Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Kazara

Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw

Originally posted by Thunderous

SWG had healthy populations?  Come on...  That's just delusional.  Where were all these imaginary people you speak of?  I'm not comparing SWG to WoW, I'm comparing SWG to SWG.

In October of 2005 SWG was still viable and had packed servers.  By January of 2006, 3 short months later, SWG was an absolute ghost town and stayed one until the end.

True story.

Sorry SNG, but I went back to SWG on nearly every vet trial, and even at the VERY END (moreso at the end) even Starsider was dead.

Really, there's no need to spin it at this point friend, it was dead, it's closure proves it. Time for you to do what all of us Pre-CU vets have been told to do for many years... move on.

I completely agree. Free game time due to the $OE hack fiasco allowed some vet returns and player alternate accounts to be active AND the free character transfer service gave the illusion that SWG was doing better. While transfers to more populated servers allowed a couple of servers to hit medium or heavvy a couple of hours a night, Starsider still had the lion's share of players. Over all, SWG just did not have the paying player population to warrant the IP license renewal costs to keep going. End of story.

 

There is no illusion, as people were returning and actually moving to servers that had people, and Chilastra and Farstar were locked because of it, they were FULL along with Starsider, but before the free CTS they were both Light, and Flurry was close to being next. It would been illusion for a week or so, but not the entire 45 days.

Mass loads of people just do not play games they do not like. SWTOR is proof of this, even within its 30 days free time, people were not logging in and playing, as reached level 50 and saw no point playing any more.

Assuming it was due to the fact the game was dead, and the rise was an illusion, SOE would have at least waited 1-3 months more to see if people would have subbed at the end of the 45 days, and it still would have given 3 months notice for its closure, which is the expected time frame for notice of a closure. As they made the announcement before people had the chance to resub, and gave a whopping 6 months, then that means the game was being shut down regardless of population.

SWG would be picking back up now, if it was active, as SWTOR is just not delivering.

But the facts are, "it's dead Jim", it's not coming back, the game is shut down (for whatever conspericy you want to believe), and TOR is up.

(mod edit)

You have many choices for a sandbox game in the near future.  Dawntide, Secret World, and The Repopulation all look decent for upcoming MMORPGs.

It doesn't matter if SWG was full of free players or not pre-announcement.  It's still just as dead.  The servers are most probably whiped and all of the pixels that surrounded your toons (and mine) are now history.  There is no reason to hold on anylonger.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Gravez

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Gravez

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Gravez

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by Lost_Bothan

Originally posted by TUX426

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SWG was good enough if people just embraced the changes, and rolled with it, like they are doing with SWTOR. SWTOR and NGE are no different, other than those who were no longer playing SWG are now viewing SWTOR as a fresh new game. If people treated NGE as a fresh new game, and stayed with it, then it could have grown into something wonderful, but the huge drop in subs made LA ditch SWG and focus on SWTOR which ended up being a shell of a game of the NGE (SWTOR just has the looks, SWG had the content and lots of it and some will never be able to get into SWTOR due to way the game has been created therefore SWTOR will not last that long). Coinsidering what SOE were left to deal with, they did a great job, I doubt Bioware would have been able to keep it running for 6 years if they were left to deal with it - they are MMO noobs

The poll was not macro'd this site has too many restrictions in place to make that happen even if you wanted to. You can not just create loads of accounts as it is not allowed, and then if you do you have to be a regular user and post for a while to be able to vote / do much, but as soon as you do all your accounts get permanently banned. So that poll has more merit than anything else

SWG was good enough if people embraced the changes? Oh please, that simply is not the case at all. People would have "embraced the changes" if they had provided a good gaming experience. For most that was not the case. Moreover that kind of thinking lacks total validity when you consider that plenty of people tried the game without having ever experienced it pre NGE. They had no ulterior motives to dislike the game, nor did they have any preconception as to the mechanics, and yet the game failed to attract and maintain the number of players one would expect from such a massive IP.

 

That has nothing to do with bitter vets and nothing to do with "embracing changes", it does though have everything to do with the product not being good enough.

 

Again you are mentioning SWTOR even though it is as clear as day that the quality of SWTOR or any other game out there on the market has zero impact upon the quality or lack of, of SWG. Whether SWTRO is good or not, whether it retains subs or not, whether is lasts more than five minutes or not. Non of that matters when considering the pros and cons of SWG.

 

The pvp in SWG was a joke, from the perspective of the actual combat mechanics and buff system, through the server lag and loss issues to the fact that the factional warfare (which one would have thought should have been good in and SW game set in that era) was a complete and utter joke.

 

The pve consisted of grinding weak ass mobs and mini "heroics" many of which you could run through with 2-3 players (or solo on Mustafar).

 

In short perhaps the two most important aspects of an mmo, the pvp and pve, were crap in SWG.

 

It didn't even have being a sandbox to fall back on, it was just a big empty pit. No skill system, no territory attack and control, no resource control. Just massive ghost towns, awesome. Look at the complexities of EVE and UO, now look at SWG, oh dear.

 

All the game had was crafting and twitch space. The first was done well but then it is niche at the best of times, when it is taking place in an economy with zero looting, resource control and/or decay (i.e. a broken, hyper inflated economy) it is even more niche. Space was good, but niche, even within SWG.

 

The devs just added more and more loot grinds to keep the hardcore fanbois in the game, as though getting plant part 3/70 after over 9000 attempts so you could complete the collection and have a static object in a generic house covered over the fact that there was fuck all else of real gameplay interest to do.

 

Nevermind, yep the game was amazing, the only game that ever felt like an online world amirite (fingers in ears at the mention of UO). SOE did an amazing job, flawless really. PVP was super and highly competitve  and the PVE, man the PVE was awesome. There would have been at least 110 million subs by now if people just tried it with an open mind. It having a low pop and shutting down is all down to a few bitter vets and the coming of SWTOR , the bastards.

People just could not get over the changes and lost trust with SOE/LA there and then on Dec 15th 2011, and no matter how good the game was they were just not going to try it again, wasting more of their time, effort and money. When retrying it again on a free trial it was more or less the same, but even with the improvements, it was not the game they once played, but yet most of them now are getting into SWTOR.

Although even with SWTOR people are leaving it and not going to sub at the end of the 30 days, and there were no changes to add to the mass exodus.

As for the new people, I bet the majority of them just saw all the bad reviews and stayed away and not even tried it, but those that did probably kept thoughts of the bad reviews in their mind, and used it as an excuse not to get involved with the game.

Obviously some people are not going to like the NGE, like you it seems, and I did not like the change either as my Jedi I spent years on grinding professions and the going through the village, was as good as my Enteratianer I AFK'd after respeciing from Ent to a combat prof just before NGE hit, and then respecced to Jedi in NGE. It was all a waste of time, and I was angry as hell, but then over time I just looked at SWG as a new game, like it being SWTOR, and began to love it again.

I have played SWG for over 10000 hours since Oct 2005, and I have enjoyed every minute of it, and even subbing loads of accounts at one time none of it ever felt like a waste of money, even went subbed the most ever in Sep 2011 to get them all in at the end, costing me more than 2 SWTOR CEs. There were plenty others who enjoyed the game too, and di not find the game crap at all. It had its bugs but its features, content and systems far made up for it. It is the only MMO where the majority of people who got hooked on SWG, keep coming back to, as it never gets stale.

At the end of the day, SWG was picking back up after they put in the constant free cts, as beforehand there was only one full server. but by June there were 4 full servers. If they had made the annoucement about shutting the game down in Sep / Oct giving 2-3 months notice, and populations dropped after the free 45 days then I would pretty much agree with you, and would not be here praising SWG, but unfortuantely the shutdown announcement came when the game was on a high, and the future looked bright, and people were really having fun in the game for the first time for years, and I was the most happiest with the game since 2003. Also if SWTOR had more or better or as good as the systems, even if totally different, than in SWG or any other MMO, then I may have accepted SWGs closure better, but unfortuantely SWTOR has far less features than other MMOs, let alone SWG. Bioware knows it, and James lOhlen is on the case!

You just can't seem to get it through your head that if the game was good people would have been playing it. All the excuses mean jack shit. It may have been the greatest game ever to you and a few thousand people who played it, but to anyone else it was complete garbage.

You can not seem to get it through your head, that people were playing, and when the shutdown announcement came the server populations were RISING.

If SWG was active now, it may have taken a hit when SWTOR launched, but now people are ditching SWTOR they would have seeked out SWG. There are quite a few threads on the official forums my OTHER people, missing SWG, and even saying that SWG was overall better

Appearently, not enough.  Thru all the years of SWG we really still have no idea what exactly the IP payments to LA actualy were.  We have no idea what the costs of maintianing the servers was.  We really have no idea how many real subs there were also at the end.  SOE did.  LA might of had a clue to some of these questions as well.

Fact of the matter is the game ended before the contract completion date for the IP between SOE and LA.  That would lead some1 who has set up contracts, such as this, that SOE might very well have asked for the contract to complete.  Your forgetting that SOE had just came thru the hack as well and was (and still is to a certain extent) restructuring all their financial aspects.  These people here are correct, if SWG was making money as some people claim it would still be there today.  For some reason, we do not know, it wasn't so it's not.  TOR is basicly a moot point and has no bearing on SWG at all.  It will live or die on it's own merits and on the decisions that Bioware makes going forth.

I was there when they did the 45 days for the hack as well.  Before the hack, I had canceled 3 of my 4 accounts as there was no reason to have that many accounts anylonger.  Most ALL of the people I knew had done the same on Bria.  Bria was DEAD.  I logged into my 1 remaining acocunt more out of nostalgia than anything else and then to just walk around my bunker or city and look at the houses of people I knew that had left the game full well knowing that the city was going to be out of time as well.

Sorry, but SWG is not coming back, EVER.  SOE doesn't want it and LA has already stated for the record that they want to do ALL future development in-house.  That leaves NO wiggle room at all.

Super, you and Hip and any1 else who wants some of what SWG had might take a look at Dawntide.  It has housing, citys, deco, creature taming, crafing that requires "stations" and you can fail at, large open worlds, sandbox, 35s of a sort, ship and world combat (this time on water instead of space), etc.  The only real difference is full PVP/full loot but I have a rather large thread over there now on this exact subject that their devs are looking at it and designing for as I've had pms from a developer trying to make this game into something that an SWG vet might like.  I played the open beta before they took it down for a complete world redesign and it is supposed to be back up by next month for the final period of testing before launch.  Come on over and help us "SWG vets" make Dawntide into something that we can recapture at least parts of SWG.  That's about as close as any of us are ever going to get and the more of us that are there pre-launch the more we will get into the design of Dawntide so we can all have a game again.

Put that gaming passion you have to work again.

Cosmo,

You should get with Starmond (remember him from old SWG).  He just pitched an idea for a Koster-esq game to Hero engine and they game him a package that included the engine, a project manager, and a deal for them to produce and retail his idea/game.

I can put you in touch with him if your interested.  You guys might be able to build it together.

Esq.

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Kazara

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Esquire1980

As the wife says, "It's dead, Jim" seeing that signature pic I copyed from these forums many years ago in fact.  It really doesn't matter anylonger, does it?  It's gone and it's not coming back.

I emailed LA saying that SWTOR is no where a good as SWG and would like it back, and they passed my feedback on to the relevant people. SWG can come back by popular demand, but if people think there is no hope and do not let LA know then it will not come back.

 

LOL! I don't think this will be happening ever. How well did the 'petition'  to save SWG work out after the closure announcement was made? How many even bothered to sign it?

$OE/LA  will not be bringing SWG back. it is gone - let it go.

It was the best MMO out there, and deserves to be brought back.

The petition did not work at the time because there was all hope on SWTOR, now it is not that great as expected they are now realising why people went all out to try and save it, and the peition was not a wasted effort.

Before Dec LA were ignoring me, but now in Jan when they are seeing the decline on SWTOR they are not and realising that SWG had more attraction than they thought.

Something is going to be done - either SWG is brought back or SWTOR changes to be more like it. Preferably SWG is brought back, and then leave SWTOR as it is, otherwise it will be like another NGE

i don't realistically think that very many would be interested in having SWG revived using the NGE format, and where there is no real demand there is unlikely to be any real action, even if they were willing to try, which is doubtful. The NGE was an unmitigated disaster that is so well documented i wonder why some refuse to see it for what it is, im sure SOE would rather ignore it ever happened, all things considered, even less of an incentive for them to rehash old mistakes. SWG's Pre CU version is probably the only version that would be likely to draw any attention anyway, and at this point, its debateable whether it would even be enough. Time to face facts im afraid, SWG that was is dead and buried, you can go visit the grave and throw flowers, but.. i don't think anyone is going to lend you a shovel.

/agree.

I actualy had a hour long tel-con with Lorin Jameson (Deadmeat) after the launch of C6CD.  He did tell me he brought CU up on their internal servers thinking about a "classic Server" and then said it was "so buggy" that it couldn't be saved, at least in his estimation.  DM did say, for some unstated reason, that Pre-CU was not an option and could never be brought back.  T2, several months before the closure announcement also took some of my posts and pms and "went to the board" with an idea of a "classic CU server" also and was shot down like a drone over Iraq.  SOE or LA, or both, had no interest in even trying at T2's point in time.

Super, I agree with you that even the final version of NGE was more playable than all the other AAA MMOs combined, but you really need to remember how it actualy was the last year.  Even on Bria it was hard to get a heroic group going, it was hard to get a group going for invasions, etc etc etc.  There was just not the players left.  They had migrated on.  I loged into SWG just to run around my city or walk thru my bunker that had 1400 items in it.  I no longer was playing my 4 crafters due to the fact that there was no reason, no sales.  If I did do something in game, it took me 1/2 hour to even get ready dual boxing so I could buff my jedi to kingdom come to be able to solo 99% of the in-game content.  It just wasn't actualy fun longer.  SWG was such a community oriented game that when the community wasn't, the game pretty much wasn't as well.

Wife, who played SWG since about 2006 is playing WoW after trying TOR and not making it thru the 30 days that came with the box.  So is 4 or 5 that was in my SWG guild.  (Really sad there as I just won't ever play WoW)  I mess around in STO, occasionly, as I have a lifetime and STO really had it's own version of an NGE in the last 2 months CHANGING the game for F2P.  Looking with a reserved apprehention for Secret World and actualy looking a bit forward to Dawntide to come back up for open beta this month or next month.  You guys should give it a look see.  It's not quite like SWG (as their plan was to make a game more like UO with the full PVP/full loot) but it has about 40 profs, skillboxes, housing, citys, deco in and outside the houses, crafting you can fail at, ground and water (instead of ground and space), just a lot of the old Koster systems that were included in both UO and SWG.   It's planed on being pretty resonable for costs also for launch.  Free downloads with somewhere around $90 for a lifetime or $12 a month sub.  Might be somewhere to go for all of us. 

I seroiusly doubt if SWG will ever have another chance at anything.  It just didn't have the draw while it was up, after CU and NGE and really evident after C6CD when the population fell to around 30K on 25 servers.  If it did, it would of never been shut down in the 1st place.  But good luck on the try.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

 

 

I still say that LA were involved with the way they wanted the NGE, as SWTOR is pretty much the same as the NGE, with 8 classes instead of 9, and a lot of stuff just cut out. SWTOR just seems like the NGE with enhanced version of the Legacy quests / Tansarri quests (which had attempted voice over) with the NGE - minus player housing and cities, dumbed down crafting, dumbed down space, no Beast Master type thing, no player created content system, less freedom of travel etc etc.

The NGE turned SWG into a WOW clone, but still managed to retain its sandbox elements. SWTOR is now that WOW clone they wanted all along, and has nothing to do with SOE. The only difference with the two is that Bioware had years to polish it, whereas SOE only had a few months and they could not want to shut the game down temporarily, and went for immediate action. If SWG switched to SWTOR as it is now, instead of NGE, even if Bioware took over from the NGE, people still would have quit. They knew people would have quit but thought people would return once gotten over the change. I remember a video of Julio Torres saying this, when expalaining the NGE in 2005. He is from LA, and actually involved with KOTOR and also Force Unleashed. Here is the video, and stating people will return at 2:00 to 2:45 in the video. It was on the G4 site in 2005, this user uploaded it to youtube later.

SO, basically I now see no differnce between Bioware and SOE, they have both given LA their WOW vision, except Bioware were given a lot more time to get it done, and also I would say if Bioware handled SWG they would have done NGE worse, as SOE are experienced MMO developers whereas Bioware are newbies, assuming SWG would have been their first MMO. You can see their MMO noobness with SWTOR, as it just does not feel like a MMO like, WOW, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, Aion, Rift, City of Heroes, basically all of them including SWG. SWTOR feels like a single player KOTOR/Mass Effect game with online multiplayer bolted on.

Rubenfield does state they were asked to re-imagine the game from the ground up.  If that directive came from LA or from SOE San Diego (Smed), he does not elaborate so we do not know the answer to that, period.  You can believe what you want to but the facts are simply not there at this point in time and may never fully be known.

You do not need facts you just need common sense.

All public comunication came from LA about NGE, on the forums, and if it was Smed behind it he would be the one taking the flak or praise for it in that G4 video instead of Julio Torres as he has been for the past 5 years, after LA abandoned all communications to the playerbase about SWG. If you were in Julio Torres position and Smed brought in the NGE causing an uproar, would you stand there and take it or let Smed do it and try and sell his NGE? I bet you would get Smed to do it.

Once the NGE failed, LA just stayed away and let SOE deal with it. SOE could not run away as they owned the site.

I also do not see SOE making the directive because Star Wars is not their IP. You do not mess with Star Wars or George Lucas will crush you! SOE just maintain and run it. Everything to it points to LA

Fairy wings is debateable whether is SOE or LA, and I doubt the Fedora and whip was SOEs idea but LA as that was a blatant rip off of Indiana Jones but the NGE is definately LA.

 

Sorry, but wrong again.  LA did not make all the communications about NGE.  Torres just made almost the same statements coming out of SOE which I would expect since this was a quasi-partnership and the statements should coinside.

Smed did take FULL responsibility for the NGE as SOE has stated it was all them and apoligised for it, even.

Anytime you put aside facts for "common sense" and assumptions you end up with a large problem.  It was well known that SOE made content and LA either yea-ed or nea-ed it.  "Fairy wings, Fedora and whips", or even flying ewoks with hearts on their chests.  All SOE Austin and Oked via LA. Altho fairy wings et al was about as bright in a SW game as zombies.

I'm not saying here that LA doesn't bear some brunt for the NGE, they do, they Oked it at the least.  They may indeed have placed a directive to "re-imagine" the game as Rubenfield reports, we just simply do not know that at this time and anything else is just an assumption based on nothing.

As the wife says, "It's dead, Jim" seeing that signature pic I copyed from these forums many years ago in fact.  It really doesn't matter anylonger, does it?  It's gone and it's not coming back.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

 

 

I still say that LA were involved with the way they wanted the NGE, as SWTOR is pretty much the same as the NGE, with 8 classes instead of 9, and a lot of stuff just cut out. SWTOR just seems like the NGE with enhanced version of the Legacy quests / Tansarri quests (which had attempted voice over) with the NGE - minus player housing and cities, dumbed down crafting, dumbed down space, no Beast Master type thing, no player created content system, less freedom of travel etc etc.

The NGE turned SWG into a WOW clone, but still managed to retain its sandbox elements. SWTOR is now that WOW clone they wanted all along, and has nothing to do with SOE. The only difference with the two is that Bioware had years to polish it, whereas SOE only had a few months and they could not want to shut the game down temporarily, and went for immediate action. If SWG switched to SWTOR as it is now, instead of NGE, even if Bioware took over from the NGE, people still would have quit. They knew people would have quit but thought people would return once gotten over the change. I remember a video of Julio Torres saying this, when expalaining the NGE in 2005. He is from LA, and actually involved with KOTOR and also Force Unleashed. Here is the video, and stating people will return at 2:00 to 2:45 in the video. It was on the G4 site in 2005, this user uploaded it to youtube later.

SO, basically I now see no differnce between Bioware and SOE, they have both given LA their WOW vision, except Bioware were given a lot more time to get it done, and also I would say if Bioware handled SWG they would have done NGE worse, as SOE are experienced MMO developers whereas Bioware are newbies, assuming SWG would have been their first MMO. You can see their MMO noobness with SWTOR, as it just does not feel like a MMO like, WOW, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, Aion, Rift, City of Heroes, basically all of them including SWG. SWTOR feels like a single player KOTOR/Mass Effect game with online multiplayer bolted on.

Rubenfield does state they were asked to re-imagine the game from the ground up.  If that directive came from LA or from SOE San Diego (Smed), he does not elaborate so we do not know the answer to that, period.  You can believe what you want to but the facts are simply not there at this point in time and may never fully be known.

You'll not find me taking up for TOR.  But, if you didn't know that TOR was going to be a WoW clone you again do not have all the facts.  Their lead dev was hired away from SOE as were many of the devs of that time.  Bioware took so many of these guys it opened a studio in the same town, Austin TX.  They continued with that even taking Adept-Strain well after the fact.  Dallas Dickerson, lead for TOR/Bioware, had his hands in the NGE up to his sholders so even looking at the Rubenfiled blog, NONE of these devs thought they did anything wrong with the CU, NGE, and even C6CD thru GU-Whatever.  They thought "the marketing failed" is why their CHANGES went down in MMO history as the exact what not to do with an MMO and fnaly killed what playerbase they had for each and every one of these CHANGES.  Bioware has a sucessful game made with KoToR so why wouldn't they try to recapture that sucess again with an MMO that bears even the same name and IP?  I never thought that TOR would be a sandbox and neither LA nor BW ever said that it was going to be.

Now, would LA take more control with their 2nd MMO?  Probably.  I doubt that Bioware would be able to get by an NGE past LA like SOE did before.  Interesting to note here that LA has stated that all of their IP games will now be made  in-house so probably all is not peaches and cream between LA and BW as well.

Originally posted by hipiap

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by ericlatrelle
Awww. I see Buffy_bites made his way to the MMORPG forums to spread more of his bs lol. This is going to be fun.

Buffy_bites where? He does not like these forums as too many people bash on SWG for his liking, and not much support.

If you think I am Buffty, then no. We are friend and just discuss and agree on the same things, and most of our so called "BS" as you put it is taken from what Tiars, 0nyx and other respectable SWG players have had to say, which all makes sense.

Now SWG is shut down I now have time to keep posting about SWG, wheres before last week I was too busy playing SWG to bother.

ericlatrelle is about 2 ounces short of a full pound..  Only slightly less amusing than JestorRodeo and Tux and Raiden.

 

Tiars and Onyx and a few of us other regulars have always been able to see the difference betwwen what the SW:G Dev's wanted to do and what LEC made SOE do to SW:G.

Sorry, but most of the above is simply wrong.  We have Rubenfield's blog that said basicly what happened and why to fall back on now for more than "I think this is why" deal.  LEC may have indeed issued the directive to "fix" the game, (altho we don't know that for sure), but it was Rubenfield et al and SOE Austin that created, discussed, and then implimented the actual changes of the NGE.  Even full well knowing that some CHANGES were going to have most of their playerbase leave.  Per Rubenfiled, they talked about it and he stated the same very clearly.  And even after the NGE, no1 says it was LA's fault for again trying redesigning the game yet again with C6CD - GU-Whatever.  I doubt if LA even cared at that point in time as they probably wrote off SWG in Dec 2005 when they started talks with Bioware.

Tiars and I have talked about this many a time as I was on the same server, I helped him ingame as he did people in my guild in space, he's been in my vent many a time, (and btw, I had an active account right up to the closure notice), and I seriouly doubt he'd be all that thrilled to have you use his name in this context.

You can try to blame former players for SWG's closure all you want to.  It's a free country.  But, in the end all/be all it was SOE that destroyed SWG and their poor attempts in recrafting the game post launch, not once, nor twice, but 3 times in the games 8 years.  People like Jestor were just reacting to a very bad business decision by SOE and TUX was a senator who got shafted.  I may have still been a sub to SOE but the truth is the truth.  I actualy found Jestor quite entertaining at times.

Those who are looking for the true "Koster" version of sandbox should take a look at Dawntide.  It's in "

open beta" but developers are listening and has most of the charistics of the old SWG.  Player housing, citys, skillbox, deco, crafting only rivaled by SWG, large open worlds, etc etc etc right on down the line.

For those that may be a little worried about the malware report in this thread, I linked this thread over on the Dawntide forums and a developer responded;

Quote

Hi Esquire, I’m glad you and the people you brought in are enjoying our beta so far. We certainly still have bugs (development beta!) and the game style isn’t for everyone. I saw someone in the thread you linked raised concerns about our site being (erroneously) flagged for malware – it actually has to do with our downloads page containing a link to the exe (and not just an archived version of the file) – nothing to actually worry about. We’re in the process of getting it cleared, but there is certainly nothing malicious about our site (except for all of the time this game can eat out of your day heh.) Of course, we want our users to feel safe, so hopefully this will be resolved as soon as possible.

End quote

Hope this lays the fears to rest.  Please remember, if you try this, it is a beta and they could have problems like this that will get fixed.

Originally posted by Jarazar

I played the game and found it dull and extremely barren and buggy.

Yeah, it's pretty beta.  But, I'm reporting bugs, making suggestions on the forums which actual got replyed to on a Sunday from a red name, exploring the world they laid out.  Talked to about 5 old SWG vets tonight on vent, that was planning on TOR, and every 1 of them is on the download.

It's not a game that your going to find NPCs standing with a gold marker above their heads.  No dev installed ring in the nose to lead you thru content that when it's done, the game is done either.  There are no quests.  Just total freedom and a world to explore.  No instant gratification either.  Ground about 400 gold tonight, spent it on pen, ink, and paper,  made 2 deeds for a "small house", and failed on both of them but gained 23 XP in arch.  (and loved every minute of it)

Had no problems with the software.  Cked with AVG and Gameguard after the download.  It may have thrown that message due to the developer being so small and unknown.

Dawntide

http://www.dawntide.net/

Ck it out.  Full sandbox gameplay, in an early stage of beta but it's open for any1 to join atm.  Set in a Conan type setting, crafting where quality of materials matter, looks like decay is a factor, housing and deco along with player cities, ship building, etc etc etc

Small independant developer that is actualy listening.  I made 1st post on the forums and a GM responded in less than an hr on a Sunday with answers.

With all the yelling we all have done for a "sandbox" game, let's try and see if this one might be the game that we're looking for and help them get it off the ground.

Originally posted by Mondo80

Do you guys push handicap people out of their wheelchairs when not on these forums??  Its always "X game sucks or stay away from X game"   You do NOTHING but hate and BITCH about any game here that is even remotely popular, I've seen it on the EVE secton, on WOW like crazy and a bunch of others.  You say you've read the forums but have you even played on the test shard?? Or even read any of the patch notes?  It is still in beta and they are still working on it.  People jump the gun all the time based on early beta info and are suprise as hell when they come back a few months after release.

As far as I read, the day for compromise is now over.  The dil with crafting is still there.  The VA token, that used to be given out as soon as you reached that level and needed it is now a sub only and you get to wait for almost 2 years to get it, all of the grinds with dil for even subbed players remains, the NERFs with the skillbox revamp are never going to CHANGE, etc etc etc.  They have stated they're going to work now on "bug fixes" and push the CHANGES live over a month before even the F2P launch.  "Pay to beta?" 

As with most "betas", what they have worked on is included and will still be what goes to live.  You never played SWG, did you?  If you did, you would probably know what is going to happen next.

Originally posted by Rusty715

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Originally posted by Gdemami

Is there a release date for F2P release? I am looking forward to trying the game out very much.

No date as yet.  But, get out your credit card and "come on down".  You'll need it.

Yeah, I wouldnt think Cryptic would have to make a lot of changes. The cash shop has always been well stocked.

Have to give you that one.  But........,  you would be amazed.

Now it will be some1 has to go to the cash shop for at least something, subbed or F2P.  They even are putting in a system for ingame trading of C-points for one specific item that is time gated in game.  "Gold sellers", basicly.  And oh, BTW, they raised the prices.  lol

TOR is looking better and better. 

Originally posted by Gdemami

Is there a release date for F2P release? I am looking forward to trying the game out very much.

No date as yet.  But, get out your credit card and "come on down".  You'll need it.

Originally posted by Grand_Nagus

Every time someone compares something to the NGE is just shows me how little they actually understand the NGE. The NGE removed the majority of SWG's professions. Those professions were gone forever, period. Nothing is actually being removed from STO. Things are being changed, and I dont like all of them. But chaning something and removing it are not the same thing. This is just another example of someone who doesnt truly understand the NGE trying to use its name for shock value.

To be honest, all your post shows me is you really fail to understand what the NGE was and is.  While the removal of the 32 profs were a part of the NGE, it was only a part.  It may have well been the part that affected you the most in your personal opinion, but it was still a part of the massive changes that came under the banner of NGE.

The original NGE also included the combat CHANGE to "benny hill" combat speeds which really is the thing that started it all according to Freeman and Rubenfield.  When SOE Austin started the NGE the removal of the 32 profs was not even into play, it came later. The NGE included the removal of the village. The NGE included taking jedi from unlocked and "earned" to "one-click" jedi.  The NGE included all the remaining alpha status of jedi removed.  The post NGE in-game economy was CHANGED overnight.  The NGE included the compete removal of the skil box system.  Visibility was removed.  The NGE made a permanant division of jedi classes in "elder" status and NGE jedi.  It included items for jedi that were promised to be better (for ever) for these "elders" which later was pretty much gone back on. etc etc etc etc etc.......... .  Many other CHANGES other than the loss of the 32 profs were also made a part of the NGE.

My daughter left SWG the day of the NGE patch and she played nothing more than a dancer.  Her prof was not removed but she quit just as much as some1 who loged in to get the respec screen.  It would seem that you misunderstand what the entire NGE actualy was.

The NGE was "massive changes" made to an existing game, post launch.  A term that Cryptic devs are now using to explain their list of "massive changes" also.  They full well know this is an NGE.  NGE was brought up specificaly by Cryptic devs on S-4 as they, at that time were trying NOT to have an NGE and stated the same.  If you remember right, no profs were removed with S-4.  Dstahl went out of his way to leave the existing combat system in S-4 to make the new development a choice and not an NGE.  But, Dstahl is now gone and I /agree with the poster above that believe Dstahl left knowing what was happening here.  Freeman and Rubenfield have been plagued by the original NGE many years after the fact and I would think that Dstahl was smart enough to know not to have his name connected with another NGE made by another company.  The NGE was a company trying to go after a playerbase they didn't have at the expence of a playerbase they did have.  You actualy believe this is any different in the stated motives for Cryptic's F2P?

NGE was all inclusive.  It got ev1.  There was something to hate about it for all.  If you can get by Cryptic's version of economy CHANGES, then the crafting CHANGE gets you.  If you can get by that, then the CHANGE to existing items gets you.  Pay to Win comes into play here also if you actualy like all the other CHANGES.  It is rumored that player skills will be NERFed by 75% of what they are now with the skill box CHANGE forthcoming and that will affect EVERY player in this nothing more than "pew pew" game that Cryptic has made..  It would seem that this round of CHANGES has something for ev1 to hate also.

Cryptic's version includes "take-away" development even to the extent of taking away abilities of C=Store ships people had bought and paid for.  Cryptic's version includes many CHANGES to existing systems, existing items, prof revamps (with the new skill-box revamp still coming), etc etc etc, right on down the line.

You can "spin" it how ever makes you sleep at night however, I am now convinced that even Cryptic knows what they are doing is the "quint essential NGE" and if you would even be honest with yourself, you would also.

Armsman is in fact in the same "fleet" I'm in.  Even he seems to be a bit dismayed due to all of these CHANGES.  And in his defense, just about ev1 is, to a certain extent or another.  Very simular to SOE's NGE here also.  It was all inclusive, if you didn't care about creature handler being removed (mostly by never playing the prof or wanting pets), then you were ticked due to the removal of unlocked jedi or just having jedi being "one clickly".  SOE's NGE had something for ev1 to hate.  This is about the same.  If P2W didn't grab you right out of the starting box, then the crafting CHANGES did.  It's getting ev1, somewhere, also.

You have to be rather fast seeing the threads.  The forums are moving so fast these days with new threads that the moved/deleted threads are getting buried fast.  This was about the same in SOE's CU, NGE, C6CD also.  To Storm's credit, he's moving alot more threads to the beta forums than he's deleting but there are many people asking why he's intentionaly "hiding" them there altho that may be where they belong at this point in time.

In TOS Vets, anyway, I've seen that "fleet" go from about 30 on per/night to hardly any1.  BigRedJedi has now said his "goodbyes" in a thread in the PVP forums that for some reason or another, Cryptic left up.  Most of the "I quit" threads are really jumped on fast and has been that way since launch, pretty much.  I read numorous threads from people saying they are activly talking people out of trying STO in F2P mode for 1 CHANGE or another.  Bioware, I would imagine, certainly likes the fact that Cryptic is going thru all this trouble as TOR seems to be talked about on the STO forums about as much as regular STO gameplay with entire fleets now moving to TOR in Dec.  I have a couple of STO fleets using my vent server as a way to keep in contact so that ev1, who would want to, end up on the same TOR server.

I've got the excel.  There are at least 4 long threads on the removal of the 3 transwarp locations on this ship alone.  And then to keep the 6 out of the 9 locations you have, you would have to switch consoles with the T3 and the T5 ships to do it.  (have to buy both).  Altho, I transfered my main over to tribble and altho the excel is really the only C-Store ship not to get another console spot so I actualy had to remove a console I was using to use this new console (with 3 transwarp locations and a 7.6 Eff power to everything), that ship is basicly very OP now.  In PVP, it realy took over 3 players to take mine out and with the extra power, I believe that it's getting very close to tanking a full team of 5.  With the console and my crew of EFF BOF's, my excel runs at max weapon power and 80 shield power to boot.  P2W sure works there, for me anyway (not so much the guy who I'm in a PVP match with tho) but they still turn around and take something away from it to boot.  (another characteristic of the original NGE)

To be honest, what will probably get to the last remaining hold-outs of Cryptic defenders will be the up coming skill point revamp.  If I was Cryptic, at this stage in the game, I would make sure that no1 lost nothing, but that is clearly not the design here and I would believe at this point, there will something in that CHANGE that leads directly to the C-Store there also.

To be honest, I think now that Dstahl seen what was happening and decided not to be a part of it.  There were specific developers who got blamed for years (even to the point of affecting their job seaches) over SOE's NGE.

It never ceases to amaze me how many gaming companies repeat the same mistakes and wonder why in the aftermath that they just didn't get rich over it.  Head scrather, to be sure.

Personaly, just a month or so ago, and after having been in beta for TOR, I wasn't planning to leave STO for TOR.  Their CHANGES have now CHANGED my mind about this in it's entirety.  I just do not care to watch another NGE go down or watch a game get life support and then death because of it.

With STO going F2P, They have a build on tribble (their beta test server for this specific round of CHANGES) that CHANGES professions as far as existing ship powers/etc (even bought and paid for ships via the C-store), CHANGES crafting almost in it's entirity as far as being able to craft and what needed for the process, CHANGES the economy that has been the status quo for the last 2 years totally, "take away" development such as VA ship tokens/powers for some existing ships/ingame methods of respecs, CHANGES the "raids" (in game STFs as they are called),  some items in their store going up to even $20 for a single virtual ship while others just got an increase of pricing by 100%, etc etc etc.  You can ck out Cryptic's "tribble" forums for a complete list of forthcoming CHANGES.

Their forums are erupting, "I quit" threads all over the place, people leaving the game in droves (even some who have played since launch and wrote guides/etc), PVP has become so unbalanced on their test server that it is almost unplayable unless you spend large dollars in their store, and maybe last but not least, the phrase of "Working as designed" (close to SOE's "working as intended") showing up in dev posts.  Devs getting testy with customers in threads due to all the negativity.  Cryptic community rep locking/deleting/moving threads left and right, etc etc etc, right on down the line with exactly what happened with SOE's NGE.

I would imagine this will work as well as SOE's NGE did.  It would not surprise me that about 3 months after this goes live, that the game will be a totally dead server, put on life support, and finaly when CBS pulls the IP, ends up the exact same as Star Wars Galaxies.

MMORPG.com, will you be taking out the SWG Vet Refuge forums (due to that game closing) and starting 1 over here (for the same reasoning you did for SWG)?

Originally posted by hipiap

Originally posted by TUX426

 

Do you HONESTLY think Lucas Arts gave a crap about the 500 or so SWG players?!

Lucas Arts didn't care...they gave up years ago when they allowed SOE to add in pink flying Ewoks with purple hearts. Lucas Arts had little to do with this aside from agreeing with SOE that it was probably wise to not renew the license.

Tux....pre-Shut Down Announcement the population was much larger than the mere 500 you make it out to be and you Know it Mr Blue Glowie. SOE has stated that the Population was stable and increasing, although no where near pre-NGE or Pre-CU numbers.

LA told SOE they were not going to renew the License in 2012, and Offered to Buy out the remaining Time in 2011 to remove the Choice of which SW MMO people played.  Forced Choice to Play TOR or nothing but that flightless bird we do not mention on this Forum.

LA has treated SW:G like the Holiday Special since 2006 because they got slapped in the face by the reality that WoW subscription numbers were not going to happen to a MMO that is from a Niche Market IP.

STO is having the same reality check right now.

Games like EvE and WoW are giants because they appeal to Space or Fantasy fans.  They are anomolies in regards to their sub numbers.

 I very much know that Tux's 500 number was and is a little on the low side, but the falacys of SWG being population healthy is simply not true and I had a sub up till I canceled it this weekend.  Hostel's "Save SWG" poll didn't even have 5000 signatures on it and at this point in time, I would believe that that's just about ev1 who was playing. (altho if you look at the signatures, "John Smedley" also signed the petition)  I signed it myself, along with my wife who subed up until this weekend herself , full well knowing that it was an excersise in futility, but Hostel was a "friend" in SWG for a long, long, time.

All I have seen SOE say is that subs were "consistant".  Consistanly low is still low and not worth turning the servers on for.  If SWG would of been profitable, the game would not be going down.  That's the crust of the matter.  It was not, for LA or for SOE.  There were threads here, after C6CD (and that massive % of sub loss, that LA was "forgiving" the IP payments for SWG and they would not or could not do that forever.  All LA does is sell their IP and that is their bread and butter.

The only time SWG, since NGE, was actualy gaining a bit of subs was before C6CD and then not all that much.  At the time of the launch of yet another massive CHANGE to the game, Smedley released that SWG HAD over 100K subs.  Now, that does not mean 100K players as pretty much ALL of us had more than 1 account (wife had 5 accounts and I had 4 myself), but at 100K, I would imagine that it was "worth turning the servers on".  However, C6CD finished that off, Deadmeat "beat feet" and the rest is history, finaly with history culminating itself on the yet to come date of Dec 15th, 2011.

From what I see, STO is doing better, not great, but better.  There are many  "capped" fleets with 400 people in them, minus alts, and I've seen quite a few coming back to try it again or try it for the 1st time.  Several SWG players, newer and older, are there also.  Dstahl just stated on the forums that "subs were up" again, also.  No sence in making that any more than what it is.

While there is no sence in making out SWG worse than it actualy was, there is also no sence in making it a better situation than it actualy was, also.  If it was doing great, SOE would of NEVER asked for the contract to end before the actual contract completion date, and LA would of never said "hey, we just don't want your money" anylonger.

We all knew it was going to happen, just not when.  After C6CD-GU Whatever, when they tried to CHANGE the game yet again, to get the old vets back, everything except what the vets really wanted, and Deadmeat bailed, it was pretty much all over except for the date.

Only difference now, is we all have the date.

SOE/LA knows that SWG would of been no competition to TOR at all.  The playerbase is so low on SWG, even before the announcment, that it really does not factor into TOR and it's anticipated playerbase at all.  Hard to admit for a current SWG sub but SWG just did not, and would not get, the subs to continue.  Even before the closure came, players were wanting more free transfers and they gave them out.  There was a reason for that.  There was only 3 servers that could even be called decent out of the 12 they have left after the 1st server closures.  LA said it all.  It's no longer finacialy viable.

It doesn't matter what the licence fee is.  The intake was not enough to match the outgo.  That's the crust of the matter and the deciding factor in ANY business venture.  We all know the reasons for the lowered playerbase and at this point there is really no point to rehash these (except for other gaming companys experiences of learning) now.

SWG, via SOE/LA, will be gone on Dec 15. 2011.  It was a money decision.  They don't want to close the game just to tick off the remaining playerbase.  There is no corporate scheme and/or collusion in the bitter end of it all.  There is only the bottom line of profit v losses and after CU, NGE, C6CD, and GU-Whatever CHANGES SWG didn't quite make the mark there.

It was really easy to see way back when.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/6/view/forums/thread/203234/The-perfect-storm-factors-leading-to-the-downfall-of-an-MMO.html

This thread was from 9/20/08 and quite an interesting story of pre and post NGE.  Entire story is post 7.  SOE/LA knew the outcome even back then when Deatmeat was moved and a Producer who was put in to do nothing except train for Clone Wars was his replacement.  SOE was given the IP for Clone Wars as a consolation prise as that was the expected path they thought they would follow at the time.  All that was left was the date and the contract end would probably surfice here.  I imagine the "hack" caused that day to be moved up by a matter of months.  SOE has stated that the contract was ending in 2012, that does not necessarly mean that the exact date was Jan 1st.  Even if it was, SWG still ends 16 days before the ending of the contract.