WoW will NOT last another 20 years.. i mean come on, which uber fan thought this one up?

It won't be solely down to any specific game released, it'll simply be down to people getting bored with it over time and because of tech advances and other such things.

@those who will comment about my "get bored of it" statement... people have been getting bored of it for the last 2 years or so and either leaving completely, sticking around till they find something else or by just popping on it from time to time.

to those that have used others as examples and are putting down the OP just because of his age i have this to say. look where Harley Davidson started? small garden shed, bikes are world famous now and a wonder to own. where did wright brothers start? garden shed yet again, now look at all the planes in the world and what they've led to..

Good luck Op, i wish you the best and hope thigns pan out for you.

Originally posted by Eronakis

To me, the veteran mmo players are being segratated because of the new design and philosophy of the new age of mmos. There are four major aspects that veterians are looking for that can't be found within new titles.

 Without sounding offensive the things below are what some people are looking for but not all Veterans, these are the things YOU would like.

A: Challenge/Strategy --- Simply speaking I am not talking about player min and maxes (linear combat). I am talking about non linear combat where the AI adapts to your actions in combat. Where you don't have access to all of your abilities at one time. Where a player must think and become a tactician to outwit and out perform their opposition. The combat pace of this philosophy will be along the lines of medium. Medium combat pace is not fast nor slow. Combat pace can be fast or slow depending on the wisdom of the player using the combat mechanics. There should be a nice consistent flow of player input.

 This sort of thing would be nice, however there are more people who complain about things than there are those that actually play the game for what it is. unfortunately the complainers are the ones most companies listen to and therefore changes happen all the time. can't win.

B: Community --- This entity of game design is being negated. Mmo's are becoming instanced lobbies where solo gameplay is rewarded as opposed to grouping gameplay. There are many aspects that could strengthen a community. Grouping is one major aspect. Forced grouping is one attribute that has helped community. However, I don't believe in forced grouping nor strickly solo content. I believe you should have the option to do either.

I too prefer an option of what i'd like to do in games i choose to buy and pay a sub for, however i must say that this above section you put is a bit false m8, games cater to the raiders (groupers) by design, most games are item specific and without the so called uber gear from group raids you may as well scream out "i don't want to be competative" 

However, grouping should be immensly rewarded versus solo content. Penalties can tie into community vigor because it helps players work together so they can muff those penalties. Grouping enhances a server reputation which is a good and bad thing. This works well because you know who to group with and who not to group with. 

 Why should grouping be rewarded more than solo players? i see grouping and community as 2 entirely different things. you can be a part of the community without ever grouping.

C: Longevity --- This one may not please many but it's not what your thinking. I am talking about down time between combat. Where players can take strides within their adventures and take breaks. Longevity also enchances the community principle because in down time you can converse within your group. Who knows, you may find a good friend. I still have some good friends I still keep in touch with from EQ because of grouping.

I don't personally pervieve Longevity as being connected with the community, to me Longevity means that i continue to enjoy the game i play and pay for and for this everyone is different in what they view as enjoyment.

Longevity also can be considered on how long it takes you to progress to "end game". I would propose that the majority of verterian mmo gamers are not there to race to the end game but rather enjoy the journey.

 This i agree with, the journey is just as enjoyable if not more so than when you reach so called "end game". I for one do not race to max level, this is one of the reasons i missed out on being elder jedi in SWG, i was enjoying the game for what it was and playing various combinations before i started the path to Jedi.

D: Exploration --- There has been some titles that focused on exploration. Instances are blighting the exploration of mmo worlds. However, I do see the other side of the coin where instances are a good thing. If I had to choose, and speak for the veteran community, instances should be omitted because it takes away from the immersion of the world. Instances also create contingencies for players to feel like after a few runs they have to blow through it. Makes it feel more like a job rather than a dangerious dungeon that should be explored.

I'm going to use my SWG experience again here and say that it is possible for both instance and open world to be used in creating a solid exploration experience. The reason for this is although SWG is/was open world it was still instanced in a way, you passed the boundary of each instance whenever you launched to space, changed planet etc.

Another aspect is exterior exploration. I truly believe a huge seamless world should be the standard for world building. This captivates the player to feel as if they are in a world. A lot of mmo titles are failing to make the world alive and enriched with lore. Veterian players love to feel rewarded for exploration.

This i agree with but in order to satisfy those who enjoy exploring (myself included) most games would have to be extremely huge, i mean at least 10x bigger than what they are now, specifically for fantasy games with only the one world. This i don't see as doable without it being sectioned off, or instanced, otherwise the server load would be too great and the game would encounter massive failings such as downtimes or extreme lag.

-----------

All of these things I have listed are principles that the verterian mmo gamer is looking for. This does not mean the design and philosophy has to take a step back but rather focus on those four with innovative ideas. I have a lot of the preproduction done for my mmorpg design. This game will be for the veterian players and new age gamers who are sick of the design that has been spewing out. All four of these principles I have taken into consideration and will be implemented. There is a market for the veterian players. It's larger than most expect. It's there and I wil grasp it and won't let go. To fortify this, a smooth launch and being loyal to the fan base will be essential keys to success.

 

I should also state that there are two types of verterian mmo players. Themeparks (EQ, DaOC) and Sandbox (AC and UO). These four principles can be used in any type of mmo design. I will say that I am more of an old school EQ player so that should tell you what type of design I am fond of.

 The parts i've wrote explain another side to things but in a way agree with what you say to some degree.

To be honest i was hoping for something similar to a lightsaber that you craft after some kind of training and the crystal is attuned to you and grows in strength as you level or something, the hilt itself can be upgraded in parts and thats where you get your defensive or offensive stats from.

+1 for none of the above seeign as there isn't an option.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

MMOs: Gameplay <> Graphics.

You are going to play these things potentially for years. You can't slack on graphics. They are as much of an immersion killer as anything else.

If the game looks crap out of the box, what about 3-4 years in the future? Hideous.

Just saying.

Also, gameplay can be improved, graphics are based on the engine. You can do little improvements here and there (LOTRO DX9 > DX11) but that only brings the game from crap in 2007 to crap in 2010. It's only there to keep the status quo if anything.

 Guess the section i highlighted explains WoW...

PS: just to clarify, i don't like WoW, however it is a good example of gameplay over graphics years from launch.

personally i'd prefer a developer to work on the actual gameplay more than the artwork and graphics, means the game will be more enjoyable instead of just a pretty looking waste of space.

this debate will always go back and forth with no end. all we're doing is voicing our own opinions on things.

here's mine

LotRo and other so called Free To Play games are actually Pay as you play. Free to Play is a false advertisement for them, LotRo especially. I played prior to it going PnG and there is a difference between subbing then and subbing now, i had a discussion about this on another thread and people were kidding themselves saying it was exactly the same.

Originally posted by Volkmar

Originally posted by Obidom

Are they your first beta?

in teh past 2 years or so i ahve beta tested the follwoing games

Darkfall, Mortal Online, Champions Online, StarTrek Online, Perpetuum, Final Fantasy 14 amongs lots more.

and what have I learnt?

 

That what is posted in the forum is no true reflection of the actual game, that whatever you get promised for launch is merely hype to boost sales, that the games will launch when the money men say it will, irrespective of if its actually ready or not.

 

The only game I have beta tested that delivered what it said on the Tin is Perpetuum

Just wanted to point out that the OP is referring to what TESTERS posts in those forums, not the DEVS.

While I can understand that DEVS post might very well be a "it will be in release but not here" kind of post, I doubt the testers would be complaining about something that is not in the beta at the moment.

Still, if the OP has not access to the SW:ToR beta forums, how can you check that there instead is not full of people complaining about long cut scenes and that they cannot cut the dialogues short?

We have had some of those complaining on this very forum. I personally appreciate the slower pace of Voice Overs, but I am sure not all will agree ^^

 i'm not in beta for anything at moment, but i'm pretty sure that for SW:tor a release said cut scenes could be skipped and read later in players log.

To be honest i don't blame the FTP developers or the developers of P2P games that add cash shops, i blame the players who actually spend the money. Now fair enough it's their money and they have the right to spend it on what they want, however, what they don't seem to realise is that they are the ones bringing the MMO industry down.

FTP is NOT truelly free to play, as a previous poster has said it's Pay as you Go. This is because the cash shops contain the items people actually want or need in order to progress in the game or to be competative. Lets take a look at something here, standard so called FTP game, zero cost to purchase, zero sub fee, people think it's a bargain and in a lot of cases enjoy the game for what it is, a few weeks or maybe months down the road they realise they want something that someone else has and upon finding out it's a shop item only they buy said item, after the first purchase they get hooked and end up spending a fair amount in the cash shop over time. It's the same with P2P games that add a cash shop, SWG is a prime example of this model, because some of the best stuff is added to the TCG random item cards, stuff that players have wanted added to the basic game for years, people will buy the cards hoping to get the item. People used to whine about the TCG when it was first brought out and now they spend £20-£50 a month buying cards hoping to get the items on top of the £9.49 a month sub fee. FTP (Pay n Go) is no different, people will and do pay for things and in most cases they spend more per month than what is the standard monthly fee for P2P. Developers just capitolise on this because they know people will spend the money if they put the option there.

And thats where the problem lies, the players who spend the money giving the devs the wrong impression of what the majority of MMO players want.

Lord of the Rings is another good example of a bad so called FTP model, fair enough the option is there to sub but you still don't get as much as what you used to unless you spend extra. yet again, you pay the sub and still pay extra.

I'm into a bit of everything in MMOs i played and out of those i've spent some time in here's what i think of them.

SWG - Still the best crafting system in any MMO, sadly the economy is dead due to the drops that have been added over time since late 2005 and the TCG stuff. PvP is fun. PvE features are pretty good, story to kick start you (Legacy quests, some people hate it for some reason but to a new player it's pretty good) plus the legacy can provide you with some rewards for various things, many who do it prefer to store the items and use as house decor.

LotRo - used to be good PvE content and good overall gameplay (can't comment now as it's all changed since going "FTP" (yeah right). Crafting i used to enjoy Farming, Prospector and Forester (over 2 characters), basically i gathered and treated/smelted and grew in order to sell to those vocations that couldn't get their own raw materials. broke down though it's still a gather and slap together system.

Age of Conan - Once you get into it it can be pretty good PvE, can't comment on PvP as never did any. Crafting is very similar to all other MMOs, gather and slap together.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Regarding the old games, they changed them, trying to make them more casual, more WOW like in many cases, ruining what made them great for those of us who enjoyed their original incarnation.

 this says it all for me, my first MMO was SWG early to mid 2005, i had a good 4 - 6 months of absolute love for the game before the NGE hit which changed the game, not as much as what people initially think but it was the first step towards the junk it is today, a repeat of all the other MMOs out there. very similar with Lotro, i played it for a year and then they decided to go FTP and made a load of changes as well. For me it's change that has killed my love for mmo's...

I tend to not bother with voice chat in MMO's, i do on occasion jump into a private server for close friends (3-5 people and we all know each other from r/l) but thats about it. however i do use voice chat when i'm able to for my FPS clan, again we've known each other for years and get along well and we have strict rules in place. so i'd have to say i'm 50/50 about Voice Chat.

This is probably way off mark and although you said you like exploration and such what i'm about to suggest contains none really.

Have you thought about putting MMO's to a side for a bit till something comes out that really catches your eye, to ease your PvP thirst till then you could do what i have done and play FPS online games such as CoD:Black Ops, CoD4 and BF:BC2. now i know these aint MMOs but like i said, they're keeping me occupied till something comes out that catches my eye without putting sub money into something i won't stick with.

Originally posted by mehoron

Originally posted by Antaran

Sounds like the U.S is still trying to take over the world. Now i'm British born and bread from a very long line leading back to early 19th century before anyone starts to think anything else. Websites hosted outside the U.S are the responcibility of their own country to govern, if the U.S thinks it can dictate it's actions and beliefs on others then it makes the U.S very much the same as the Terrorists who try to impose their religeon and beliefs on others through their actions.

Now this site me be based in the U.S and i may get banned from this site for saying this but the U.S Government can kiss my fat hairy arse if it continues to think it rules the world. just remember where you came from, colonials from various parts of the world, the only true american people are the Native Indians that got screwed over by the U.S government.

 

Flame away colonials...

Yea, enjoy your speed cameras, intrusive government, extreme gun control, high taxes on everything especially petrol, and all the cameras on every street corner in london, as well as constant police patrols. All that stuff, doesn't exist in america. Why? Rednecks.

Rednecks have guns and so does everyone in the states. So if the government gets too in our face about stuff it's our constitutional right to bear arms against our own government. Which is nifty actually! It keeps the power in the peoples hands so to speak.

Now, when you commit a crime in the UK they don't chase you down, no no, they come in through your front door at night and arrest you. So you enjoy the UK, and I'll enjoy my privacy and guns.

But no, this is going to hit the supreme court and get ruled out probably the same day.

 just to clarify the highlighted part.. what happens if someone bears arms against your ruling government? there is no takeover or anything else, the said person is shot dead or arrested and then giving death penalty..  so much for your piece of paper, it's not worth the security costs used to protect it.

if your based in england m8 try looking up www.cclonline.com they do some very good prices and they deliver, choice of pre built to your specs or just parts delivered for you to build.

Sounds like the U.S is still trying to take over the world. Now i'm British born and bread from a very long line leading back to early 19th century before anyone starts to think anything else. Websites hosted outside the U.S are the responcibility of their own country to govern, if the U.S thinks it can dictate it's actions and beliefs on others then it makes the U.S very much the same as the Terrorists who try to impose their religeon and beliefs on others through their actions.

Now this site me be based in the U.S and i may get banned from this site for saying this but the U.S Government can kiss my fat hairy arse if it continues to think it rules the world. just remember where you came from, colonials from various parts of the world, the only true american people are the Native Indians that got screwed over by the U.S government.

Flame away colonials...

Originally posted by Koujow

May haps I am easy to impress or my views are obscured, but I am confused. I keep seeing a lot of people causing all kinds of grief about this game. I haven't played in the beta (and I remember the fiasco that day was. I rofl'd at all the QQ posts), but unlike most posts I keep reading, I am steadily increasing in excitement with every new press release or leak.

Thats why I am asking, did I miss something? Or are people just causing problems? I technically could find something to get angry about (I was told you could tame Rancors in Star Wars Galaxies! Why not in this game! :O ), but the game looks good. Or maybe I am blinded by the glow of lightsabers and blasters (in which case, those bright lights will blind me soon! X_X ).

/discuss

 To be honest from the negativity that i've seen it's mostly from those who prefer PvP, Sandbox, over the top realistic graphics or simply those who are seriously disturbed and just enjoy trolling for the sake of it.

As MANY people have said in many different threads, everyone enjoys different things and not every new game released will appeal to them, so they spit crap about it just because they can.

in my personal opinion i think bioware are doing things right with how they're designing the game, they are bringing back the RPG element which got lost a long time ago.

i don't know about anyone else but i pre ordered a long time ago back when play.com said november 2011 release, i got an email last month stating release date had changed and it is now 25th March 2011.. game.co.uk has it listed as 21st March 2011.. to be honest i'd like to see it out this date, just because of the lack of released info and such doesn't tell us how far along the game actually is....