I still have to see another MMORPG creating so many memorable moments, at least I can tell for myself. Was a different time and a different approach to gaming.

I can still enjoy today's modern MMOs, but nothing could even come close to what EQ was for me personally. I am aware that I am sort of glorifying the past here, but well...

There should be no doubt that this game was the reference title of its time.

Didn't read all the eight pages, however the players and the focus of players in MMOs (letting out the RPG here, because the last MMORPG was release quite a while ago) has changed as well.

We went from times where you actually met another player in the wilds and were happy about it as you receive some help in your adventures to times where people just perceive other people they meet by chance as a nuisance and competition. The mentality of players in the genre has changed, however I tend to believe it is not the mentality that has changed, as this is more or less founded and based in the character of a person. It is just that the player base has changed by a lot and players who come into the genre have a different focus for their gaming experience. They don't play games to socialize, they play games for other reasons. This is fine. Nobody can be blamed for playing a game like they desire, the main problem is that this way of playing doesn't fit the way of playing the OP desires, nor is it fitting the way I like to play MMOs.

I found lately that the community in Lord of the Rings Online is pretty sound, so from 10 times I met other players in the wilds, 8 times we formed a group, had a chat, killed our mobs for the quest together and advanced. But then again, this can't be considered representative, it is merely an example of a positive gaming exprience.

All in all there is no solution and no perfect game. You just have to check the market and pick what floats your boat the most. Making compromises is not easy, but unavoidable.

So all in all I agree with the OP and had the same experiences with WoW, but I am trying to see things a bit more objective and tend to believe that people make different experiences and adore the game therefore. It is somehow true however, that the game caters to the fact that socializing is less needed through it's game mechanics, but this is the way MMOs go these days and nobody will stop it, as long as those games create such huge revenue.

Originally posted by Acidon

 

- First character, a druid.  Getting the first self-port spells (WC, NK, BB, ?)

- Getting first group port spells, accidently casting self-port and leaving the group behind

- Being able to cast SoW at 14! (then)

- Buffing anyone and everyone

- Farming hill giants for uber plat

- Finally dinging 30 and being able to meditate without staring at the book (loong time ago)

- Teaching myself to Quad kite. - graduating to quad kiting dwarves in BB ftw!
- Heading back to Rathe mountains to quad kite hill giants for uber plat. =)

- Trading a Sarnak Battle Shield for a Mana Stone.. years later the SBS is worth 500pp, the manastone is worth 500,000pp =)

 

- Dual wielding SSoY's in full crafted (on warrior(that i actually quested for)) in Lake of Ill Omen. Feeling like a God

- wearing an FBSS that dropped in guk.  No stats, crap haste, woot!

- Obtaining my first Fungi Tunic

 

- hitting 60 for the first time

 

- every few months, starting more rumors that Fungi Tunics would be soulbound in the next patch.. raising the price of Fungis =p

- making my first million plat

 

- watching the game turn into hello kitty online after WoW is released. >.>

 

 

EDIT:

- Getting kicked by snakes

I clearly noticed I loved this game at heart, when I had to smile reading this post with every new bullet point. I could add a few things to the list, but I guess this would get too long.

It is amazing how many details players remember when it comes to EQ. I am not sure if this is the same with other games, for me it is for sure not and I played many titles over all those years.

So here is what's great about EQ for me:

- That the game has left stuff to the player to decide and the game didn't decide for the player of where and when to progress, like most modern games do. Shows in many details, but this is more or less sums it up for me.

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

They are ALWAYS getting worse. It doesn't matter what stance you try and take, as you obtain more experience you begin to critique more. Players never settle for "just as good"... it's always got to be better and so even if Blizzard, Turbine, or SOE release a new game that has every bell and whistle available on the market... it will still receive bad marks!

There is no "getting better" until  there is a whole group of games that release with such poor quality that ANYTHING release with a little though would be better... and even then it's only better than that group.

Games will always keep getting worse because you, as a player, keep gaining more experience with the genre... and no development team is a match for your personal taste.

 

So how would you explain that FPS, RTS, Simulators, platforms, and what not, are in general much better now than 10 years ago?

For me it is a matter percepton. When I started MMORPGs I came from playing MUDs, so for me EQ was a MUD becoming even more alive and colorful. Needless to say that I had a blast and so did any other MUD player who tried out EQ back then, at least the ones I have talked to.

However nowadays you compare MMORPGs to video games in general and if you want to reach the mainstream (aka sell a whole lot of copies and subs) you have to make them user friendly and easy to get into, but the same way you remove the challenge bit by bit. Nobody really has to "learn" the game anymore, not saying that you don't need to master it, however.

But if you look deeper into the matter it is the new features making it easier for new players, that destroy the fun and immersion of an ever decreasing group of players, which has played MMORPGs when the genre was young. The wheel is not going to be turned back, so looking at it objectively you can't say that MMOPRGs got worse, because as a matter of fact they didn't. They just evolved into "something" else, which can't be appreciated anymore by the group of people who played the genre already when it was  young. So maybe they got worse for some people, but I would not say they got worse, when looking at it objectively.

Originally posted by leshtricity

I completely disagree with the OP.

MMO's these days are lacking in creativity. I don't give a damn about twinking, or using game mechanics/exploits to do special things. I care about doing something different. I will not ever play an MMO which requires me to kill spiders right from the get go. I am so done with that crap.

I know the EQ/WoW formula is addictive, but can we please move on? And I'm also sick of classes- at least all the stereotypical ones. Tank, healer, damage...seriously, that's been around since the 70's and we can't get past it? What the hell?

Unfortunately the only MMO's that are really exploring truly new ideas are extremely small and lack media coverage. EVE Online gets some press I suppose, but what about Wurm Online? There are a handful of small-time MMO operations that are on the right track, but they suffer because they don't have a major publisher or studio behind them.

Well, I agree with the OP, but what I don't understand is why you call creative ways of killing mobs actually "using" what the game mechanics have to offer in a more creative way than others an exploit.
 

Examples:

Feign Death was never planned by the devs to splitpull mobs, it was meant as a method of escaping a dangerous and deadly situation, however players discovered the possibilities that FD offered and made FD pulling an art form over time. It was not easy to do it properly - in some places - and it was never addressed by devs to be adjusted, hence it was not an exploit, so from what "smelled" like an exploit in the first place we had the evolution to an important part of strategy for game progression.

Kiting was a hard thing to do and, by all means, even though you could have been a kickass kiter, you still had the chance to get killed by a mob, being able to drop you in one or two swings. Kiting was all about risk and reward in my eyes. You took the high risk of being slaughtered by a baddie, but if you dropped him you felt rewarded and probably got some good stuff from it as well.

I never understood why devs of more recent games tried to remove kiting from the game. It just felt and still feels wrong that it is not possible anymore.

If you want games where all ppl run around like robots and do the same stuff over and over using the same mechanics, well then fine, because that is what is called boring. In the end there are always those creative players who will analyze and optimize their character to the max and find "unique" ways to do things more efficiently or even on their own. And I don't mean exploits, that is a different story. I am just talking about using the game mechanics offered to their maximum and if other people think that this and that is an exploit, then they maybe should try harder in some cases and work on their gameplay to achieve the same. I am aware that there is a thin line to an exploit,. however the things like kiting and FD pulling are no exploits.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I miss the beta when there was one server and Antonica and CL were cloned 6 times and so was everyother zone in the game. I was running around the cities and they were packed, like that little hobbit starter area had like 20 people in it. I'd go into the areas surrounding and they were packed full of people doing quests and grouping. Then I'd go into CL (on my evil char) and there were so many people there you'd get groups very easily for the content you wanted to do and the forced grouping wasn't a problem because there was enough people to make it fun that you played all the content. The quests in Everquest 2 were amazing aswel when you were with a group because they didn't feel like your standard boring quests you'd get in other mmorpgs at the time. I was in a group from levels 10 right the way to 20 and we did the armour quests. Then you go into Nek or TS and the game fell apart because them zones sucked but Nek had an amazing instance.

My point is an mmorpg is only fun when each zone is populated and you can find groups to do all the content. Otherwise you feel lonely and right now I can't find groups because the game has become so broken with all the new starting areas and how the population died because of WoW but theres still too many servers.

I could sit there and solo but whats the point if I'm not having fun? I miss getting a group all the time and seeing zones full of life and being scared of dying so the group always tried their best and played good cause we didn't want XP debt.

I understand your point, but the scenario you create is just the case when a game freshly launches. EQ2 has now been around for quite a while and people have almost exclusively highly advanced characters. Guild halls adding to the ghost town feeling, but the game is that way. Maybe I go a bit over the top there, but EQ2 has become a game for raiders and people who like challenging high end group content. In my opinion there is no healthy line of progression from Level 1 to 80 anymore. As people pointed out, leveling is so easy now, most people just PL their alts to 60+ and there is not enough influx of new subs.

I can tell that first hand as I myself took the adventure of starting with EQ2 again rolling a new char. I was lucky I had a bunch of friends joining as well, so we all started from zero and reached Level 80 a few weeks ago and dig into more serious stuff. I couldn't actually believe how quick exp floats in now.

So in a nutshell, I think you need to look for another game, because the scenario you created in your post will never happen in EQ2 again, server merges or not. If you merge servers today you will just have a combined load of highly advanced characters who then will clutter up on the high end raid mobs, which are contested. It is just the way the game went, if it is good or bad everyone can decide for themselves. I am saying that totally unbiased, but I like the game as I can pick many activities I wanna do each day, as there might be no game around with that much content to offer. But again, if I wouldn't have had my friends joining with me and do the 1-80 Journey together, I prolly would have quit already.

Originally posted by Rekindle

...you.

 

If there's any game you should not be believe the hype  / anti hype with Vanguard.

first impressions mean a lot and there are a lot of people with first impressions a year old continuing to comment on this game as if it were the present state.

The best way to determine if this game is for you or not is to form your own opinion and play the trial. having just came back after leaving in beta i'd say the trial is a pretty good example of how the rest of the game plays out for me (stlil only mid level chars granted).

/fanboiism off.

Come here if you want to hear people who like the game exchange dialogues back and fourth with people who dont. The converstaions become akin to how red is better than orange. but I think a lot of you will be plesently suprised like i was.

Quoted for truth. I will never understand  how people make comments on an MMO they haven't played for a long time. Like no other genre, MMOs are always caught in the flow, as I would call it, so you might be talking about a totally different game if you still transport your opinion from a year ago.
 

I agree on the trial, it is pretty comprehensive and shows about everything the game has to offer in "low level" state naturally. All those features play out differently in the end game.

I have been quitting back in the days due to the mass of bugs, returned and gave it a second look. Been playing ever since and still like it, but there is still a lack of content noticeable, especially for people in hardcore guilds which work through content a lot faster than the casual gamers.

I wanted to quote the OP for truth for every word he wrote, but the post is too long :)

No seriously, I monitored the same thing over quite a few years in every game I played. The social factor decreased and decreased. Nowadays you have games like AoC and to some extent WoW that play like "checklists". People in those games are socializing just if they have to and for their own motives.

Please don't confuse socializing with grouping, because grouping in AoC and WoW is mostly just for a few minutes to kill a mob which needs more than a solo player to be defeated.

While it is true that the community is made by the people, it is also true that different aspects in the newer generation of games is creating the problems the OP mentioned.

You have to look at the history this genre has gone through and where MMORPGs have their roots. On the computer based side the originate from MUDs, text based adventure games. For the first generation of played MMORPGs were such a fascinating experience, because their beloved MUDs came now with a graphical representation, but in their core they still were MUDs. Games, which were open and with freedom of where to face next. World immersion was the main focus. Due to that fact people had to interact with each other, because as a single character you would not get very far in games like EQ or DAoC, or any other title of this generation.

Nowadays, those games are designed as "video games" and are attractive to a different audience as well. The combination of game features and that audience make today's gaming communities. So yes, communities are a design choice, because with the game you create you know more or less before which audience you will attract. I mean you don't open a restaurant with "haute cuisine", planning to attract people who enjoy hot dogs. When a project like an MMORPG is planned developers are well aware of the fact that they will attract this and that type of player.  

I would go for Vanguard as the best PvE game out there right now. That said it is not for the light-hearted even thought they adjusted the drop rates and the overall tedious aspect of the game a lot. What I like best is that you can head any direction at any time and you don't have to follow a certain route to progress.

If you are strictly into PvE, VG is worth a try for sure.

I have to say Funcom, because in the end SOE is not so bad if you look at the issue objectively.

SOE still has the most high nosed and at the same time incompetent customer support, however they make their games stay and are not hasty in decisions, which means a lot nowadays, where games are dying left and right.

It would have been a very easy move to close VG for example, as they have another fantasy MMORPG in EQ II, which is doing quite well. Instead they kept it alive and today VG can at least survive on it's own. SOE realized that there is a huge difference between EQ II and VG and the communities of players. So both games can co-exist.

I can't comment on who is responsible for dumbing down SWG, SOE or LucasArts or both, but money makes the world go round, so I guess if they made it commercially more successful they are right, aren't they? I agree that for us gamers this is not always the best, but we kind of have to accept that it is first and foremost the monetary aspect which leads companies to decisions they make. We accept it for everything else, so why do we complain when it comes to games?

I'm one of the "comebackers" as well and I have to admit that this game turned into a real gem. Played a rogue to 50 after release, kept on going despite all bugs, but quit in the end as it just has been grind after grind to keep people busy until APW was ready. So I decided to not pay anymore and return when the game is properly fixed.

Nowadays I can say that it is without a doubt the best and most fun MMORPG on the market for my likings. It has transported much of the old EQ mixed up with some fresh ideas and a complete new approach with the diplomacy sphere, which is totally unique to the genre.

Vanguard does not open to you during the first hours of play, which is like it should be actually. If I don't feel limited in the first hours of gameplay, how much fun could I expect from the rest of teh game. VG is not for the ligh hearted and today's generation of MMO players like to get things catered to them without feeling the urge to explore themselves. VG has a different apporach and requires the player to be pro-active to achieve things. Definately the number one choice for old school MMO-players who have a focus on PvE. If you are PvP-based, VG is not really for you, but for PvE and complex raid encounters there is nothing better at the moment.

Originally posted by AveBethos

People preaching how good Vanguard is right now are almost comical.

That game is still as bad as AoC and has even less players.  1 year after launch and Vanguard is still in the bottom 10 of all MMO games out there.

Only games like MxO, SWG, PotBS, Tabula Rasa, and the like are WORSE than Vanguard.

It's better than it was a year ago but the game is still very much dead and isn't going to get drastically better. 

Comical to me is when people just browse a forum and try to make a semi objective comment on something they have no clue about.

Seriously, why are people always posting untrue facts like this, with maybe haven seen the game 6 months ago for the last time or something similar. Nobody forces you to like the game, but if you state hard facts like this you should be able to back them up with something. I don't talk about rocket science as well, as I have no clue about it.

On top you foresee the future of the game as well based on your wrong facts from above.  It is fine to post your opinion and that you don't like the game, but if you judge it and first foremost judge the people who post about it you should bring something more to the table than saying what you say.

Trying to give a reason for each, and could possibly rant on forver, but trying to keep it simple.

World of Warcraft - for having no soul and being just a patchwork of former ideas, combining them into one (commercially successful) package. The good part is that it keeps the communities of other games sort of clean...

Age of Conan - for wasting this great license. There is so much great lore in Howard's world but the game plays like a "checklist" with no challenges at all. Everything is dull and gets repetitive as hell. Graphics aint enough, to make it a good game, still aren't...

All other games I played were fun in one or the other way so for really bad games which totally were no fun to me, personally I only have those two.

I only wanna rate games where I have reached the endgame and experience the high end content, therefore I can't judge a few, as it would be not fair.

Originally posted by ethion

Originally posted by page

PvP, PvE, RvR, good or bad graphics, It will not matter for a grand opening of a popular game to be released, people are carious and will leave a game at least temporarily anyway.

However some may wait a few weeks after a release if they have the will power, but most don't.

 

Maybe some people will but I think it will be less then you might expect from Vanguard.  Now Wow I'm expecting will see a lot of people at least trying the game unless it gets some bad reviews etc.  If it is decent I'd expect a big chunk of Wow's player base to jump and the same for AoC.  The vanguard/eq2 communities I believe will be far less affected.

True facts. I even think that for some players the game is not the most important component, but the community is. For my likings VG and EQ2 are by far the best around community wise. Mature, respect- and helpful people. Sure there are exceptions, but by far less than in any other game I've played and I've played quite a few...

For the community reason I think Vg and EQ2 players mostly know exactly what they want from a game, so they can't be attracted that easily by new titles. There is a very strong core of subscribers in VG for example which stuck with the game through all bugs and bad times, no matter what.

Originally posted by page

I have to add something else. Think about this !

With Warhammer's release, good or not.  Vanguard's population will drop very low during Warhammer's grand opening, making Vanguard un-playable  ( for me, no people no play ).

I think I have to disagree, because in my opinion the targetted audience of Warhammer and Vanguard don't match. People who enjoy Vanguard will most likely not enjoy Warhammer and vice versa. So the drop in subscriptions will be temporarily, if there will be one at all.

As another poster in this thread said already, the fubared release of AoC made VG stronger and not weaker. The very same could happen when Warhammer will launch.

I played Vanguard from release and quit it due to running out of content for my char after 2 months. Returned now and am impressed of how the game improved. Still not brillant but a lot better than it used to be.

Originally posted by Kaylin

I resubscribed to Vanguard 1, 5 months ago and rolled on Halgard.
The place can feel deserted because it is a huge world and players are widely spread out.
And most definatly some dungeons/quest area's are more populair than others I have noticed.
There are enough players around to keep things going, but it's a close call I must admit. And most definitly for the patienced of heart to deal with it. If everyone has the attitude of leaving because of a low population the game wont improve for sure. There is a lot of solo content to plow through and the dungeons are fun enough to make it all worth while imo. Yyes when you find a group ofcourse ; ) but for the populair places like Trengal keep there are several a day.

My problem atm is: I hit lvl 34 yesterday and I am in an area atm where I have tons of group quests. But the place is the complete underdog. No one goes there, knows about it or is interested, The only dungeon people between lvl 31-39 seem to know/care about is Vol Tuniel. Dargun's tomb f.e. is a wonderful and fun dungeon, 90% of the players never heard about it, skips it... In a way it is nice there are so many hidden dungeons with the only npc's that have anything to do with it hidden inside and no outside npc's refering to it (afaik). But having to advertise this dungeon as worthwile as fun to a whole server with hardly any reply is a sad thing.
I have to skip tons of non dungeon groupcontent because finding someone on the exact same is a very small chance and than the chains are never that long tbh.  I remember in LOTRO it was insanely more difficult, chains went on forever and than you would come to a certain stage that finding a group for it was 1% chance. That made me quit the game eventually..

I hope it doesn't come that far with Vanguard, I am still enjoying it and quiete optimistic. I hope the new upgrades will make it more populair again, it's a decent mmorp worth playing, eventhough its flaws.

Greets

 

I know Darguns Tomb for instance and it is a very good place, apart form the usual level tracks. That's what makes it attractive. Why not convince your group of going there? Sometimes people just need a little push, etc...

Darguns Tomb can be nasty with a pick up group though and I think that is what most people think and they don't even consider crawling a vast and deep dungeon like Darguns Tomb with a pick up group. All I can say is that most ppl I met so far were really decent.  

On the other hand: Of what use are games like AoC where you can solo 75% of the crap and servers are corwded, but actually nobody os socializing at all? Ever noticed the difference between an AoC and WoW group compared to a group in VG? VG groups are generaly more commited. Its not only baout groups, its about quality of groups. VG isnt doing that bad for that matter, even though a small infusion of population would be good. The soon to be release trial island might bring a new rush of players combined with resubcribers form the old days.

It's a classy game, would be too bad to see it go downhill. At this moment, teh richest and deepest "non-linear" MMORPG on the market. 

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by Slampig

You are going to believe what you want to believe. Why bother even posting if all you are going to do is bash?

I don't see the point.

 

No, I was looking or an honest answer. It's obvious that there is too much 'noise' and consequently I can't find an honest answer.

And you're right, I should't ask something like this on a forum because people apparently can't be honest one way or the other.

But pretending the game is doing great and recommending people resub when it's a forgotton wasteland is kinda messed up imo.

It is low you are right and objective people like me already admitted that, but it is far from a wasteland. Hell, what do you want? WoW-situation, with people piling up everywhere and you wait 30 mins to kill a quest mob? In VG you actually are happy to meet people passing by. That's immersion in some way. In a vast fantasy world "central station"-like places are not fitting...

Finding groups is about intiative as well. I play on Halgar (Euro PvE) and as I said, one line in regionsay is enough and I have a group 5-10 minutes after I log in, if I want to and try for it that is. This goes true for 38 lvls of gameplay so far.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Alright, someone convinced me to come take a look back and since I could for free for a month or w/e, I did.

Anyhow_, the server pop is much too low (lvl 33) to do anything worthwile, and it's not that there are no people around, just way too little to get anything more than 1 or 2 groups going around my lvl on the whole server.

I feel bad for whoever desinged this content since it's just all empty with quests and mission and what not, catered to small or larger groups, but noone is there..it's just all deserted..empty..a traveler passes by but they're lvl 50 or too low.

Anyway, the game is ok, it's not great, but ok. What's not ok is that there is noone around to play with almost and that just hurts the game a lot.

I don't think they can merge servers anymore and the population doesn't seem to be increasing at all.

So my experience is that it's not worth to come back because there are too few players and there isn't anything the game can do about that, the reputation of Vanguard is bad that I can't make anyone even log on to help with quests or to play for free.

That is strange. I came back as well due to the free month, giving the game another chance after putting my lvl 50 rogue to the shelf about 8 months ago.  Started a new char and never had any problems finding a group to tackle content. Reached LvL 38 with a new toon and there were always people. I don't want to break a lance for this game as I really was angry at what it was after launch, but I really have to say I enjoy what it is now.

The pop seems a bit low, that's true, but not anywhere close to not find someone. Mostly one line in regionsay is enough and you get like 4-5 replies almost immediatly. So no, my expereince after returning was the total opposite of what the OP witnessed. On top, most people I met were really decent folks and knew how to play their toons, with the one or the other exception. But really not as bad as in other games where you find tons of greedy and clueless people. The community just rocks in VG. And sometimes it is even good to be the only group in the chunk, as you can tackle the stuff as you wish and dont have to compete.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Ok -

Let's get one VG thread right for once.

I meant this to be a thread where people exchanged ideas on quick lvling routes they had taken through VG. A reference for folks.

Please let it stay on topic.

Please if you want to discuss whether or not VG has an end game or whether or not they borked Rangers, start a thread.

 

If we put forth an effort, we can actually have a productive forum.

Or you could prove you are all malcontents and bitch, thus making this a archetypical mmorpg thread and furthering my resolve to stop using it as any sort of reference or forum to communicate with fellow gamers in a positive manner.

People bitch about communities in games.

The worst by far is the community here.

I agree. Different people have different approaches on games and if one want to take the fast level route, he will have reasons for it as the OP does obviously. On top APW is very rich content and needs quite some time to finish. So yes, the game has one raid zone, but it's rich in content. And yes, therefore the game has endgame content. 

On topic: With the free month I started a new toon myself, coming back from a very long break. I did the HL and I would say to finish it including the weapon you ill need a very good group of lvl 20s to do so. It is not easy at late teens, early 20s I would say. Therefore I would put the HL rather in the range of 15-24. 10-20 seems a bit too early, especially a level 10 would have no dice there I guess. I duoed everything but the weapon quest with a bard friend, myself being a cleric. We did it around lvl 22-23 iirc. The weapon quest seems harsh though if you are lvl 20 (untwinked of ocurse, how it should be), fighting lvl 25 4dots.

I am reading the quest text always, as depending on the game it will have valuable information. Quests, which can be done successfully without reading the text are a result of bad game design. Mostly of the character "Kill 20 moles", etc...

Mind numbing and very uncreative. I like games which put some effort into thoughtful stories and quests that unfold in a more epic scenario and where the quest text is actually worth to be read.

Those are role playing games and they are about a stories, legends and epic battles, but sadly many developers don't care anymore, which originates from players not caring, because if players would care, most likely devs would care.