Originally posted by chouming

How can anyone choose sweeten coffee with milk over black coffee ?

If you can answer that, then you can answer your own question.

Easy, because they cant really handle the taste of coffee.  Same reason they drink "lite" beer instead of real beer. 

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Tatum

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Tatum 

Lets cut the bullshit.  Admit that MMO combat sucks and shift the focus back to the features that make the genre unique.

 

Which would be what, exactly? Subscription fees, excessive lag, cutting-edge graphics circa 1990, or enduring all of the above for the sake of watching a 'furry' roleplay a shoe cobbler?

 

 

I was thinking more along the lines of SWG...minus the suck.  The original design of that game was damn close to what an MMORPG should be.  Just ditch the big IP and buy some polish.

 

SWG minus the suck? That leaves what, the John Williams soundtrack?

Ok, seriously.  If you don't think the design of SWG was good (yes, the "design", not the end product) then which MMO did have a good design?  Not like you have a lot of choices outside of that, either the old school grind fests, or the newer, cheesy-instanced-co-op-quest-train-stuff

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Tatum 

Lets cut the bullshit.  Admit that MMO combat sucks and shift the focus back to the features that make the genre unique.

 

Which would be what, exactly? Subscription fees, excessive lag, cutting-edge graphics circa 1990, or enduring all of the above for the sake of watching a 'furry' roleplay a shoe cobbler?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of SWG...minus the suck.  The original design of that game was damn close to what an MMORPG should be.  Just ditch the big IP and buy some polish.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Tatum

IF the genre hasn't really changed that much

AND we (the players) are the real problem

   THEN the important question (which has been asked before) is:  Why is the mmorpg genre the only gaming genre that almost guarantees you will be burnt out after your first major game?

FPS, RTS, RPG, people pick up one title after another and never have the compaints that nearly every veteran MMO player has. 

 

Maybe those other genres simply don't appeal as much to the whiney subset of nerds prone to confuse entertainment with an OCD lifestyle choice?

 

Nice try, but no.

The other major genres have their share of lifeless, obsessive players too.  Not to mention, a good amount of us who complain about MMOs don't even have 30-40 free hours a week to spend on them.  I'm actually pretty busy...still doesn't mean I'm willing to settle for mindless, retard level entertainment when I do have a couple of hours to kill.

Fact is, MMO combat has always sucked complete ass.  That's not even debateable.  Yet, for some unknown reason, MMOs have trimmed down their worlds and gameplay to focus more on combat and small group instances...WHY?  If you want non-stop combat there are plenty of other games that offer some thing more exciting than mashing 1-2-3-4 over and over and pretending that your skill as a player has any effect what so ever. 

Lets cut the bullshit.  Admit that MMO combat sucks and shift the focus back to the features that make the genre unique.

IF the genre hasn't really changed that much

AND we (the players) are the real problem

   THEN the important question (which has been asked before) is:  Why is the mmorpg genre the only gaming genre that almost guarantees you will be burnt out after your first major game?

FPS, RTS, RPG, people pick up one title after another and never have the compaints that nearly every veteran MMO player has. 

Playing Borderlands right now (4 player co-op is insanely chaotic and fun), not sure when I'll get to check out Dragon Age. No plans for MMO gaming any time in the near future. Why would I?  These co-op and single player games are just that much better.  They have the one thing that no MMO can hope to create right now...fun game play.  When was the last time (outside of PvP) that you actually had fun just killing shit in an MMO?  How about never.  Take the crazy loot and levels away, and the game play in BL is still a blast

Diablo 2 in FPS form.  Very fun, addicting game.  Much MUCH better in co-op.  Seriously, if you're playing on PC get a 4 player LAN game going, it's one giant, chaotic mess of loot and fun.

Don't come in expected a story driven game or an MMO.  Borderlands is non-stop action shooter.  Again, a lot like Diablo 2 where the action and loot were the only real attraction.

After HG:L I don't want to get too hyped...but this game has a lot of potential.  Diablo 2 style co-op with FPS and an open game world?  Yea, that should be a slam dunk.

Challenging vs easy is not the best way to look at things, because MMORPGs have never really been challenging (aside from PvP).  With simple, predictable AI the only thing you've ever had to do in an MMO is learn your classes skills and when to use them.  Thats it.  Increasing the size of encounters might seem more challenging, but in that case youre really just trying to wrestle every one into performing their basic task.

Dangerous vs safe would be more accurate.  Olders MMOs could be fairly dangerous and punishing.  If you went some where out of your level range there was a very real chance of death and loss. In newer MMOs, it seems much easier to get out of most situations and, if you do die, the penalty is too small to even worry about.  Is this better?  Well, it can be less annoying, but its also much less exciting. 

PvE in DAOC was, most definately, a grind.  When you're standing in the exact same spot, hour after hour, killing the exact same mobs over and over...that's a grind.  Hell, the grind is why I quit playing DAOC.  I had my main up to 45 or so and just couldn't stand it any more.  Was much more fun to just jump into the BG and have at it for a few hours.  And that was the major flaw with that game. The RvR design was great and PvP was, for the most part, really fun at times.  So, why ruin it by installing a massive PvE grind that is only going to kill the end game RvR?

Newer MMOs have replaced that PvE grind with the quest train, which doesn't feel as grindy. However, they don't have nearly the end game that DAOC had.  For the most part, newer MMOs are just quest driven level fests.  Quest your way to the cap, re-roll, quest your way to the cap, re-roll...

Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see too many AAA MMORPGs with seamless worlds in the near future.  Seems like they're all heading towards heavy instancing.  The "MMORPG" is only there to sell more boxes.

The worst part, is that even with all the instances, the combat is still weak, the quests are still weak, and the game play is pretty much exactly the same.  So, I have to ask, what the hell is the point of using instancing in the first place?

Originally posted by TheHavok 

But in my own personal opinion, any game that revolves around progression and the goal for most of the people to reach the end of that progression, is grindy. 

Thank you. 

Replacing mob grinding with quest grinding didnt solve any thing.  You can spend all the time you want reading the quest text and trying to immerse your self in the lore, but as long as its static and scripted, who the hell cares.  You're not part of the world or the lore, you're just watching the movie.  And, in the end, you're still just waiting for your xp-and-shiny-loot hand out.

Originally posted by ProperLogic

BTW, I've seriously been thinking about playing Oblivion.  I never actually beat it, and there's 2 new expansions.  What I'm wondering is which do you guys think is better... Oblivion or Fallout 3? and why!

Can't really say that one is better than the other, they're just different.  Although, I will say that Fallout 3 (unmodded) is much better than Oblivion (unmodded).  Of course, Oblivion has been out longer, so there are tons of good mods out there.  I just made a couple upgrades on my PC and started on Oblivion again with Obscuros mod and Martigens mod.  The game is 100% better with just those two mods installed.  I'd recomend those to anyone who has only played vanilla Oblivion.

I'll have to check in on Fallout 3 eventually to see how the mod scene is looking there.  Figured it would take at least a year or two for the really good mods to start showing up.

MMORPGs have milked the same old, tired, boring, repetitive game play for all it's worth.  The difference (game play wise) between the early MMOs and what we have now is very little.  They're still focused on combat systems that are only slightly less boring and repetitive than what we used to have.  Genres like FPS can get away with this because, well, they've always had entertaining/engaging combat.

For some of us, it only really takes one MMO before we feel like we've seen all the genre has to offer.  After that, it's just more of the same old shit in a different box.  No one has fixed any of the real problems, they've just made the genre more accessible.

Eventually, some one is going to release an MMO that's nothing like what we've seen before.  That might be 10 years from now, but I'll be glad to see it when it gets here.

One of the games that I've been waiting to hear more of...but you have to give us more than a freakin cinematic trailer.  I've seen enough of those completely irrelevant fuckers to know that you're better off just not watching it.  Wake me up when they slap together a game play vid...

My guess still goes towards a heavily instanced, Diablo-esque type of game.  Story line game with single player offline/online mode and online multiplayer mode.  They'll sell a ton this way...and they'll stamp "MMORPG" on the box to sell even more.  Can't really blame them.  If they attempted a full-blown MMORPG they'd just end up with a turd like every one else, so it's probably better off this way.  Just don't try to convince me that it's a real MMO.

Well, if you're not interested in finding a good "outdoors" hobby, then do a little digging for a good single/multi-player game.  I picked up Civilization IV (never played the older ones) a couple weeks ago and damn, that is with out a doubt the most addicting video game I've ever played.  These mod-friendly games are, IMO, a better buy than MMOs right now.  You get better, more challenging game play and a pretty good amount of content.

PvE isn't going any where.  A lot of us have just been bored with it since, well, since the old days even, because no game has ever (IMO) done a good job with PvE.  It's either been pointless, repetitive mob grinding or pointless, repetitive questing.  The community never has a collecitve goal or motivation for going out and slaughtering wolves other than xp.  The closest any one has come to this is just having a really good faction system.  But, thats about it...

And, like we've said many times before, PvE is too damn easy/predictable.  That's why theres such a shift towards PvP, because people want a thrill and a challenge. 

Originally posted by Silas26

 the core of the problem : esthetic has been improved, to the cost of what really matters.

I am in no way involved with game development...but I don't know what else to blame it on.  It seems like graphics are the major focus with every single game now.  What is the first thing people comment on when they see a new game?  The graphics/animations.  If a game is lacking in this area it gets hammered right out of the gate.  If a game has great graphics, every one plays it, then bitches about the bad game play.  Well, WTF do you expect?

Seriously, I'd like to know what the difference is (as far as time/resources required) between a game with top graphics, standard graphics, dated graphics, 2D graphics, etc.  Would be interesting, I think.

Seems like MMOs have followed the same pattern as console games and single player games:

 - graphics have improved

 - polish has improved (drastically)

 - much more accessible

 - mainstream appeal is higher than ever

On the flip side we have:

- less depth/complexity

- less features

- less game play options

- less appeal for the "core" crowd.