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All Posts by Esquire1980

All Posts by Esquire1980

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299 posts found
I believe I hold Rubenfield in higher regard.   Dallas Dickerson next?
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Esquire1980

Here's hoping this is a wake-up call for the entire MMORPG industry.  I tried CoX several years back (free trial) and I didn't make it thru that trial for the exact same reasoning as I left TOR.  The gameplay.

F2P can not save a game that is lacking in the basic game.  ONLY post launch development and changing directions in development can do that.  No studio can keep up in a themepark model with players unsatiable want/need for more and more content.  There has to be something else there that keeps a playerbase while waiting for that more and more content or development swings in direction.

TOR simply does not have any of that and no amount of added instances (more of basicly the same as it has now),  that will take development "6 weeks" (yeah right) and players a few days to burn thru, will fix that problem.  They can even add difiiiculty to no end in their instances and it will become moot as most of the playerbase will just find it impossible and stop even trying more quickly than if they could burn thru it. (put it on farm) Then there's that pesky little deal of feeling your being nickle and dimed to death, everytime you turn around, that tends to come in a F2P game and most certainly leads to P2W.  You simply do not end up feeling as invested in a F2P game as a sub based game due to nothing more than these facts.

Did  you start at coh release or much later?  The game has a lot of content.

It wasn't content I was pointing out above.  It is the design of gameplay, itself.  WoW has massive content and it wasn't my game either and I just tried that for the 1st real time a couple of months ago.  Got a pal up to 60-something before I just couldn't handle nothing but questing anymore.

I think it was either after NGE (Nov 2005) or shortly after C6CD (around May 2007/8) that I tried CoH.  It just wasn't my game.  No housing, crafting was simple compared to SWG, drop economy, all questing, in fact CoH was 1 of the 1st MMOs I got the feeling of I'm playing their game, their way, and not mine.  Admitedly, I didn't see much of it as I didn't make it thru the free trial period before uninstaling.

TOR has exactly that same feeling (for me anyway) along with the added feeling of "I've seen that game before, oh yeah, it's WoW with lightsabers".

Here's hoping this is a wake-up call for the entire MMORPG industry.  I tried CoX several years back (free trial) and I didn't make it thru that trial for the exact same reasoning as I left TOR.  The gameplay.

F2P can not save a game that is lacking in the basic game.  ONLY post launch development and changing directions in development can do that.  No studio can keep up in a themepark model with players unsatiable want/need for more and more content.  There has to be something else there that keeps a playerbase while waiting for that more and more content or development swings in direction.

TOR simply does not have any of that and no amount of added instances (more of basicly the same as it has now),  that will take development "6 weeks" (yeah right) and players a few days to burn thru, will fix that problem.  They can even add difiiiculty to no end in their instances and it will become moot as most of the playerbase will just find it impossible and stop even trying more quickly than if they could burn thru it. (put it on farm) Then there's that pesky little deal of feeling your being nickle and dimed to death, everytime you turn around, that tends to come in a F2P game and most certainly leads to P2W.  You simply do not end up feeling as invested in a F2P game as a sub based game due to nothing more than these facts.

Nothing but spin and uncertainty from what I can gather from it.

BioWare becomes the "new Cryptic" without even Cryptic's admissions and talking to the playerbase.  The community involvement portion and developer arogance still comes directly from SOE's school of the NGE.

SW:TOR - Prof positive it is posible to screw up a sure thing.

Wonder if BioWare, again, will hire another ex SOE Austin employee.  This time, the guy that was in charge of The Card Game (TCG).  That ought to fit very well with the leftover NGE devs.
Originally posted by IG-88

I seriously cant understand why all the hate surfaces from PRE-CU players when SWG is mentioned.

Personally, i loved the game as it was in the end with all its enormous contents and diversity.

For really, the same exact reasoning that TOR is now getting all the hate as well.  To a lesser extent, CU, and then a large extent with NGE and C6CD SOE tried to remake SWG into a WoW clone.  Some of the exact same NGE developers that were hired by SOE Austin took jobs with BioWare Austin and then went off to make the ultimate WoW clone and the "perfect NGE", uhhhh, TOR.  The same exact MMORPG failure occured only larger this time as TOR had more hype and had more box-buying playerbase to lose.  History repeated itself only in a larger context this time.

I played SWG in all it's incarnations as well and I would believe your correct, SWG post NGE and C6CD was a better game, IMHO, than TOR.  The problem is/was, it was much better in previous states and that is what your seeing here mentioned via past players.

Dan Rubenfield, if your still reading things like this, you can see now that "it was the CHANGES" and not just the way the CHANGES were done.  If anyone wants to play WoW and the features it offers, they will play WoW and not a knock-off.

Originally posted by NaughtyP

I don't think they have enough staff right now or even the proper game engine (gutted version of HeroEngine) to do anything like that... plus it wouldn't fit the game at all (think NGE).

Smedley must be having a good laugh right now though!

I'd imagine Smed couldn't be more overjoyed.  I believe that after all of it is said and done, CU, NGE, and C6CD will not even be remembered in the comparables with how or the speed in which TOR crashed and burned.  EA and LA, by jacking up the contract IP rates for SWG, made their 1st mistake right there.  I've read many a post on the TOR forums (and here to be honest) of people saying they never played SWG but would of now due to their interest in Star Wars, TOR's failures, and the features discussed via old players.

I doubt even Smed would want anything more to do with LA so I really don't forsee a SWG or an SWG II making any come-backs.  However, SOE does own the engine (that SWG was built upon built via Koster et al), Smed already made a comment about "sandbox not being dead" at SWG's closure, and I'm sure even SOE has noted the interest in a SWG type sandbox comments all over the internet.  And Smedly is not 1 to walk away from money or hype.  We'll have to wait and see what SOE announces post launch of Planet Side II as I would expect that's the closest we'll hear of anything like this.

Maybe not SWG, but a updated version, re-skinned to SOE's own IP that they do not have to share profits upon.  I wouldn't put it past SOE to rub that in the face of EA and/or LA and to be honest, I wouldn't blame them, and I would probably buy the game and sub to it. 

Best advise that I an give SOE is........,  install T2 as the Producer and Hjal as Lead Developer.

Were you interested in this game before it came out? Why? Why not?: 

Bought not only 1 but 2 of the $150 boxes, (wife and I).  Wife played SWG for 4 years, I played for 8.

Do you currently play this game?:

No.


If yes, please explain why:

If no, please explain why:

Way to linear.  This is the devs game, not mine  No customization (my ship and toon looked exactly the same as everyone else).  Every thing is on rails.  From questing on this world to questing on that world to end game content (level quests to dailys to this HM flashpoint to that HM flashpoint to this OP to that OP to this HM).  No real reason for PVP.  The engine could not keep up with the game.  A complete and utter "clone of WoW" only not as much of it and didn't work as well.  My entire guild left, rather quickly I might add.  There was no "world" to live in, you played in TOR not "lived in the world" like SWG.

What MMOs are you currently playing and why do you play these particular titles?:

STO.  Even with all it faults (and there are many) there is still more freedom, better engine (and that's certainly saying something as I'm no fan of the Cryptic engine), and better gameplay over there v. SW:TOR.

What compels you to post in this particular subforum as frequently (or infrequently) as you do?

Interested if this finaly puts an end to the "WoW clones" via AAA developers so that gaming cos. can get back to at least a bit of creativity. 

Originally posted by mastersomrat
FYI,  Since they came out with a free trial, I thought I'd give them a try.  I've only played for a few days now so don't know much about the game yet.  What I do know is that folks made it out that this game was dead.  They have at least 30 servers and 70% are locked because of load.  The servers I was able to choose from (about 10) where mainly heavy.  This information from 08/18/2012 1600hrs.  Just thought anyone thinking about trying it out and was on-the-line do to pop should know.

There are 26 servers which are not locked, and that's it.  3 of them are now going dead.  The other "70%" (as you say) are locked due to the fact they transfered the remaining small server playerbases off those via "free transfers" and last they said, those "70%" servers are to be closed sometime this summer.

If you only had 10 servers to chose from then that is all the servers they plan on running in your area.  2 months ago, those 10 servers were pretty much all full and all had Qs to even get into them.  The fact that you find they are all now "heavy" shows the subscription bleed and loss of playerbase continues.

If you had been on 1 of those "70%" servers before the transfers, you would indeed be saying that TOR was "dead" as most of those servers, the only people you could find you could almost count on 1 hand.

At this point, the actual sub count doesn't really matter anylonger.  With dropping down to 26 servers, EA calling it a "miss", and F2P announced, the number is certainly not what EA/BioWare expected.  In the recent call, they said over 500K but under 1 mil.  EA has full knowledge of all the recurring subs and how many of those that have canceled and waiting on their time to run out.  I have heard that magical 500K drop-dead number used again in an interview here recently so I would imagine that we can assume they have reached under that drop-dead number or they know they are heading in that direction.

What amazes me is that they were given boat-loads of good feedback on what was actualy wrong with their game.  By people who continue to sub and a very long thread, on their forums, of people who listed the top 5 reasons why they were leaving.  Instead of trying to "fix" their game, they chose F2P, and leave the game as-is.  6 weeks also for a "full team" to just do 1 PVP instanced map, or an instanced flashpoint, or even an Ops with 4 bosses? 

It takes about 6 months to develope the F2P model they have posted about?  Basicly, the game stays as-is, some restrictions are developed into it, add a store and some items to sell, and it takes 6 months to just do that?  I seen more development and consistancy in new content from SWG's 2 remaining developers in it's last 2 years.  These guys at BioWare seem to not be able to do anything fast except watch a playerbase bleed down to nothing.

EA got it right, TOR was indeed a "miss".  By internal initial design from the NGE devs, ongoing design criteria, communication from developers to it's playerbase, and the speed in which they can actualy do anything.

SWG was designed to make high subs of it's day. You have to remember, when SWG came out EQ was king with about 500K subs. SWG reached about 350K and was the 2nd highest MMO of it's day....... Then, the dark days came with the 3 WoWified re-makes that even Smedley says now that "they tried to make it too much like their competion". Then WoW launched and the entire MMO industry was tossed on it's head via sub numbers (and it still continues as of this day). Ever since then it's became WoW clone after WoW clone. All of them went the way of TOR while WoW continues. Why play a clone when the original is out there, works better, and has much more of everything. This is what developers need to learn. No1 will de-throne WoW until there is some kind of creativity regained in MMOs.
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by Esquire1980

No thank you.  I understand what your getting at by wanting the large non-instanced worlds of SWG in TOR but TOR has some basic WoWified MMORPG mechanics that I wouldn't have wanted in SWG, period.

Pets were great for creature handler and/or beastmaster, but a jedi being held to having a heal pet out was simply bad design in my book.  I, personaly, did not like playing a WoW Warrior in a jedi suit which is basicly what a guardian is.  The entire time in TOR I missed my 10K heal and even started feeling animosity at trash mobs when I seen them heal and I couldn't.

A DPS /Tanking class like the guardian isn't suppose to have great heals. Of course playing a jedi in TOR was more difficult because your 10 k heal, snare breaker and vansihing act wasn't there to bail you out like it was in  the NGE.  In this game you could specialize in one, but not all three, which is as it should be. 

Another problem I had was 4 tool bars of almost worthless specials.  Some that didn't work in PVP/PVE.  In SWG I believe my jedi had about 7 specials that were in standard rotation and that was plenty to keep track of.  PVP in SWG was not "CC Wars" and no1 was stunned to death with only 1 snare break on a long cool down.  Buffs in SWG were mostly for a lot longer period of time.  The meditate 3 minute buff was only 3 minutes, for quite a while, and T2 had to "fix" that so people would even bother to use it.  He CHANGED it to 30 minutes.  TOR had most buffs for a very short period with again long cool-downs.

The stunning did get very annoying. They went way overboard with that crap. They need to put those on much longer cooldowns because a well organized  group of smugglers is pretty much impossible to beat in warzones. However I don't want them to go the route of SWG where it became buff wars and long drawn out fights. 

 

 

Who said a DPS/tank can't have heals?  Certainly not SWG that lasted non-F2P for 8+ years, even after SOE shooting itself in the foot 3 times with re-designs.  The 2.4 million that bought the TOR box and no longer subscribe to the game?  The "WoW mold"?  Even WoW let players have a choice to this with either the pick of a Warrior or a Pally.  And I've seen many a post on these forums et al, that state the Warrior can be a decent tank but they can't hold a candle to a good pally.  Would be interesting to find out just how many people play a Warrior and how many people play a Pal.  I know in my short time in WoW, I seen many a Pal but just a very few Warrior class running around.  No1 said that DPS/tanks can't have a heal except TOR developers and now, you. 

Dallas Dickerson and the rest of the NGE devs, with all it's copying of WoW failed to copy some of the better things about WoW which was even a bit of choice in even a staunch themepark game.  They were looking at having too much developer control of classes and that just went with the rest of the TOR design, basicly no choice, rails on everything, "do it our way or not at all".  It would seem the mainstay of their already sold (they bought the expensive box) playerbase took the "not at all" choice.

They made mistake after mistake, (/same as these same guys did in SOE's NGE) from their original design (WoW from 2005) to thinking "story and the 4th piller" would carry them thru.  They made a decent leveling experience but chose to go with just that and that alone.  And it hit them right in the "we're leveled, what do we do now?" context.

They can "fix" CC Wars but it will almost require a CU/C6CD of sorts to do it.  They can "fix" their version of the WoW Warrior as well but the same will be required.  Will the TOR version of CU/C6CD alienate their remaining playerbase will be the 64 dollar question, and/or do they have even the development manpower, the EA funds, or even the front office willingness to complete the "fixes" required?  Or will they go the STO F2P route?  Little improvments to the game as a whole but constant adds to the C-Store.  We will have to wait and see.  Should be at least interesting as the TOR saga as been so far to watch.

No thank you.  I understand what your getting at by wanting the large non-instanced worlds of SWG in TOR but TOR has some basic WoWified MMORPG mechanics that I wouldn't have wanted in SWG, period.

Pets were great for creature handler and/or beastmaster, but a jedi being held to having a heal pet out was simply bad design in my book.  I, personaly, did not like playing a WoW Warrior in a jedi suit which is basicly what a guardian is.  The entire time in TOR I missed my 10K heal and even started feeling animosity at trash mobs when I seen them heal and I couldn't.

Another problem I had was 4 tool bars of almost worthless specials.  Some that didn't work in PVP/PVE.  In SWG I believe my jedi had about 7 specials that were in standard rotation and that was plenty to keep track of.  PVP in SWG was not "CC Wars" and no1 was stunned to death with only 1 snare break on a long cool down.  Buffs in SWG were mostly for a lot longer period of time.  The meditate 3 minute buff was only 3 minutes, for quite a while, and T2 had to "fix" that so people would even bother to use it.  He CHANGED it to 30 minutes.  TOR had most buffs for a very short period with again long cool-downs.

Main problem for me in TOR was simply too much WoW on everything, and really, not even as good as WoW as I actualy tried WoW after TOR.  It was basicly the same game altho balance was done better, there was much more of everything, and everything actualy worked.

There is much more wrong with TOR in basic design (over SWG) than just the worlds, altho I /agree with your premise of the small themepark worlds on rails.

Originally posted by Methos12

Main reason for their failure is actually identical - they both wanted WoW's audience. While TOR was designed to achieve that goal from the get-go and failed due to incompetence and lack of vision, SWG was screwed over by the intentional design choice to make a 180 and give the middle finger to its loyal player base. It's sad.

I would imagine that these ideas came from the exact same developers.  The NGE devs were hired fast via BioWare from SOE Austin.  They came over with the exact same ideas, to make a WoW clone, only the WoW clone they designed came from early 2006.  While Bliz continued to improve it's experience, these guys lived in their design cave, worked from a "WoW clone design" based off what they had from SOE's attempt at the NGE.

The NGE developers continued with their arrogance, their knowledge of they were exactly right and the players were all messed up, marketing failed or in this case the "it's the playerbase" fault (it couldn't be theirs), and went out to make the "prefect NGE".  That's what they attempted and that's what they got.  Not only did the "perfect NGE" end up the exact same as the original with a playerbase that did not appreaciate the attempt, left, and more importantly stopped playing and paying, they repeated the same mistakes post development via closed lips, disregarding the playerbase wishes, refuseal the CHANGE the game into something that might sell, NERF after NERF, closed threads they didn't like, and continued in the exact same manner right on down the line.

Once an NGE dev, always an NGE dev it would seem.  History repeats itself....., again.

Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by Vorch

 

 

However, if you mean profitability, then no, SWTOR still remains profitable and will most likely be even more profitable as time goes on given its change to Freemium.

It certainly is not getting profitable at the moment. They say they need 500k subs to break even, and by now (within the next month at the latest) the subs will be below that, so now they are losing money on SWTOR now. They are doing F2P in hope to stop the loss

I seriously doubt that 500K+ number that was released.  They have 26 servers with any population at all.  Same as SWG (as you might remember before the mess at C6CD and server closures) .  Before C6CD, Smed released he had 100K+ subs, at max SWG was reported to have 300K - 350K subs.  That put at least 11K subs on each of their SWG 26 servers and it would seem that TOR servers (according to TORstatus) is capped at or around 4K concurrent log-ons at any 1 time.  It would seem that hardly any of the TOR servers hit full and Qs anylonger also.

Maybe that TOR number released was including all the 6 month subs that no longer play nor log on anymore as well.  However, EA knows the actual numbers for players that have not canceled, waiting their time out, and that is probably the entire reason for F2P "coming soon (tm)".  They already know they are under 500K subs and therefore under the number that "makes TOR slightly profitable" according to the pre-release talk.

Originally posted by Methos12
Originally posted by Greyhooff

It's good that they got fired along with other incompetent developers at EAware.

They deserve to never work in the industry again.

And neither does Jeff Hickman.

Don't get me started on Hickman and his work on Warhammer Online, being the executive producer on the game. Paul Barnett I can understand, he was a PR man and did a brilliant job in that regard, but Jeff Hickman gets it for sheer incompetence. Then he moved to Bioware. How very fitting.

Add to the War failure developers, the SWG NGE failure developers (Dallas Dickerson et al), put them both together and you end up with a recipe for massive MMORPG disaster that can only be shown by........., well........., uhhh.............., TOR.

TOR's original intended playerbase was exactly what BioWare/EA got at launch.  Look at it, 2.4 million boxes sold, some at 150 each (1 got 2 of them).  Incredible hype machine/marketing.  In my memory at least, I have no recall of any game launching anywhere near those numbers.  BioWare did a great job, pre-launch.

However, the game just didn't live up to the hype/marketing spin.  Leveling was done well with little extras such as cut scenes.  And those cut scenes were and are just a "little extra" as gameplay is the main reason most any of us play a game, for the long term anyway.  I had some inclination that TOR had problems when a BW dev was asked the question of end game and he said "re-roll" before launch.  I don't care if it takes 200 hours or 2000 hours to get to end game, eventualy it will be reached and BioWare's plan was to have us re-roll and do it all over again with just a few class quests to make the experience any different from the last one.  While I have seen people that are "alt-crazy" most MMO players are not and want to play their "main".  Their basic game design gates this part of gameplay for the most part with "dailys" and OPs that go on cool-downs so when your done with these, log off and wait till the next day.  That was and is a mistake in design. and their failure to retain subscriptions shows this to no end.

So their "target playerbase" has now CHANGED.

These particuliar lead developers are the old "NGE" devs.  When they have a playerbase that doesn't appreciate what they have done or not enough that do, they will re-design the game to appeal to a playerbase they do not have, and even have no idea if it even exists or not.   ALL at the cost of the playerbase they do have.  Such was the original concept behind SWG's NGE that even "Smed" knows full well was a mistake now, but these guys didn't stick around SOE Austin long enough to figure this one out.  They only know what their limited experience with NGE taught them before BioWare hired these guys in early 2006 (NGE was Nov 15, 2005).  And that was to arrogantly believe that if players don't like what they've done, they're not worthy of said development and they'll leave it as "marketing's" job to go find this playerbase that loves them.  This re-design, for TOR, is now F2P and will impact the existing playerbase to no end.  I seen it 1st hand in STO.  The people that are invested and like the game will be the ones that the store is targeted at in the end all/be all.  You'll end up paying a sub and then spending money, sometimes big money, in addition to your 15 per/month.  They all start out with "It will only be fluff, subs will get it all for free, and NO P2W" but when it is shown these F2P players just won't part with their wallets, the other becomes the hard target.  These games require money to change hands and if the F2Pers won't part with it, the sub players end up footing the bill as they already open their wallets, "so let's see how far we can push them". 

If the ones that like and sub to the game don't pay?  I'm sure EA will have no problem pulling the plug.  And remember here. EA is talking at least $7,500,000 dollars per month (500K @ 15) for even the break even point so this will not be another STO, or any of the other F2P games that exist on 100K, or less, people (F2P and P2P) in their game.

It was reported, here in fact, on these forums of how much LA gets.  Looks like back in 09.  I've seen another link that goes to a business site as well with the same number only google didn't bring that 1 up.  May be old also.

http://www.morpg.com/mobile/forums.cfm?ismb=1&threadId=334547

Originally posted by skamper

OP here and the recent blizzard quarterly results enforces my theory even more. Blizzard lost 1.1mil subs because of the lack of content and quality of content in the game. If SWTOR does nothing to improve on the content, yet focuses on grabbing new players soley (just like WoW) and not retaining them, it can not sustain itself. How can EA/BioWare not realize this? Is it a lack of funding thing to rehire developers to polish and add content?

 

Also, John Smedley of SOE (yes the same Smedley that ruined SWG) was on Reddit earlier doing an AMA and basically confessed to screwing up SWG and making it too much like the competition. He said the realize their mistakes. They want to make more games initially free to play (like Planetside 2).

 

I think it sums up to this and all developers need to realizes this from the indie to the AAA devs. You must balance bringing in new players AND retaining your old players. If there's an inbalance between those, you will FAIL.

And Smed doesn't quite "get it" either, to be honest.  I actualy believe he figured it out about CHANGING an existing game on a playerbase as T2 and Hjal showed him the way to operate a game with an existing playerbase.  And believe it or not, SWG was actualy gaining some subs due to that.  SOE San Diego couldn't quite figure out why but T2 sure did.

However, Smed is big on F2P now.  Personaly, I still believe that 15 per/mo sub fee is very miniscule amount to pay for a game that people actualy want to play.  Even 15 per/mo, per account with only 2 toons on a server each, is within the limits for some.  Wife and I had 9 accounts to SWG between the 2 of us for quite some time.  The problem comes when there is no creativity in development, everything is a "clone of WoW"  (put that in there for the MMORPG.com mod that writes blogs), the game has no end game, no social quality what-so-ever, no player dependancys/player interactions of any sort, crafting is 2nd rate to the "rare drop" and is basicly another vendor (hand in this, get that), all gameplay is set on rails, PVP has a stat that gates players from even trying that form of gameplay, 4 toolbars of worthless specials except for CC Wars, and just about every other reason that people have already posted of the complete and utter failure of TOR to retain subs.

The deal, in a nutshell is, they are simply not making F2P for the people that left.  BioWare and their NGE Devs expect ANOTHER playerbase to show up, all at the cost of the existing playerbase yet again.

The free player sent 7 day trials were not for people that tried the game once before as if they did it once before your invite didn't work.  The F2P until level 15 was not for the any1 that had the box, subed, and left as I actualy tried it on both the launcher (says this account does not have a subscription) and then tried it by logging into the account section of the forums and that told me that my account was not eligable for the promotion.  They already knew what we thought were the problems with TOR, they knew we are not willing to give them money for the privilage of playing, BioWare is either unwilling or unable to re-make their game into what we want, so they have basicly wrote us off as a "dead player".

Just like the original NGE, they are not making their CHANGES for the existing playerbase or the playerbase they had.  They are making these for the same unspecified playerbase they HOPE to show as with the original NGE, all at the cost of the existing playerbase yet again.  Easy to see really, just look at the TOR forums about all the cancelations of the existing P2P players over F2P.  And like SOE's NGE, they couldn't care less.  They are after another playerbase that will accept their "greatness", be glad about it, and are more than willing to just fork over their hard earned money for the privilage.

This may not be removing 23 different professions and a total combat system CHANGE, but.........., IT IS THE SAME EXACT UNDERLYING CONCEPT as the original NGE.  Their arrogance is the same, we couldn't see their fantastic development so we're simply not worthy of it, it's all the players fault as it surely couldn't be theirs, the game is "great"....., ask us - we'll tell you, and they are now (again) going after yet another playerbase that will.

Once an NGE developer, always an NGE developer, it would seem.  Dallas Dickerson et al has struck again.  And TOR will not "get better" until and unless each and every one of these lead devs are thrown out on their cans.

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