was nicknamed C6CD, The Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade thru GU-Whatever where the classes were revamped yet again and LS Jedi was made nothing more than a PVE tank (not even designed for PVP- said via Blixtev).  C6CD took everything you did yesterday and made ev1 die trying it the next day.  This was Lorin Jameson's (Deadmeat) attempt at CHANGING the game enough to so-called save it.  SWG had 100K+ subs (announced via Smed) shortly before C6CD, and a few months after, the playerbase was estimating 30K.  About the same percentage of loss as NGE as well.

However, to be honest, I'd still much rather play the NGE than TOR, anyday.  As hard as SOE tried, they could NOT get rid of all the "Koster goodness" out if it but Dallas Dickerson et al got every bit of it out of TOR as it is nothing more than WoW (vanila) with lightsabers.  It would seem that the "perfect NGE" via TOR worked about as well as the original.

Originally posted by Meridion

Of course it will be around for a long time to come...

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes has been around for years now with less than a skeleton player base. Bandwidth and server maintenance are cheap, just reduce the staff for a game to a bunch of guys and even 500 subs are profitable. Let alone free to play, which yields even more revenue by selling a variety of "stuff" (hats, armor, dresses, mounts...)...

Nowadays, there are tons and tons of low quality, near-dead, ripoff games just floating about. Some douche WILL play it for sure.

So the question you really wanna ask is: As a grown-up, experienced and demanding gamer, do you want to keep playing THIS title or is it best to just switch teams...

The answer for SWTOR should be fairly easy...

M

The problem with this is the same problem that was with SWG.  It was estimated, at the time SOE announced the closure, that SWG subs were somewhere around the 30K mark, SOE had announced that the sub count was actualy going up, and they still shut it down.  It is the same exact SOE that you state as having Vanguard up and running with that skeleton crew that shut SWG down.

It was that reported 1 mil per/year that had to go to LA.  Even tho BioWare seemed a bit smarter and negoiated a 35% to LA, there still is a large cut off the top to LA that these other limping along games just do not have to pay.

However, it was the LA/SOE contract completion date that had to get close to shut SWG down (altho they did shut SWG down a little before the exact date) and I would imagine that whatever completion date is included will be just as important in the shut down of TOR as well.  So, I would believe the people that want this type of game still have a few years, anyway.

Originally posted by MadDemon64

Originally posted by tuppe99

What is even more sad, is that we thought that we finally had some competition for WoW. But no, the collector's edition of their next expansion is already the #1 bestseller at amazon:

 

http://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames/ref=pd_dp_ts_vg_1

Seems like there is just no stopping that juggernaught.

 

And here Bio had the most awesome IP in the world and they made an utter mess of it. Amost enough to make a grown man cry....

 

 

As much as I had hoped it would have been successful, it looks like SWTOR has succumbed to the Star Wars curse.

After the amazing episodes 4, 5, and 6, we got the abominable episodes 1, 2, and 3.

After SW: KoToR and its sequels, we get Sw: ToR.

It seems like no matter what good stuff comes out in the Star Wars franchise, it is ultimitely followed by Grade A Bantha manure.

The "curse" was and is, the same exact people that helped ruin SWG are the same exact people that helped ruin TOR, ALL by DESIGN.  The NGE Dev leads that developed the original SWG NGE, this TOR version of the perfect NGE, are now operating TOR the same as they operated the NGE with arrogance, all that secrecy, comments about "tin-foil hats, etc against whatever playerbase they have or have left.  These guys are the "curse" of both games.

This is going the same way as STO.  WoW clone in space, altho TOR has taken that concept to new heights, with fast leveling, on rails, highly instanced, dailys at end-game, very few raids, "hard-mode" or elite passed off as "new content", a fast add to the level cap etc etc etc.

STO was not helped until they got rid of the leads and replaced them with DStahl.  Altho by then, the dev team was cut so far, the buget was so low (they said that the average starbucks had a larger "team"), and there just wasn't all that much that could be done at that point in time in the way of re-makes for original design and engine flaws.

I remember the posts, like this one, over at STO and it pretty much was 1 of the large signs of the beginning of the end of P2P and the coming of F2P and P2W.  I wonder if EA will "sell" BioWare to some off shore concern as well?

Retail outlets will sure want to "dump" whatever stock they have before F2P and a no cost download becomes the norm.

The "while" to wait is the lowered development team and the forthcoming NGE to CHANGE a P2P game to F2P with the cash shop.  That's about all, it would seem, that a F2P TOR is waiting upon.  BioWare Devs aren't talking as I doubt the remaining playerbase will like what they have to say.

I would imagine the decision has already been made.

Originally posted by Thebigbopper

 Well what you say is better i bet would be hotly contested by some, i imagine there would be Eve,Rift etc etc but it's all personal taste. I bet there are relevant arguments about what they are missing or what they did wrong as well. I never Played STO or SWG and they may be better games...... I'll lay money down there will be people who would try to shoot you down in flames for saying those games are good .

 When you get people complaining about biased reviews and calling a game shitty then he is blaming them for having an opinion differant to his own.  He is entitled to have an opinion but what gives him the right to dictate what other people should feel? I think a lot of people liked SWTOR that left it, but they just felt after maxing there was not enough to keep them subbing...fair enough

 What ever anyone names here they are bound to get shot down or called out by someone who personally hates the game. What i do not get is why they attack people on their own game forums for liking the game. I bet i get a lot of emnity for posting what i have typed here. Yeah i like the game, some people actually do like it even if you do not...get over it.

 Just thought i should add. I play on the 1 of the 3 "Asian servers" they are actually Oceanic and in Australia. These servers are not dead and neither are the remaining servers of the U.S ones. The U.S ones during peak are sometimes full, very heavy or heavy quite often except off peak times. I will clarify that i am not saying the game has not lost a lot of numbers but after cutting servers the numbers on each server are healthy.

 

 

Oh, /agree with "better" is completly subjective.  There are many who "hate" on STO as well and I called out just some of the faults with STO in the above.  SWG had it's own "haters" mostly due to the CHANGES that SOE made to the game to try and "WoWify" the complexities of the original SWG gameplay.  They made 3 of these attempts, CU, NGE, and C6CD trying to draw those WoW players away.  All of these attempts have the same conclusion as the attempt at making a Star Wars WoW clone with TOR.  Depleating playerbase, very angry vocal "haters", and a reputation right up there with spoiled molded potato salad.

Could they "fix" TOR enough for me to come back?  Surely!  But, to be honest, it almost would require another NGE to do it and that would be as fair to the existing TOR playerbase as the original 1 was to SOE patrons altho in this case, they could tact on all the CHANGES that it would take to regain my sub.  I'm sitting here with 2 150.00 boxes as the wife and I both pre-ordered and got each other a large box for anniversary presents. 

BioWare made a very nice leveling system and then, it appears, just tried to tack on some end-game grinds and it really, really shows.  When asked the question of end-game before launch, they replied "re-roll".  They knew the problems, they simply chose to disregard them as they just knew they made the "perfect NGE".  Another point that really bothers me to no end is the specific developers that are associated with the project.  A bunch of these guys were hired from SOE Austin and they are directly responsible for the original NGE to SWG.  It seems they kept ALL their mindsets in the move and are operating TOR the exact same way they operated the NGE.  "It's great, ask us, we'll tell you, if you don't like what we done, you've got the perverbial tin-foil hat on, and we just won't talk to you anylonger".  This is beyond hubris, it's complete and utter arrogance.  However, it seems that the good Drs are now rectifing that problem and starting to let a few of these guys go.  There are some more in that lead dev dept. that this is needed as well.  New blood and creativity can only be a good thing for TOR.

You asked what was "better".  And even with ALL the problems associated with WoW, STO, and SWG, I can honestly state those are "better" IMHO.  I'm sure EVE players would have their own opinions and I would imagine you'll see that mentioned as well.  EVE, with only 26 origin servers left iN TOR, could very well be larger than TOR right now.  SWG had 26 servers also and the numbers released via SOE, in SWG's hayday, was 300,000 subs top.  So, I would imagine that TOR is somewhere around that mark with the same amount of servers, altho SWG had server capps well above the 4K mark that TORstatus has figured out.  BTW, even the TORstatus lady who is keeping track says she doesn't know whats going on with the drop in population to the asian pacific servers.  But, we shouldn't have long to wait till the EA investor calls go out and we should know for sure then.  If they now refuse to give numbers to their investors, you can be well assured that the number is dismal at best.

If you would like to try STO, look me up,  Oamore@Esquire and I can get you started, in a great "fleet" with older (over age 30 players), and it's F2P.

Originally posted by Thebigbopper

Originally posted by Kakkzooka

I'm just wondering when the major review sites will come out of the woodwork and actually write honest articles about how shitty the game really is and how poorly it's performed, instead of perpetually shoveling bullshit.

 

Probably when the bribe money runs out. That's my best guess.

 This game is a good game and tell me the game that is better? There is no MMORPG out at the moment that is better except WOW but i feel that was in the past.  Falling numbers or not i think it still is the second most populated game of it's type. GW2 will beat it but even then it is free to play so it should. 

 If population numbers tell a story then there is a hell of a lot of games with a worse problem.

 It definately dropped the ball and could have a lot more players now but, it still is competitive with any game thats listed on this website.

 C;mon all you SWTOR haters. what game is better?  What game had a flawless release with more content at its start and has had larger numbers play it? Rift would be the only one that is close i would feel. 

 

 

I'm more of a self described TOR-dissappoint-er instead of a "hater", but I believe I'd have to answer your question, personaly, with a question.  Do you want the entire list or just the top 10?  Accepting that "better" is an opinion that may CHANGE from person to person.

I left TOR to go back to STO, in fact.  Why?  "Better" space content, a boat-load more content at end-game, more and "better" PVP opportunities,  No specials I can not use in PVE or PVP, no 4 tool bars full of specials that I have to go entirely thru to find out which ones do basicly nothing and which ones to put in rotation as they actualy matter to the class, no CC fest PVP/PVE,  no having to have a seperate PVP stat/suit/load-out ( I use the same items in PVP as PVE), fully populated "worlds" (even tho it's F2P), major content dumps from developers (we just got fleet starbases and fleet shipyards of sorts), Qs that "pop" within 60 secs, and basicly a lot more "fun" and with as major an IP.

All this in spite of end-game gear grinds, F2P with a cash shop, highly instanced, the lagging Cryptic engine (not really much "better" than the hero engine), a past "NGE" for the F2P conversion, and all the other faults that go along with the game.

SWG was "better" and yes I'm still playing that as well.  Housing, deco, open worlds, unlocked alpha profession with penaltys, long term goals, 32 different profs, crafting system that is intricate and actualy matters at end game, no WoWified talent system, still have glo-bats, and last but not least "living" in the world instead of playing in theirs.

I even tried WoW as a few of our TOR guildies went back to WoW and talked me into trying it as being a 7+ year vet of SWG I guess i would of qualified as a "WoW hater" and got a pal to 63 before I really got bored of just questing.  What I found there was a game very highly polished, massive content, open worlds with exploration, story that I had to read instead of watch a movie on, very well balanced with PVE (the toon there felt more like the "hero" that TOR touted before launch than the guardian that has to beat on even trash mobs forever, a tank class that can actualy heal as well (what a novel concept - of all the things that Dallas Dickerson had to copy from WoW for his BioWare "perfect NGE", why not the paladin class?) before or after the guard DPS NERFs), and basicly very good for what it was.  It just seems that questing is not quite enough for my playstyle and individual tastes.

As for the other WoW clones you ask about, I wouldn't know.  I tend to stay away from WoW clones like the plague.  If your going to playstyle WoW, might as well play WoW.  It has more content, 8 years post launch, a larger dev team, more polish, more end game item grinds (if that's what your into), just works better, and generaly just "more and better" of everything.

As for launch(s).  It really does not matter if a game starts with 200+ servers (that's basicly due to pre-launch hype instead of actual gameplay) and then goes down in 6 months time to 23 servers (you really can't count the 3 asian servers anylonger as they seem to be mostly dead now and the other ones are no longer "full" or even "very heavy" anylonger).  The loss in playerbase seems to be directly attributable to actual gameplay (or the lack of it).

Hope this answers your questions.

Wouldn't surprise me at all.  It was a rumor, for awhile, of PWI buying Cryptic as well.

So far, that Cryptic buyout has came with mixed reviews and mixed results for the playerbase.  1st, there was a  F2P "NGE" of sorts, a raise in price for everything, a new currency in game that was just as dependant upon their CStore, then came gambling for lockbox items, long waits between content, Devs making their goodbyes on the forums/elsewhere, and now the move to Zen (PWI's virtual currency) along with merging of all Cryptic accounts over to PWI.

I could see it happening all over again.  Seemed to work for PWI.

Well, it would seem that there are some more TOR lead Devs that need to go besides who have already went............, if they want this game to continue.

What would be refreshing, is seeing a lead say something to the effect of, "OK, we seen the problems and we're going to fix it".  Instead of this article's impression of "we just need a bunch of non-MMO playing people to come join our mess cause they expect less", along with "We built the perfect NGE, we know it's great, just ask us, we'll tell you". 

Seen this so many times over at SOE, with some of the exact same people, it doesn't even phase me anylonger.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/17/swtor-executive-producer-leaves-bioware-new-layoffs-rumored/

Read down to the comment portion.  Auto (and a bunch of numbers) claims he works for BioWare and that he "heard in the halls" the reason for the closure of SWG.

Quote;

Also from what I have heard in the halls, Starwars Galaxies was shut down due to the fact are talks with LA,EA suits ecouraged the new guy at LA to increase the licensing fee at renewal time. it was a move to remove any direct competiton to TOR.

End quote

I have no idea if this is on the up and up, but maybe, SOE should make a call over to LA and find out if their IP fees have went way down in the last couple of months.

Originally posted by tryklon

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Originally posted by tryklon

Nice, TOR is slowly increasing, probably thanks to the comeback week and free trials and TERA is leaking...

It probably is a bit.  Free time has a habit of doing that.  We seen the same exact thing in SWG when they had the "free months".  Problem was/is, not many, if any, stayed and payed.

I'm sure log-ins increased during this week.  In fact, I tried it once myself.  Went and did the Blackhole dailys and found I had to beat on stuff even more with my Guardian due to the NERFs.  Loged out, haven't been back.  Playing STO.

Well, i cameback for the free week and resubbed for a month, to check it deeper. Either way now I can easily find groups in the group finder, even as a dps im waiting around 5 minutes to be called, which is substancially lower than warcraft also as a dps,  in which case I usually wait around 12 minutes. Im playing in The Progenitor EU and the population is thriving, every zone is always packed with people.

If the merges did this,. thanks Bioware. Let's see how much time ill keep subbed this time, I guess 1.4 will decide it, if it brings new and interesting content

I would imagine, by your Q time/test theroy, that then STO has to be the most sucessful game in current history.  I doubt I've ever been in a Q. in STO, for over 60 seconds.  They ALL pop that fast in STO.  However, that alone does not make it the "most sucessful game in history", far from it.  STO has a meriad of problems all it's own and the sub-base and going F2P outlines those very well and correctly I might add.

I doubt that TOR is in such bad shape as closure is being talked about now between BioWare and LA.  Unless, that 500K drop dead number was real that EA talked about pre-launch.  But, even if it was then, things have a habit of CHANGING when the feet get pressed to the fire and the hard decisions have to be made.  They've already talked about, pubicly, a F2P model, then retracted some of the statements made.  And last but not least, there's that pesky LA contract completion date that has to be contended with.  So, I would imagine TOR is very safe for now at least.  Even the mighty SOE had to wait for that contract completion date to roll around close to shut SWG down.

You know, the large test is a personal one.  If you enjoy TOR, by all means keep playing it.  If you do not, then you'll take your gametime and money elsewhere.  The threshold is probably different for everyone.

The 1 "good" thing that I hope comes out of TOR is finaly getting it thru developers/studios thick heads that WoW clones may not just be the way to go for insured financial sucess.  Not a 1 of them was a WoW killer and none even came close.  Most failed at even the attempt.  Maybe now, we can get to some actual creativity back in the industry.   And we, the players, can have some actual choice other than how a MMO is skinned again.  That would be a win/win for every1. 

Originally posted by tryklon

Nice, TOR is slowly increasing, probably thanks to the comeback week and free trials and TERA is leaking...

It probably is a bit.  Free time has a habit of doing that.  We seen the same exact thing in SWG when they had the "free months".  Problem was/is, not many, if any, stayed and payed.

I'm sure log-ins increased during this week.  In fact, I tried it once myself.  Went and did the Blackhole dailys and found I had to beat on stuff even more with my Guardian due to the NERFs.  Loged out, haven't been back.  Playing STO.

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by noncley

Next heads on the chopping block: Daniel Erickson and Gabe Amatanegelo.

...Meanwhile, in another part of Austin, a portly, sandy-haired man, his face lined with years of failure and depression, quietly picks up another modest bonus cheque and waddles out of the office to his mid-range American car and his dinner for one alone at a local Applebees. As he pulls out of the mostly empty carlot, John Smedley, CEO of SOE, 'The Man They Couldn't Fire' smiles weakly to himself.

In July CFO

Add Ohlen to that list, he should go with the others, he's part of the problems SWTOR has.

Along with Ohlen, add the NGE devs BioWare hired from SOE Austin in early 2006.  Dickerson comes to mind right off the bat.

Really, that's about the only way to make this into anything salvagable.  They have got to get rid of the egos, who think they're right and every1 else has "tinfoil hats" on.  That will pretty much take all of these set in their ways lead developers/producers out of the equation.

With some new blood, some new/old ideas, they just might have 1/2 a chance of turning it all around, but the good Drs. will have to do it rather fast before EA, or worse yet, LA does it for them.  Anything else will be maintenance mode circa 2012 until the end of the LA contract, most probably.

It possibly could for me, but it would take a boat-load of work to get it there.  Maybe even an end-game NGE of sorts.

Social classes, designated crafter classes that make ALL end game gear, housing with complete deco possibiltys, JTL type space game, open worlds, open world PVP, engine upgrades out the wazzoo, take those 4 tool bars of specials that only work in PVP or only work in PVE and condense them down to where it's all managable and make everything work everywhere,  Add class heals to EVERY class (no more poorly done WoW Warriors), etc etc etc.  Give me something to do besides only WoWified raids at end game.  (I don't mind the raids but as all there is they just get old fast and then once your done, your done, = unsub)

Basicly a SW world I can live in rather than a SW game that is completly theirs, and you just rent to play in.  Doubt that's going to happen before Elder Scrolls.

What a complete and utter waist of potential.  Leveling is really done well except for some of the utterly stupid difficulty on some class quest bosses/Voss et al, and the never ending NERF cycle.  There is just NOTHING after leveling and BioWare Devs knew it going in.  "Re-roll", they said.

Originally posted by Aredyl

Originally posted by snikwad

Originally posted by Rockhide

Originally posted by MadDemon64

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Fennris

To the people calling SWTOR a financial failure/flop:  where are you getting your numbers from?

The game isn't as successful as 1 or 2 other MMOs, yes, and it doesn't do what many players on forums like these seem to "need".  But those factors do not a "flop" make, right?

It's been generally viewed as a poor investment. Is that enough fail for you?

When you take the most expensive MMO 'ever' to make, and roughly break even, that is not a success. On any lvl.

Actually, it does.  If it manages to cover the costs of production, then it is a success.  If it more than covers the cost of production, it is an even better success.  If it does not cover the costs of production, then it is not a success.

Since you have admitted that SWTOR sold enough copies to cover the costs of production, then you have admitted that the game is a success.  It is not as successful as WoW, but since more money was not spent in creating SWTOR than was recovered through sales, then it was successful.

Economics 101.

 

If you're going to throw "Economics 101" in somebody's face then you would do well to mention both the relevant underlying assumption of microeconomic theory -- that firms are profit-maximizing entiities -- as well as the fundamental concept of opportunity cost: the value of everything forgone by choosing to produce option A instead of devoting those resources to produce a better (or next-best) option B. 

 

In Econ 101 the real "cost of production," the very term you use, includes opportunity cost.  Relevant chapter of an econ textbook:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/10324747/7-How-Firms-Make-Decisions-Profit-Maximization

 

 

For comparison, $60 * 3 games * 3 million (conservatively) copies sold = $540 million in gross revenue generated by three hypothetical single-player RPGs that could have been made with the resources spent on TOR.  With those same resources TOR has generated approximately $60 * 3 million copies + $15/month subscription * 7 months * average number of subscribers (let's say a million) = $285 million in gross revenue.  Special edition sales will roughly be balanced out by sale prices in the months after release for both options. 

 

Just to be fair, your $60 figure is off.  Retailers sell the game(s) for $60 they make X% mark up when THEY sell it to the end user for $60.00. I have no idea what the profit margins are for the retailers but clealry they make enough to warrant selling them. 

Yes, retailers do make a % off of each game.  We could adjust the numbers for both games - estimating 10% for each game.  

 ($60 - (10% of $60)) * 3 games * 1 million per game = $162 million

($60 - (10% of $60)) * 3 million copies + $15/month subscription * 5 months (removing the free 30 days for both the boxed copy and the one given out around april) * 900k mil avg subs = $213.3 mil

Two different changes to this: 

1.) I changed both formulas to reflect 3 million games sold.

2.) I changed the number of months subs have been paying.

3.) I changed the number of avg subs to reflect the "free month" times that took place during higher numbers.

I could guess more numbers out of my rear to reflect the average cost per month on a sub (purchased at a store where the retailer gets a cut, multi month plans, etc). 

I could speculate costs associated with maintaining the servers, staff employed to handle questions and problems with the additional billing and problems associated with games, and the additional beancounters to handle the monthly subs directly.

 

So back to Econ 101 for everybody:  we are guessing possible revenue based on sales and subs, but revenue does not equal profit.   So, unless someone can provide semi-accurate numbers on production costs for large-scale games along with maintenance costs on servers capable of hosting such a large MMO, the picture won't be complete enough to make an educated guess on which could be profitable.

Your probably a bit off with your numbers still.  I own a manufactuing buisiness and our best selling product is sold to wholesalers, for 2.83 (or less depending upon quantity ordered) who resale for 4.00-4.25.  The product then goes to contractors who mark up the product again about another 20%-25%+.  The consumer ends up paying around 5.31 or more time it all is said and done with.

Your 10% is a bit low in the equation dept.  The standard retail markups I see every day are more like 75% to 100%.  I would guess that a 60.00 box nets EA somewhere around the 30.00-35.00 mark.  And it was disclosed that TOR sold 2.4 million boxes, 1.7 subs at launch, 1.3 subs at the 4 month mark, and now with only 26 servers, (the same exact amount that SWG had), probably the best guesstimate is SWG's 300K subs at it's heyday.

Originally posted by mmoguy43

Originally posted by Rockhide

Originally posted by mmoguy43

Originally posted by observer

You guys are terrible.  It's ok to dislike the decisions of their game designs, but to make jokes, or outright personal attacks, about their personal lives is going too far.

As far as swtor goes, i feel it's too late to turn around, unless it had a major overhaul, which wouldn't even worth the trouble.

 

For real, everyone here that can't help themselves but to casually attack and wish more people to loose their job gets a -1 and block. It really is pathetic.

 

So you believe people on a message board should be held accountable for what they say, but when it comes to their work people should absolutely not be held accountable for their performance.  

You can mince the words however you want, but that is EXACTLY what you're done here.

If that's what you think I'm saying...

People(devs) should be accountable for their work as well but I don't think anyone here know exactly what they do or have done and so they have no reason to justify removing others.

But apparently if I, as a gameplay designer, were to mess up with balancing a class at some point every gamer has a right to demand I loose my job.

Maybe not "demand that I loose my job" but..........., the market will do that for them anyway.

It is no MMO secret that NERFs and CHANGES to existing systems that players grew acustomed to cost subscriptions.  It's happened since UO and just about every game since.  And when there is so much discontent that the sub count heads for the dumper and the company bottom line is affected, and/or a CEO has to make excuses to their investors, most companys will CHANGE the way they do things and/or people who are making these decisions.  Well............., maybe not SOE, but most.

I had about the same experience.  Logged onto my Guardian, had to reset my WoWified "talents", went and did the Blackhole dailys, found I had to beat on the NPCs even longer, logged off, and went back to STO.  Haven't went back.