Originally posted by ic0n67

Originally posted by VultureSkull

With the recent introduction of the pet store in WoW and other RMT schemes in other MMOs there seems to be an uproar amongst the community that i don't quite understand.

What is the problem with it?

This already exists in all(most) games with Gold sellers, the only difference is that is now controlled by the game producers?

Surely this is a good thing, at least your credit card will not get scammed and It would also go someway to eliminate the gold sellers no?

As such I cannot see why anyone would oppose, it unless of course it would impact your own gold selling buisness ;-)

 

 

The problem is what is an RMT and what is not. Real Money Trading (or RMT) is the act of play real life money for virtual money. RMTs are your gold sellers and buyers. Their damage to the economy of a game is well documented and if you want to see why they are bad you can look for examples on your own and I'll warn you: there is a big deal there. The problem is the MMO community as a whole have no idea what they are talking about most of the time. Point in case here.

Saying Blizzard is an RMT because they are charging you for something is just plain ignorant. This is a group of people who want what the company is selling, but believe they are entitled because they play the game. This is totally wrong. I have not played WoW in a long while now, but from my understanding of this particular situation you are getting an in-game pet for a donation to a charity? Please correct if that is wrong. What is going on here you are getting a bound item that you cannot trade or profit off of for real-life money. This is an almost direct correlation to XBOX Live's avatar system or PlayStation Home's Market Place. You are purchasing virtual items with real life currency to make you avatar pretty. It is nothing more than that.

If you are looking at some game changing weapon you are purchasing for real money then you'd have a slight argument since it is a direct benefit to someone by having it and thus a hindrance to anyone who doesn't have it. Even then Blizzard would not be RMT they would be implementing a microtransation system and that item would probably be bound to you and unsellable (or sold at an extreme nominal price). Why? Because you could buy 100 of these items sell them or trade them for other goods that you could sell and get gold that you could sell for something you really want. That WOULD mirror what an RMT does and then you have the right to complain about it.

As it stands now Blizzard (or any company) has the right to charge you for what they want to charge you. If you are going to complain about the option of buying a virtual pet then then you could be complaining about almost requiring to buy Cataclysm when it comes out. Monthly fees, expansions, character transfers, race changing (are you charged for that?) ... things you need to pony up the dough for, but the outrage over a non-beneficial virtual pet it sickening. Where is the outrage about the mini-diabolos pet you got for purchasing the collectors edition of the original game. You paid an extra $10-$15 to get that that too. It is the same deal as these new virtual pets (I'll just assume you get at least a thank you letter out of game). Yeah, y'all forgot about that one didn'tcha?

If you don't feel you should be nickel and dimed for every piece of game gear, then don't buy it; I wouldn't personally. Look at my XBOX Live and PlayStation Home avatars, they have clothes that were defaulted. It isn't important to me so I won't get it. If you feel that Blizzard is sinning against you by charging you money don't pay them. If getting every little pet in this game is your thing then pony up the dough. If you are like me and honestly don't care: frankly stfu and stop spreading this vile bullshit because ignorance breeds ignorance and I'm tired of dealing with ignorance.

Dear sir...
 

it has come to my attention that you belevie the fact that i have already paid a monthly fee doesnt seem to matter...ok then i please refer to my previous post about playboy ,you will find them above and on previous pages, after you have it  and the replies ...please answer this question...Is that the playboy you paid for

thank you

mothelm

i think you are looking for station exchange or something like that check EQ2player.com

and our chat was just gettign interesting

Anf still no one has answer the question is it still the playboy you ordered or not ?  haha

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by mothelm

B/C i am not arguing a specfic game or what it is doing i am using a genral example of how this can (and in my dealing with the corp. america ) and will end up ...listen the velvet rope idea for video games is just wrong on so many levels..it hard to pick just one so my point is that when theese things really start changing gameplay in big way (and yes they will its only a matter of time..please refer to John Smedly and his speach about the velevt rope and where its going) that it will cause a major turn in how theese online gameds are done

...for an example of this refer to Xbox-live or playstaion network...how come i didnt get the content when i payed 60$ for this game...ohh wait thats right xbox wants another piece on live account and the game devolper wants another piece for DLC...all i should have gotten with the purchase of the console and the the game  its double dipping pure and simple
 

 

Look, Xbox and PS3 are not the same thing as an mmo, you're talking content, not items to increase your character's skills. And if they did that for single player games, then that's a different debate altogether.

I don't play asian grinders so i can't list all of what RMTs sell or don't sell. My first iteration of RMTs were for WoW's vanity pets and fluff items. When they get more character boosting, then I'll have to re-evaluate my pov.

Until they get there, I understand the argument made but I don't subscribe to it.

Where do you think the idea came from for DLC content...and ohh what is content...?.....in a video game its lines of code that add to game play in some fashion be it vanity pets or a dungeon or new raid mob its all the same
 

Originally posted by thg7f

Originally posted by mothelm

 

ok then so are the pic the reason you ordered playboy or the articles ? cause you have just hit the nerve of my point ...all RMT effect's someone's gameplay in someway ..what you consider fluff i may not...what if i am a pet collector and wanted thoose pets they are selling but cant afford them ...should i not have a way even if itis  very difficult to aquire them without shelling out money ? keeping in mind i have already paid the cost of the game expansions and suscrption fee ?

 

 

Just gonna say this here.  My nephew is 13 and he actually started going around to the neighbors looking for odd jobs till he got his 10$ for the pandaren.  So its not like its an insurmountable amount of money... and as far as it goes, if you are going for the achievement, its perfectly reachable w/o these 2 pets.

Hehehe Sorry you hit the end of the topic the ampounts of money arent really and issue here its the idea of already paying subscrption and being charged again for in-game stuff i cant get in another fashion
 

ohh i havent played WoWo in good while btw i was just using this a a platform =_)

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by mothelm

 

ok then so are the pic the reason you ordered playboy or the articles ? cause you have just hit the nerve of my point ...all RMT effect's someone's gameplay in someway ..what you consider fluff i may not...what if i am a pet collector and wanted thoose pets they are selling but cant afford them ...should i not have a way even if itis  very difficult to aquire them without shelling out money ? keeping in mind i have already paid the cost of the game expansions and suscrption fee ?

 

 

 

Yes, it'd be a bummer if you were a pet collector, but how is that like removing pictures from a magazine you subscribe to and asking for those removed things? It makes no sense, it'd make more sense had you said, pay 5$ more for extra pics of November's centerfold. I mean, if you really wanted them, you'd pay..no? maybe not.

How is this related to the argument that these items makes you a better player? Having a stronger, faster character, or better at crafting, PvP, endgame raiding?

Too many people crying over how it changes but no show of which of these items do this. Just analogies with no bearing on this discussion.

B/C i am not arguing a specfic game or what it is doing i am using a genral example of how this can (and in my dealing with the corp. america ) and will end up ...listen the velvet rope idea for video games is just wrong on so many levels..it hard to pick just one so my point is that when theese things really start changing gameplay in big way (and yes they will its only a matter of time..please refer to John Smedly and his speach about the velevt rope and where its going) that it will cause a major turn in how theese online gameds are done

...for an example of this refer to Xbox-live or playstaion network...how come i didnt get the content when i payed 60$ for this game...ohh wait thats right xbox wants another piece on live account and the game devolper wants another piece for DLC...all i should have gotten with the purchase of the console and the the game  its double dipping pure and simple
 

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by WSIMike

Wow... how many times am I going to have to repeat this. 

People are resorting to strawman arguments now and it's ridiculous.

We are talking about the concept of *playing* the game rather than *paying* to avoid playing it, but still be successful. Thus, how much a ball player is paid in this analogy has nothing to do with it. It's about how the game itself is played.

It has nothing to do with how highly paid the players are... They still have to play, and play well, in order to win. Ball games aren't won in a bidding war by who ever writes the higher check. It comes down to *the players themselves*, not *how much money is being spent*. 

 

What you aren't getting is that analogy is flawed, but the argument makes sense IF the RMTs sell items to enhance the skills of your toons. xp pots don't count as it's just levels, not skill that's being affected. Vanity pets also fall useless in your argument.

What's left?!

Like I said previously, when and where items being sold can change a player skill ingame, then I'll concede the point. For the most part they have not yet, else link me where it does, and I'll agree that game will not be worth playing.

ok then so are the pic the reason you ordered playboy or the articles ? cause you have just hit the nerve of my point ...all RMT effect's someone's gameplay in someway ..what you consider fluff i may not...what if i am a pet collector and wanted thoose pets they are selling but cant afford them ...should i not have a way even if itis  very difficult to aquire them without shelling out money ? keeping in mind i have already paid the cost of the game expansions and suscrption fee ?

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by mothelm

Originally posted by Horusra

But if the market says that people would rather pay money than pay with time who are you to tell the market it is wrong? 

 

since it seems you missed how about this ..from same type of paying model as MMO's and i assuming you are male here please excuse me if you are  not

You subscribe to Playboy for the last 2 years....this month your playboy shows up with all the articles but none of the pictures...and a small letter that says ...if you would like to get the pictures please send us and extra 20 $per month on your subscrption...now you mag says playboy on the cover..has articles written by playboy staff ...so it is playboy but is it the playboy you paid for ?

 

 

That is the most ridiculous analogy yet. Nothing has been removed from any game with RMTs. They add something...

at a price.

 

The analogy is about a game that starts P2P and then ads RMT, if I understand it correctly.

In other words, what you originally paid for, is not what you get.

If the game is RMT to begin with, then you are correct.

 

I understand your point, though adding fluff items is trivial, and until they items that can change the player's character's skills, the point is all moot. I'll completely agree when RMTs being added to a P2P game makes skill altering boosts to characters.

XP pots, really? That's just jealousy of having someone pay to level faster, sure won't help them play later on at max lvl and others see how little they know of their class.

Pets? Again jealousy at not being to get the same pet for free.

 

Funny how no one has answered the questiosn is it still the playboy you subscribed to or not?

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by mothelm

Originally posted by Horusra

But if the market says that people would rather pay money than pay with time who are you to tell the market it is wrong? 

 

since it seems you missed how about this ..from same type of paying model as MMO's and i assuming you are male here please excuse me if you are  not

You subscribe to Playboy for the last 2 years....this month your playboy shows up with all the articles but none of the pictures...and a small letter that says ...if you would like to get the pictures please send us and extra 20 $per month on your subscrption...now you mag says playboy on the cover..has articles written by playboy staff ...so it is playboy but is it the playboy you paid for ?

 

 

That is the most ridiculous analogy yet. Nothing has been removed from any game with RMTs. They add something...

at a price.

ok then how about it shows in 2 part then the article part and the pic part only the pic part has a lockbox around it and writing that says send 5 dollars for key same difference

Originally posted by Horusra

But if the market says that people would rather pay money than pay with time who are you to tell the market it is wrong? 

since it seems you missed how about this ..from same type of paying model as MMO's and i assuming you are male here please excuse me if you are  not

You subscribe to Playboy for the last 2 years....this month your playboy shows up with all the articles but none of the pictures...and a small letter that says ...if you would like to get the pictures please send us and extra 20 $per month on your subscrption...now you mag says playboy on the cover..has articles written by playboy staff ...so it is playboy but is it the playboy you paid for ?

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by mothelm

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Horusra

Where as now in games only those with crap loads of time can access all the content instead of people with more cash able to access more content.  Face it.  RMT is not worse or better for your limiting content than using time to limit it.  The market is moving away from the time model because there are not enough unemployeed or people with part time jobs to make them enough money.  Instead they are moving to the real market which is casual players with more cash and the desire to see all the content of a game.  Hummm...who would I sell to?

This is all assuming that time is the only factor and not player skills. If RMTs allows you to get bonus, otherwise not available to other people, then it allows someone who has less skills to beat someone with greater skills and thus the outcome is based on RL money and not skills.

I want, regardless of game, that the most skilled person wins and not the one with the biggest wallet.

You assume that items will be sold that allow one to beat others with greater skill.  If the Blizzard vanity pets rise up and squash your character then yes there is a problem.  The slippery slope argument is a very bad argument because you assume something will happen.  Along the same lines lets fight about why tax dollars should not be spent in California because it is going to fall into the ocean one day and it is a slipper slope to build up to much there.  How can you debate something that is not happening, not proposed to happen, only something that might happen the way you describe it.  All you can really discuss is if selling vanity pets is destroying WoW (for example).
 

I am not talking about WoWs RMTs but RMTs in general. WoWs RMT system is in its early stages where it does not affect the ability of your characters.

But it is the first step and no doubt the second step will come sooner or later.

 

Then please name you P2P game with RMT that we are discussing here.  I have not played EQ2 RMT servers do they sell items to out skill someone? 

Your step comment is again assuming again and we have to go back to talking about Cali falling into the ocean and why we should cut them off from tax dollars.  You can not debat something that has not happened or that you have no proof that it is going to happen.  In then end it will come down to "it will not happen" and the reply of "oh yes it will."  Then some how proving God exists and someone is called a Nazi or Hitler enters into the debate.

Have you ever dealt with corprate america?

...they are nothing if not predictable ...trust me if they make even a small amount of money it will grow into the 800 lb gorilla in the room
 

 

companies are nothing if not survivalists.  MMO work on the carrot on a stick formula.  They keep you playing by offering a carrot.  If people got the carrot then they would stop playing.  So no you have to convince me that companies would rather make a quick $10 instead of 5 years of $10 a month.

well now you are just getting mean ...but however...i dont do the carrot on the stick i play b/c i enjoy myself ..i am not a top end raider or end game player i am just your normal hobbiest, So when the fun ends i move to another game and i have played many in my MMo days...in short i am a casual gamer and i have no love for the idea that the death of 1000 cuts of RMT entering a game i choose to play . simple matter is if i order playgirl i expect to get pictures with my articles not pay more for them on top of the articles
 

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Horusra

Where as now in games only those with crap loads of time can access all the content instead of people with more cash able to access more content.  Face it.  RMT is not worse or better for your limiting content than using time to limit it.  The market is moving away from the time model because there are not enough unemployeed or people with part time jobs to make them enough money.  Instead they are moving to the real market which is casual players with more cash and the desire to see all the content of a game.  Hummm...who would I sell to?

This is all assuming that time is the only factor and not player skills. If RMTs allows you to get bonus, otherwise not available to other people, then it allows someone who has less skills to beat someone with greater skills and thus the outcome is based on RL money and not skills.

I want, regardless of game, that the most skilled person wins and not the one with the biggest wallet.

You assume that items will be sold that allow one to beat others with greater skill.  If the Blizzard vanity pets rise up and squash your character then yes there is a problem.  The slippery slope argument is a very bad argument because you assume something will happen.  Along the same lines lets fight about why tax dollars should not be spent in California because it is going to fall into the ocean one day and it is a slipper slope to build up to much there.  How can you debate something that is not happening, not proposed to happen, only something that might happen the way you describe it.  All you can really discuss is if selling vanity pets is destroying WoW (for example).
 

I am not talking about WoWs RMTs but RMTs in general. WoWs RMT system is in its early stages where it does not affect the ability of your characters.

But it is the first step and no doubt the second step will come sooner or later.

 

Then please name you P2P game with RMT that we are discussing here.  I have not played EQ2 RMT servers do they sell items to out skill someone? 

Your step comment is again assuming again and we have to go back to talking about Cali falling into the ocean and why we should cut them off from tax dollars.  You can not debat something that has not happened or that you have no proof that it is going to happen.  In then end it will come down to "it will not happen" and the reply of "oh yes it will."  Then some how proving God exists and someone is called a Nazi or Hitler enters into the debate.

Have you ever dealt with corprate america?

...they are nothing if not predictable ...trust me if they make even a small amount of money it will grow into the 800 lb gorilla in the room
 

So we should cater to them you are saying ?

ahhh one of the lurkers speaks .....i have but one question to the RMT fans

Why do you want to bring money into your videogame world...?

I come to my favortie MMO to forget about money ,IRA's ,taxes ,and all the other nonsense that the "Real World" has in it .

Why do we have to infect our fantasy with reality ...i always thought the point of this was to live a second life so to speak where we got to be who we wanted and accomplish what we wanted..."By the Sweat of our Brow..and the Strength of our Backs"

hello i am returning to Soe games after long break ...tempted into WoW i was.....i am looking for a guild that doesnt mind a newb to EQ2...but not one to MMo's...i am loading the game as i type this and will create toon on oasis

thanks

Ias a rare poster but a avid reader of this forum say this ...after they did it twice with little to no warning ...and then did a very similair thing to another of thier games few years later ...Why should i trust them to not do it again after i have sent 2 years worth of money?....and they learned thier lesson is not an answer ..look at EQ 1 and 2 cash shops noone wanted and were sent in anyway

Simply put i don't trust them anymore so i dont buy there products and i make sure i tell everyone i know not to as well ...this is what happens when you decieve your customer

PS this also means i buy no sony products of anytype ...so after spending thousand of dollars on playstation consoles and games they lost that money to microsoft as well

" Your overconfindance is yor weakness "... (regaurding the mythicial new subs from the NGE)

"There's not enough life on this ice ball to fill a star cruiser".... (server Populations)

Time once again for the deaf person to speak up .... Statements that say things Like "might as well be a NPC" bother me to no end ....MMo's opened a whole new world of talking to people i would have NEVER gotten to speak to in even the most remote ways ...

its theese previous statement that make me want to cry as well when all theese games go to voice chat only i will again be left in a world with only a few voives to be seen

So when you debate theese points of view please realize that the effect are more then more efficient raiding and that personal relanship are built with a keyboard all the time

test

Since i am Deaf and have been so since birth i am unable to join your guild.... hmmm this seems a trifle unfair....

when you consider the fact that i have been a successful raider in games that make WoW look like kiddie land...

and you are saying you cant keep up with chat from 10-40 toons try EQ where your average raid was 60-72 

Amazing i always read this site but i never posted till i read this b/c it simply angered me to the point where i had to speak up

and ohh Btw that the kind of thing that civil right lawsuits start over

Mothelm

Reality is a matter of perception....