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Originally posted by replicant

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Originally posted by Sovren1

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Originally posted by saduce
thats not a big shock considering from what ive heard you can take a lvl one to the max level in a day or two using all the cheats for it. Guess if i had nothing better to do id do it too.

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Ya, me too...I had to lol when I read this. I THINK the fastest time from 1-70 is like 6-7days played time meaning a total of 6-7 complete days with a guide that tells you how and when to pair quest up and finish them with limited grinding (run on sentence, but oh well). That's a few 12 hour shifts and can be done in 99% of the MMO's out there. At least in the majority of the ones I have played.

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The fastest currently from 1-60 is 1d 20hrs using a Frost Mage to Instance PL. From 1-70 is just a little over 3 days played using the same method, but switching 60-70 to a Blood Furnace PL'ing team of 2-4 people. People are finding ways to PL other characters very easily and it will only become easier. Quite a few people are already sub 5 days /played 1-70 just soloing.

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Ok, i've found vids of warriors pling to match the time of the mage you speak of and only since 2.3. I guess I was speaking from the point of view of a few months ago when I believe 1-70 solo was about 6 days played. Think since 2.3 it's down to 4+ by the same person. At least thats all I could find anyway.

...

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Originally posted by rikilii

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Originally posted by Sovren1
Oooooh! What happens when your opinion is fact?

Then it's a fact, not an opinion.

Or you only have an opinion because of a fact?

Then it's still only an an opinion, and it has no bearing on the truth of the "fact" or lack thereof.

Or your opinion of a fact is fact?

Then, once again, it's a fact, not an opinion.

Since it's fact can you not have an opinion that echoes a fact?

It's still not an opinion, if you're just regurgitating fact.

What happens when fact is a fact because of an opinion?

It may be a "fact" that your opinion is what it is. But your opinion is still, in fact, just an opinion.

If fact is truth, what happens when untruth is an opinionated fact?
If fact were fiction, or fiction were fact,
it still wouldn't tell you,
the truth that you lack

W/e...answer truthfully (YES or NO), will the next word you say be NO?
It will not.

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Satisfied?

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Oooooh! What happens when your opinion is fact? Or you only have an opinion because of a fact? Or your opinion of a fact is fact? Since it's fact can you not have an opinion that echoes a fact? What happens when fact is a fact because of an opinion? If fact is truth, what happens when untruth is an opinionated fact?

W/e...answer truthfully (YES or NO), will the next word you say be NO?

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Originally posted by saduce
thats not a big shock considering from what ive heard you can take a lvl one to the max level in a day or two using all the cheats for it. Guess if i had nothing better to do id do it too.

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Ya, me too...I had to lol when I read this. I THINK the fastest time from 1-70 is like 6-7days played time meaning a total of 6-7 complete days with a guide that tells you how and when to pair quest up and finish them with limited grinding (run on sentence, but oh well). That's a few 12 hour shifts and can be done in 99% of the MMO's out there. At least in the majority of the ones I have played.

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Originally posted by Exupery

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Originally posted by SioBabble

It is indeed (launched late June 2003), but when WoW came out, and smashed all records of subscriptions, Smedley went insane with envy as his ass was so totally pwned by the upstarts of Blizzard, and the WoWification of SWG began. There's evidence that once WoW came out in 2004 and took the MMO market by storm, that's when the CURB was ditched and an attempt to slavishly copy WoW with the CU, which was furthered by the NGE, began.
The first obvious attempt to copy WoW was the new graphics of action icons in the UI that the CU introduced, which eliminated the elegant UI icons of pre CU with "cartoooney" icons very similar to WoW.

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Blizzard is older than SOE nubsauce. WoW did come out a year after SWG, but Blizzard is certainly no upstart.

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Think he meant Blizzard's FIRST MMO. NUbcake

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Originally posted by SioBabble

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Originally posted by Sift

You guys are insane... SWG has more of a twitch FPS feel then it does a wow feel.... And every feature wow has is a ripoff so what are you trying to say? I love wow but if your trying to argue that its original... its not.

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Who's saying that WoW is original?
My contention is that WoW is the ULTIMATE 2nd Generation MMO. Blizzard took a look at everything that was out there, took from them what they thought was workable, playable, and cool, and then refined it, tested it, polished it, and presented it, with deliberate simplification to make it run smoothly.
A good example of simplification is the graphics of the avatars. Unlike in many MMOs, your avatar's customization is drasticly limited in WoW, and one of the effects of this is that rendering multiple avatars on your screen is a far less complex and lag-inducing process than it is in SWG.
WoW's success is a boon for Blizzard, but it's the bane of the MMO genre, in my opinion. Because WoW has been so successful, the suits want to be like WoW. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and envy, and the MMO industry has become every bit as formulaic as it matures as the cinematic entertainment (movie and TV) industry is. More and more games are put out that try to slavishly follow the WoW formula, just like you've got dozens of Law & Order/CSI type shows all over the tube, and there are formula films (slasher, teen sex comedy, baddass male action) that are pretty much the same and predictable on the big screen.
In SWG's case, they had an original, groundbreaking system that needed polishing, bug quashing, and more content, either directed, or tools for players to create content. Instead of going forward with the foundation they had, they elected to trash a game that built player loyalty and community and replace it with Star Wars with as WoWized a skin as they could manage.
All because the "King of MMO's" (SOE) found themselves being pwned by the upstarts of Blizzard. Who beat them at their own game by putting out a simpler game than they had, but one that was polished and worked practically from the instant they went live. The aspect of WoW that has a great deal to do with its success, which SOE stubbornly refuses to imitate, because they just don't DO polish...they're allergic to it or something.

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Well said, or typed rather. Pretty much says it all or types it anyway.

Hypothetically speaking...If Guild Wars were a true MMO, class wise it would be probably one of the best if not the best running right now at being balanced. IMO, no one class is structured to be a counter to another.
True MMO's could learn a lesson from Arena-net. An Ele can beat a War, A sin can beat a War, A Derv can beat Paragon, A monk could beat a Derv, A Mes can beat a ranger, so on and so forth. It's all about what you chose to leave home with for a particular battle.

The instancing sux imo, but the pvp has the right idea. Too bad theres auto-facing and practically nothing in terms of movement besides forward,backward,left, and right. It hurt when I first played and there wasn't any jumping or swimming.

I like the way the skills are set up though for a fast paced fight. Cooldowns are glorious in Guild Wars. Basically nothing over a min. Even had the level cap been 70 these short cooldowns would make for awesome fights.

Bring skills in your own bar to counter an effect given to you. Hex and condition removal.

I like how interupting is so clear cut. Hexes are clear cut. Being a healer is action packed and not boring like most real MMO's. always moving to get a great position...even in the pve(pvp is a given). Healing in MMO's like WoW for instance...you can stand in one spot for like most of any battle.

Possibilities are endless.

GvG is where it's at also. The way a battle can lead all the way up to VoD. Shit I miss that. Alterac Valley should be exactly like GvG. Have a reason to break a team down with holding the center of the map and flag running to gain morale.

Imo Arena-net also doesn't get all NERF happy either. When they balance skills and classes it seems to be more so to change the Meta-game. Not really to fix anything that another class cries about being OP.

As much as I did like Guild Wars...I had to come back to WoW because it's just a larger game. It's fun leveling. Grinds at 70 are killer though. To get into the good stuff you kinda have to be in an adequate guild also. If you aren't...there is a large portion of the game you will not see or experience. Shit, pug-ing heriocs was a chore when I was between guilds.

Anyhow..my 2 cents (more like 65 cents with a note attached that reads...this post is kinda pointless).

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Originally posted by zarzu

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Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Almost every oriental MMO that has come out to date are all rush jobs to get it out the door for mass amounts of micro-transactions and a quick buck. The simple fact that there is now a catagory for "Asian MMO experience gains" to compare how a game will translate into time vs experience is proof enough. The reason I say this is because anyone will tell you, a game that requires 6months or more to obtain maximum level is a "hardcore" setting shows that the game is question does not have the content to support normal play styles.

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almost every western mmo that has come out to date are all rush jobs to get it out the door for mass amount of monthly subscriptions and quick buck. the simple fact that we use the word 'grind' in the mmorpg world is because of early western mmorpgs. the reason you tell us stuff no one wants to know is because the amount of serious asian mmorpgs is ridiculously low compared to the serious western mmorpgs, aion is not a cheap low budget mmorpg that looks like the 200 asian mmorpgs no idiot plays, the fact that those mmorpgs are on the market has nothing to do with how good the quality of serious asian mmorpgs is, but rather with the insane mmorpg boom where everyone wants a piece of. all those games suck and flop within weeks, no intelligent person plays them.

there is not one mmorpg on the market with even close to as realistic characters as aion has them, anime style? you obviously have no clue, next you tell me that vanguard, wow, eq2 or daoc models are more realistic than the ones from aion. they are not, they all suck, bad.
yes aion has an asian feel, yes aion has those weird hair colors like pink (oh wait, western mmorpgs do have those too), so what? it has nothing to do with anime, if you gonna compare it to anything on the asian market then compare it to mangas, the ones that are drawn more realistic than most western comics you've ever seen, like berserk or blade of the immortal, which you of course do not know as you have no clue whatsoever of art/comic/game design but still feel like you can comment on it.

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This is exactly why I didn't want to get into this conversation, but you sir have said what I should have.

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Originally posted by Ephimero
The basics of Anime are drawings with the minimum ammount of lines possible, cheap and easy to produce in masses, thus why Japan's comic market is so filled with mangas and why there, the style is such a hit. There are some more complex concepts like the number of circles used for the body proportions and for the head being different than the typicall DC comics style, but I guess this isn't the place.
People tend to confuse anime style with oriental style, and in Aion, most of the ornaments used, and some of the available avatars look oriental indeed, this wouldn't be called anime style tho, cause the designs are way more complex.
Anyways, the concept of asian graphics it's getting blurry on mmorpg communities, if you take a granado espada character and compare it to a real life model, you'll see that the proportions are way more accurate than a wow or even Age of Conan ones, face and body wise, so are we starting to confuse realistic with asian? It's obvious that atm, asian market has brought the best graphics to the mmorpg scene, so that's why I wonder.
Btw, I love this issue since i'm professional designer, and i've been pretty inspired by the manga style/learned its basics, so I could keep writting hehe, but I guess it's time to stop.

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Anime style and oriental style? Confusing realistic with Asian? WTH are you talking about. Not even going to get into this conversation.

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Originally posted by liddokun
Looks like a lot of people are misinformed about Electronic Arts. EA is a publishing company that publishes video games and the like but they have many divisions. They don't even make their own games but instead do the distribution and marketing so how the hell would it be that they need programmers? If you hate EA that much not to play anything that they have associations with then I guess you won't be playing Warhammer online since it's gonna be published by EA and developed by EA Mythic.

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You are the one misinformed about EA. They not only have many divisions that are EA creations(making them EA right) who create many of their titles, but own/ oversee or partner with the many studios that fit into the umbrella. Studios like Mythic, Dice, Flagship and such. That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure you can find many more.

Hell, I'm willing to bet if you type into google :EA creates/developes, publishes, and distributes you will find many hits because that's exactly what they do. Not just one or the other. That's like saying Microsoft doesn't make games...they own studios that do. Well, they also have a division that creates their own games in house. Another publisher that does the same thing...Lucas Arts. They have published I think Like 99% of their games. Created a certain percentage of those on their own while the others were with the help of outside studios like Bioware.

Added, If I recall correctly, the last few Bond games were made inhouse by EA and not some partnering studio or one they bought. I could be wrong though. Maybe I should wiki it or actually research it.

I am totally on board with what the other posters have said.

The game for me stood fresh for a long time because it gave you the option to solo nearly every portion of the game with the help of henchies. They came in very handy when you couldn't find that healer or nuker to get on your way.

Then came heroes in NF that were customizable skill wise. This addition kinda turned the game into even a more single player game where you really didn't need anyone else. I like this addition on a 60/40 scale. Gave me time to do things when I couldn't find a group, but made it so that people would rather use them than finding a group which was the down side.

Overall nice story through all 3+GW:EN. Made sense. From what I can tell, many view GW as 3 different games. I however view them all as one. So I play in them as one not being separated.

I like actual story progression through instancing. The cut-scenes really stand out to me and will probably always be remembered. Problem Guild Wars had imo though is that the stories were too short and many things could be skipped to reach the missions that told the main story. NF tried to fix this by reqs to get into missions or for them even to be visible.

I kinda like the way mobs are set up also. Where each battle you are fighting multiples. Where the healer is constantly moving around for position. It's not all tank and spank. Even when it is it doesn't feel like it.

Skill customization is also a plus for me. Gives you the opportunity to play your character in a variety of ways. Great support of hybrid play. I could be an elementalist who only uses assassin skills or a Necro who only uses warrior skills. No pigeon holing in this game. Grouping in pve may try and force you into certain roles, but really...the possibilities are endless.

No sub fees.

Grinding is hardly noticeable to me. The only grind that stands out to me is title grinding. This really has no bearing on anything. Only time I have noticed that it does is puging pvp for heroes ascent where groups want you to be of a particular level. Heroes Ascent pvp guilds also usually have some sort of req for this.

Overall just a nice piece of work. The good points outweigh the bad points for me (bad points of which I will not list here... plenty of those also as with any game). Even though I do not play anymore, I will always remember it as one of the better games that I have played.

Personally I think the that the console world and PC world will soon be at the point where one IS the other.

1. DAoC (first MMO to have me stop playing any other genre for weeks on end)

2. Planetside (shooter + world to be immersed in really was a very good time)

3. WoW (honestly I didn't enjoy myself the first time around due to me not actually wanting to play any MMO's at the time. Gave it a second shot this summer and am continueing to enjoy myself. As many things as some say it does wrong...it does more right than 99.99% of what's out there thus far.)

4. Guild Wars (such a fun casual game to play. Many may not consider this an MMO, but I do. I really like the class skill plug "N" play Magic the Gathering style of of character building. It only gets boring to me when I start thinking about what this game could've been or done. Oddly enough some of the things taked about for GW2 are actually some things things I had wished the original was. Can't Wait.)

5. CoH/CoV (I don't think any game on the market really can compare to this worlds character customization. It did however get bland to me after only a few months)

Beyond this list of five there are a few that stand out, but are imo a pick and choose your poison on how you are feelig on any given day.

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Originally posted by dertomok
Well , I can say the site , where you can find skills builds and equipment for skills builds and that site is : http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page .

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yeah, this link is where you will find the metagame builds. you will even find ol school nostalgic builds. Tested and concept untested builds. Really a great tool imo. Some may bash you though if you admit to using any of these builds for your supposed lack of creativity, but chances are that the build that the bashers are using are on the site aswell. Atleast a variation of one I would say.

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Originally posted by Lobotomist

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Originally posted by Sovren1

Having what I called earlier a "crutch" in the system is imo an unneeded mechanic. While it may support some sort of imaginary idea of fair play, it's just another limit to what we can do as players.

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You see this is exactly what I am talking about. Good number of people see this gameplay valid one.
But not all of them.
Actually lets take example of ultimate pvp-skill game : Counter-Strike. It has the bunnyhopping tactic , which could be and is very powerful in right hands. Developers of CS never saw this as a a wierd tactic so they left it alone.
But than you have a game like Battlefield , where not only you can not run(sprint) and shoot ,or jump and shoot - but it also eats your stamina , as well making your aim go bonkers.
Is this a crutch over CS players ? I dont think so. I think it is more realistic.
Does it limit the gameplay over CS ? No , it opens diferent gameplay.

But anyway.
I still think, and this discussion only proves it , AOC will be bunnyhopping, lolcoptering heaven.
Maybe it will not be the ultimate pvp strategy , but it will be present , and annoying as ever

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Ya...I agree. Regardless of how or what people say the system will be like to try and defend itself from it, it will be there. Personally it only makes those who come up against these type of tactics better. You adapt and overcome any tactic thrown at you or you don't win.

But to your comment about Battlefield and CS, um...bunnyhopping is still seen in Battlefield. Players make up rules to try and stop it but if it's a ranked server, you can't really make rules that change game play or how one plays. If it's in the game, it's allowed.

Not sure what you meant by quoting that line though. The "crutch" being an auto-face type thing is what i was speaking of. Hope you were too. I don't like it, but it works for some games.

Yeah, I agree with those who say strafing and circle strafing IS pvp. No different than a flank imo. You maneuver to get a better position on your opponent to strike. While he's readjusting, you are attacking. In shooters you employ the very same tactics. Strafe, duck, prone, and crawl.

Autoface could be good in the MMO world to induce one side of fair play. Guild Wars does it and has been successful. It's hardly noticeable and they have projectile dodging which many games thus far do not.

However, autofacing for me kinda limits the overall skill of a player by giving them a crutch. Training wheels so to speak. If other pvpers are even remotely like me...then it's about more than just facing the competition. More than pressing a few buttons or keys that shoot out your magics. In these games it's about showing the full capacity of what you can do to get the better of your opponent on all fronts. Position. Build. Attribute distribution. Armor selection. Skill selection or tree selection.

I think the more avenues that are open in pvp only keeps the game fresh and allows you to come up with many tactics to get the job done.

Having what I called earlier a "crutch" in the system is imo an unneeded mechanic. While it may support some sort of imaginary idea of fair play, it's just another limit to what we can do as players.

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Originally posted by xenogias

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Originally posted by DAS1337

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Originally posted by GrimmWrath

"WAR is simply catering to the whiners and carebears."
Better than caving to the cowards and ragebrats. Any trained monkey can use the immunity of suprise and a practiced set of moves that amount to an "I win button." Funny how the bitter crying as a result of taking the I win button away points fingers at everyone else.
WAR is far better off without that broken mechanic.

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I like how people get so defensive and then start attacking other people when they can't make an intelligent reply.


I've played many other classes.. and even in DAoC, where there were on-shot archers and such. here's what I did to avoid them.

1. Stay with your group
2. Go fight somewhere else.

It's a very easy thing to do really. Yes, I played a rogue in WoW. But, I played a priest as well. I also played a warrior in DAoC. I know what it is like to be killed by a stealther. Even as a rogue, it happens from time to time. What do I do? Get a friend.. or go back and beat the snot out of that player. I don't sit around and cry like a baby. It's all about a persons mentality and personality. If you are generally afraid of conflict or retribution of any kind. You are typically labeled a carebear. It isn't MY fault if people are like that.. and honestly.. they should stay away from this game. I never fight people who have no chance to beat me.. I will never become victim of the chicken/chaos chicken. I don't find joy in beating people that don't stand a chance.. there is no pride in that. Rogues are very difficult to master, you may believe you are the best player, but you are not, no matter who you are.

As far as broken. It wasn't broken in WoW. Yes, there were some parts of it that were more advantageous, but it wasn't broken.

Again. This is WAR. Not Carebears online. Stealth or no Stealth. I'll do just fine.. and I won't complain.. It's either gank or be ganked in PvP. I'll stick with the Ganker role. Even as a warrior priest. =)

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Gank or be ganked and you will stick with the ganker role.
Let me translate that.
"I have no skill so lemme go get my budies after you kick my ass"
I hope not to many carebears like you join WAR RVR. People use carebear in many diffrent ways but my definition is someone who cant do it themself so they have to get there buddies, and then talk about how "skilled" they are.

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That's the nature of WORLD combat coupled with exaggeration. I think everyone does the latter a little. The mature, the insecure, the secure or the immature alike. I'm willing to bet sometime in you're life of gaming in MMO's that you have overstated something you've done. Shit, I will admit that sometimes I thought my skills were baddass only to go ahead and get a grouped wiped accidentally. Man up and not be a putz.

World pvp IS ganked or not be ganked. Structured pvp is fair play so to speak. And I think I speak for many when I say that your definition of carebear is as far from what pvpers use it for as Jupiter is to Mars. Way off.

I for one like the rogue or assassin type in any game. Stealth just gives them a tool to close the distance to deliver their spikage. If they can't close that distance why even have a high damage, low caster armor like MELEE character? To be honest, speed buffs, shadow-stepping, snares or w/e; they need to close that distance or don't stand a chance at all usually. Simple as that.

Like I said before, it just adds another dimension to role options. If you are good and not a crybaby then you can play with what is given. Stealth or no stealth.

I usually like all the classes too as I like experiencing the point of view of different play styles.

I am willing to play with what they give me. Devs say they don't want it, I can accept that. No biggie.

And grimm is way off to if he thinks that all classes don't have their own "practiced set of moves" (lol...did he say moves) for the "I win ...yay" key.

I personally like stealth being in any game as it only adds to depth and the type of characters being played. But, if they aren't going to have it...no biggie. Play what they do have. It's only a game. People will whine and cry about something in any game, or in anything really. That's life.

I can't say enough that people should friggin relax and chill. It's not that serious.

Adapt and overcome is what the best of us will do in any system.

Answer truthfully...(yes or no), Will the next word you say be "NO"?

Simple, someone has to do it. I know, I know...wise beyond my years.