Originally posted by Gamesmith

The problem is that static questing will by and large almost always be dull or utter nonsense. Static quests by nature cannot alter the state of the world, otherwise players who come after you cannot enjoy the content as it will be "used up", which is not good for business. Automatically, a game that relies heavily on static questing cannot give players what they really want: A way to affect and alter the world through their actions.

I think a big problem with MMOs is that they're designed to let every player "Be the Hero!". In a setup like this, quests are created which progresses the player through the world in a mostly linear fashion. The quests typically play out like a single player game but in a multiplayer setting. I think that this is the biggest fundamental absurdity in MMOs. Everyone CANNOT be the hero.

MMOs need to step back from this approach. I think that, for the most part, players who are not content with the current crop of MMOs are mature enough that they don't need to be a hero to enjoy a game. Yes, there will be heroes, as there would be in any epic story, but becoming a hero would be an achievement, an accident or a way of life (defending newbies from PKers for instance). Either way, being a hero would be something to strive for, rather than a privilege of the game.

I honestly think that static quests need to be a supplement to dynamic quests handed out and ran by live GMs. I fully believe that the next big MMO will be the one that takes a risk and charges more for subscription to be able to support a live GM team to undertake such a task.

You pretty much said it.  The static quest system is possibly the worst "innovation' so far in the genre.  Heroic, immersive, story-driven, that's all bull shit.  It's linear, scripted content that plays the same for every player.  Why do players get bored?  Because they chew through this content, then sit around and wait for the next batch of content, which will last a whole week or two.  You can't get attached to a game world like this, since you're not really a part of the world in any way...your just passing through, taking your turn on the rides.

"Why run through the content so fast?  Just slow down and enjoy the journey."  Good question and good point.  Except that there's no "journey" in this type of game.  You know where you're going at every moment (A to B to C), there's no mystery, and there's no real danger or consequences.

You could say that the static quests aren't the real problem.  The real problem is that the entire game is bent around the static quests.  Nothing exists in the game world unless there is some quest tied into it and most of the development focus is towards quests.  Just think about that, tons of money and development time go into creating quests that players will chew through in 1 week...

Originally posted by Zippy

I doubt any of the BIG budget MMOs ( SWTOR, HoT, FF14, Carbine's new game or Blizzard's new game ) will release in 2010. 

This is the likely scenario.  If they claim 2010, expect 2011.  So far, I haven't seen any interesting AAA MMOs on the beta horizon.  Just my opinion though.  Would lik to hear more about WoD and Schillings MMO though.  Other than that...

Originally posted by metalhead980

 

As much as I like the pve within pvp mechanic I just havent seen a way to keep the content available to everyone. It's always the hardcore Play all days that kill those things.

Do you want to play a game where the main hook are pve encounters in the middle of pvp zones but whenever you log in the bosses are always dead?

I've been through it so many times I hate having to join a big business like hardcore guild just to see content like that. Yeah its fun to actually fight over the big bosses but the need to wake up at 3am (being woke up by your GM) just to kill a boss is something I wont want to revisit.

No, I don't have time for that hardcore camping shit.  But, i was talking about a PvE only game.  And Id rather not see any thing that needs to be camped.  Dynamic PvE and spawns would be a true step forward. 

Originally posted by Josher

 FPSs certainly take a lot of skill when going up against people who actually have skill.  Its amazingly apparent how sick some people are when you play them.  I've NEVER encountered that in an MMO.  They might be sick because of gear, but I've never been outplayed so much that I couldn't believe my eyes.  Understanding all the classes and abilities isn't easy when you're playing on a competitive level.  You can easily see how good or bad some people are.  However, certain people from COD, CS, Halo, UT or Quake way back when, are simply on another plane of skill.   That next level just doesn't exist in a MMO.

I bring this up every time.  You can get "good" at an MMO, but it's no where hear what you see in FPS.  That extra level of skill just doesn't  exist in this genre, mostly due to combat mechanics and level/gear dependancy.

For the record though, I don't think we'd want MMOs with that type of skill requirement, because it really wouldn't work well in this genre.  But, it would be nice to see the numbers toned down a bit in favor of actual player control. 

The Origins server would have brought a LOT of vets back, for a little while at least.

DAOC had a damn near perfect PvP design.  I wish some one would take that, remove the pointless PvE grind, add crafting resources to the frontier, and add in the ability to siege an enemy realm.  I'd sign on...

Originally posted by metalhead980

How do you get around spawn campers?

You know the no life newbs that use alts to camp boss spawns so the unemployed guilds can get easy non-contested boss kills at 4am?

Is that ok to you? I always found it a problem in games with open world pve encounters on long respawn timers.

This isnt 1999 anymore bro, were arent in college anymore. how do you make it that shit like that doesnt go down?

Don't design the game around killing predictable boss spawns.  In fact, don't design any thing that the players can easily grind or camp on.  Give boss mobs a % chance to spawn some where within a specific zone. Theres so much shit along these lines that just hasn't evolved at all.  Instances were just a band aid solution.

This thread should only run about 10 or 20 pages.

Don't think there are too many instance free, upcoming MMOs.  These games are less MMO-like with every new release.  They're heading more towards being "lobby games"...of course, they'll still stamp MMORPG on the box for marketing purposes.

In an MMO, I always feel like the back story and the atmosphere of each zone are FAR more immersive than any quest could ever be.  Scripted encounters/instances just don't do any thing for me.

FPS combat absolutely takes more skill than MMO combat.  Sorry, it does.  MMOs generally follow the same power curve:

level>>gear>>>>>player skill

Get equally leveled and geared players into PvP and then you'll see some difference in skill.  Still not a huge difference though and even then, I'd say group coordination counts for much more than individual player skill.  In PvE, theres no comparison.  MMO PvE could be played by a monkey, as long as it has the right class, level, and gear.

Still, I don't think you need FPS combat in an MMO to make it fun or engaging.  Just adjust AI, spawns, what ever to make PvE feel more like PvP and it would be a huge improvement.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

 It's too bad that people are so lazy they don't even want to explore MMORPGs anymore.  Without exploration, it just makes leveling kind of boring and meaningless. And with the trivialized quest for exp system like in WoW, it makes leveling into running from point A to point B enough times.  There is no challenge or thought required in leveling from 0-80 in WoW, because everything is dumbed down so much.

Btw, in EQ you didn't need map sites, or sites to tell you where quests are located, because there werent 5000 quests per city.  Leveling was a matter of finding a zone that you liked leveling in and going there.  Not, "Find an area with the most meaningless quests"

This is a big problem with gaming in general now.  People expect to be guided through every thing with no difficulty what so ever.  I just don't get how that's entertaining.  Sure, you're busy and you don't have time for 8 hour game sessions, guess what, neither do I.  1-4 hours is about all I ever put towards a game session and still, I'd rather log in, explore, get lost, learn for myself, find some challenges.  Knocking out a few easy-mode quests is not at all gratifying.

Forget the old school, "hardcore" days.  I just want gaming that brings back some mystery and exploration.

When I played LOTRO (way back when), I think I was on Elendilmir (sp?).  For the most, part every one was pretty helpful with this kind of stuff.  I tend to do a lot of soloing, but I would almost always help some one out if they needed it.  

You really can put a lot of the blame on the quest system.  The quest hubs and quest chains have every one constantly running around at full speed.  Its hard for people to break that mentality and slow down to help some one.  And, when you do find a good group and start having fun, every one splits as soon as that one short quest is over. 

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Tatum

Pointless arguement.  Almost every MMO has an open world and lots of game play "options".  That's a given.  The reall questions are:

How much depth do those game play options have?

How many advancement paths are there? 

How much can players create, change, and affect the game world?

 

And how much fun is it all?  Because without fun, nothing else matters.  Thats the problem with sandboxes.  They concentrate on "stuff" but not on "is that stuff actually fun".  For the vast majority, they just aren't fun to play.  Make a FUN sandbox and people will come a runnin=)

I'm not even going to use the "sandbox" term.  I'll just say that, eventually, some one will make a fun MMO that's much more open and much less linear than what we have now. 

WoW isn't a success because it's a themepark, it's a success because of polish, accessability, and marketing.  Put those three features into "more open" MMO and you could still be successful. 

I agree with what others have said, the first major success on that end of the spectrum will probably be some sort of hybrid themepark/sandbox game, with elements of box mixed in. 

Pointless arguement.  Almost every MMO has an open world and lots of game play "options".  That's a given.  The reall questions are:

How much depth do those game play options have?

How many advancement paths are there? 

How much can players create, change, and affect the game world?

Originally posted by loirnoir

Originally posted by Pedrote
 

I like questing, but know quite a few people that like to progress by PvP or just grinding mobs. Questing is not a must, actually

That's not really character advancement. Role-playing games include the advancement of the world and  your character as a whole

When does MMO questing actually do this?  You do the exact same quests as 1000's of other players, with the exact same result, the same basic rewards, and nothing in the game world really changes.  Most all MMOs are static, the game world remains the same whether you quest or not.

Originally posted by Kyleran 

It is not financially possible to make a single game that caters to all people and all playstyles.  You basically advocate the creation of  separate "servers'" that cater to every play style. PVE, FFA PVP, RVR etc. which essential advocates creating separate games.

Wasn't this pretty standard "back in the day"?  I remember DAOC having RvR servers, FFA PvP servers (two), and a PvE server.  I know people can clear this up, but didn't EQ and AC also have alternate servers?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

In fact, there is absolutely no evidence that a "hardcore" game would be drawing a large audience beyond niche. And it takes a lot to convince investor than "I said so".

The trend is very clear.

MMORPGs are getting easier.

SP FPS are getting easier.

SP action games are getting easier.

 

 

It's true.  But, in the long run it's the core fanbase that keep things going.  Mainstream fans are fickle.  MMORPGs are popular right now because WoW is popular.  That bubble will pop sooner or later and when it does then genre will basically go back to where it started...the core fanbase.  Sure, the genre will be bigger than the early days, but the LARGE marjority of the WoW crowd will have moved on to other things.

Quests had a better "feel" when they were restricted (mostly) to epic and class quests sprinkled in with mob killling.  Turning MMOs into nothing but a quest train was just a bad move.  Every one gets into this full-on sprint, from one quest to the next, through a series of extremely linear, self contained zones.  You can't mix level ranges in a zone because *gasp* new players might stumble into some thing above their level and die.  God knows how awful that would be, to die and have to walk back from the spawn point 10 feet away...

Then, for some weird reason, there's this idea that questing absolutely has to give better xp than mob killing and even that you shouldn't be killing mobs when there are quests out there.  Sorry, when you have a lot of generic, scripted, mindless quests I'd rather just find my own entertainment some where in the game world.

Recent MMOs have put a lot of effort (apparently) into including some thing for every one in their game (mostly mediocre and shallow mechanics at best).  I don't understand why they won't go back to the idea of alternate rule set servers.  Just seems like this would satisfy the most people for the least amount of effort and resources.  PvP server, PvE server, some sort of hardcore rule set server, why not? 

Mindless mob grinding/camping sucks

Mindless quest training sucks

For the most part, both have been pretty weak and "cheap" in MMOs.  The old days of mob grinding had some positives, but yea, we were really just camping static, predictable spawns with little to no risk or challenge.  The only risk/challenge involved was being aware and dealing with adds.  Thats it.  The rest was just planting your ass in one spot for hours at a time.

On the other hand, the quest based shift has NOT been a clear step up.  For a while, yea it seems less boring and repetitive.  Eventually though, you realize that you're mostly just watching your GPS, running back and forth from A to B to C with little to no challenge or thought.  On top of that, questing causes a ton of issues with grouping and really kills immersion when you realize every quest you complete basically just resets for the next 2,000 players to do.

I honestly don't know how you could implement a "great" quest system in an MMO.  No one has done it so far.  Maybe some one will take the public quest idea and run with it.  Could be some potential there.

I think there are plenty of ways to improve mob grinding, some of which have already been implemented (dynamic spawns, less predictable AI, better combat mechanics, non-linear zones, complex faction systems, etc).

Originally posted by Muddleglum

I wish a developer would just put the small stuff that EQ had back into a game.

Even though EQ was a level/class based game, skills still played a part. You couldn't hope to reliably cast a spell from a school you hadn't practiced in.

I liked that if I didn't have a light source I was blind as a bat  (BB  tunnel as a Barbarian without a torch or wisp stone was fun!). Just having darkness made things like spells or playing a race with low-light vision or ultra-vison a real perk. 

Languages were fun, yes you could learn them easily but it was still fun to have them.

I know WoW has food but it's just for stats and effects you don't need it, I like it when you have to be mindful of your supplies.

Not being able to tell directions unless you were skilled in it, and no map made it extra confusing but getting lost led to a lot of adventures for me at least.

I liked how druids in wolf form would draw guard aggro because really why wouldn't the guard come after a wolf or bear or somthing in an area they were protecting. 

Encumberence, swimmingskill, ect.. Theres a lot more but it's just simple stuff like that that has such a big effect imo.

I think they have left out a lot of the best from the past instead of building on it like so many have claimed.

The modern MMOs have REALLY missed the mark in this area.  All of the little details and "fluff" add style and depth to the game world and unfortunately, they've been cut in favor of more focus on combat (which has always been awful), quests, and leveling.

Things like real darkness, no maps, etc are just viewed as too difficult and time consuming.  In short, NO STYLE...