I'd rather roll with my 56k and ICQ than with what is going on today.

There are a couple decent sandboxes coming out though. We'll see.

Originally posted by SysFail

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SysFail

 

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because it is make-believe, play, a toy - NOT a game. Roleplaying or make-believe has never been all that popular. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. This is a crude generalization ofcourse, but games that don't have a point other than to "be there and live there" are not as popular as games that give you an objective to accomplish.

 

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

 

You're clearly a WoW player, which is fine, that game has given many newbies the platform to experience MMO's, which of course is a good thing for the genre, but it was never anything unique, as most of its features were taken from MMO's that had already been made, the blizzard developers have even said this themselves.

But players on the whole evolve and its natural for an envoirment that offers freedom, will appeal to those who have ridden the scripted material and feel that need for more, which is a natural human instinct(in most, its evolution after all) to break free of the constraints of whatever it is that constrains them.

So you may be happy in your current form, but such is nature, i'm going to assume that players will enjoy a world that offers more than just a carrot to chase, but instead offer more of the indepth appetites and feelings we have as humans.

Most people actually want to be told what to do, where to go, and how to do it. This is why themeparks are popular. They don't want to think. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want a sandbox. Freedom of choice is what comes to my mind.

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by rojo6934
altering leveling speed with real money is convenience, not advantage. Period.

So if I could pay real money to acquire a max level character in a game, with all the best equipment possible, instantly, that'd just be convenient right?  Not any kind of possible advantage to have all the best everything for a fee, right?

The real convenience is how easy the games make it to purchase the goods they sell in cash shops.  I'm kind of at a loss to understand why reaching goals quicker through payment is not an advantage no matter what the game or systems in place.

..I don't think you get it.

Who is takling about equipement? You reach level cap, you get to do stuff sooner. Big deal. Like I said, it's not an advantage maybe unless PvP, but that can be negated in open world by numbers/better players, and most games if have arena is bracketed anyway for levels.

This whole debate on f2p reminds me of politics. If I get my game the night before you, is it an advantage? If so, in what way? I unlock some guns sooner in multiplayer? I get level 10 before you? Big deal. I still think the majority who whine about it are usually kids.

Why can't I pay for convenience? If you have 8 hours to play and I have 2, why not? What if they limited your time on the game because it wasn't fair? Becaus they would think that's an advantage, which it is since you have more time to play. Things like EXP just close the gap a little.

I bet if I kicked you off your PC after 3 hours because the guy next to you couldn't play any longer, you'd probably get pissed. It's only fair though becuause you have an advantage, you have more time, and that shouldn't be allowed.

Originally posted by Nihilist

There inheretly has to be an element of pay 2 win in order to get people to buy stuff.

The question is what will a standard box price 50-60 bucks + 15 a month buy you in a FTP game?

Usually it is only a fraction of the content.

LoL champions or Planetside 2 Guns cost hundreds of dollars to outright buy everything.

 

The formula seems to be make the game fun in the beginning, then make the grind so unberable that the player is pretty much forced to pay. FTP just ensures the new people will keep coming into the game. I am most of the people who stick around for a while end up paying just as much or more than a standard game.

I don't know prices in PS2, but who is going to buy everything really? Assume you grind half and buy the other half. What's that come to? Factor in if they would've charged you for the actual game so there is 60 bucks worth of stuff.

The majority, the MAJORITY of people will buy maybe a few dollars worth. You're talking about the 1%.

Originally posted by kadepsyson
It's actually amazing me that people aren't able to understand that it's the faster levelling that is the paid advantage, not what is at those higher levels.

You aren't giving an example of it being an actual advantage over someone else. What you are describing is convenience. People in MMOs need to stop competeting with eachother so much (unless PvP of course). A lot really depends on how the game is set up.

What's the advantage outside of maybe PvP? Which nowadays it's bracketed or something anyway, and if it's in open world that can be negated many ways either player skill or numbers, like I said though, depends kind of how the game is set up to take "advantage" of these "advantages".

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by rojo6934

Originally posted by kadepsyson

 

Just because it is silly, or because you consider it to not matter, does not mean it does not provide an advantage.

If two people had the same goal of hitting the cap, one had a paid advantage to accomplish that goal.  It might not matter to you, or you might feel they rushed, but they still paid for an advantage.  It's pretty simple, even if you don't care or don't mind.

i dont want to look like im chasing your posts but your reasoning also applies to your side of the argument. I personally dont use exp potions, why? because theres nothing good at level cap, just boring grind. The fun is in the leveling journey. You say its silly to use exp pots, i think they are silly too (except in the case i mentioned in the other post, the lack of time to play). But using exp potions dont make me more powerful than you so i dont have an advantage, if we were racing to level cap and the first to reach it wins a prize then yeah in that case exp pots give advantage, but there is no race to level cap.

I don't believe I said it was silly.

However, levelling faster by paying money (exp potions) is paying for an advantage.

That's all there is to it.

If you do not use it, or think it's fine, or say there's no actual race, or say it doesn't make someone more powerful, or whatever reason you want, that does not change that it is, in fact, a paid advantage.

The advantage is faster levelling.  How much of an advantage can be debated, but it is still very much a paid advantage.

I believe he was talking to me, however I agree with you. Hitting level cap quicker isn't an advantage in my opinion. To me it just means you went through content faster, no biggie.

If you show up in open world with bow +10000 that I can't get through game, yes it's a problem.

Convenience? EXP boosters, cosmetics, even things you can obtain in game through shop.

Advantage? Everything you can't get in game. If I can buy inventory slot +5, and there is no other way of going about it. That's an issue.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by UOvet

Originally posted by Quirhid

When you go outside tomorrow just asksk someone "What is WoW?" and see what they say. Then you ask them about EVE. I think you'll see where I'm getting. Not sure you can really compare the two. . .

One significant difference between the two is that WoW has succeeded among many competitors while Eve's success is in large part because of the lack of any serious competition. How many players play Eve because it is the only succesful sandbox out right now? -Or that it is the only spaceship/sci-fi MMO out right now?

Sorry, even if I've only played WoW for about 10 minutes and Eve for about 2 years, I'd still give more credit to Blizzard than CCP.

I believe most people play EVE for the sheer fact there is some risk/reward to be honest. I was going to give it a shot for that reason alone, not particularly excited about space sims. The point is though sandbox games can thrive, they don't need 10 million subs. They just need a consistent playerbase that doesn't keep going down.

Why? Because your average sandbox player WANTS to stick around for a long time. They want to be engaged in a new world, not having to roll alts to get some entertainment. They want to play a game for years, not months, and a lot of times with a single character. They dont wan't to rush, they'd rather soak it in and enjoy it, because really, what's the rush?

I don't know man, like I've said (sure you can tell by the name). I grew up playing UO when I was like 15 in 98 for for years. It's what I'm used to, but I also believe it's the better way of doing things (just more openess, sandiness in general). I was never used to going raiding/questing, even DAoC to me was kind of foreign which is why I only played for 6 months (regret that), and I missed out on SWG (another regret).

The whole point about WoW, I just think it did more harm than good to the genre. It opened up some peoples eyes to this genre, at the same time it attracted for every quality MMO player another 100 assholes. Gaming just in my opinion was more fun (and original) when it was considered "nerdy", so like pre 2000ish, because let's be honest, most of us playing MMOs on our 56k back then were pretty nerdy.

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by UOvet

Depends what you value as an advantage. I'm sorry, EXP boosters, convenience stuff, these aren't selling an advantage. I mean, why would you care if I reach level 50 before you. Why do you care?

 

Now, if I can buy Sword of Ass-Kicketh that can't be obtained through games and is 10 bucks, then yes, I have an issue with that.

 

F2P is fine with things like EXP, cosmetics, really anything AS LONG as it can be obtained through game. The only people who are really complaining about micro-trans I believe are kids who really can't buy anything online due to no card or what have you.

 

Not sure how people are in favor of paying 60 bucks, getting boned, and then being stuck 60 bucks out of your wallet. Flip the situation, you try the game for free, can play all you want, spend upwards of 60 bucks if you think the game is worth it. It justifies it because you were likely going to just pay 60 for another game anyway. I dunno, I don't see much of an issue with it if done correctly.

 

We can vote with our wallets, which is what we've been doing anyway, which is why you are now getting COD 55.

So you don't consider reaching higher levels quicker than other people through paying money to be an advantage?

Or do you not care about it that much?

There is a difference.

 

Also, there are plenty of free to play games, and have been for decades, that don't sell advantages.  They don't sell anything, actually.  I used to play a ton of freeware games years ago.

I must have a different mind set. I truely don't see how me reaching 50 before you or anyone else should matter. It doesn't affect you or anyone else really. I've never seen the point in rushing to level cap anyway. Never, I mean, I bought the game, why not enjoy it? I feel people just rush through stuff making it a competetion nowadays between gamers. It's silly.

I blame it on what I call "The Achievement Era", because if you aren't doing it the fastest or first then you are a noob or loser. That's what it seems like to me anyway.

Depends what you value as an advantage. I'm sorry, EXP boosters, convenience stuff, these aren't selling an advantage. I mean, why would you care if I reach level 50 before you. Why do you care?

Now, if I can buy Sword of Ass-Kicketh that can't be obtained through games and is 10 bucks, then yes, I have an issue with that.

F2P is fine with things like EXP, cosmetics, really anything AS LONG as it can be obtained through game. The only people who are really complaining about micro-trans I believe are kids who really can't buy anything online due to no card or what have you.

Not sure how people are in favor of paying 60 bucks, getting boned, and then being stuck 60 bucks out of your wallet. Flip the situation, you try the game for free, can play all you want, spend upwards of 60 bucks if you think the game is worth it. It justifies it because you were likely going to just pay 60 for another game anyway. I dunno, I don't see much of an issue with it if done correctly.

We can vote with our wallets, which is what we've been doing anyway, which is why you are now getting COD 55. It took me a little while, but once you learn life isn't fair it's much better ;p.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by UOvet

Originally posted by Valentina
I don't think themeparks are going to die in favor of sandbox games. We've done that before, the sandbox game basically died out for themeparks. It would be illogical to keep going in the same circle over and over again when they can (and are) making hybrids. One without the other is deficient.

Only because WoW was a fluke that happens every once in a while and people tried to ride the coat tails. They have realized now that isn't going to work. You don't need 10 mill subs anyway, you simply need a consistent playerbase that is going up and not down ala EVE.

What makes WoW a fluke and Eve not a fluke? Maybe they both are flukes, hmm? -Or neither is a fluke...

...does EVE have 10 million subs? You won't see that again..likely. WoW came in at the right time, low barrier entry, with a very solid IP behind it. Look, I was a fan of Blizzard right up untill WoW. I just feel that game brought in a whole generation of crap regarding the players who now run around MMOs to the ideas other companies tried to follow suit.

When you go outside tomorrow just asksk someone "What is WoW?" and see what they say. Then you ask them about EVE. I think you'll see where I'm getting. Not sure you can really compare the two. . .

Originally posted by DamonVile
I haven't seen a good system since SWG. I'm interested in seeing what wildstar does with it. The open world house is the best system but how they'll deal with the problems swg had ( inactive accounts and space ) are still up in the air.

They're housing is instanced so no worry. I'll be watiing for The Repopulation when it comes to housing.

Leave gaming for 5 years. Come back. Basically what I've done. I just think games have become too easy/linear/main stream. It's funny, but gaming I believe was much more enjoyable when it was "nerdy" (pre 2000?). Now, every a-hole is online playing video games and the IQ level has plummeted to cater.

I mean they are patching games a week after release because people complain it's TOO HARD! HA! These extreme casuals bother me to (the phone playing people) who are starting to get loud and the industry feels they have to cater to them. I don't even see the appeal of playing mobile games. How do people have time for that, but not when they get home?  I guess it's good for taking a shit, airpline, car ride or something.

Originally posted by Valentina
I don't think themeparks are going to die in favor of sandbox games. We've done that before, the sandbox game basically died out for themeparks. It would be illogical to keep going in the same circle over and over again when they can (and are) making hybrids. One without the other is deficient.

Only because WoW was a fluke that happens every once in a while and people tried to ride the coat tails. They have realized now that isn't going to work. You don't need 10 mill subs anyway, you simply need a consistent playerbase that is going up and not down ala EVE.

When I hear someone mention "player generated content" to me it doesn't mean creating dungeons or stupid quests for people. What that tells me is they want to bring the glory days of games like SWG/UO back.

You know, when people knew eachother, actually built lasting friendships, create tournaments, the politics that go into sandbox games, player driven economy, some real roleplaying went on. I could go on and on.

The way you fix open world PvP is you just bring back actual GUILD WARS. Where you can actually declare war ala UO, however, the only thing you would have to change is.

1. Allow ONLY only warred guilds to be able to loot eachother. Can fight anywhere within the world. They'd have to fix the blue healer thing though ;D.

This would prevent ganking, and it would be cool to run up on a huge guild war going down right outside the dungeon you were about to enter. You wouldn't have to worry about getting attacked/looted as long as you weren't in either of the guilds fighting obviously. PvE people would be left alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68cqxr2MLn4&feature=player_embedded new trailer

http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/planetside-2-gamescom-it-just-works brief article from Gamescom

OP I think your thread falls on deaf ears to anyone who is 15 or older. They've been done, with success. Too much stuff? Go away.

Since when is Skyrim a sandbox?

UO, SWG and EVE all say hi.

F2P  is great when done correctly. 

Planetside 2 seems to be on the right track along with Guild Wars 2. Most people have bad taste in their mouth from F2P just because most F2P games we are used to are junk.

Well, the minority is what keeps games like EVE going strong and why you see games like SWTOR fail. The "minority" refuses to pay 15 a month and sees F2P being a good thing. The minority doesn't jump MMOs like carnival rides.

Why?

With F2P your game has to be good. Nobody is going to spend money on  shitty game. No more are the days of 60 dollar cash grabs (think D3) and the game turns out to  be shit and you wait months for patche, etc

So, really the majority is killing the genre. This is why you see MMOs how they are now, and why they all go F2P within months. This is also why you are seeing people talk more about sandbox.

Originally posted by MikeJezZ
Hopefully forever. It has all the PvP I have been hoping for for years

Until Planetside 2.

I can see Door Wars getting stale very quickly and the DE..I mean..it's a themepark anyway you slice it. I can only imagine the outcry of lack of skills come a couple months into lauch.